^ No one expected it to cut through him, but for Supes to stop it cold, a a weapon that even an Enraged Hulk cant even budge, a weapon thats Indestructible, and Magical, while shooting out Thor's Lightning and being thrown by a guy almost as strong as Supes??
That was just plain out PIS.. Marvel saying "whatever DC have the win, we aint that bothered"
And you think Wonder Woman's and Captain Marvel's Fists would hurt as much as a hit from Thor's Hammer??!! Unbelievable!
Originally posted by leonidas
why would it have been PIS when nefaria stopped the hammer....? i had no problem with it, like i had no problem with superman stopping it.
Because Nefaria isn't weak to magic.
Magic Weapons should affect superman just as they would anyone else- he's been cut by wonder woman's magic tiara, for instance.
However, JLA/Avengers had Superman inexplicably taking a full speed hammer throw to the jaw and getting up undamaged, then stopping mjolnir with one hand with thor swinging it.
Mjolnir is one of the most powerful magical items in the Marvel U. Most people can't even pick it up, the enchantments are that strong.
Superman should have ended up with a crushed skull and a broken hand at the very least.
Originally posted by Space M ummy
Because Nefaria isn't weak to magic.Magic Weapons [b]should
affect superman just as they would anyone else- he's been cut by wonder woman's magic tiara, for instance.However, JLA/Avengers had Superman inexplicably taking a full speed hammer throw to the jaw and getting up undamaged, then stopping mjolnir with one hand with thor swinging it.
Mjolnir is one of the most powerful magical items in the Marvel U. Most people can't even pick it up, the enchantments are that strong.
Superman should have ended up with a crushed skull and a broken hand at the very least. [/B]
The "magic weakness" doesn't work that way.
Thor's hammer is powered by magic, and can perform magic effects, but there's no evidence simply being hit by it would cause any more damage than being hit by a comparably durable, non magic hammer.
And besides, it also depends on the type of magic. Supermans been hit by magic lightning and beams, and gotten back up before, while in other instances he's been cut by magic blades, so simply having the word "magic" in it does not = Supermans durability being useless.
I think Thors hammer blows will affect Superman the same way it affected everyone else. The lightning may hurt a little more than against most, but he can take that too, the same as he's taken Caps lightning..
Originally posted by cdtm
The "magic weakness" doesn't work that way.Thor's hammer is powered by magic, and can perform magic effects, but there's no evidence simply being hit by it would cause any more damage than being hit by a comparably durable, non magic hammer.
disagree. Kingdom come superman cut his hand on wonder woman's sword just by touching it.
Mjolnir doesn't just perform magical effects, the item itself is made from enchanted uru to make it durable. UN-enchanted uru isn't as durable. Thus, the damage it soaks and dishes out has a magical basis due to the enchantment.
It's also been established that thor can throw the hammer at the speeds he does DUE to the enchantments on it- Thor's base speed is fairly slow but *with mjolnir* he can throw it at lightspeeds.
So, wonder woman's tiara thrown at superman can cut his throat. Touching wonder woman's sword will cut his finger. But a full speed hammer throw to the face by Thor gets shrugged off? It's inconsistent.
Even if we consider that superman would take the same damage a regular person would from an unenchanted weapon, that's STILL a sledgehammer thrown at his face at hundreds of miles an hour. This would kill a man under any circumstances, 100% of the time. not only were bones not broken, he wasn't even bruised, and you can make some very good arguments that mjolnir >>> wonder woman's tiara and sword. Again, Superman cannot pick up Mjolnir, so it's enchantments work on him.
there's no scenario you can come up with where superman wouldn't be paste, here.
Again, this wouldn't apply to nefaria, since nefaria tanks magical damage the same way he tanks every other kind of damage. Superman does not. Yet JLA/Avengers ignored Superman's vulnerability to magic in regards to mjolnir completely- it's simply bad writing.
Originally posted by Space M ummy
disagree. Kingdom come superman cut his hand on wonder woman's sword [b]just by touching it.Mjolnir doesn't just perform magical effects, the item itself is made from enchanted uru to make it durable. UN-enchanted uru isn't as durable.
That's why I said comparably durable hammer, and not "un-enchanted Uru"
So, wonder woman's tiara thrown at superman can cut his throat. Touching wonder woman's sword will cut his finger. But a full speed hammer throw to the face by Thor gets shrugged off? It's inconsistent.
Wonder Womans tiara and sword cutting Superman does not prove Thor's hammer will have a greater effect.
Even if we consider that superman would take the same damage a regular person would from an unenchanted weapon, that's STILL a sledgehammer thrown at his face at hundreds of miles an hour. This would kill a man under any circumstances, 100% of the time.
God thing Superman isn't just any man, than.
there's no scenario you can come up with where superman wouldn't be paste, here. [/B]
The same way he kills Bill, Hulk, Gladiator, Red Hulk, Surfer... Basically, everyone on his level he's ever fought?
Supermans magic weakness is inconsistant, at best, and Thor is NOT simply caving in his head in one shot and calling it a day.
I dont see magic as being so much of a weakness to supes so much as a vulnerability. What I mean is tha if Thor hits him, I dont see him just crumpling to the ground (the magic wont be doing it anyway) like with a kryptonite exposure. Its' just been shown that superman is more susceptible to it than other forms of attack. I know Mjolnir would do more damage than a non magic based attack but thats about it imo anyway.
But if we go by stuff like this: http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/2465/ymirson4.jpg
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg689/scaled.php?server=689&filename=whatwhaty.jpg&res=medium
that would make it seem like if Thor got in one good lick with a lightning charged Mjolnir that would be it. Batman explains that it was the magic that did it to him.
Even with that I dont see it as anything spectacular or unrealistic that superman stopped Mjolnir. It was disgusting to him do it but I wouldnt put outside of his strength capabilities. Even with that "weakness." Now that said I believe that to have been Thor's strongest blow as much as I believe that heat vision that hit him moments before to be supes' strongest HV blast. As in I dont. If Thor had really brought the power down I think its reasonable to believe that Supes isnt stopping it.
Originally posted by cdtm
That's why I said comparably durable hammer, and not "un-enchanted Uru"
My point there is that any damage that mjolnir does would count as "magical damage" since it's enchanted to be stronger than an unenchanted hammer. it's not simply a big hammer that can dish out magic attacks "sometimes."
If the hammer was made of un-enchanted uru, or adamantium this wouldn't be the case.
Wonder Womans tiara and sword cutting Superman does not prove Thor's hammer will have a greater effect.
Wonder woman's tiara and sword prove that magical weapons will damage superman as if he had no special resistance to them. Again, just touching the sword cut his hand. Mjolnir was thrown at his face and struck him full on. The attack is inarguably greater in the case of mjolnir, yet the damage was less?
God thing Superman isn't just any man, than.
right, he's a man with an explicit weakness to magical attacks and weapons, which was not addressed in the crossover.
The same way he kills Bill, Hulk, Gladiator, Red Hulk, Surfer... Basically, everyone on his level he's ever fought?
none of those opponents have a magical weakness. Did you miss the part where I said Nefaria tanking the hit is NOT PIS, since all damage is treated the same? This is NOT the case with superman. a non magical sword will not cut him. A magical sword will. A non magical hammer should barely stun him. A magical hammer should crush his bones.
Supermans magic weakness is inconsistant, at best, and Thor is NOT simply caving in his head in one shot and calling it a day. [/B]
Agreed, it's inconsistent, but yet the weakness is there. Superman cannot even pick up mjolnir and yet at the same time ignores the damage it does as if it was non-magical. This is PIS.
Originally posted by Damborgson
I dont see magic as being so much of a weakness to supes so much as a vulnerability. What I mean is tha if Thor hits him, I dont see him just crumpling to the ground (the magic wont be doing it anyway) like with a kryptonite exposure. Its' just been shown that superman is more susceptible to it than other forms of attack. I know Mjolnir would do more damage than a non magic based attack but thats about it imo anyway.But if we go by stuff like this: http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/2465/ymirson4.jpg
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg689/scaled.php?server=689&filename=whatwhaty.jpg&res=mediumthat would make it seem like if Thor got in one good lick with a lightning charged Mjolnir that would be it. Batman explains that it was the magic that did it to him.
Even with that I dont see it as anything spectacular or unrealistic that superman stopped Mjolnir. It was disgusting to him do it but I wouldnt put outside of his strength capabilities. Even with that "weakness." Now that said I believe that to have been Thor's strongest blow as much as I believe that heat vision that hit him moments before to be supes' strongest HV blast. As in I dont. If Thor had really brought the power down I think its reasonable to believe that Supes isnt stopping it.
Agreed with most of this.
The way Superman and Thor normally fight, they aren't one shotting each other.. If Thor brought his best attack to bear, he could mess Supes up though. Even knock him out in one shot.. But that isn't how he normally fights.
And Supes isn't hitting Thor with his full strength, either, like when he hit Doomsday hard enough to put him down permanently.
Originally posted by cdtm
Agreed with most of this.The way Superman and Thor normally fight, they aren't one shotting each other.. If Thor brought his best attack to bear, he could mess Supes up though. Even knock him out in one shot.. But that isn't how he normally fights.
And Supes isn't hitting Thor with his full strength, either, like when he hit Doomsday hard enough to put him down permanently.
My issue is that given the vulnerability, it's very hard to justify how superman gets up from a full speed unprotected hammer throw to the face without a scratch.
Catching the hammer is easier to justify since he was explicitly trying to defend against the hit, but the shot to the face? no way.
Originally posted by cdtmYep. If Thor let loose on some of the weaker opponents he's fought, Mjolnir would be literally tearing through his opponents.
He can control the strength of the hammer tosses, as well as it's speed.Otherwise, he'd be killing people left and right with them, and that doesn't happen any more than killing class 100's with normal hammer strikes.
Originally posted by cdtm
Was it PIS when Nafaria did it?And Thors hammer would probably hurt more, but no more than it hurts anyone else Thors fought on a similar level. Like Hulk, Gladiator, Hercules, those sorts..
First none of those guys have ever stopped Mjolnir with their bare hands.
Second, that fight was full of PIS. Supes started winning with his Heat Vision, which Thor just took the pain off. Now if you know anything about Thor then You'll know Mjolnir can absorb all Supes heat vision, and direct it back at him added with its own power. If anything that should have been the end of the fight for Supes.
Originally posted by cdtm
He can control the strength of the hammer tosses, as well as it's speed.Otherwise, he'd be killing people left and right with them, and that doesn't happen any more than killing class 100's with normal hammer strikes.
the problem with that logic here is that the hammer:
1.) had to be traveling fast enough for superman to not easily be able to avoid it. for someone with lightspeed reflexes, this is pretty fast.
2.) Thor had no way to know superman should be weak to magical assault. So he should be throwing and swinging it not knowing superman wouldn't be taking hits from mjolnir like he would equivalent strength punches or beams from iron man. Mjolnir should and would hurt him a hell of a lot more, even if he's trying to KO and not kill.
3.) Thor explictly said that even the "mightiest" shouldn't have been able to stop the hammer mid swing and was SHOCKED and disoriented it happened before being KOed. He wasn't pulling punches there.
I'm not saying superman can't beat Thor, since written properly either could win, depending on who's more resourceful. But the way Mjolnir was treated in THIS SPECIFIC fight is inconsistent with the way superman usually takes damage from magical assaults.
First none of those guys have ever stopped Mjolnir with their bare hands.
Nefaria has stopped mjolnir with his bare hands, to be fair. But Nefaria was incredibly powerful during that fight (a "hundred fold" stronger than the class 100 he stole his powers from), and doesn't have any weakness to magic.
Originally posted by Space M ummy
Nefaria has stopped mjolnir with his bare hands, to be fair. But Nefaria was incredibly powerful during that fight, and doesn't have any weakness to magic.
I think Thor could have taken him, if he stopped holding back, or even if he fought like he does against Gladiator or Hulk.
Iron Man was able to match him for a bit using all his suits power, after all, and even stagger him.
Originally posted by Space M ummy
Nefaria has stopped mjolnir with his bare hands, to be fair. But Nefaria was incredibly powerful during that fight (a "hundred fold" stronger than the class 100 he stole his powers from), and doesn't have any weakness to magic.
I meant out of Hulk, Glads and Herc.
I agree Supes can take some against Thor. Just the way they did it was PIS. Mjolnir should have absorbed al Supes HV and Supes should not have been stopping Mjolnir.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I meant out of Hulk, Glads and Herc.I agree Supes can take some against Thor. [b]Just the way they did it was PIS. Mjolnir should have absorbed al Supes HV and Supes should not have been stopping Mjolnir.
And this is what I've been trying to get at. That particular fight as it was written didn't make a whole lot of sense.
I'd have a lot less issue if the writers had used superman's speed advantage to win, etc
