Originally posted by Red Nemesis
[B]Oh, yeah. Kenobi definitely had the same problems. What with killing one of his mentors and role models, massacring younglings and his colleagues... oh wait. Anakin's mind**** was definitely more severe. I'm not going to argue that Kenobi was pristine to begin with, but he definitely had it easier than Anakin, whose entire worldview and social foundation had just crumbled.
Anyway, I had been commenting on pure ability at swordplay. Kenobi only won because of the location and Anakin's state of mind (which was obviously clouded- he probably wouldn't have tried the stunt he did in the movie that got him cut up without the mind fogging effects of the Darkside).
That's a really poor excuse. The "mind fogging effects" of the dark side? Really? Nothing else came to mind? That doesn't make a lot of sense. Plenty of Sith fight formidably and have been enveloped in the dark side. This isn't why he lost. He lost because of tactical inexperience and an inability to combine tactics with swordplay.
Sure, Anakin was an accomplished duelist. He has amazing skill. Unfortunately, it ends there. He has no tactical awareness when it comes to advantages, defense or timing. That was clear in the film.
Kenobi's tactical awareness does not make him a superior swordsman; in any other situation Anakin would have torn him apart even faster. (Kenobi was stuck with using a one-off trick to save his own life- the novelization explicitly says that the electrodrive reverse would only work once.)
No, I think that's bullshit. We don't know what would happen in any other situation. Kenobi might find a different weakness and use some other structure or "high point" to his advantage. You cannot write it in stone that Anakin would win every where else. It's really ignorant.
Originally posted by Genesis
Have some insight, Red Nemesis. Anakin performed these actions by choice. Kenobi had the entirety of the Jedi stolen from him and was facing someone who he considered to be his brother. This was forced upon him and was probably as equally surprising as it was shocking. Anakin knew that these events were to take place. Shock value = gone.
Originally posted by Genesis
That's a really poor excuse. The "mind fogging effects" of the dark side? Really? Nothing else came to mind? That doesn't make a lot of sense. Plenty of Sith fight formidably and have been enveloped in the dark side. This isn't why he lost. He lost because of tactical inexperience and an inability to combine tactics with swordplay.
Originally posted by Genesis
Sure, Anakin was an accomplished duelist. He has amazing skill. Unfortunately, it ends there. He has no tactical awareness when it comes to advantages, defense or timing. That was clear in the film.
Originally posted by Genesis
No, I think that's bullshit. We don't know what would happen in any other situation. Kenobi might find a different weakness and use some other structure or "high point" to his advantage. You cannot write it in stone that Anakin would win every where else. It's really ignorant.
Obi-Wan barely caught some and flipped them at Anakin: a desperation move. Anything to distract him; anything to slow him down. Easily, contemptuously, Anakin sent them back, and the bolts flared between their blades until their galvening faded and the particles of the packeted beams dispersed into radioactive fog.
Anakin roared and flew at him, using both the Force and his body to crash Obi-Wan back into the wall once more. His hands seized Obi-Wan's wrists with impossible strength, forcing his arms wide. "I am so sick of your lectures!"Dark power bore down with his grip.
Obi-Wan felt the bones of his forearms bending, beginning to feather toward the greenstick fractures that would come before the final breaks.
Oh, he thought. Oh, this is bad.
It was a place, he decided, they should reach together. Anakin forced him back and back, slamming his blade down with strength that seemed to flow from the volcano overhead. He spun and whirled and sliced razor-sharp shards of steel from the wall and shot them at Obi-Wan with the full heat of his fury. He slashed through a control panel along the walkway, and the ray shield that had held back the lava storm vanished.
Three places.
Edit: Interesting. Dooku is not the only combatant in RotS to use the Force offensively during a duel. Put that in your pipe and smoke it Gideon!
Ok. So it isn't shocking. It is completely destabilizing. Anakin just turned his back on his entire way of life and every single member of his 'family' in the galaxy. Kenobi was still lucid enough to maintain Jedi ideals, even intensifying his devotion to the code: He released his attachment to Anakin immediately before using his tactical superiority to pull the match. He was shaken but his code of ethics was still intact.
Oh I see. Kenobi sticking to his moral ideals totally proves he wasn't emotionally stirred by the recent events. Wow, It's like I suddenly understand. Anakin intensified his devotion to a darker code. Darn, this must mean nothing bothered him.
We all know he maintained his Jedi values. Why is it relevant?
The dark side changes one's perceptions of events. It alters one's estimation of the enemy and of one's own abilities. Put simply, it made Anakin's battle awareness narrower than usual. His mind****ed state hampered him greatly- the choice to take the leap is symptomatic of the whole personality change.
He could have successfully accomplished the leap if he performed it properly. It had nothing to do with the dark side clogging his vision. Where is this stated? What evidence do you have that the dark side dampened his abilities in any way? If any way, dark siders get more freedom and ability in their ability. Windu is an example. He actually has to partially tap into the dark side in order to successfully use Vaapad.
Anakin leaped because he's a moron. He didn't leap because the dark side "CL0DED HIZ VISONSZ11\!"
Timing? Defense? These are aspects of swordplay- something that Anakin excelled in. He did not lose to Kenobi because of a deficiency in his capabilities. At all. For the entire duel he is shown to be dominating his former master. Kenobi didn't have a chance.
Oh, he excelled in those greatly. Beautiful timing whilst jumping at Kenobi on that particular hill in Mustafar where he lost his limbs. He had an even greater defense against Kenobi's maneuver during the aforementioned climax in the duel.
He did lose to Kenobi because of a failure within his abilities. No, the two were fairly even. If he had dominated him so purely, he would have won. It seems that way due to the defensive nature of Soresu.
Anakin's skill is superior to Kenobi's. This much is fact: he is overpowering the Jedi for the majority of their duel.
No, It's not fact. When someone has a superiority that is glaring, they're victorious. It is clear they're equals until the end. Your quoting of the novel shows bias. What about when Kenobi had Anakin on his back and was ready to lay down his saber upon him? You also mention after they force push EACH OTHER, only emphasizing the part of the novel where Obi Wan suffers pain from the push.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSwy412nttI
Also, It's not fact or Kenobi would be rolling down that hill looking like an unhappy tree stump. His maneuvers during a duel tell us his capability overall as a duelist.
Obi-Wan simply isn't as good. You may as well say that Mara Jade would give Caedus a run for his money at any given time. After all, she is a smart fighter too... right? The truth is that neither Mara's awareness nor Kenobi's tactics would put them over the top of their respective enemies on a versus thread. As such, for the purposes of this forum, Kenobi < Skywalker.
I'm sorry but you lack evidence to back this up. You conclude that because Anakin is a moron, he'd win in any other situation simply because of raw aggressive dueling prowess. I'm sorry but it is strongly ignorant to assume such a thing. Kenobi is good. He combines tactic with skill. It is why he won. What good is Anakin's strengths in lightsaber dueling if he cannot apply it with the atmosphere?
Originally posted by Genesis
Oh I see. Kenobi sticking to his moral ideals totally proves he wasn't emotionally stirred by the recent events. Wow, It's like I suddenly understand. Anakin intensified his devotion to a darker code. Darn, this must mean nothing bothered him.We all know he maintained his Jedi values. Why is it relevant?
Originally posted by Genesis
He could have successfully accomplished the leap if he performed it properly. It had nothing to do with the dark side clogging his vision. Where is this stated? What evidence do you have that the dark side dampened his abilities in any way? If any way, dark siders get more freedom and ability in their ability. Windu is an example. He actually has to partially tap into the dark side in order to successfully use Vaapad.
Proof Anakin was overconfident:
[movie]
I have the high ground Anakin!
You underestimate my power!
Don't try it!
[Anakin tries it]
Kenobi cuts him up
[/movie]
Had Anakin been free from the influence of the Dark Side he would not have believed that he could jump over his master; Kenobi clearly knew that Anakin wasn't capable of such a feat, Anakin would have been too.
Originally posted by Genesis
Anakin leaped because he's a moron. He didn't leap because the dark side "CL0DED HIZ VISONSZ11\!"
Originally posted by Genesis
Oh, he excelled in those greatly. Beautiful timing whilst jumping at Kenobi on that particular hill in Mustafar where he lost his limbs. He had an even greater defense against Kenobi's maneuver during the aforementioned climax in the duel.
Pshaw.
Originally posted by Genesis
He did lose to Kenobi because of a failure within his abilities. No, the two were fairly even. If he had dominated him so purely, he would have won. It seems that way due to the defensive nature of Soresu.
Originally posted by Genesis
No, It's not fact. When someone has a superiority that is glaring, they're victorious. It is clear they're equals until the end. Your quoting of the novel shows bias. What about when Kenobi had Anakin on his back and was ready to lay down his saber upon him? You also mention after they force push EACH OTHER, only emphasizing the part of the novel where Obi Wan suffers pain from the push.
From your own source:
1:14- Anakin comes close to making Kenobi eat his own saber
1:58- The Force push sends them both flying but Anakin gets up before Obi-Wan and is on him almost before he stands up
2:22- Kenobi takes another kick to the face, putting Anakin one-up (before they had been tied for hits)
2:58- Kenobi takes a savage backhand
3:05- they grapple, the book indicates that Kenobi's arms nearly break
6:07- Anakin actually manages to jump over his master to get onto the platform
6:40- He tries it again, this time with Kenobi in possession of the 'high ground'... it ends poorly
The only time that Anakin's dueling style was inferior to Kenobi's was when his newfound (or at least intensified) arrogance got the better of him. He is better than Kenobi.
Originally posted by Genesis
Also, It's not fact or Kenobi would be rolling down that hill looking like an unhappy tree stump. His maneuvers during a duel tell us his capability overall as a duelist.
Originally posted by Genesis
I'm sorry but you lack evidence to back this up. You conclude that because Anakin is a moron, he'd win in any other situation simply because of raw aggressive dueling prowess. I'm sorry but it is strongly ignorant to assume such a thing. Kenobi is good. He combines tactic with skill. It is why he won. What good is Anakin's strengths in lightsaber dueling if he cannot apply it with the atmosphere?
Anakin is the superior swordsman. This is not contestable: his showings against Dooku surpass Kenobi's (we have an objective measure of talent: they both fought Dooku so we can compare their results) and he was in a position of superiority for the majority of the duel on Mustafar. Nothing indicates that Kenobi is as good as Anakin- the only reason he won was because of Anakin's state of mind and tactical failings. Kenobi wouldn't have a chance in a neutral environment.
The difference between Obi Wan and Anakin, was that Obi Wan was a lot more strong mentally than Anakin. Anakin was in full rage and unable to tame his emotions. Obi Wan, however was able to control his. I thought this was rather obvious. In Anakin's mind he just knew he was a lot more strong than Obi Wan, and a better fighter.
The only reason Anakin lost was because he made the stupid mistake at the end. Not because Obi Wan was a better fighter, because clearly Anakin was getting the best of him more than he Anakin. Anakin was arrogant and made that stupid move, even after being warned.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
The difference between Obi Wan and Anakin, was that Obi Wan was a lot more strong mentally than Anakin. Anakin was in full rage and unable to tame his emotions. Obi Wan, however was able to control his. I thought this was rather obvious. In Anakin's mind he just knew he was a lot more strong than Obi Wan, and a better fighter.The only reason Anakin lost was because he made the stupid mistake at the end. Not because Obi Wan was a better fighter, because clearly Anakin was getting the best of him more than he Anakin. Anakin was arrogant and made that stupid move, even after being warned.
QFT
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Had Anakin been free from the influence of the Dark Side he would not have believed that he could jump over his master; Kenobi clearly knew that Anakin wasn't capable of such a feat, Anakin would have been too.
And what would happened in that case? Would Anakin have still ended up in the lava because Kenobi could simply have blocked the access to the bank of the lava-river? Obi-Wan had simply outmanouvered Anakin - which is the entire point here.
Except that Kenobi's defense was being overloaded: he was 'desperate' to distract Anakin's advance. Later, during their grapple, Anakin nearly broke both his arms. That isn't defense. That's desperation.
Oh wait a second. Obi-Wan's defense doesn't get overloaded when Grievous swings four blades at him with mind blowing speed and superhuman strength. It does get overloaded when Anakin does the same with one lightsaber? I don't think so. And Anakin managed to nearly brake Obi-Wan's arms. I wonder how this is a testament to Anakin's superior swordsman-ship and not caused by his cyborg arm...
The only time that Anakin's dueling style was inferior to Kenobi's was when his newfound (or at least intensified) arrogance got the better of him. He is better than Kenobi.
I'm afraid. Nick Gillard himself and the RotS novel point out that Anakin and Obi-Wan are equals when it comes to ability with a lightsaber. The difference between them lies in Anakin's offensive strength coupled with his Dark Side emotions. Still: As far as raw bladework is concerned, those two are equals.
So you disagree that Anakin was in an altered state of mind? You disagree that his fall to the Dark Side changed his estimation of his own abilities?
And you want to ignore the fact that Kenobi was clearly not feeling well being tasked to kill his brother? In fact when discussing the matter with Yoda, he wanted to go and challenge the Emperor instead (which would most likely have resulted in his certain death) instead of going to kill his best friend. So Kenobi was not troubled in any sense? Him screaming at Anakin and leaving him to die in a lava bath suggests otherwise.
You would argue that Kenobi is the superior swordsman? That is just foolish. Anakin's superior performance during the duel with Dooku and his sheer power during his duel with Kenobi suggest that he is the better swordsman. Kenobi simply couldn't handle him- he had to use other talents and environmental factors to come out on top. In a versus match we generally don't consider environmental factors or PIS in the outcome. Thus, Kenobi < Anakin.
Here it's getting bloody funny.
Superior performance during the duel with Dooku. Let me check. Dooku was instructed not to harm Anakin and knocked Kenobi out while sending Anakin flying through the room with a simple force aided kick. Wow. And of course Anakin also defeated Dooku with superior swordsman-ship. He didn't take advantage of the fact that given into the Dark Side unleashed his full potential for some seconds and then toppled the Sith Lord with superior (cyborg arm and dark side aided) physical strength?
Good to know that.
I might point it out once more: If Anakin utilizes his dark emotions, turning them into Dark side abilities, he is superior to Kenobi in terms of overall combat. Skywalker in his regular shape is Kenobi's equal and Skywalker troubled is inferior to his master, because clearly not having a clear mind.
But this doesn't matter for this discussion here. Anakin unleashing his full power, even for a split second, could potentially defeat any duellist in the PT era, much like DE Luke defeats DE Sidious in a lightsaber duel. That is, however, not a testament to his every-day, every-situation strength, in which he is just an equal to Obi-Wan Kenobi (who would get his ass kicked by the likes of Dooku or Windu). The same would happen to Anakin, unless the cheap plot device of the Dark Side rage kicks in.
And one must love how you attempt to talk Anakin's defeat through Kenobi down as PIS and don't manage to see the fact that Anakin defeating Dooku in RotS was nothing else.
Anakin is the superior swordsman. This is not contestable: his showings against Dooku surpass Kenobi's (we have an objective measure of talent: they both fought Dooku so we can compare their results) and he was in a position of superiority for the majority of the duel on Mustafar. Nothing indicates that Kenobi is as good as Anakin- the only reason he won was because of Anakin's state of mind and tactical failings. Kenobi wouldn't have a chance in a neutral environment.
See above. You're plain and simply wrong with your conclusions. You can't compare the performances against Dooku, unless you leave the part out in which Anakin suddenly becomes a force-demigod in order to defeat the Sith Lord. Under normal circumstances, both would get leveled by Dooku (seen in the SW:CW series). That aside, they are equals under normal conditions which may spawn from the fact that they practiced thousands of hours against each other. In that very fight on Mustafar, Anakin was hindered by his emotions, yes. Still. Unless assuming his demi-godlike force rage "the Zone" state, Anakin isn't superior to Kenobi.
Originally posted by Gideon
Where was Dooku instructed not to harm Anakin?
RotS novel and LoE. Not that it matters, as we see that Anakin, even close to RotS (SW:CW - duel on Tatooine) is not able to defeat Dooku, means his every-day skill is clearly not enough to pull it off.
And Nick Gillard isn't a credible source.(Of course, if we do use him, I get to use his statement that Sidious is a master of every form and every weapon and other fellating statements, so it's a win-win situation for me)
I know that your main concern is to fellate Sidious, Master Fanboy. I don't care but I wonder where the "win win situation" can be found. Taking a single statement from a source that has back up from other sources, doesn't mean that one has to accept every statement coming from that very source.
That the bible is correct when it comes to some historical facts doesn't mean you have to belief every single word in it, right? I wonder how you managed not to get a grasp on that concept by now...
Originally posted by Nai
RotS novel and LoE
Could you be a little more specific? By the way, I recall no such statements. Particularly when Dooku dealt critical injury to Anakin before, at the loss of a major limb. In fact, Sidious sarcastically tells Dooku in the novelization (during Dooku's outrage at Anakin's mechanical replacement), "Perhaps you should have spared his real arm, then."
Not that it matters, as we see that Anakin, even close to RotS (SW:CW - duel on Tatooine) is not able to defeat Dooku, means his every-day skill is clearly not enough to pull it off.
It's actually closer to Attack of the Clones than anything, and Anakin left Dooku on his ass and spared him purely because of concern for Ahsoka. Force-wise, Dooku enjoys an advantage. Saber-wise? Not so much. As the Clone Wars Visual Dictionary says, Dooku revealed the hologram of Ahsoka in order to "regain the upper hand."
That wasn't intended to be a point of contention for you, Nai. I was just commenting that I have no real investment in this argument, because if you win (particularly regarding Gillard), I can use that to my own advantage elsewhere.
In any case, Mister Fanboy isn't that witty. Let's not throw around that particular title, anyways. I don't bring up your career of indiscretions and errors in judgment.
Originally posted by Gideon
Could you be a little more specific? By the way, I recall no such statements. Particularly when Dooku dealt critical injury to Anakin before, at the loss of a major limb. In fact, Sidious sarcastically tells Dooku in the novelization (during Dooku's outrage at Anakin's mechanical replacement), "Perhaps you should have spared his real arm, then."
From the RotS-novel:
Count Dooku watched with clinical distaste as the blue-scanned images of Kenobi and Skywalker engaged in a preposterous farce-chase, pursued by destroyer droids into and out of turbolift pods that shot upward and downward and even sideways.
"It will be," he said slowly, meditatively, as though he spoke only to
himself, "an embarrassment to be captured by him."
The voice that answered him was so familiar that sometimes his very thoughts spoke in it, instead of in his own. "An embarrassment you can survive, Lord Tyranus. After all, he is the greatest Jedi alive, is he not? And have we not ensured that all the galaxy shares this opinion?"
"Quite so, my Master. Quite so." Again, Dooku sighed. Today he felt
every hour of his eighty-three years. "It is ... fatiguing, to play the
villain for so long, Master. I find myself looking forward to an honorable captivity."
Apparently, Dooku - according to this bit - thinks that the plan is to get captured by Skywalker. To archieve that, he obviously has to be defeated by Anakin in the first place, which in turn means that he wasn't allowed to use "everything he could" against the young Jedi - and especially not kill or otherwise defeat Anakin.
One could, of course, argue that Dooku did try everything not to get killed in the last seconds of the fight (the novel at least says so) but this would ignore that he is the one that caused Anakin's short journey over to the Dark Side which was that enabled him to defeat the Sith Lord. A task he and Kenobi were clearly not suited for under normal circumstances.
So every claim to saber fame actually clings to the question whether Anakin is in "the zone" or not. If he's not - and not motivated to go there - he is on par with Kenobi, no matter if he attempts to control his emotions (which weakens him because he has to focus on that task) or is controlled by them (which weakens him because he can't think clearly in that case) - which is both obvious from RotS.
It's actually closer to Attack of the Clones than anything,
Well. You're correct there. The original CW cartoon made Anakin's promotion to Jedi Knight level appear later in the war. My mistake.
and Anakin left Dooku on his ass and spared him purely because of concern for Ahsoka. Force-wise, Dooku enjoys an advantage. Saber-wise? Not so much. As the Clone Wars Visual Dictionary says, Dooku revealed the hologram of Ahsoka in order to "regain the upper hand."
And I can tell you once again: Before coming up with the hologram, Dooku floored Anakin twice. In fact Anakin is still sitting on his ass when Dooku takes it out. So where had Dooku to regain the upper hand? His position looks superior to Anakin's - who sitting on his ass, clearly not ready to fight from there. So Dooku must be the first being able to regain the upper hand from a superior position.
And Anakin only manages to put Dooku on his ass because the Sith Lord was holding his lightsaber in his left hand, and the hologram in his main weapon hand, which didn't allow him to keep on duelling with maximum effort, nor use force powers efficiently.
That wasn't intended to be a point of contention for you, Nai. I was just commenting that I have no real investment in this argument, because if you win (particularly regarding Gillard), I can use that to my own advantage elsewhere.
And I just told you, why that wouldn't work. Please don't tell me that you still didn't get the point.
In any case, Mister Fanboy isn't that witty. Let's not throw around that particular title, anyways. I don't bring up your career of indiscretions and errors in judgment.
It wasn't my intention to be witty. I was merely repeating what you said before. You want to use statements fellating Sidious, which means you want to fellate Sidious, which turns you into a fanboy. The mere fact that you call them "fellating statements" yourself should, technically, prevent you from using them.
And my "career of indiscretions and errors in judgement"? I'd love to see the products of your fantasy regarding that point. Apparently my various lectures to you regarding my style of debating have still not reached you. Sometimes I wonder if you're simply immune to data-input from the outside. [No ill will intented here. Really.]