Neo vs. Luke Skywalker

Originally posted by Robtard
1) Luke can't move that fast, Jedi's are fast, but they can't move at super-lighting speeds. He could not dodge, arm his weapon and attack all in less than a second, a lot less than a second at that.

2) Luke's use of the force is a devatating weapon, but Neo's has the abiltiy to alter reality to his liking, in theory, any Force attack Luke tries, Neo could bend it to his own will/use. But he wouldn't need that, because speed would all that would be needed. Considering Neo is Godlike in power.

1. I disagree. Even IF Neo could moved as fast as you would like him to, he still does not have the reflexes to control himself under that speed. He is NOT the Flash. He can fly really damn fast...yes...but he has NOT shown to be able to fight fast like a DragonBall Z character. Luke has more than shown his ability to react to things as fast or faster than bullets...blaster bolt deflection. Not ONLY can he react fast enough to deflect the blaster bolt, he can also react fast enough and dexterously enough to reflect the bolt right back to the person who fired it.

2. I agree. But Neo's abilities are tied to the Matrix. Put Neo into Luke's universe and he only has the fighting skills the computer loaded into his brain. Did you miss this point earlier?

Stop being an illogical subjective fanboy. 😆 (P.S. yeah...I'm not serious about that last comment. I'm mocking you betch.)

Originally posted by Robtard
I did; moving at super-duper speeds isn't one of his powers, sure he's faster than any normal human and possibly any other Jedi, but he can't move at 'The FLash' like speeds, which you just claimed he could. Do you know how fast a 50th (or greater) of a second is? This is why you're a fanboy, you make up shit. Do yourself a favor and try some objectivity, you're embaressing yourself.

Unless the battle starts and they're miles apart, Neo would be on him and have killed him even before the saber moved an inch. The split second it takes Luke to think about using some force attack, Neo would be on him.

FORCE PROTECTION - A power generally only achieved by high-ranking Jedi masters, Force protection will make the bearer invulnerable to a wide range of physical weapons, energy weapons, and Force powers. The ultimate in terms of defense.

FORCE BLINDING-Force Blinding is a light side Force power. It emanates what appears as a blinding flash of energy, overloading the target's vision and causing temporary blindness. A powerful tool of the light side, a Jedi can obfuscate an opponent's sight, making it difficult for the adversary to spot and attack the Jedi

DISIPATE ENERGY-Dissipate Energy (or Absorb)- The ability to disperse Force energy, and to even absorb or redirect it. A trained Jedi may contain the energy of all kinds of Force attacks used against them. As the energy used to perform Force-related powers is limited, a Jedi can use the enemy's attacks to their own benefit, instead of receiving damage from them.

PRECOGNITION - Certain devotees of the Force are gifted in the ability to sense extreme danger however subtle it is, and receive ample warning to defend against the threat.

And these powers are only the tip of the iceberg, I only listed FOUR of them. Imagine if Luke uses as many as he wants?

And the fact that Luke will KNOW what Neo is gonna do BEFORE Neo does it is all the edge Luke needs. Doesnt matter if Neo hits with the force of a freight train, Luke will have sensed it, he will have realized it even as Neo thinks it, and will EASILY be able to evade.

Sure, Neo can take a shitload of punishment, kicks and punches, but if Luke lops off aleg or an arm, you think Neo is gonna be the same? Not to mention his head.

Face it, man. Neo is stronger physically, prolly faster, but Luke has WAY too many weapons at his disposal.

Originally posted by dadudemon
1. I disagree. Even IF Neo could moved as fast as you would like him to, he still does not have the reflexes to control himself under that speed. He is NOT the Flash. He can fly really damn fast...yes...but he has NOT shown to be able to fight fast like a DragonBall Z character. Luke has more than shown his ability to react to things as fast or faster than bullets...blaster bolt deflection. Not ONLY can he react fast enough to deflect the blaster bolt, he can also react fast enough and dexterously enough to reflect the bolt right back to the person who fired it.

2. I agree. But Neo's abilities are tied to the Matrix. Put Neo into Luke's universe and he only has the fighting skills the computer loaded into his brain. Did you miss this point earlier?

Stop being an illogical subjective fanboy. 😆 (P.S. yeah...I'm not serious about that last comment. I'm mocking you betch.)

He can fly at Luke at 3390 feet per second and hit him, that is all that would be needed. Oddly, blaster bolts travel slower than bullets, at least seen from the movies, it doesn't make sense, but it is what it is.

There you go again, you're using Luke at his max potential while gimping Neo to the point where he is weaker. As Bardock42 noted, if weaken Neo to be less powerful than Luke, than Luke will be stornger. In that special scenario, Luke wins. Yay for you.

Get your own material, plagerist.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
see, you are only acknowledging SOME of Lukes powers, not all. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_powers#Light

FORCE PROTECTION - A power generally only achieved by high-ranking Jedi masters, Force protection will make the bearer invulnerable to a wide range of physical weapons, energy weapons, and Force powers. The ultimate in terms of defense.

FORCE BLINDING-Force Blinding is a light side Force power. It emanates what appears as a blinding flash of energy, overloading the target's vision and causing temporary blindness. A powerful tool of the light side, a Jedi can obfuscate an opponent's sight, making it difficult for the adversary to spot and attack the Jedi

DISIPATE ENERGY-Dissipate Energy (or Absorb)- The ability to disperse Force energy, and to even absorb or redirect it. A trained Jedi may contain the energy of all kinds of Force attacks used against them. As the energy used to perform Force-related powers is limited, a Jedi can use the enemy's attacks to their own benefit, instead of receiving damage from them.

PRECOGNITION - Certain devotees of the Force are gifted in the ability to sense extreme danger however subtle it is, and receive ample warning to defend against the threat.

And these powers are only the tip of the iceberg, I only listed FOUR of them. Imagine if Luke uses as many as he wants?

And the fact that Luke will KNOW what Neo is gonna do BEFORE Neo does it is all the edge Luke needs. Doesnt matter if Neo hits with the force of a freight train, Luke will have sensed it, he will have realized it even as Neo thinks it, and will EASILY be able to evade.

Sure, Neo can take a shitload of punishment, kicks and punches, but if Luke lops off aleg or an arm, you think Neo is gonna be the same? Not to mention his head.

Face it, man. Neo is stronger physically, prolly faster, but Luke has WAY too many weapons at his disposal.

I've acknowledged that Luke is extremely powerful. All you do is ignore your own rules and make new ones when someone counters your "Okay, Neo could win if he can do this" with something that would indeed deafeat Luke, you silly Fanboy.

Also, Neo has the ability to bring himself back from death (i.e. alter reality as he sees fit)... I know, I know... Luke only gets to fight at his max potential, Neo has to have limits.

Originally posted by dadudemon
1. I disagree. Even IF Neo could moved as fast as you would like him to, he still does not have the reflexes to control himself under that speed. He is NOT the Flash. He can fly really damn fast...yes...but he has NOT shown to be able to fight fast like a DragonBall Z character. Luke has more than shown his ability to react to things as fast or faster than bullets...blaster bolt deflection. Not ONLY can he react fast enough to deflect the blaster bolt, he can also react fast enough and dexterously enough to reflect the bolt right back to the person who fired it.

2. I agree. But Neo's abilities are tied to the Matrix. Put Neo into Luke's universe and he only has the fighting skills the computer loaded into his brain. Did you miss this point earlier?

Stop being an illogical subjective fanboy. 😆 (P.S. yeah...I'm not serious about that last comment. I'm mocking you betch.)

1.actually they could fight that fast, hence when the yslow time to catch their moves, in his fight with agent smith it was slowed to suc ha degree that the lightning was moving slower than them

2. that what I saidin the first mode this fight is as if neo is linked to the matrix, the only thing is luke is fighting as if he were in the real world, hence luke can't really affect him with his powers( reprogramming him and such)

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
see, you are only acknowledging SOME of Lukes powers, not all. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_powers#Light

FORCE PROTECTION - A power generally only achieved by high-ranking Jedi masters, Force protection will make the bearer invulnerable to a wide range of physical weapons, energy weapons, and Force powers. The ultimate in terms of defense.

FORCE BLINDING-Force Blinding is a light side Force power. It emanates what appears as a blinding flash of energy, overloading the target's vision and causing temporary blindness. A powerful tool of the light side, a Jedi can obfuscate an opponent's sight, making it difficult for the adversary to spot and attack the Jedi

DISIPATE ENERGY-Dissipate Energy (or Absorb)- The ability to disperse Force energy, and to even absorb or redirect it. A trained Jedi may contain the energy of all kinds of Force attacks used against them. As the energy used to perform Force-related powers is limited, a Jedi can use the enemy's attacks to their own benefit, instead of receiving damage from them.

PRECOGNITION - Certain devotees of the Force are gifted in the ability to sense extreme danger however subtle it is, and receive ample warning to defend against the threat.

And these powers are only the tip of the iceberg, I only listed FOUR of them. Imagine if Luke uses as many as he wants?

And the fact that Luke will KNOW what Neo is gonna do BEFORE Neo does it is all the edge Luke needs. Doesnt matter if Neo hits with the force of a freight train, Luke will have sensed it, he will have realized it even as Neo thinks it, and will EASILY be able to evade.

Sure, Neo can take a shitload of punishment, kicks and punches, but if Luke lops off aleg or an arm, you think Neo is gonna be the same? Not to mention his head.

Face it, man. Neo is stronger physically, prolly faster, but Luke has WAY too many weapons at his disposal.

force protection, has it show the ability to survive a being moving a 3x the speed of sound attacking him or the type of drop neo took when fighting against smith

force blinding, neo doesnt need to see, even in the real world he used his matrix powers to "see" without his eyes

disipate energy, neo has no energy attacks

precognition, already adressed, it doesnt matter if luke has already sensed it if he cant react to defend it and neo has a form of precognition too

In the matrix Neo would end luke within seconds. Out of the matrix, luke would end Neo within seconds. Neo can only utilize his abilities on machines when outside of the matrix and even then, his abilities are only a fraction of what they are when in the matrix

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
In the matrix Neo would end luke within seconds. Out of the matrix, luke would end Neo within seconds. Neo can only utilize his abilities on machines when outside of the matrix and even then, his abilities are only a fraction of what they are when in the matrix

The logical premise would be that they can use all their powers to their full potential, regardless of where they are, and as much as the Luke fanboys ignore it, Neo is Godlike in power.

Originally posted by Robtard
He can fly at Luke at 3390 feet per second and hit him, that is all that would be needed.

Originally posted by Robtard
Oddly, blaster bolts travel slower than bullets, at least seen from the movies, it doesn't make sense, but it is what it is.

Hmm....*searches google*

I concede that point. I really can't see a blaster bolt traveling as fast as a bullet on any searches on the internet.(some fanboy bs...but that is just about it) Other than some choreography errors which showed destruction from a blaster bolt before it actually hit the surface, there is no proof other than the visuals provided in the movie. They don't travel very fast...maybe 500 mph. I would love to see an expert dissect several scenes which show that in one scene, a blaster bolt travels very fast (like at the Battle of Hoth) and in another scene, blaster bolts travel at like 100 mph.(like in the Trash Compactor Scene when Han Solo "shoots first".) So this point is yours until later.

Also, here is a nice nerdy, yet funny, read about the trash compactor on the Death Star.

http://forums.macrumors.com/archive/index.php/t-205501.html

Originally posted by Robtard
There you go again, you're using Luke at his max potential while gimping Neo to the point where he is weaker. As Bardock42 noted, if weaken Neo to be less powerful than Luke, than Luke will be stornger. In that special scenario, Luke wins. Yay for you.

Indeed. I said IF you put Luke in Neo's matrix...Neo wins...but not by a ridiculous landslide. You put Neo in Luke's universe, Luke rapes Neo without effort.

Luke's abilities would carry, somewhat, into the Matrix because of his precog abilities. Luke would/should last for a while..until he realizes that Neo Cannot be killed in his Universe.

Originally posted by Robtard
Get your own material, plagerist.

Seriously, I have no idea what you were referring to right there.

Originally posted by dadudemon

Indeed. I said IF you put Luke in Neo's matrix...Neo wins...but not by a ridiculous landslide. You put Neo in Luke's universe, Luke rapes Neo without effort.

Originally posted by Robtard
The logical premise would be that they can use all their powers to their full potential, regardless of where they are, and as much as the Luke fanboys ignore it, Neo is Godlike in power.

Originally posted by Robtard
The logical premise would be that they can use all their powers to their full potential, regardless of where they are, and as much as the Luke fanboys ignore it, Neo is Godlike in power.

well, in that scenario. I would say Luke is bested rather quickly. Luke and Neo possess, essentially the same abilities when it comes to manipulation of the force. For all intents and purposes Neo is a Jedi in this scenario, He may lack a lightsaber but he can fly and has Super human strength. He also has a supreme physical constitution. I have never read a star wars book where Luke gets knocked through buildings and slammed into the ground hard enough to create a massive crater while still being able to stand. However, I did read in the new jedi order where Lukes son brought down a small mountain face with his force ability..,that was metal.

If both are fully powered, the only advantage luke has is his lightsaber, but i wouldn't even consider that an advantage.

Originally posted by dadudemon

Indeed. I said IF you put Luke in Neo's matrix...Neo wins...but not by a ridiculous landslide. You put Neo in Luke's universe, Luke rapes Neo without effort.

Luke's abilities would carry, somewhat, into the Matrix because of his precog abilities. Luke would/should last for a while..until he realizes that Neo Cannot be killed in his Universe.

.

Seriously, if this battle takes place in the matrix...,Luke would be killed after a single punch by neo. Now, if Luke is given training to hone and better understand his abilities. This would be a different story.

Also, does the force even apply in the matrix? It is completely fake. Neo is so powerful because he is the only one able to manipulate the code to full extent, just how Luke and the jedi are able to manipulate the force

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
Seriously, if this battle takes place in the matrix...,Luke would be killed after a single punch by neo.

I agree.

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
Now, if Luke is given training to hone and better understand his abilities. This would be a different story.

Hence the introduction of NJO Luke.

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
Also, does the force even apply in the matrix?

Only things of the mind. Such as precog. (It would allow Luke to at least dodge and make use of his environment.) I have no idea to what extent Luk'es mind powers work...but how can we assume that Luke cannot make a connection with Neo's mind and make some sort of use of that? Illusions...maybe...

I only think precog abilities would do any good because Neo has shown his mind is definitely very strong.

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
Neo is so powerful because he is the only one able to manipulate the code to full extent, just how Luke and the jedi are able to manipulate the force

They won't. I have addressed this in previous posts. 😄

Originally posted by Robtard

Sorry...what did you say?

That's what I thought.

If they could use their powers to their full extent AND both be mortal (in other words, none of this infinite durability that Neo seems to have), neo would be dead in a heart beat.

😱 😱 😱

Why?

Simple. Neo's body can't handle practically anything uber he does in the Matrix.

Like I said, they would have to fight in a matrix like I have described. That way both could fight at their best (minus the Agent Smith destructo shit...said that already.)

In which case, Luke is the obvious winner, imo. Luke has exhibited more abilities and is a much better precog.

On a different note...

How fast do you think pod racers go? aaaaaaannnndddd then what about the reflexes required to drive them? uh huh....do you think you think NJO Luke is more attune to his surrounding than an 8 year old Anakin?

uh huuuuhhh....hmm

Realistically, a Jedi's reaction time is better than 0 seconds. Not 1/50th. They literally SEE into the future...hence the term "Jedi Reflexes".

What part of "they are both at their full potential in power", can't your mind comprehend? If you start toning down one, while leaving the other at full potential, then any outcome you wish can be reached, can you grasp that concept, Luke-Fanboy-#2?

They looked like they moved at around 300-350 (maybe a bit more) miles per hour, the scene where you see them fly by the crowd, it didn't look like they were going a whole of a lot faster than that, I don't know though. Jet's fly a lot faster (Mach 1-2) than those Pod Racers, yet regular guys who are highly trained seem to be able to handle those fine.

Yet Jedi's died by the score; from regular blaster fire. So I'm not so sure your "0 Second" reaction time is accurate.

Like I said, if you need to gimp Neo and reduce his power so he's weaker than Luke, sure, Luke will be stronger and he will win in that special scenario. Good for you, you big winner.

Originally posted by Robtard
I've acknowledged that Luke is extremely powerful. All you do is ignore your own rules and make new ones when someone counters your "Okay, Neo could win if he can do this" with something that would indeed deafeat Luke, you silly Fanboy.

Also, Neo has the ability to bring himself back from death (i.e. alter reality as he sees fit)... I know, I know... Luke only gets to fight at his max potential, Neo has to have limits.

and I am ignoring nothing, YOU are ignoring the incredible array of powers that Luke has, and are basing your argument on Neo flying around like a pansy at supersonic speeds.

Once again...Luke has ALL his powers, as does Neo, and these powers work on each other, right?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
as long as NJO Luke keeps ahold of his saber, he has a chance. If it goes hand to hand, he gets pwned.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
well, I guess it'd be like a quick draw, whoever wields their powers the fastest.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
My stance is that Luke would own Neo, unless Neo relieved him of his lightsaber. That has been my stance for a while now.

Originally posted by Robtard
Yea...

Originally posted by Robtard
What part of "they are both at their full potential in power", can't your mind comprehend? If you start toning down one, while leaving the other at full potential, then any outcome you wish can be reached, can you grasp that concept, Luke-Fanboy-#2?

Calling me a fanboy is a an old and tired "technique" that teenagers use in the comic book forum.

"reality warping"? "god-like"?

And you call me a fanboy.

Originally posted by Robtard
They looked like they moved at around 200-250 (maybe a bit more) miles per hour, the scene where you see them fly by the crowd, it didn't look like they were going a whole of a lot faster than that. Jet's fly a lot faster (Mach 1-2) than those Pod Racers, yet regular guys who are highly trained seem to be able to handle those fine.

How many humans drive pod racers? Thanks for missing my point. Pod Racers have a top speed of around 900 Km/h. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Podracing

Originally posted by Robtard
Yet Jedi's died by the score; from regular blaster fire. So I'm not so sure your "0 Second" reaction time is accurate.

And that proves what? They only had so many moves to make when the blast bolts rained on them? No matter how well you can see the next 1 or 2 seconds by instinct...if there are no moves...there are no moves.

Neo's saving grace is coming back from the dead in the Matrix. That and the "Agent Smith" erasing technique are the only things he has on Luke...more on that later.

In the Matrix, Neo could have just stopped all of the blaster bolts. So why didn't Neo "warp reality" to just kill his attackers?

Originally posted by Robtard
Like I said, if you [b]need to gimp Neo and reduce his power so he's weaker than Luke, sure, Luke will be stronger and he will win in that special scenario. Good for you, you big winner. [/B]

In Neo's world, Luke would have little chance of surviving very long. In Luke's world, Neo wouldn't have even a little chance. Surely you realize this? That right there should indicate to you that Neo's abilities are limited to just a computer simulation. Wake up(pun intended), and stop being a Matrix fanboy.

To make it fair, they would have to fight in a different universe where both got to keep their powers. The thing Neo did to Agent Smith in The Matrix is the only end all be all that I feel that Luke stands no chance against UNLESS he can dodge it. It was the thread starters idea to suggest that Luke cannot be "erased" and to use Luke's "movie powers". That setup would be horribly one sided. NJO Luke was introduced to help.

Address this point:

IF the Matrix does not exist, what are Neo's powers?

Also, who's to say that Luke, in his enlightenment and otherworldy abilities to learn extremely difficult techniques in very little time, would not also become "Matrix enlightened". Wouldn't Luke's precog ability help him the see the future? Wouldn't that ability allow him to become a "Neo" also? Luke is more talented mentally than Neo. I wouldn't go as far to say "much more" because Neo is rare among humans for his brain, however, he is not unique.

Luke is unique amoung hundreds of Trillions. Did you comprehend that? Hundreds of TRILLIONS. Luke's mind is unique among more than just one species...a universe which contains superior species to humans.

Would Neo have become "The One" if no one told him he would become "The One"? That was the point of some of the plot: causality.

Luke could rip the memories out Neo's mind and figure out how to become a "The One" as well. Neo's mind is connected to the matrix and Luke has shown abilities over complicated and powerful machines. (With no training.) So whose to say that Luke couldn't alter the matrix or cause feedback in it that could possible destroy it?

So here's the scenario.

Neo and Luke meet up in the Matrix. Luke, already having foreseen this, already knows what to do. He immediately attacks Neo's mind and rips all information he needs to, to become enlightened just like Neo. Neo, barely able to move because of how horrific the mind rip is, regains his composure and almost instantly flies right at Luke. Luke stops Neo dead in midair with his ridiculous force powers. Neo, being a very strong willed person AND having great control in the Matrix, starts to move. This causes Luke to have to strain to hold Neo still because Neo is almost Godly in his strength and ability to bend the Matrix to his will.

Then Luke uses Electric Judgment and it sends so much feedback through the matrix that it fries the Real Word Neo's brain and Neo becomes a vegetable. Or you could have Luke and Neo fighting it out Matrix Style. Luke obviously wins with his precog ability AND Neo's powers. Hell, Luke would be a better Neo with his extremely enlightened mind.

You could also mention things like his "Force Defend" and "Force Stasis". Give Neo all his powers, Luke has more than enough to handle Neo.

What reality warping does Neo do in ALL of the Matrix? Other than flying, having ridiculously good fighting skills, and some very good strength, what does Neo do that makes him god-like? It would appear he has very little control over the Matrix. You show me pressure spheres created from the punches exchanged between Agent Smith and Neo, I'll show you a Luke Skywalker that embedded himself so stationary with the force that not even the uber ridiculous black hole at the center of the universe could move him......and then there is force enlightenment. Luke was in such a state that there is no way Neo's human mind could react fast enough to even see what is happening. Why do you keep overlooking that point? Neo has a human mind. His reactions are definitely super-human...but no where near Jedi levels.

Originally posted by Robtard
What part of "they are both at their full potential in power", can't your mind comprehend? If you start toning down one, while leaving the other at full potential, then any outcome you wish can be reached, can you grasp that concept, Luke-Fanboy-#2?

They looked like they moved at around 300-350 (maybe a bit more) miles per hour, the scene where you see them fly by the crowd, it didn't look like they were going a whole of a lot faster than that, I don't know though. Jet's fly a lot faster (Mach 1-2) than those Pod Racers, yet regular guys who are highly trained seem to be able to handle those fine.

Yet Jedi's died by the score; from regular blaster fire. So I'm not so sure your "0 Second" reaction time is accurate.

Like I said, if you [b]need to gimp Neo and reduce his power so he's weaker than Luke, sure, Luke will be stronger and he will win in that special scenario. Good for you, you big winner. [/B]