Neo vs. Luke Skywalker

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
He couldn't, because only Neo controls the Matrix, and by definition, the "force" would be something created to exist inside of it, since it is a force, not reality itself. Neo manipulates the Matrix because it is a program, not because it's a reality and open to anybody with reality warping skills. It's his to control and his alone, or someone else with the same access, Luke is not one of those. He's just a man, not a carrier of the program.

So Neo would control the force also, he could remove it from existence if he wanted. If this fight were in the Matrix that is.

-AC

Here is how the thread starter started the thread:

Neo vs. Luke Skywalker

first this is neo with his matrix powers

second, luke has no way of harnessing anything in the matrix to amplify his own powers, he only has his own as demonstrated in the movies

third, neo cant erase luke from the matrix

He said Neo cannot erase Luke from the Matrix, but he NEVER stated that they were indeed IN the matrix.

It was only after several pages that he came back and claimed that they are in fact in the matrix. Pretty convenient.

And as far as Neo erasing the Force from the Matrix, the force is created by life, it is, in essence, life itself. Neo would have to erase all life from the Matrix in order to erase the force from the matrix.

He can alter and edit anything he wishes. In the Matrix, the force would simply be a program, so he could remove it and replace it with something else. He decides what succeeds and fails.

He could still remove the force from the Matrix. As I said in a previous thread, Neo's very existence cannot happen without the Matrix existing, so it's logical to assume that every fight super-powered Neo has, is in the Matrix. Therefore, it's not likely for him to ever lose one.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
He can alter and edit anything he wishes. In the Matrix, the force would simply be a program, so he could remove it and replace it with something else. He decides what succeeds and fails.

He could still remove the force from the Matrix. As I said in a previous thread, Neo's very existence cannot happen without the Matrix existing, so it's logical to assume that every fight super-powered Neo has, is in the Matrix. Therefore, it's not likely for him to ever lose one.

-AC

Also, IF Neo removes the force from the Matrix, it is still imbedded within Luke. Luke can still wield it.

Neo can alter anything and everything that is PROGRAMMED into the Matrix, yes?

The only way Neo can nullify the force is if he obtains a Ysalamiri. And, seeing as how they exist only in the SW universe....well, you get the point.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
So lets say the fight is on, Luke entering the Matrix. The force has never existed in the Matrix before. (This is so stupid, Luke CANT be in the damn matrix)....Anyhow, how long will it take Neo to recognize the force as a, well, a "force", that must be removed?

Also, IF Neo removes the force from the Matrix, it is still imbedded within Luke. Luke can still wield it.

Neo can alter anything and everything that is PROGRAMMED into the Matrix, yes?

Oh dear, you don't get it.

Luke cannot ENTER the Matrix with the force as he sees fit. If he is in the real world, he has no powers, there IS no force. The Matrix is the only reason anybody ever has powers, because it's a program. Neo has powers inside and out, because he is the carrier. Luke simply doesn't. If this fight happens, it has to happen in the Matrix for Luke to be able to use the force, which in itself is a matrix creation, therefore, it's Neo's.

If Luke can't be in the Matrix then Neo can't ever fight Luke, because Neo exists due to the Matrix, that's his purpose. It's one of the most impossible fictional fights ever. If Neo exists, then the Matrix exists, and if that is the case, then the fight happens in the Matrix...since that is what the world is. If it happens outside, any "force" that exists wouldn't be there, since it would be a simulation contained within the program of the Matrix. Neo has power outside the Matrix because he is a systemic anomaly, so he'd still win.

Does that register with you? If you don't understand what I am saying, say so, don't debate against it because you just like Luke.

You obviously, like others, do not grasp the concept of the Matrix. I'll try to put it in layman's terms:

If Neo fights Luke, then it happens in the Matrix, because that is why Neo exists. If Neo is around, the Matrix is around. Neo can do absolutely anything he wishes, as soon as it comes to his mind, or even before. He is essentially god. He is the administrator of all and everything inside that program, including everything that happens inside it or exists inside it, ie: the force. There is absolutely nothing conceivable that Luke could do inside the Matrix, which is where the fight would have to be by definition, that Neo would not know in advance, or be able to instantaneously remove, change or defend himself against.

So you saying "If it's removed from the Matrix, it's still in Luke, he can still wield it.", that's proof you don't get the Matrix. Luke, or anybody within the Matrix, does what Neo allows them to do, nothing more. Luke could do nothing if Neo didn't want him to. He wields what Neo decides he can wield, doesn't wield what Neo decides he can't wield. Neo controls EVERYTHING there. There's no element of control Luke would have that could defy Neo's.

He doesn't see normally, all he sees is the Matrix code, so he can see everything happening before it even happens. It's an impossible fight for Luke to win.

Then you can argue "Well it's outside the Matrix.". Considering every power Luke has, and the force itself, would be a creation of the Matrix, he would just be a normal man outside of it, that's how the Matrix works. Neo is not a "normal" man anywhere.

People who don't grasp how the Matrix works should stop suggesting an unsized blonde fellow could defeat a man who controls everything ever, in any possible circumstance.

-AC

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
The only way Neo can nullify the force is if he obtains a Ysalamiri. And, seeing as how they exist only in the SW universe....well, you get the point.

Ysalamiri? Are you joking?

Next you're going to say something about cortosis.

Ysalamiri are one of the biggest loads of garbage that came from the EU, second only to cortosis (and not far ahead of Force Destroy Droid, turning Luke into a Jedi version of Goku, and the revolving door policy with people falling to the Dark Side).

According to Lana, the books aren't even canon, so we're going by the movies, in which Luke isn't that powerful.

Certainly not a match for Neo, or as she said, a gun, lots of guns (Haha, see).

-AC

It was pointed out in the first few pages that Neo is virtually a God, so Neo has ever slowly been gimped to what he can do and Luke has been powered up.

Which I made the comment, "if you need to gimp Neo so he will lose, then he obviously loses." Which is all the "Luke pwns all" crowd has going for them.

Originally posted by Peach
Ysalamiri? Are you joking?

Next you're going to say something about cortosis.

Ysalamiri are one of the biggest loads of garbage that came from the EU, second only to cortosis (and not far ahead of Force Destroy Droid, turning Luke into a Jedi version of Goku, and the revolving door policy with people falling to the Dark Side).

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
According to Lana, the books aren't even canon, so we're going by the movies, in which Luke isn't that powerful.

Certainly not a match for Neo, or as she said, a gun, lots of guns (Haha, see).

-AC

Of course Neo pwns ROTJ Luke, why didnt someone say before we were talking about ROTJ Luke?

For the record, NJO Luke COULD kill Neo without even raising a finger. This is FACT.

Because "we" were talking abou canonical incarnations, ones that, you know, count. The books aren't canon, so judging by what we have, Luke wouldn't beat Neo. He's simply not powerful enough, and he'd be in the Matrix.

So by the original and only canonical depiction of Luke Skywalker, not the "What might have happened." books, Neo wins.

That's the only version that matters, canonical versions.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
The books aren't canon, so judging by what we have, Luke wouldn't beat Neo. He's simply not powerful enough, and he'd be in the Matrix.

So by the original and only canonical depiction of Luke Skywalker, not the "What might have happened." books, Neo wins.

That's the only version that matters, canonical versions.

-AC

D Guy has allready agreed that we are talking about NJO Luke, Grand Master Luke, NOT ROTJ Luke. Its HIS decisions, NOT yours. 😄

Screw canon? Why? Because you know your boy is just that, a boy?

Well if you have to resort to over-blown, non-canonical hyperbole of a character to "win" a fight, then that pretty much proves my point.

I could go write a story about Neo and make him stronger than N.J.O. Luke, it doesn't make a bit of difference, because then it's dumb. Canon is the only reasonable way to have fantasy fights.

That's why you're using non-canon, because when considering factual canon, Luke is nothing to Neo.

But I'm sure you know that.

EDIT: I just read the beginning of the thread. Thread starter specifically says that we are limited to the movies because it's the movie forum, UNLESS LUKE NEEDS THE BOOKS. He does, so you chose to use them.

Case closed, Neo wins in canon, which is all that matters.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Screw canon? Why? Because you know your boy is just that, a boy?

Well if you have to resort to over-blown, non-canonical hyperbole of a character to "win" a fight, then that pretty much proves my point.

I could go write a story about Neo and make him stronger than N.J.O. Luke, it doesn't make a bit of difference, because then it's dumb. Canon is the only reasonable way to have fantasy fights.

That's why you're using non-canon, because when considering factual canon, Luke is nothing to Neo.

But I'm sure you know that.

EDIT: I just read the beginning of the thread. Thread starter specifically says that we are limited to the movies because it's the movie forum, UNLESS LUKE NEEDS THE BOOKS. He does, so you chose to use them.

Case closed, Neo wins in canon, which is all that matters.

-AC

It was obvious that ROTJ Luke had no chance against Neo, thats why D Guy agreed to NJO Luke.

But I am betting he will come back here and deny it, for the FACT that NJO Luke will crush Neo is painfully obvious, so, in closing.....

ROTJ Luke gets pwned by Neo.....

NJO Luke pwns Neo......

Get it? Got it? Good.

Exactly.

Canonically, which is what matters, Luke loses. Glad we agree.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Exactly.

Canonically, which is what matters, Luke loses. Glad we agree.

-AC

Based on movie versions, Neo wins.

Originally posted by celestialdemon
Based on movie versions, Neo wins.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
But we aren't talking Canonically, are we?

That's for the thread starter to decided.

Let's see what he says.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
You agree that Non Canon Luke beats Neo?

You have my word that I will answer this question if it becomes relevant. If the thread starter agrees we are discussing non-canon hyperbole, I will agree with you. Until then, I discuss canon only.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
That's for the thread starter to decided.

Let's see what he says.

You have my word that I will answer this question if it becomes relevant. If the thread starter agrees we are discussing non-canon hyperbole, I will agree with you. Until then, I discuss canon only.

-AC