TPM Maul vs ROTS Kenobi

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
actually, that does make sense. jump over and force push....

aw come on! Maul had a blade in his hand.. if Obi-Wan just jumped over unarmed, by the time he pushes him, maul can easily slice him..

considering Obi-Wan never managed to force push him the whole fight, i dnt see how an unarmed Obi-Wan standing like 2 inches right in front of Maul is going to do it.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
2 good hits? just the one during their duel.. if your talking about pre-suit Vader, then the A<B<C argument clearly doesnt work.. because Obi-Wan was no match for Dooku whom that Anakin beat.

If your talking about machine Vader, well Clone Maul faught him and almost defeated him.

well it was his overconfidence that lead to his death, but I wuldnt call it bad duelling, as the actual lightsaber duel had finished.

actually i was talking about darth maul when i said "one of the greatest sith apprentices", and was refferring to you calling him one of the greatest sith apprentices.

The a>B>c arguement works if a is better then b for the same reason that b is better then c. nows the part where you say "Wtf"

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
aw come on! Maul had a blade in his hand.. if Obi-Wan just jumped over unarmed, by the time he pushes him, maul can easily slice him..

considering Obi-Wan never managed to force push him the whole fight, i dnt see how an unarmed Obi-Wan standing like 2 inches right in front of Maul is going to do it.

maul didn't slice him or even try when he was armed...

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy

Ah- what's easier to land, a kick, or a lightsaber blow? A kick was only shown to have a meaningful effect on a fight during Sidious vs. Mace. Please. Kicks do not indicate superiority.

I think they do

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy

Anakin kicked Obi-Wan several times in the fight, and who won?.

It showed Anakin was winning the fight.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
[B]
Dooku effortlessly kicked Anakin when he force-grabbed Obi-Wan, but who won the fight?]

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
[B]
You see my point, I hope; kicks do not necessarily display superiory to an opponent, as do force pushes. Also, remember; Obi-Wan's kick, unlike Maul's later kick (when he kicked him after the single lightsaber barrage) knocked Maul on the FLOOR. Obi-Wan was simply knocked backwards.

what??? he got one kick in the whole fight, and you keep going on about it... Maul kept his weapon and carried on fighting... and yes Kenobi fell to the floor as well! watch carefully he fell on the floor, and hard! but he lost his weapon, so a force push did a lot there.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
[B]
Qui-Gon vs. Maul was shorter.

actually it wasnt.. he fought him twice.. once before the force fields went down and once after.. the first one lasted a lot longer.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
[B]Now, as you see from this analysis, Maul has actually at no point shown himself to be SUPERIOR to Obi-Wan; rather, Obi-Wan had the advantage for most of the duel, although Maul did overpower him with the 'force flick'. Please. It was a force push like any other. Is that enough evidence pointing to the contrary now?

well no... thats your analysis.. its not the analysis of the fight choreographer, which by the way was Ray Park. and iv already sed Ray Park sed in an interview with Wizard the force push thing was just a way of him not repeating the same moves. so dnt look too much into the fact that Maul ended it with a force push.

also as far as i can see the only point Obi-Wan had the advantage was when he cut his saber and kicked him. that was it. and you can keep going over that one hit all you like.

like iv sed numerous times, obi-wan gave it everything, and so the fight went back and forth for a while, until obi-wan started tiring and let his guard down. you can tell from his grunting and face expressions that he was tiring.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
[B]In theory, Obi-Wan would simply use the force to retrieve his saber and continue fighting.?

urm doubtful... he was on the floor and still rolling back.. Maul would have easily got his saber first.. and easily sliced obi-wan in that position.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
[B]Also, a similar scenario; during the Dooku fight in ROTS, Obi was force pushed in a similar manner by Dooku, and did not lose his saber. Now then- let's compare Maul to Dooku, shall we? Dooku is an experienced, and legendary Jedi Master whose strength in the force is surpassed by a select few. Maul is not one of them.

yes but Dooku didnt disarm Obi-Wan at that point. and even still if Dooku might have been in a position to kill Obi-Wan after that Force Push if Anakin wasnt there.

Why we comparing Maul and Dooku. im a Dooku fan, and know very well Dooku is a league above Maul and Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
maul didn't slice him or even try when he was armed...

he didnt have time.. kenobi was already slicing him with Qui-Gons saber, which Maul didnt know he had. if kenobi went for a push, maul wuld have sliced him..

nd how do u knw he wasnt on the guard for a push?? physical or Force. he was probably just standing there thinking "whats he trying to do?? push me or something???".... he got sliced by a lightsaber because he didnt know kenobi had one so wasnt on guard for that.

this is really stupid and i cant believe im actually debating it.. do you really think kenobi would have even tried that unarmed??? i think he would have rather taken his chances down the pit!

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
he didnt have time.. kenobi was already slicing him with Qui-Gons saber, which Maul didnt know he had. if kenobi went for a push, maul wuld have sliced him..

nd how do u knw he wasnt on the guard for a push?? physical or Force. he was probably just standing there thinking "whats he trying to do?? push me or something???".... he got sliced by a lightsaber because he didnt know kenobi had one so wasnt on guard for that.

It doesn't matter. You can push your one hand forward faster then you can pull back both of your entire arms, then swing forward with a lightsaber. And notice that when Obi-Wan jumped over him Maul didn't even have his hands up. He was just like "lol I have you n- wait... where'd he go?". He would't have been able to gaurd any push, and it's physically impossible to "gaurd" against a push anyway when you're literally two inches away from an edge. You can't "block" a push. The only thing you can do is push back with enough force that you don't lose ground. If Maul couldn't raise his hand up to block one swing, he was not bracing himself to push back with all his might and fall.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
he didnt have time.. kenobi was already slicing him with Qui-Gons saber, which Maul didnt know he had. if kenobi went for a push, maul wuld have sliced him..

nd how do u knw he wasnt on the guard for a push?? physical or Force. he was probably just standing there thinking "whats he trying to do?? push me or something???".... he got sliced by a lightsaber because he didnt know kenobi had one so wasnt on guard for that.

this is really stupid and i cant believe im actually debating it.. do you really think kenobi would have even tried that unarmed??? i think he would have rather taken his chances down the pit!

LMAO we have him debating it.

no, kenobi could take maul unarmed. with both hands tied behind his back. with his teeth.

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
It doesn't matter. You can push your one hand forward faster then you can pull back both of your entire arms, then swing forward with a lightsaber. And notice that when Obi-Wan jumped over him Maul didn't even have his hands up. He was just like "lol I have you n- wait... where'd he go?". He would't have been able to gaurd any push, and it's physically impossible to "gaurd" against a push anyway when you're literally two inches away from an edge. You can't "block" a push. The only thing you can do is push back with enough force that you don't lose ground. If Maul couldn't raise his hand up to block one swing, he was not bracing himself to push back with all his might and fall.

this, however, is true.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I think they do

It showed Anakin was winning the fight.

Dooku was dominating the fight at that point at least.

Err... actually, no. Did you ever trying swordfighting? Chareography, maybe? Do you have any sort of knowledge of actual fighting?

If so, you would know that a kick is used to distance yourself with your opponent or temporarily disbalance him; it indicates that you are incapable of overcoming him- or at least not far enough- so resorting to things other than the saber is necessary. THAT'S what kicks are for. It's not a sign of dominancy. If you look at kicks as an indication of who was dominating the fignt, then you're mistaken.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
what??? he got one kick in the whole fight, and you keep going on about it... Maul kept his weapon and carried on fighting... and yes Kenobi fell to the floor as well! watch carefully he fell on the floor, and hard! but he lost his weapon, so a force push did a lot there.

I realy don't know if you're making stuff up or I'm just mistaken in interpreting what you're saying, but Maul kicked Obi-Wan in the face, who leapt, did a flip, and landed on his legs as if it was nothing. The thing I'm 'going about' is not the kick, but rather what came before it- the saber slice. This actually showed Obi-Wan getting past Maul's defenses WITH A SABER, something Maul DID NOT DO during the fight to Obi-Wan. All he did was kick him and force push him, but never did he get CLOSE to striking him with an actual saber strike. You seem to completely ignore the fact that Maul was forced into a retreat by Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
actually it wasnt.. he fought him twice.. once before the force fields went down and once after.. the first one lasted a lot longer.

In the first one, Maul was simply drawing Qui-Gon away from Obi-Wan in order to finish him quickly in a space that better suits him. The second one was quite brief, actually.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
well no... thats your analysis.. its not the analysis of the fight choreographer, which by the way was Ray Park. and iv already sed Ray Park sed in an interview with Wizard the force push thing was just a way of him not repeating the same moves. so dnt look too much into the fact that Maul ended it with a force push.

also as far as i can see the only point Obi-Wan had the advantage was when he cut his saber and kicked him. that was it. and you can keep going over that one hit all you like.

NO. NO. NO. RAY PARK DID NOT CHOREOGRAPH THE FIGHT! Someone named Nick Gillard did it. Ever heard of him? Incidentally, he happens to be the swordfight choreographer of the entire Prequels. He's the reason why they're so cool; and Ray Park did not do anything. Link me to the interview please...

AND. Ray Park didn't say Obi-Wan wasn't having an advantage, did he? Please. Counter my analysis yourself, thank you.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
like iv sed numerous times, obi-wan gave it everything, and so the fight went back and forth for a while, until obi-wan started tiring and let his guard down. you can tell from his grunting and face expressions that he was tiring.

And Maul was playing with Obi-Wan, of course! No. Maul was damned serious, and if you didn't read my analysis, please see to it. It clarifies that they were not "going back and forth".

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
urm doubtful... he was on the floor and still rolling back.. Maul would have easily got his saber first.. and easily sliced obi-wan in that position.

I doubt it, but, w/e, as we can't say what would happen if this and that and this and that... it's too complicated for this argument.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
]yes but Dooku didnt disarm Obi-Wan at that point. and even still if Dooku might have been in a position to kill Obi-Wan after that Force Push if Anakin wasnt there.

Sorry, I just don't get it. I know Dooku didn't disarm Obi-Wan. Isn't that an indication that Maul's much less-masterful force push would not be capable of doing the same to ROTS Obi-Wan?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Why we comparing Maul and Dooku. im a Dooku fan, and know very well Dooku is a league above Maul and Obi-Wan.

Because I'm explaining why Maul's force push would, logically, not disarm Obi-Wan. Dooku is a league above Maul? Yes. Above Obi-Wan? Debatable, but, w/e.

hey sid boy, anakin kicked obi wan multiple in thier rots duel so what anakin incapable of overcomming him?

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
It doesn't matter. You can push your one hand forward faster then you can pull back both of your entire arms, then swing forward with a lightsaber. And notice that when Obi-Wan jumped over him Maul didn't even have his hands up. He was just like "lol I have you n- wait... where'd he go?". He would't have been able to gaurd any push, and it's physically impossible to "gaurd" against a push anyway when you're literally two inches away from an edge. You can't "block" a push. The only thing you can do is push back with enough force that you don't lose ground. If Maul couldn't raise his hand up to block one swing, he was not bracing himself to push back with all his might and fall.

even if he could push him(which i dnt believe for a second).. but for argument sake say he jumped over and pushed him, and TPM in the process probably becomes the biggest flop of all time, but the point is Maul still has his saber so can jump back up and attack an unarmed Obi-Wan.. Obi-Wan was disarmed.. theres not much he could have done except push him and run!

and whose to say if Maul does get pushed he doesnt simultaneously jump back over to the other side of the pit. yes im getting stupid now, but in my defense theres no where intelligent left to go here.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
LMAO we have him debating it.

no, kenobi could take maul unarmed. with both hands tied behind his back. with his teeth.

you might be right. think about it Obi-Wan jumps over with his hands tied behind his back, and then headbutts Maul into the pit.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Err... actually, no. Did you ever trying swordfighting? Chareography, maybe? Do you have any sort of knowledge of actual fighting?

If so, you would know that a kick is used to distance yourself with your opponent or temporarily disbalance him; it indicates that you are incapable of overcoming him- or at least not far enough- so resorting to things other than the saber is necessary. THAT'S what kicks are for. It's not a sign of dominancy. If you look at kicks as an indication of who was dominating the fignt, then you're mistaken.

ok iv never tried sword fighting so ill believe you on that. iv only got a bit of practice at boxing and grappling, not any armed combat.

so tell me something, when Maul hit Qui-Gon just before he killed him, was he trying to distance himself, of trying to leave him dazzled for an opening. these are jedis, not real sword fighters. i would imagine in a real sword fight a kick wuldnt have much effect, and probably would be you trying to distance yourself. however using the force jedi/sith hits can be quite hard, and certainly disorientate the opponent long enough to create an opening.

do you think Lukes kick to Darth Vader in ROTJ did nothing and that was Luke trying to distance himself. Vader actually shouted after that kick, and fell on his butt. also in the novel and comic adaptation of ROTS Dooku takes Kenobi out with a hard kick.

also Mace won his duel due with a kick, so there are plenty of examples, so i dnt think your real life sword fighting analysis is that relevant here. but i am impressed that you know about real swrod fighting none the less.

besides if we compare it to real martial art moves, then lets face it Maul was the best fighter in the whole series.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy

I realy don't know if you're making stuff up or I'm just mistaken in interpreting what you're saying, but Maul kicked Obi-Wan in the face, who leapt, did a flip, and landed on his legs as if it was nothing.

i never mentioned that kick. that was good fighting by Obi-Wan. but he was making grunting sounds, so i dnt know if we can just assume it was easy for him.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy

The thing I'm 'going about' is not the kick, but rather what came before it- the saber slice.
This actually showed Obi-Wan getting past Maul's defenses WITH A SABER, something Maul DID NOT DO during the fight to Obi-Wan.

well he didnt get entirely past Mauls defense, otherwise Maul would have died at that point. and Maul did get past Obi-Wans defense when he disarmed him twice. I also believe every time Maul kicked Kenobi he got past his defense.. his kicks were in the face.. you cant say a kick in the face is just to distance him, its to do him harm.. and it did him harm by making him hit hard agianst the floor hard enough to disarm him.

and your still going on about that one hit Obi-Wan got in the whole fight.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
[B]
All he did was kick him and force push him, but never did he get CLOSE to striking him with an actual saber strike..

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
[B]
Because I'm explaining why Maul's force push would, logically, not disarm Obi-Wan. Dooku is a league above Maul? Yes. Above Obi-Wan? Debatable, but, w/e.

Dooku completely humiliated Obi-Wan... it looked as though Obi-Wan wasnt even good enough to even COMPETE with Dooku.

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
It doesn't matter. You can push your one hand forward faster then you can pull back both of your entire arms, then swing forward with a lightsaber.

wasnt really much room between them for him to push his hand forward.(like 2 inches).. and maul dint need to "pull back both entire arms, then swing forward with a lightsaber" ... he just needed to push his lightsaber hand a tiny bit forward.

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk

If Maul couldn't raise his hand up to block one swing, he was not bracing himself to push back with all his might and fall.

he didnt brace himself for a swing because he didnt knw Kenobi had a lightsaber. If Maul was really as slow as your making out, then Obi-Wan would have just killed him right at the beginning of the fight.

Blax's script fot TPM : "as maul ignites his deadly double bladed weapon, he just stands there and watches Obi-Wan jump at him and stab him.." to be continued..

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Called one of the deadliest sith apprentices in history of a title that dates back to the ancient of Simus training Sadow.

The best lightsaber duelist prior to TPM realized he could not have beaten him and had to try a suicidal technique. And Anoon's apprentice who has beaten Obiwan (shortly before TPM) in training duels tried a similar technique.

Darth Power asked me to reply to this, so I'll reply to it before I go counter his points.

Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar and Saesee Teen were also 'some of the best swordsman ever produced by the order'. Please. ANOON WAS NOT THE STRONGEST SABER DUELIST. If you insist on claiming that's the truth... well, it basically means Maul > Yoda in terms of saber skills. I find that VERY hard to believe. Personally, I think it was the typical author exaggerration, as I've clarified previously. There's nothing to indicate he did actually possess such tremendous saber skills.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
After originally being brought to his knee by force lightning from a force witch and killed her while he still was being shocked.

While he still had an injured leg he fought Qui-gon and obiwan and he killed "one of the most able duelists in the order" in Qui-gon Jinn and unarmed Obiwan and had him hanging for his life.

Single handedly killed the vigos of the Black Sun.

Shown incredibly fast reflexes in shadow hunter. He has been trained in the martial arts, and is probably physically stronger than Obiwan.

Trained by the most powerful sith lord in history.

It's all very impressive. I did not deny the fact that Maul is an extremely talented fighter; but nevertheless, these examples do not state that he > Obi-Wan. The lightning- it's endurance, pain resistance. Maul's a beast, he can resist pain and the likes... it's nothing too special, especially it was merely a witch and not even a true Sith.

Err... I didn't notice him exactly limping in his fight. Are you sure he was injured? I see no canonical proof of that.

Please. 'Fast reflexes', speed, and such, were all common traits used by Jedi and Sith alike. Sidious was known for moving as a blur of speed. Indeed, it's only so likely he trained his apprentice to use that. The fact that he was trained by Sidious means next to nothing; Sidious never intended to keep Maul as a permanent apprentice. Logically, he would not teach him the same amount of dark side secrets and battle techniques he would teach Vader.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
The Dark Side Sourcebook-Darth Maul
"Darth Maul was taken offworld and indoctrinated into the ways of the dark side, trained by Darth Sidious in not only Sith lore, but in the Jedi arts. Any display of fear on his part was punished with vicious retribution. Any hint of mercy in his character was rewarded with severe cruelty. One those rare occasions when he relaxed his guard, his master nearly killed him to remind him that a Sith can never afford a moment of rest. After years of this kind of treatment, Darth Maul was absolutely ruthless-a perfect Sith weapon. By the
time he reached adolescence, Darth Maul was already a hardened, remorseless killer."

Dark Side Sourcebook -Darth Maul
"Maul's final test as a Sith apprentice occurred on an isolated Outer Rim World. Abandoned there by Darth Sidious, he was told that he had to survive on his own until Sidious returned a month later, all
the while being hunted by hordes of deadly assassin droids. Maul fought as best as he could, but exhaustion and hunger finally took their toll, and one of the tireless droids finally wounded him badly enough that he felt he could not go on. At that point, Darth Sidious returned and challenged his apprentice to a lightsaber duel, telling Maul that he had secretly been training a second apprentice in case Maul failed his final test-which, by failing to kill Sidious in the duel, he just had. Anger and hatred welled up in Maul, and he drew renewed strength from the dark side. Hurling himself at Darth Sidious, he nearly bested his master with a flurry of deadly lightsaber blows. Sidious barely deflected them all."

Though the latter statement is a more of a stretch he was able to take Sidious by surprise with the ferocity of his attacks and at one point was able to bite Sidious.

Then the resurrection Maul was able to almost kill Vader but even though it was way after after tpm it is still a worthy point.

So yea the idea that Maul dies in 30 seconds is a very hard one to swallow.

Oh and Blax didn't Ventress get pass his defense?

That's an exaggeration; and it merely established Maul as a very potent assassin. He was strong, but since there is no source definetly clarifying how strong he was, we can only use the fact that he's called a powerful tool of the dark side.

It's true he was capable of taking Sidious on by surprise; however, Sidious disarmed him and Maul's persistent biting only showed defiance, not any particular skill. Wouldn't Sidious be capable of beheading Maul at that point? I think he should've been, but Maul's persistence was what caused him to bite Sidious.

The resurrection Maul fought against an untrained Darth Vader, a mere shadow of hid former self, the former self that, I may add, was pwned by Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Darth Power asked me to reply to this, so I'll reply to it before I go counter his points.

Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar and Saesee Teen were also 'some of the best swordsman ever produced by the order'. Please. ANOON WAS NOT THE STRONGEST SABER DUELIST. If you insist on claiming that's the truth... well, it basically means Maul > Yoda in terms of saber skills. I find that VERY hard to believe. Personally, I think it was the typical author exaggerration, as I've clarified previously. There's nothing to indicate he did actually possess such tremendous saber skills.

It's all very impressive. I did not deny the fact that Maul is an extremely talented fighter; but nevertheless, these examples do not state that he > Obi-Wan. The lightning- it's endurance, pain resistance. Maul's a beast, he can resist pain and the likes... it's nothing too special, especially it was merely a witch and not even a true Sith.

Err... I didn't notice him exactly limping in his fight. Are you sure he was injured? I see no canonical proof of that.

Please. 'Fast reflexes', speed, and such, were all common traits used by Jedi and Sith alike. Sidious was known for moving as a blur of speed. Indeed, it's only so likely he trained his apprentice to use that. The fact that he was trained by Sidious means next to nothing; Sidious never intended to keep Maul as a permanent apprentice. Logically, he would not teach him the same amount of dark side secrets and battle techniques he would teach Vader.

That's an exaggeration; and it merely established Maul as a very potent assassin. He was strong, but since there is no source definetly clarifying how strong he was, we can only use the fact that he's called a powerful tool of the dark side.

It's true he was capable of taking Sidious on by surprise; however, Sidious disarmed him and Maul's persistent biting only showed defiance, not any particular skill. Wouldn't Sidious be capable of beheading Maul at that point? I think he should've been, but Maul's persistence was what caused him to bite Sidious.

The resurrection Maul fought against an untrained Darth Vader, a mere shadow of hid former self, the former self that, I may add, was pwned by Obi-Wan.

OBI WAN DID NOT PWN VADER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!(mustafar fight)

i think he controlled the fight, but it could have gone either way, so depending on exactly what you mean, i think i agree with you MOC.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Darth Power asked me to reply to this, so I'll reply to it before I go counter his points.

Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar and Saesee Teen were also 'some of the best swordsman ever produced by the order'.

The quote regarding him being one of the deadliest sith apprentices in history is only one of my points. And obviously those 3 jedi were really good but they were facing the most powerful sith in history in both force and saber skills so that also came into play.

Please. ANOON WAS NOT THE STRONGEST SABER DUELIST. If you insist on claiming that's the truth... well, it basically means Maul > Yoda in terms of saber skills. I find that VERY hard to believe. Personally, I think it was the typical author exaggerration, as I've clarified previously. There's nothing to indicate he did actually possess such tremendous saber skills.

It's all very impressive. I did not deny the fact that Maul is an extremely talented fighter; but nevertheless, these examples do not state that he > Obi-Wan.

The lightning- it's endurance, pain resistance. Maul's a beast, he can resist pain and the likes... it's nothing too special, especially it was merely a witch and not even a true Sith.

That's an exaggeration; and it merely established Maul as a very potent assassin. He was strong, but since there is no source definetly clarifying how strong he was, we can only use the fact that he's called a powerful tool of the dark side.

It's true he was capable of taking Sidious on by surprise; however, Sidious disarmed him and Maul's persistent biting only showed defiance, not any particular skill. Wouldn't Sidious be capable of beheading Maul at that point? I think he should've been, but Maul's persistence was what caused him to bite Sidious.

Two things !) how may people do you actually think are even capable to touch him or hit with a kick let alone be able to physically sink their teeth into for more than a split second?

Err... I didn't notice him exactly limping in his fight. Are you sure he was injured? I see no canonical proof of that.

Please. 'Fast reflexes', speed, and such, were all common traits used by Jedi and Sith alike. Sidious was known for moving as a blur of speed. Indeed, it's only so likely he trained his apprentice to use that.Vader.

I posted the source of my argument already on why his reflexes were fast and the fact that the size of the room came into play a few pages ago so I see no reason to repeat yet another one of my points.

The fact that he was trained by Sidious means next to nothing; Sidious never intended to keep Maul as a permanent apprentice. Logically, he would not teach him the same amount of dark side secrets and battle techniques he would teach Vader

WRONG, do you think Sidious would select someone to his apprentice and eventually be able to continue the tradition as is the way of the sith that was not extremely skilled or powerful. Maul's training speaks for itself. And last I checked Maul's training began in secret when Plaugeis was still alive and continued for a long period of time before Sidious even knew that Anakin existed. So Maul was originally intended to be his permanent apprentice unless you can prove that even when Maul was a child and taken in by Sidious (around 53 BBY) that Sidious knew of Anakin decades before his birth, it is very unlikely. So no Maul might not have learned as much for a few reasons, one is that Vader was Sidious's apprentice for a longer period of time.

The resurrection Maul fought against an untrained Darth Vader, a mere shadow of hid former self, the former self that, I may add, was pwned by Obi-Wa

Darth Power asked me to reply to this, so I'll reply to it before I go counter his points.

And at to my Vader point above^

The fact that he was trained by Sidious means next to nothing; Sidious never intended to keep Maul as a permanent apprentice. Logically, he would not teach him the same amount of dark side secrets and battle techniques he would teach Vader.

Elite Hunter covered most of this pretty well, but I need to get this out of my system.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar and Saesee Teen were also 'some of the best swordsman ever produced by the order'. Please. ANOON WAS NOT THE STRONGEST SABER DUELIST. If you insist on claiming that's the truth... well, it basically means Maul > Yoda in terms of saber skills. I find that VERY hard to believe. Personally, I think it was the typical author exaggerration, as I've clarified previously. There's nothing to indicate he did actually possess such tremendous saber skills.

And I've been over this with you guys before; technical superiority does not mean overall dueling superiority. Maul's training was absolutely insane, and at 22 he was a "high-level master of multiple forms." There's no question that he was practicing far more than Yoda had in any recent stretch of time, so it wouldn't be far-fetched at all to say that he and Anoon were more technically skilled than Yoda.

I'm also curious with the staggering level of disregard you have for established canon. You people treat the third-person narrative claiming Sidious to be the most powerful Sith Lord in history like gospel, but something stated by an omniscient narrator can be negated by your incredulity? Um, no.

Err... I didn't notice him exactly limping in his fight. Are you sure he was injured? I see no canonical proof of that.

That's an exaggeration;

Fact when you agree, hyperbole when you don't. Nice.

The resurrection Maul fought against an untrained Darth Vader, a mere shadow of hid former self, the former self that, I may add, was pwned by Obi-Wan.

And the implied ABC argument? Not good.