Thor vs Superman

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
You can't just say that.

I'm not just saying it, I'm basing it off his history.

Silver Banshees wail was magic and should have killed him, instead it put him in a coma. Generally, weapons magically enhanced for cutting will cut him, but the effect of other types of magic is a crap shoot.. It ranges from hurting him more than usual, to not really hurting him more than a non magical version of that attack. On average, for Post Crisis Superman magic = drawing some blood, but being far from putting him down.

It's simply too inconsistent to say Thor's magic hammer bypasses his durability, and lets Thor cause much greater damage than he does against anyone else.

Originally posted by Space M ummy
Because Nefaria isn't weak to magic.

Magic Weapons [b]should affect superman just as they would anyone else- he's been cut by wonder woman's magic tiara, for instance.

However, JLA/Avengers had Superman inexplicably taking a full speed hammer throw to the jaw and getting up undamaged, then stopping mjolnir with one hand with thor swinging it.

Mjolnir is one of the most powerful magical items in the Marvel U. Most people can't even pick it up, the enchantments are that strong.

Superman should have ended up with a crushed skull and a broken hand at the very least. [/B]

afraid i'm with cd on this one. superman is affected by magic like anyone else is. it's a misnomer that just because something is 'magical' it would automatically hurt him. cd's right--the hammer blow wouldn't hurt him more than it would hercules or hulk. it's not like touching magic burns him or anything. he's taken full magic blasts from blaze as well as etrigan and other uber magical entities. a bladed magic weapon WOULD cut him, like it would cut anyone without specific protection, so using the sword and tiara as examples doesn't add much to your point. he's vulnerable to spells and blasts (inconsistently vulnerable btw), but a blow from the hammer he could withstand. he's fought plenty of gods in his own books. he does just fine.

Originally posted by cdtm
I'm not just saying it, I'm basing it off his history.

Silver Banshees wail was magic and should have killed him, instead it put him in a coma. Generally, weapons magically enhanced for cutting will cut him, but the effect of other types of magic is a crap shoot.. It ranges from hurting him more than usual, to not really hurting him more than a non magical version of that attack. On average, for Post Crisis Superman magic = drawing some blood, but being far from putting him down.

It's simply too inconsistent to say Thor's magic hammer bypasses his durability, and lets Thor cause much greater damage than he does against anyone else.

👆

Originally posted by cdtm
I'm not just saying it, I'm basing it off his history.

Silver Banshees wail was magic and should have killed him, instead it put him in a coma. Generally, weapons magically enhanced for cutting will cut him, but the effect of other types of magic is a crap shoot.. It ranges from hurting him more than usual, to not really hurting him more than a non magical version of that attack. On average, for Post Crisis Superman magic = drawing some blood, but being far from putting him down.

It's simply too inconsistent to say Thor's magic hammer bypasses his durability, and lets Thor cause much greater damage than he does against anyone else.

Clearly you aren't if you think there's some sort of established way of Superman dealing with magic. It's entirely depended on the writer at this point. Back in the day, it was treated more of a weakness rather than something he isn't as invulnerable against in comparison to typical forces.

I'm not saying that Mjolnir should bypass Superman's invulnerability completely. I'm calling bullshit on you saying that it shouldn't, as if it was conclusive. There is no definitive average for Superman when it comes to magic. It's at the whim of the writer.

I can list various of examples that indicate a single blow from Mjolnir should wreck Superman something fierce due to his mystical vulnerability. I've seen him stay away from a battle because magic affects him as much as it would a regular human but like you said, there's evidence to suggest he shouldn't fare much if any worse than a peer. Which leads me back to my main point. You can't just say it doesn't work that way. Because there's plenty of evidence suggesting it should as well as evidence that says it shouldn't.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
You can't just say it doesn't work that way. Because there's plenty of evidence suggesting it should as well as evidence that says it shouldn't.

Not really. There's more evidence it shouldn't, considering Grundy, Captain Marvel, Wonder Woman, and others have failed to hurt him greatly.. Even under Loeb, and with Superman claiming Cap had the advantage because of magic, all it amounted to was a bloody lip, and Supes caught one of his punches mid swing.

Originally posted by cdtm
Not really. There's more evidence it shouldn't, considering Grundy, Captain Marvel, Wonder Woman, and others have failed to hurt him greatly.. Even under Loeb, and with Superman claiming Cap had the advantage because of magic, all it amounted to was a bloody lip, and Supes caught one of his punches mid swing.

Yes really. Are talking about magically empowered superhumans or mystically enchanted objects? They should be the same, but in comics (For an obvious reason) it's treated differently unless magic is specifically in play such as Captain Marvel's lightning. Even then, mystical creatures ranging from bats to werewolves to enchanted vines have proven to be very effective against Superman.

I also remember Superman being one shotted by a Viking wielding a mystical axe under Loeb. Helps illustrate the difference I talked about.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Yes really. Are talking about magically empowered superhumans or mystically enchanted objects?

We're talking about the difference between blunt force and piercing damage. Supermans record against magic swords, axes, and other piercing weapons is lower than against blunt force damage, like against Blazes rock monster, or Caps magically enhanced fists..

Not to mention, Wonder Woman cutting Superman is as much an effect of its design as it is a "magic weakness", e.g. it's specifically designed or enchanted to cut anything. Same with her tiara. And both objects have cut through beings with no "magic weakness", like gods and Kingdom Come Gog..

Thor's hammer is magic, in that it can create magical effects, but it's not like there's a "hit harder" spell on it. He can charge the hammer with lightning or other effects to cause more damage, but hitting harder is not an inherent ability of his hammers magic. Just like Cap or Adams are powered by magic, but don't have a spell on their fists to hit harder than any class 100 of their strength level could, even though they can charge their fists with lightning for more damage.....

Originally posted by cdtm
We're talking about the difference between blunt force and piercing damage. Supermans record against magic swords, axes, and other piercing weapons is lower than against blunt force damage, like against Blazes rock monster, or Caps magically enhanced fists..

Not to mention, Wonder Woman cutting Superman is as much an effect of its design as it is a "magic weakness", e.g. it's specifically designed or enchanted to cut anything. Same with her tiara. And both objects have cut through beings with no "magic weakness", like gods..

Thor's hammer is magic, in that it can create magical effects, but it's not like there's a "hit harder" spell on it. He can charge the hammer with lightning or other effects to cause more damage, but hitting harder is not an inherent ability of his hammers magic. Just like Cap or Adams are powered by magic, but don't have a spell on their fists to hit harder than any class 100 of their strength level could, even though they can charge their fists with lightning for more damage.....

Piercing damage? I'm almost positive that the character hit him upside the head and Superman was simply knocked out without really any piercing wounds. Captain Marvel knocked him out in like two hits when he magically enchanted his fists with lightning, that's no great disparity, and I don't remember the scene with Blaze. I don't think it's a matter of piercing vs. blunt but rather what stance the writer takes. I've seen Superman knocked out by a magic mace in one hit, or was it by a sword hilt? I don't remember specifically but you get my point.

Stop trying to rationalize that fight using Busieks' logic and apply it to Superman in general. He doesn't think Superman is any more vulnerable to magic than other characters unless there's a specific enchantment. That's fine, but there are plenty of instances that support a different stance. Which once again brings me back to my original point. Taking a single stance on Superman's magic vulnerability and pretending it's conclusive is bullshit which is what you did. There's no hard and fast rule, it all depends on the writers.

No one can conclusively say whether Mjolnir should or shouldn't have more of an effect on Superman with real authority. There's evidence to support both stances, I don't know why you keep pretending otherwise.

In modern day Post Crisis, I think it wouldn't. If for no reason other than we can't have a fight between the two when the magic weakness is in play with Mjolnir. Even back in the day he had a good showing such as the transmutation scene.

Superman has many feats against magic. Thus it is proven that his magical weakness decreases as his will increases. Plus Phantom Stranger granted Superman with extra resistance to magic. He has fought Skyfather beings in their own realm and came out ok and resisted other magical assaults very well. It all depends on the serious nature of the situation at hand. For example, Lois or Jimmy's life being at stake.

Originally posted by Space M ummy
And this is what I've been trying to get at. That particular fight as it was written didn't make a whole lot of sense.

I'd have a lot less issue if the writers had used superman's speed advantage to win, etc

👆

This and also clearly show it was a fight that Could go either way.. Then I would have been fine with Supes winning the fight.

Originally posted by leonidas
cd's right--the hammer blow wouldn't hurt him more than it would hercules or hulk.

And yet you've never seen Herc or even The Hulk stop Mjolnir with their bare hands.

Originally posted by leonidas
it's not like touching magic burns him or anything. he's taken full magic blasts from blaze as well as etrigan and other uber magical entities. a bladed magic weapon WOULD cut him, like it would cut anyone without specific protection, so using the sword and tiara as examples doesn't add much to your point. he's vulnerable to spells and blasts (inconsistently vulnerable btw), but a blow from the hammer he could withstand. he's fought plenty of gods in his own books. he does just fine.

Takes magical blows from Gods and Heralds without being Ko'ed or put down?? Yeah sure. But does he completely stop, embarass and then KO such being with one hand? And a God whose almost as strong as him anyway? No way.

Also no one's addressed my point about it being PIS that Thor didnt just use Mjolnir to absorb all Supes Heat Vison.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And yet you've never seen Herc or even The Hulk stop Mjolnir with their bare hands.

Takes magical blows from Gods and Heralds without being Ko'ed or put down?? Yeah sure. But does he completely stop, embarass and then KO such being with one hand? And a God whose almost as strong as him anyway? No way.

Also no one's addressed my point about it being PIS that Thor didnt just use Mjolnir to absorb all Supes Heat Vison.

Superman by best quantifiable feats is much stronger than Thor. The writer knew this and that's why he portrayed Superman as much stronger than Thor in the comic.

LOL at magic weakness being overplayed. Guess surfer should also be crushed by thor because a magic knife had him bleeding. Magic surpasses everything in comics, Dr. Strange had galactus captive in crimson bands of cyttorak while namor broke it. But suggesting taking only low feats for superman against magic is like taking low feats of Thor's durability. OTOH he can take destroyer's shot undamaged and can get KTFO by U-foes. Classic thor could take celestials shot and got ko'd by a hunter's bullet. Or like taking thor's speed, he can cope with surfer, gladiator and he can have trouble with mongoose, wolverine or spidey. Kal survived a magical blast which ko'd entire league including Diana and Zauriel. Bio-aura was retconned, it's all his own durability like pre-crisis so thor would have a tough time koing superman with hammer shots because kal has taken worse and got right up to fight.

All JLA/Avengers shows us is that in close quarters combat, Superman barely beat Thor and even remarked on just how tough of an opponent Thor was. And Thor had gotten his measure and was pretty confident in a rematch.

At best, all it does is promote the idea of the fight going 6/10 to Clark. It in no way shows Superman being much stronger than Thor.

And Rage's right concerning Superman's aversion/weakness/disadvantage against magic. It really does depend on the arc and writers at the time. It's wildly inconsistent and the showings prove that much.

Personally, I think it's something he can't typically no sell and extremely potent magic has the potential to outright bypass his "invulnerability" (or "armor rating" in RPG terms).

Superman's magical vulnerability is no more a game changer than Thor's perceived lack of speed imo. In any reasonably good fight between the two, neither is really going to be the deciding factor in the end, given Superman's tendency to beat even very powerful mystical foes, and Thor's ability to hang with people like Norrin or Gladiator.

And while I'd honestly believe Superman is stronger than Thor, there's no evidence to suggest that gap is anything more than a small one (assuming it even exists).

Originally posted by abhilegend
LOL at magic weakness being overplayed. Guess surfer should also be crushed by thor because a magic knife had him bleeding. Magic surpasses everything in comics, Dr. Strange had galactus captive in crimson bands of cyttorak while namor broke it. But suggesting taking only low feats for superman against magic is like taking low feats of Thor's durability. OTOH he can take destroyer's shot undamaged and can get KTFO by U-foes. Classic thor could take celestials shot and got ko'd by a hunter's bullet. Or like taking thor's speed, he can cope with surfer, gladiator and he can have trouble with mongoose, wolverine or spidey. Kal survived a magical blast which ko'd entire league including Diana and Zauriel. Bio-aura was retconned, it's all his own durability like pre-crisis so thor would have a tough time koing superman with hammer shots because kal has taken worse and got right up to fight.

I agree with you, but on average several planet busting hits would leave even Superman dazed, if not knocked out. To subscribe to the belief that Superman is far above Thor by making him seem like a non factor is in my opinion flawed reasoning, but whatever.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Superman's magical vulnerability is no more a game changer than Thor's perceived lack of speed imo. In any reasonably good fight between the two, neither is really going to be the deciding factor in the end, given Superman's tendency to beat even very powerful mystical foes, and Thor's ability to hang with people like Norrin or Gladiator.

And while I'd honestly believe Superman is stronger than Thor, there's no evidence to suggest that gap is anything more than a small one (assuming it even exists).

👆

Thor, Hulk, etc. hangs with Norrin and Glads when they aren't using speed on them.

In comics, Superman's average strength is a little above Thor's average or base strength. But at best Superman is a lot stronger than Thor by highest quantifiable feats. But even if they were similar in the strength dept (which they can both hurt each other with their blows) then speed and freeze breath is the main killer here.

Originally posted by h1a8
Thor, Hulk, etc. hangs with Norrin and Glads when they aren't using speed on them.

In comics, Superman's average strength is a little above Thor's average or base strength. But at best Superman is a lot stronger than Thor by highest quantifiable feats. But even if they were similar in the strength dept (which they can both hurt each other with their blows) then speed and freeze breath is the main killer here.

them being able to hurt each other isn't as much a sole measure of strength as it is superman or thor being strong enough to bypass the other's durability.

I'm not saying you in particular, but there's a trend on the forum when someone hurts someone else with a punch to say "person x is as strong as person y" when said characters' strength and durability aren't always the same.

even if thor wasn't as strong as superman, he's still more than strong enough to hurt, injure and kill him. that's all he needs.

if you're going to use speed as an advantage for superman, then thor gets the ability to exploit superman's magical vulnerability.

Originally posted by -Pr-
them being able to hurt each other isn't as much a sole measure of strength as it is superman or thor being strong enough to bypass the other's durability.

I'm not saying you in particular, but there's a trend on the forum when someone hurts someone else with a punch to say "person x is as strong as person y" when said characters' strength and durability aren't always the same.

even if thor wasn't as strong as superman, he's still more than strong enough to hurt, injure and kill him. that's all he needs.

if you're going to use speed as an advantage for superman, then thor gets the ability to exploit superman's magical vulnerability.

That was my point. That strength doesn't matter here since both can damage each other with their blows. All that matters are the other aspects in the fight, like speed, freeze breath, magical weakness (although it's debatable how much Superman would be weak to Thor's magic as he has various degrees of resistance against magic).