Neo vs. Luke Skywalker

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
What am I dodging? You asked me questions, I answered. Movies do not trump books, you need to open your mind.

So, you are going on record to say that the continuity of the movies, the canon of the movies, does NOT trump or supercede the E.U.

That's your stance? Just so we're clear. I wanna make NO assumptions.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
No, extension, not exaggeration. Just because you believe only the movies matter doesn't mean we all must do the same.

It's not a matter of what "matters" to people, it's a matter of the circumstances of the books, who wrote them and what happens in them. They are no considered canon, and even when they are, they're considered inferior and looked down upon as, again, a "travesty".

REGARDLESS, you do not understand the difference between a book and a movie.

N.J.O. Luke has NEVER been in a movie, that alone proves that he has no place here. They are not the same character. One factually exists as canon in the movies, recognised, created by the hand of Lucas. One isn't any of those.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
They are the same characters, same back stories, same attributes (sometimes advanced, in lukes case). Same.

N.J.O. Luke is the exact same as the movie Luke? Are we going there? Seriously?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Again, I get what you are saying, I respect your opinion, but I do not agree.

Based on what? Don't just say "I disagree.". There are facts of life that I don't like, but am forced to accept.

You cannot disagree with this:

"How many movie adaptations has Hulk received? Blade?

Two for Hulk, serious ones anyway. Three for Blade.

How many has N.J.O. Luke had? Hmm? How many? Two, three or zero? Zero.

Even in the event that a character from a comic or book has a movie adaptation, you judge the adaptation on its own merit. Not 'Comic Hulk did this, so movie Hulk could.'. Even if N.J.O. Luke had a movie adaptation, it's not even to say it would be the same, or as powerful, as his book counterpart.".

That is all fact. Fact that they've been in movies, fact that this version of Luke has not. Fact that therefore they are eligible for discussion, fact that he therefore is not. You disagree with that last bit for no reason, none given, just "I disagree.". You disagree just cos you like Luke, you know there's no winning argument, nor credible one, you can present, because you know it's not true.

So you convince yourself it's opinion and run away. All of what you just dodged with "I disagree." is fact. Hardcore, and undeniable. You're not admitting it, nor are you denying it. Technical term: weaselling.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Hey, it's an analogy.

Yes, and it's incorrect.

No, before you say "In your opinion.", it's not. Both characters have been in movies, so are eligible to have movie adaptations discussed in a fight.

N.J.O. Luke never has.

-AC

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
So if someone is talking about Blade versus Wolverine, their abilities in the comics can't be discussed? That kinda limits the discussion.

It depends WHERE the thread originated from. If a Wolvering Vs. Blade thread is started in the comics forum, then it's common knowledge that they mean comics Wolverine and comics Blade.

If it's started in the movie Vs. section, then it's a matter of Wolverine from X-men 1-3 Vs. Blade from 1-3. Hugh Jackman's portrayal of Wolverine Vs. Wesley Snipe's portrayal of Blade.

Exactly.

If you went in the comics forum and tried arguing for any other version of a character besides canonical depiction, you'd get laughed out.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
So, you are going on record to say that the continuity of the movies, the canon of the movies, does NOT trump or supercede the E.U.

That's your stance? Just so we're clear. I wanna make NO assumptions.

It's not a matter of what "matters" to people, it's a matter of the circumstances of the books, who wrote them and what happens in them. They are no considered canon, and even when they are, they're considered inferior and looked down upon as, again, a "travesty".

REGARDLESS, you do not understand the difference between a book and a movie.

N.J.O. Luke has NEVER been in a movie, that alone proves that he has no place here. They are not the same character. One factually exists as canon in the movies, recognised, created by the hand of Lucas. One isn't any of those.

N.J.O. Luke is the exact same as the movie Luke? Are we going there? Seriously?

Based on what? Don't just say "I disagree.". There are facts of life that I don't like, but am forced to accept.

All of what you just dodged with "I disagree." is fact. Hardcore, and undeniable. You're not admitting it, nor are you denying it. Technical term: weaselling.

Yes, and it's incorrect.

No, before you say "In your opinion.", it's not. Both characters have been in movies, so are eligible to have movie adaptations discussed in a fight.

N.J.O. Luke never has.

-AC

Originally posted by Scythe
It depends WHERE the thread originated from. If a Wolvering Vs. Blade thread is started in the comics forum, then it's common knowledge that they mean comics Wolverine and comics Blade.

If it's started in the movie Vs. section, then it's a matter of Wolverine from X-men 1-3 Vs. Blade from 1-3. Hugh Jackman's portrayal of Wolverine Vs. Wesley Snipe's portrayal of Blade.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Thing is, there is nothing in the movie versus forum rules saying we cannot talk about books, comics, or EU.

Where is that said? But that's besides the point, even if it says so or not, if someone starts a thread stating X2, Wolverine Vs. Blade Trinity, Blade then we have to understand that only those two characters are being used. The thread starter, after being suckered in imo, later then started using NJO Luke, however NJO Luke has no reason to be here as this is a MOVIE Vs forum.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
IMO? Yes, as far as Canon goes pertaining to the movies already made. Continuity? You mean if they like make a whole new 1 thru 6 Saga?

So, for further clarification, George Lucas considering the movies to be the only canon series, the series above all, would be wrong? You'd debate him?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Considered inferior and a travesty by some, not all.

As far as I have been informed, George Lucas is at a disagreement with you, then. I'll quote Ush's thread:

Originally posted by Ushgarak
I don’t want to get into some kind of evidence war, but I will provide two quotes here that give context to our decisions here. The first is from Steve Sansweet, Lucasfilm’s head of fan relations, when directly asked a question on the Star Wars website relating to Boba Fett’s death in ROTJ compared to him being alive in the EU.

"When it comes to absolute canon, the real story of Star Wars, you must turn to the films themselves - and only the films. Even novelizations are interpretations of the film, and while they are largely true to George Lucas' vision (he works quite closely with the novel authors), the method in which they are written does allow for some minor differences.".

He went onto explain that George Lucas considers Boba Fett dead in the films, yet alive in the EU. This, of course, was an enormous clue as to how as far as GL is concerned, they do not share the same continuity. Clues are not necessary, though, as he made the point clear himself in a later magazine interview between Episodes II and III:

”There are two worlds here ... There's my world, which is the movies, and there's this other world that has been created, which I say is the parallel universe - the licensing world of the books, games and comic books. They don't intrude on my world, which is a select period of time, [but] they do intrude in between the movies. I don't get too involved in the parallel universe."

So I reiterate; are you gonna tell George Lucas that he's wrong?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Nope, he is far more advanced, but is still the same character.

Same name, not same "character". Besides, this is all irrelevant. He is not relevant to this forum, he is a book character, non/inferior canon, in a movie forum against a canon movie character.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
What do you want me to say, man? I have told you my reasons several times now, but you aren't liking the answers.

You won't admit to being wrong, and this is why you cannot debate. There's nothing in my post there that you can technically disagree with, just ignore fact.

Saying "I disagree." doesn't work. Your arguments and reasons are factually incorrect also.

You disagree, with what? My reasons for N.J.O. Luke being present here, right? Well how can you? It's a movie forum for movie characters or movie adaptations. N.J.O. Luke, regardless of what he is intended to be, is not a movie character, nor does he have a movie adaptation.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
As I have said, several times now, NJO Luke, to me, AND many others, is an extension of ROTJ Luke.

Is he a movie character? The answer is yes, or it's no.

Has he been in a movie, a book, or both? The answer is movie, book or both.

Don't weasel with "But they're the sa...", no. Just answer the questions.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Thing is, there is nothing in the movie versus forum rules saying we cannot talk about books, comics, or EU.

I would have thought the fact that there are specific forums for each medium was obvious. Comic Vs? That's for COMIC Vs. Star Wars Vs? I couldn't go in there with Neo Vs Luke, could I? No. Games Vs? Could you take N.J.O. Luke there? No.

Why is this forum an exception?

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
This is all based on the two of them fighting in an alternate universe and reality in which you have created, right?

Then excuse me while I disregard everything you've said.

No. That was a comment on the reality that more than one "the one" is technically possible in the Matrix movies. All it would take is just another person to become enlightened who also posses "the gift".

Also, the second paragraph in my post was a comment on another ability of Luke's that makes things get ridiculous for NJO Luke's powers.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Exactly, why is it so hard? Canon Vs canon, Neo wins. Movie forum, Neo wins.

Imp AND the thread starter said that we were going with NJO Luke because the ROTJ Luke would easily get his ass beat down if they both fought with their full powers.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It's only when you bring in non-canon E.U. Luke Skywalker, into an alternate universe, that there's even a chance.

I fully agree with this point...and retrospectively, I see your ultimate point. (The one made for several pages afterwards.)

About that...We are discussing NJO Luke ONLY because there's nothing to discuss if it is ROTJ Luke. I know you know this already. Some how, my typing it out to let you know that I know that, makes me feel better. 😄

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Non-canon Luke wins in the real world, Neo wins in the Matrix. That's where it ends, for me. That's where it ends for any logical person.

Non-canon and canon Luke make complete and utter trash of Neo if they fight in the real world.

You've said so yourself that you can't write stories very well so no one is expecting you to use your imagination to allow for them to fight. You are definitely a logical person. This discussion does require a degree of illogic in order to be a discussion, but not at the cost of losing fundemental reasoning, imo.

Discussing this requires imagination...which can be a very illogical intangible subject.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
"Let's pretend loads of things, despite them being contradictory and over-complicating for the sake of discussion.", no, I don't do that. It's either a credible Vs fight or it's not.

I agree that my suggestion for fighting does complicate things. But it is almost a must in order for this to logically take place. You as a logical person should appreciate the alternate Matrix that preserves all of Neo's powers while granting Luke's his. Luke literally cannot enter into the Matrix. There's no fight outside of the Matrix...Luke would rape. The only logical way for them to fight at full power, as this is what the thread is based on, is in an alternate Matrix that includes additional programming for Luke's powers. Neo has never shown the ability to erase the physics of the Matrix or any basic aspects of the Matrix...he has only been able to very limitedly manipulate certain aspects of the Matrix...ergo(do you like how I echoed the Architect with that one?), it would be a perfect way for them to fight each other at full power.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Vs fights are "Superman Vs The Hulk, in a desert, go.", "Spider-Man Vs Daredevil in New York City, go.". Not all this bs. As far as I'm concerned, this thread shouldn't even exist. It has only gotten this far because people have retardedly accepted a book character to do battle in the movie Vs forum. It's retarded.

This "retarded" discussion has taken place because people like to discuss it. The moderator has allowed it and this thread can't really exist anywhere else(since the thread creator decided that the NJO Luke was the only viable option.). Since the moderator decided that this would take place, it is not retarded, rule breaking, or illogical to discuss the NJO version of Luke in this versus discussion. Else I would not be discussing this...I try to follow the rules.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
If it's a stupid fight going by what EXISTS, is RELEVANT, and is CANON, then why not...not have the fight? Why do we have to descend into hyperbole and idiocy? Do you not see my point?

I see your point and it's a good one too.

However, since the mod and the thread starter decided on NJO Luke, NJO Luke IS the version being used in this vs. debate. I am almost sure that most to all Star Wars fans will readily admit that ROTJ Luke loses to "The-One" souped-up version of Neo...however, they cannot logically fight unless you introduce a non-canon feature by installing a jack on Luke. If you really want to adhere to canon as much as possible, then they can ONLY fight in the real world...in which case, Neo gets his ass handed to him by Luke. So that settles the discussion as logically as possible, right?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I don't do retarded, so I obviously cannot do that. If it takes gimping, bringing in non-canon book characters and arguing over stipulations for tens of pages, my "Stupid Thread" alarm goes off.

I let the retarded comment slide..this one time...next time, I will actually go retarded on your ass. You'll end up with my slobber on your face, a shit smell that strangely lingers on your shirt, and the saying "you can DOOO IT!" stuck in your head. (I wanted to throw in some donut sprinkles...but, oh well.)

I understand that you think putting them both in a matrix (and fitting Luke with a cerebral interface) that allows for both to be able to use the full extent of their powers, using the NJO Luke version as agreed upon by the Mod of this sub-forum and thread starter, and having them fight is illogical to you. Neo is not gimped in anyway...neither is Luke. For me, there is no other logical way for them to fight. I've logically accounted for all variables in order for them to fight and rebutted false perceptions of Neo's powers. There's nothing more I can do.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Some things are just not worth the time.

You don't have to post in this thread about this if it is wasting your time. I suspect you are still here because, just like myself, it is entertaining for you.

I don't see any reason for George Lucas' opinion to be considered, at all. I'm sure there's a creationist among us that can back me up. I mean, one that has abandoned logic and universal certainty, of course.

Originally posted by dadudemon
No. That was a comment on the reality that more than one "the one" is technically possible in the Matrix movies. All it would take is just another person to become enlightened who also posses "the gift".

Also, the second paragraph in my post was a comment on another ability of Luke's that makes things get ridiculous for NJO Luke's powers.

So we agree they're ridiculous, excellent.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Imp AND the thread starter said that we were going with NJO Luke because the ROTJ Luke would easily get his ass beat down if they both fought with their full powers.

Again, then don't have the thread. He has no place here, as I've proven beyond argument.

Originally posted by dadudemon
About that...We are discussing NJO Luke ONLY because there's nothing to discuss if it is ROTJ Luke. I know you know this already. Some how, my typing it out to let you know that I know that, makes me feel better. 😄

Then let there be nothing to discuss about this particular fight between these two particular people. As if there aren't enough other threads to be created. Too many stupid threads have lived because people feel they have to make a discussion out of it.

Storm Vs Dr. Doom went on for longer than sensibly possible because idiots were...well, being idiots. It should just be "This is a ridiculous thread, it's that simple.", same goes for this.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Non-canon and canon Luke make complete and utter trash of Neo if they fight in the real world.

Then let him do that. I don't care, as long as it's not some hyperbole-driven exaggeration from the books.

Originally posted by dadudemon
You've said so yourself that you can't write stories very well so no one is expecting you to use your imagination to allow for them to fight. You are definitely a logical person. This discussion does require a degree of illogic in order to be a discussion, but not at the cost of losing fundemental reasoning, imo.

My first few months here, more maybe, were spent earning (Not by choice) a reputation in the comics Vs forum (Before it was even the Vs forum). It's not a lack of imagination, it's a lack of tolerance for stupid threads and fights that evidently do not work.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Discussing this requires imagination...which can be a very illogical intangible subject.

This isn't about imagination, this isn't about pondering "What if Superman ended up meeting a Marvel guy in a desert somewhere?". This is ridiculous, incompatible bs, for reasons stated.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I agree that my suggestion for fighting does complicate things. But it is almost a must in order for this to logically take place. You as a logical person should appreciate the alternate Matrix that preserves all of Neo's powers while granting Luke's his. Luke literally cannot enter into the Matrix. There's no fight outside of the Matrix...Luke would rape. The only logical way for them to fight at full power, as this is what the thread is based on, is in an alternate Matrix that includes additional programming for Luke's powers. Neo has never shown the ability to erase the physics of the Matrix or any basic aspects of the Matrix...he has only been able to very limitedly manipulate certain aspects of the Matrix...ergo(do you like how I echoed the Architect with that one?), it would be a perfect way for them to fight each other at full power.

You said it all in the second line, "It's a must for this to take place.". So why just not have it take place? It's a stupid thread and a stupid fight that requires ignoring one thing, highlighting the other, or ignoring everything and creating your own reality, thus gimping someone else. If not gimping him, rendering his advantage null.

It's just silly.

If you have to do stupid stuff for it to "logically take place", then it shouldn't take place.

Originally posted by dadudemon
This "retarded" discussion has taken place because people like to discuss it. The moderator has allowed it and this thread can't really exist anywhere else(since the thread creator decided that the NJO Luke was the only viable option.). Since the moderator decided that this would take place, it is not retarded, rule breaking, or illogical to discuss the NJO version of Luke in this versus discussion. Else I would not be discussing this...I try to follow the rules.

It factually is. What part of "Non/Inferior canon book character with no movie adaptaion Vs Canonical movie character bound by technicality and storyline, inseperable from that." do you not see as illogical or dumb?

That is the BASE FACT that makes this...wrong. He's from a book, an arguable status of book, too. He shouldn't even be in this forum. The fact that Imp allowed it doesn't change that. Movie Vs should be Movie Vs. Not Book/Movie Vs, that's not the title of the forum.

RJ tried doing the "Same character" thing, but I've more or less drove him out of this thread because he is factually wrong (He'll be back now, fact), but it's not the case. It's movie Luke or it's none, that's how it should be.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I see your point and it's a good one too.

However, since the mod and the thread starter decided on NJO Luke, NJO Luke IS the version being used in this vs. debate. I am almost sure that most to all Star Wars fans will readily admit that ROTJ Luke loses to "The-One" souped-up version of Neo...however, they cannot logically fight unless you introduce a non-canon feature by installing a jack on Luke.

See, why would you do that? What is the point? Where are you not seeing how retarded and stupid that is? Just don't do it. Why break rules and introduce books to movies in a movie Vs forum based on "...well...we couldn't do it otherwise!". Don't do it then, have another fight.

Originally posted by dadudemon
If you really want to adhere to canon as much as possible, then they can ONLY fight in the real world...in which case, Neo gets his ass handed to him by Luke. So that settles the discussion as logically as possible, right?

Exactly. Doesn't matter to me who wins, just either make it quick and sensible or pick a better fight. Because making up rules and ignoring shit that is important just because you wanna have a discussion, is silly.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I understand that you think putting them both in a matrix (and fitting Luke with a cerebral interface) that allows for both to be able to use the full extent of their powers, using the NJO Luke version as agreed upon by the Mod of this sub-forum and thread starter, and having them fight is illogical to you. Neo is not gimped in anyway...neither is Luke. For me, there is no other logical way for them to fight.

Then don't...have them...fight. What about this is rocket science? Really. You point out to me what you're having trouble with and I'll tackle the explanation again.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I've logically accounted for all variables in order for them to fight and rebutted false perceptions of Neo's powers. There's nothing more I can do.

If they can't fight fairly with movie versions, then they shouldn't fight at all.

Originally posted by dadudemon
You don't have to post in this thread about this if it is wasting your time. I suspect you are still here because, just like myself, it is entertaining for you.

I'm doing this in the hopes that soon, someone will grasp the point I'm making and then stop making stupid threads that involve characters that either don't work well in Vs anyway (Neo), or aren't even in any movies (N.J.O. Luke).

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Which is precisely why we've been arguing over many millions of things regarding the stipulations of this fight.

There should be no stipulations. There's no need for them. Either the fight takes place inside the matrix where Neo actually has powers OR it does not. If it does not, then Neo is of no consequence. Either the machines have extended their presence to other planets and life forms, or alien life forms exist as a part of the matrix. The lines are pretty black and white.

That makes sense, but you see, people like Luke to the degree that they ignore how he's simply not good enough to fight Neo in the Matrix, or they like Neo too much to realise he couldn't beat Luke out of it.

Hence dadudemon's theories.

-AC

Originally posted by Scythe
Where is that said? But that's besides the point, even if it says so or not, if someone starts a thread stating X2, Wolverine Vs. Blade Trinity, Blade then we have to understand that only those two characters are being used. The thread starter, after being suckered in imo, later then started using NJO Luke, however NJO Luke has no reason to be here as this is a MOVIE Vs forum.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f102/t479748.html

It's also not said books and comics are allowed.

It's implied, as in the name of the forum, that this is for movies.

-AC

This shouldn't have gone on for 48 pages.

Neo would win I think. He dodged blades of all kinds in Reloaded, so I'm pretty sure he could avoid Luke's saber. Luke has the force, but Neo can fight with bullet-time type speed, to avoid whatever it is Luke throws at him.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It's also not said books and comics are allowed.

It's implied, as in the name of the forum, that this is for movies.

-AC

Originally posted by Quincy
This shouldn't have gone on for 48 pages.

Neo would win I think. He dodged blades of all kinds in Reloaded, so I'm pretty sure he could avoid Luke's saber. Luke has the force, but Neo can fight with bullet-time type speed, to avoid whatever it is Luke throws at him.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
You just said it, it's not said. Therefore there IS a place here for it if someone wishes to add it.

It doesn't say it's allowed, so then we have to move to the fact that there is a specific Vs forum for every medium: games, comics, Star Wars, movies.

Why, then, do you assume you can still do all of that here?

-AC

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f102/t479748.html

What's that suppose to be for, I don't require that. I've made my decision and nothing will change it. I could care less, I'm done trying to show you the error of your ways, so go about thinking what you do, and I will do the same.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
So, for further clarification, George Lucas considering the movies to be the only canon series, the series above all, would be wrong? You'd debate him?

As far as I have been informed, George Lucas is at a disagreement with you, then. I'll quote Ush's thread:

So I reiterate; are you gonna tell George Lucas that he's wrong?

Same name, not same "character". Besides, this is all irrelevant. He is not relevant to this forum, he is a book character, non/inferior canon, in a movie forum against a canon movie character.

You won't admit to being wrong, and this is why you cannot debate. There's nothing in my post there that you can technically disagree with, just ignore fact.

Saying "I disagree." doesn't work. Your arguments and reasons are factually incorrect also.

You disagree, with what? My reasons for N.J.O. Luke being present here, right? Well how can you? It's a movie forum for movie characters or movie adaptations. N.J.O. Luke, regardless of what he is intended to be, is not a movie character, nor does he have a movie adaptation.

BTW: You don't seem to accept that fact that you just keep an argument going and going and going until someone gives up, so it appears you have won. Dude and I dont give up, so that's why you target the two of us at random. THAT'S a fact.

Is he a movie character? The answer is yes, or it's no.

Has he been in a movie, a book, or both? The answer is movie, book or both.

Don't weasel with "But they're the sa...", no. Just answer the questions.

I would have thought the fact that there are specific forums for each medium was obvious. Comic Vs? That's for COMIC Vs. Star Wars Vs? I couldn't go in there with Neo Vs Luke, could I? No. Games Vs? Could you take N.J.O. Luke there? No.

Why is this forum an exception?

-AC