Originally posted by Genesis
When doesn't he have a techno cold? The prick coughs all the time.Regardless, Kit had enough skill to defeat him. It's canon and I don't think it's luck.
I'd attribute Kenobi's victory against Grievous in ROTS to be closer towards luck.
I wouldn't say Obi's victory was luck. I mean, he had a lot of luck fighting Maul and Anikan, but winning against Grievous wasn't.
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
I wouldn't say Obi's victory was luck. I mean, he had a lot of luck fighting Maul and Anikan, but winning against Grievous wasn't.
Anakin was one of the fights where he dominated using raw skill. With Grievous, he was hanging off the edge of a platform and force pulled that blaster just in time.
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
He was lucky that Anakin wasn't focused, made a stupid mistake and had the area to his advantage. It would have been totally different in a place like Tatooine.I wouldn't say he 'dominated' the fight. He was being forced back the entire time.
He was being forced back? Kenobi practices Soresu. It's a style relying heavily on defense. Also, that fight wasn't luck. Anakin was outclassed and outmaneuvered. He lost because of inferior skill. He was fairly even with Kenobi but, eventually, Kenobi gained the upper hand.
Originally posted by Genesis
He was being forced back? Kenobi practices Soresu. It's a style relying heavily on defense. Also, that fight wasn't luck. Anakin was outclassed and outmaneuvered. He lost because of inferior skill. He was fairly even with Kenobi but, eventually, Kenobi gained the upper hand.
False.
Insofar as he lost, it was due to the environmental the fight took place in and the psychological trauma he had just experienced. I think it is obvious that he was overconfident, arrogant and foolish. It was not a lack of skill that cost him the day.
From the RotS novelization:
Anakin is equal or superior to Kenobi:
Blade-to-blade, they were identical. After thousands of hours in lightsaber sparring, they knew each other better than brothers, more intimately than lovers; they were complementary halves of a single warrior.In every exchange, Obi-Wan gave ground. It was his way. And he knew that to strike Anakin down would burn his own heart to ash.
Exchanges flashed. Leaps were sideslipped or met with flying kicks; ankle sweeps skipped over and punches parried. The door of the control center fell in pieces, and then they were inside among the bodies. Consoles exploded in fountains of white-hot sparks as they ripped free of their moorings and hurtled through the air. Dead hands spasmed on triggers and blaster bolts sizzled through impossibly intricate lattices of ricochet.
Obi-Wan barely caught some and flipped them at Anakin: a desperation move. Anything to distract him; anything to slow him down. Easily, contemptuously, Anakin sent them back, and the bolts flared between their blades until their galvening faded and the particles of the packeted beams dispersed into radioactive fog.
A roar of the Force blasted Obi-Wan back into a wall, smashing breath from his lungs, leaving him swaying, half stunned. Anakin stepped over bodies and lifted his blade for the kill.
Anakin roared and flew at him, using both the Force and his body to crash Obi-Wan back into the wall once more. His hands seized Obi-Wan's wrists with impossible strength, forcing his arms wide. "I am so sick of your lectures!"Dark power bore down with his grip.
Obi-Wan felt the bones of his forearms bending, beginning to feather toward the greenstick fractures that would come before the final breaks.
Tactics start to matter:
With Anakin's grip on his wrists bending his arms near to breaking, forcing both their lightsabers down in a slow but unstoppable arc, Obi-Wan let go. Of everything.His hopes. His fears. His obligation to the Jedi, his promise to Qui-Gon, his failure with Anakin. And their lightsabers.
Startled, Anakin instinctively shifted his Force grip, releasing one wrist to reach for his blade; in that instant Obi-Wan twisted free of his other hand and with the Force caught up his own blade, reversing it along his forearm so that his swift parry of Anakin's thundering overhand not only blocked the strike but directed both blades to slice through the wall against which he stood. He slid Anakin's following thrust through the wall on the opposite side, guiding both blades again up and over his head in a circular sweep so that he could use the power of Anakin's next chop to drive himself backward through the wall, outside into the smoke and the falling cinders.
Mustafar hummed with death behind his back, only a moment away, somewhere out there among the rivers of molten rock. Obi-Wan let Anakin drive him toward it.It was a place, he decided, they should reach together. Anakin forced him back and back, slamming his blade down with strength that seemed to flow from the volcano overhead. He spun and whirled and sliced razor-sharp shards of steel from the wall and shot them at Obi-Wan with the full heat of his fury. He slashed through a control panel along the walkway, and the ray shield that had held back the lava storm vanished.
"Yes, Anakin, so do I," Obi-Wan said as he sprinted into a leaping dive, making a spear of his blade.Anakin leaned aside and deflected the thrust almost contemptuously; he missed a cut at Obi-Wan's legs as the Jedi Master flew past him.
Obi-Wan turned his dive into a forward roll that left him barely teetering on the rim of a low cliff, just above the soft black sand of the riverbank. Anakin snarled a curse as he realized he'd been suckered, and leapt off his droid at Obi-Wan's back-Half a second too slow.
Obi-Wan's whirl to parry didn't meet Anakin's blade. It met his knee. Then his other knee.
And while Anakin was still in the air, burned-off lower legs only starting their topple down the cliff, Obi-Wan's recovery to guard brought his blade through Anakin's left arm above the elbow. He stepped back as Anakin fell.
Their physical capabilities appear to be nearly identical, with Anakin's superior strength being compensated for by Obi-Wan's greater tactical awareness. In an open field (or a SWVF match) Anakin would beat Obi-Wan. Anakin's superior prowess is visible during the first half of the fight where Obi-Wan is struggling to keep up. It is only when tactics begin to matter (as on the rope/cable portion of the duel) that Kenobi begins to hold his own.
Anakin didn't lose because Kenobi was better than him, he lost because Kenobi was smarter than him. That benefit isn't always applicable.
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
False.
Insofar as he lost, it was due to the environmental the fight took place in and the psychological trauma he had just experienced. I think it is obvious that he was overconfident, arrogant and foolish. It was not a lack of skill that cost him the day.From the RotS novelization:
Anakin is equal or superior to Kenobi:Tactics start to matter:
Their physical capabilities appear to be nearly identical, with Anakin's superior strength being compensated for by Obi-Wan's greater tactical awareness. In an open field (or a SWVF match) Anakin would beat Obi-Wan. Anakin's superior prowess is visible during the first half of the fight where Obi-Wan is struggling to keep up. It is only when tactics begin to matter (as on the rope/cable portion of the duel) that Kenobi begins to hold his own.
Anakin didn't lose because Kenobi was better than him, he lost because Kenobi was smarter than him. That benefit isn't always applicable. [/B]
Thank you.
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
False.
Insofar as he lost, it was due to the environmental the fight took place in and the psychological trauma he had just experienced. I think it is obvious that he was overconfident, arrogant and foolish. It was not a lack of skill that cost him the day.
You were doing good. You had quite an effective post. Then, you said that Anakin lost due to the environment of the fight and his psychological state.
Well, Kenobi was in that environment too and I'm sure having all of your Jedi colleagues get dwarfed AND watching your apprentice choke out his wife and betray you isn't all that psychologically damaging. Kenobi had the same pressure and fought just as valiantly as Anakin. Actually, enough to defeat him. Anakin made a mistake. Any one person with good lightsaber skill does not make a mistake.
Kenobi gained the upper hand and used a tactical advantage to ravage his opponent. In my opinion, he has more skill and is particularly efficient under extreme pressure.
Originally posted by Genesis
You were doing good. You had quite an effective post. Then, you said that Anakin lost due to the environment of the fight and his psychological state.Well, Kenobi was in that environment too and I'm sure having all of your Jedi colleagues get dwarfed AND watching your apprentice choke out his wife and betray you isn't all that psychologically damaging. Kenobi had the same pressure and fought just as valiantly as Anakin. Actually, enough to defeat him. Anakin made a mistake. Any one person with good lightsaber skill does not make a mistake.
Kenobi gained the upper hand and used a tactical advantage to ravage his opponent. In my opinion, he has more skill and is particularly efficient under extreme pressure.
Oh, yeah. Kenobi definitely had the same problems. What with killing one of his mentors and role models, massacring younglings and his colleagues... oh wait. Anakin's mind**** was definitely more severe. I'm not going to argue that Kenobi was pristine to begin with, but he definitely had it easier than Anakin, whose entire worldview and social foundation had just crumbled.
Anyway, I had been commenting on pure ability at swordplay. Kenobi only won because of the location and Anakin's state of mind (which was obviously clouded- he probably wouldn't have tried the stunt he did in the movie that got him cut up without the mind fogging effects of the Darkside). Kenobi's tactical awareness does not make him a superior swordsman; in any other situation Anakin would have torn him apart even faster. (Kenobi was stuck with using a one-off trick to save his own life- the novelization explicitly says that the electrodrive reverse would only work once.)
Bottom line:
Anakin- superior swordsman
Kenobi- superior tactician
In this situation (plus a little PIS) tactics carried the day.
Originally posted by UltimateStryfemace is the creator and master of Juyo/Vaapad. and to be as such one must have mastered all the others.
nope... Bruce Lee is the creator of Jeet Kune Do, yet he only mastered Wing Chun. Although he did learn eurpoean boxing, stickfighting, nunchucks etc, he didn't learn tae kwon do, tai chi, or xiaolin qigong. Therefore Mace may have learned all the forms, but nothing shows that he did.