TPM Maul vs ROTS Kenobi

Originally posted by Faunus

And I've been over this with you guys before; technical superiority does not mean overall dueling superiority. Maul's training was absolutely insane, and at 22 he was a "high-level master of multiple forms." There's no question that he was practicing far more than Yoda had in any recent stretch of time, so it wouldn't be far-fetched at all to say that he and Anoon were more technically skilled than Yoda.

You have just proved you are a total idiot.

When you learn to cite sources, read, and, uh, think, you get back to me. With, you know, a "rebuttal."

Until then, do everyone a favor and shut the f*ck up.

fine!
rots novelization:
Yoda had become the most powerful enemy the darkness had ever known.

Sideous mastered all VI forms and was equal to yoda. Are you implying that maul and anoon are better then sideous?

Are you trying to be daft? Or did you seriously miss the past twelve posts I've made detailing the meaning of "technical skill"? I never once said that they could beat him, and I believe I stressed the Bane v. Kas'im scenario as an example at least twice as to why Force power and mastery matter as much or more than pure technique.

Read. People should be flogged for being this redundant.

actually i read, and i see you saying something about how technical skill is different and-blah blah blah

if someone has more technical skill then yoda, and then gets killed by someone with 1/8 the technical skill in a dumb, overconfident, cocky, surprised, unreflexive move, then i am seeing that your arguement has very little impact on the actual arguement..

What exactly are you trying to prove when you say that anoon could beat yoda in a posh fencing match with foils and electric jackets because he has perfect swordfighting tecnique?

And #2 who are you to say this? where is the proof? the quotes? the substantiate? You are speculating that they are equal or more tecnically skilled then yoda, so what has yoda been doing while training jedi for the last 800 years? are you saying that someone who might have lived a mere, say, 30 years is more technically skilled because they practiced more?

Once more i ask, what are you trying to prove? its been established that rots kenobi beats maul. This thread has gotten off topic and needs to be closed.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Okay, let's quit analyzing the TPM Duel and move on to Obi-Wan vs. Maul later on ^^.

Now for an argument... no problem. In his fight against Maul- as I've proven above, they were most definetly evenly matched

yes sooo evenly matched that Obi-Wan ends being disarmed and thrown down a pit.. no im afraid you havent proved that.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy

(though it was only because Obi-Wan was using his anger), but at that point, Obi-Wan was using Ataru- the same lightsaber form utilized by Yoda. However, at that point, Obi-Wan, despite being proficient in it, WAS NOT A MASTER in the usage of Ataru. If he coudl use an umastered form and some anger to match with martial arts, Juyo, Double-Lightsaber Maul, I'm pretty confident Obi-Wan's later incarnation will also succeed.

did Obi-Wan ever become a Master of Ataru?? iv never seen any evidence to suggest he progressed in it any more than his PM self. Maul on the other hand was a high level master of multiple lightsaber forms.

and it wasnt a bit of anger.. it was a lot of anger.. which Maul fed off. and since me and many other people are not agreeing that Obi-Wan did match Maul in that last fight, this argument will not work on us at least.

also ROTS Kenobi is not gna use his anger against Maul. by this time he was a very cool headed fighter.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy

Thirteen years after this incident- Obi-Wan has become the greatest known master of another form, Soresu, mastering it to the highest possible degree. He was capable of handling barrages from Anakin, Grievous, and other extremely vicious and aggressive fighters- something that fits Maul's description, no? He fights similarly to these people.

Yes we all know Kenobi was the master of Soresu.. thats his biggest plus point in this fight. Anakin was not a Juyo Master. and Grevious was not a Force user. So the comparisons not that similar. However your point that Kenobi can take a huge barrage of hits is valid. though he did not handle Anakin easily.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy

However, Maul fights similarly to Anakin, with a headstrong, somewhat flamboyant and aggressive style. It's these styles that Soresu was created to be the counter of, along with blaster technology- and thus, I see it as Obi-Wan's Soresu, aside from being on a totally different tier than his TPM Ataru, being the perfect counter to Maul's version of Juyo (but maybe not Sidious' version of it).

A perfect counter for Mauls Juyo, but not for Sidious's. problem is your just making this up. Maul had Mastered Juyo. a form vii combat style. the deadliest lightsaber form. yes Kenobi can probably handle his attacks being the master of soresu, but your gna have to prove that he can handle a form vii master with ease. as far as i can see it would only be with great difficulty.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy

Now, you used a list of Maul's skills... I'll use some of Kenobi's too, alright? He still has his Ataru skills, using them for offense occasionally, as seen in his fight against Vader. He has knowledge of Shii-Cho, so much that he managed to dupe Dooku, a far more experienced and seasoned combatant than Maul, to think he was using a mixture of it and Ataru- effective, isn't it?

again Maul is a High Level Master of Multiple Lightsaber Forms. he can probably use Ataru and Shii-Cho better than Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy

He also has knowledge, as indicated by his usage of the high ground, of Sokan, a technique designed to learn how to take the environment to one's own advantage.?

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
He was acknowledged by Mace Windu, second only to Yoda (arguably) in terms of lightsaber skills as an incredible master of the simple and powerful Soresu.

yes we know. Obi-Wans good at Soresu. ur saying as if this on its own will beat Maul. it wnt. Soresu has no attack. you need to play a different record.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy

Is that enough? Is there any indication Maul would be capable of standing against Obi-Wan without being delimbed and disarmed thirty second into the fight? I don't think so.

whoooaaa??? where did this 30 second claim come from exactly. Maul would have to make a mistake or let his guard down in 30 seconds for this to happen, becuase Obi-Wans attack is nowhere near as deadly as Mauls Form VII. And I doubt a Form VII Master would be making a mistake or letting his guard down so soon into the fight.

Apologies for my absence. I was, unfortunately, necessary due to reasons that I will not elaborate upon now. Anyway, moving on:

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
yes sooo evenly matched that Obi-Wan ends being disarmed and thrown down a pit.. no im afraid you havent proved that.

Actually, I have. You have yet to throw off my analysis of the fight- or can you do better than that? If you really think that Maul > TPM Obi-Wan in such a blatant manner, prove it yourself. I've done my analysis, and until you can counter it- step-by-step- you can't say 'lol Maul pwns Obi-Wan'. Maul used an opening in Obi-Wan's defense, and it succeeded very effectively. Obi-Wan, however, was fighting very equally with Maul- while Maul did beat him, Obi-Wan was fighting just as well as he was (arguably even better due to his use of rage).

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
did Obi-Wan ever become a Master of Ataru?? iv never seen any evidence to suggest he progressed in it any more than his PM self. Maul on the other hand was a high level master of multiple lightsaber forms.

Err... no, he didn't. But his Ataru skills at TPM-time were near-mastery- weaker than Qui-Gon's (sorry for my 'prove it' statement previously... it was rather dumb of me, I admit.) master Ataru skills, and- with the advantage of his anger- allowed him to fight equally with Maul using only an umastered form against Maul's 'mastery of multiple lightsaber forms'. I kind of think that this says a lot about Maul's supposed lightsaber skills that were insufficient to overcome Obi-Wan's unmastered form.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
and it wasnt a bit of anger.. it was a lot of anger.. which Maul fed off. and since me and many other people are not agreeing that Obi-Wan did match Maul in that last fight, this argument will not work on us at least.[B]

"WHICH MAUL FED OFF". Do you not realize that this actually means that Kenobi's anger worked against him? Maul used to his own advantage, as Obi-Wan states, despite the temporary boost of power against Obi-Wan.

And will you please, instead of using Maul's statements of power, actually prove that my analysis of the fight is incorrect? Thank you.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
[B]also ROTS Kenobi is not gna use his anger against Maul. by this time he was a very cool headed fighter.

Due to this reason, Obi-Wan's complete mastery of Soresu, near mastery of Ataru, Shii-Cho knowledge, and Sokan skills will bond together fluidly, forming a complex form he was shown to use several times. If his Ataru skills were a match for Maul alone... think of his full repetoire of forms against Maul. Logically, Obi-Wan will completely and utterly outclass Maul.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yes we all know Kenobi was the master of Soresu.. thats his biggest plus point in this fight. Anakin was not a Juyo Master. and Grevious was not a Force user. So the comparisons not that similar. However your point that Kenobi can take a huge barrage of hits is valid. though he did not handle Anakin easily.

A perfect counter for Mauls Juyo, but not for Sidious's. problem is your just making this up. Maul had Mastered Juyo. a form vii combat style. the deadliest lightsaber form. yes Kenobi can probably handle his attacks being the master of soresu, but your gna have to prove that he can handle a form vii master with ease. as far as i can see it would only be with great difficulty.

Anakin was a master of Djem So, Shien, and had some knowledge of Ataru. Anakin was the chosen one. Anakin had more raw force power than any character in the saga. Anakin was using the full force of his rage.

And Obi-Wan beat him. You YOURSELF said that Anakin > Maul, and since they fight similarly- not the same way, but similarly- using fast barrages of attacks, albeit in different manners- Obi-Wan should be able to handle Maul's barrages with relative ease in comparison to Anakin's.

Grievous, meanwhile, was a machine with four lightsabers and agility beyond what a normal human can hope to handle. He also used lightning fast flurries to overcome his opponents. That's SIMILAR to Maul...

Making this up? Each one of my posts stated why his style would be the perfect counter to Maul's. Obi-Wan's speciality is taking out overconfident youths through their mistakes, trapping them in their own too-brutal offense and subsequently delimbing them. It's called the 'wait them out' strategy. Maul's juyo was flamboyant and aggressive, exactly what Obi-Wan's style is all about countering. Oh, and by the way... I stated it was not the perfect counter to Sidious because Sidious fights more cunningly and with more control. That's why Dooku is a perfect match against Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
again Maul is a High Level Master of Multiple Lightsaber Forms. he can probably use Ataru and Shii-Cho better than Obi-Wan.

Oh? Really? And where, exactly, did you find this information? Other than where it stated he's a high master of multiple lightsaber forms, is there any source depicting Maul using anything but Juyo? Sorry, but saying he can use it better than Obi-Wan, with absolutely no proof backing that up, is pure- and complete- hyperbole. If he could use Ataru better than Obi-Wan, why did Obi-Wan's simple, inferior Ataru pose such a match to Maul?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
yes we know. Obi-Wans good at Soresu. ur saying as if this on its own will beat Maul. it wnt. Soresu has no attack. you need to play a different record.

No, I don't. You need to stop telling me what to do, and stop ignoring the thousands of reasons that I posed explaining WHY Obi-Wan's Soresu would be a perfect match to Maul.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
whoooaaa??? where did this 30 second claim come from exactly. Maul would have to make a mistake or let his guard down in 30 seconds for this to happen, becuase Obi-Wans attack is nowhere near as deadly as Mauls Form VII. And I doubt a Form VII Master would be making a mistake or letting his guard down so soon into the fight.

Then Obi-Wan will MAKE him let his guard down. Trapping one in their own offense is a very potent weapon, and combine feints and acrobatics into that, and you can understand why Obi-Wan's skills are that far beyond Maul's. And where did you decide Obi-Wan is less deadly than Maul? Prove it. Explain to me why, other than using vague statements, his Juyo would be such a strong match to Obi-Wan.

Now then, for Faunus' and Elite Hunter's assessments of me ignoring canon and such in the Darth Vader thing, I'll admit I exaggerrated when I said Darth Vader was untrained. And isn't 'pulling a Kas'im' legitimate? Is there anything wrong with catching your opponent off guard? Not in my book. And other than continuously telling me my ABC arguments are false, tell me why they're false. If his leg really was injured, it obiviously didn't show... I mean, someone with an injured leg can't exactly do head-level kicks. I KNOW. I've been in karate for 9 years and I still have difficulty doing a good head-level kick. Especially if my leg is injured.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
OBI WAN DID NOT PWN VADER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!(mustafar fight)

Oh, I agree ^^. I was simply pulling off an exaggeration. I'm personally of the opinion that Anakin's skills were beyond Obi-Wan's, but Obi-Wan's sokan, intelligence, and Soresu won him the fight.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy

Making this up? Each one of my posts stated why his style would be the perfect counter to Maul's. Obi-Wan's speciality is taking out overconfident youths through their mistakes, trapping them in their own too-brutal offense and subsequently delimbing them. It's called the 'wait them out' strategy. Maul's juyo was flamboyant and aggressive, exactly what Obi-Wan's style is all about countering. Oh, and by the way... I stated it was not the perfect counter to Sidious because Sidious fights more cunningly and with more control. That's why Dooku is a perfect match against Obi-Wan.

So that is much shorter than the anakin-obi-wan fight, but i think that is where it would end up.
but i disagree b/c i don't think that TPM Obi-wan was anywhere near the level of Maul. My main reasoning is that Maul had just dispatched Obi-Wan's Master, and done it with only one display of weakness (getting kicked off the girder) master>padawan
That's kinda how it works.

Another thing that will come into play with juyo is the fact that none of the jedi have have enough knowledge of the form to be considered proficient in it let alone a master. Yes, Obiwan fought Maul but that was over a decade beforehand and I highly doubt that he would call much if any specific traits of the form that will help him. Juyo is almost completely alien to him so that could come into play.

it certainly came into play in tpm.

I think Obi-Wan would know enough about Juyo to be able to predict some of his strikes.

he might have even studied it after he encountered maul.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
actually i read, and i see you saying something about how technical skill is different and-blah blah blah

Thanks for confirming that you don't read.

if someone has more technical skill then yoda, and then gets killed by someone with 1/8 the technical skill in a dumb, overconfident, cocky, surprised, unreflexive move, then i am seeing that your arguement has very little impact on the actual arguement..

What exactly are you trying to prove when you say that anoon could beat yoda in a posh fencing match with foils and electric jackets because he has perfect swordfighting tecnique?

This, by me:

Originally posted by Faunus
I never once said that they could beat him, and I believe I stressed the Bane v. Kas'im scenario as an example at least twice as to why Force power and mastery matter as much or more than pure technique.

Read the goddamn post before you reply, dumbass.

And #2 who are you to say this? where is the proof? the quotes? the substantiate? You are speculating that they are equal or more tecnically skilled then yoda, so what has yoda been doing while training jedi for the last 800 years? are you saying that someone who might have lived a mere, say, 30 years is more technically skilled because they practiced more?

The novel states that Anoon's lightsaber skills are second to none. None. Since you apparently don't know what that means, go here and read.

Once more i ask, what are you trying to prove? its been established that rots kenobi beats maul. This thread has gotten off topic and needs to be closed.

Me:

Originally posted by Faunus
Unfortunately, what you think just doesn't matter. You can't win an argument against written canon.

And I've been over this with you guys before; technical superiority does not mean overall dueling superiority. Maul's training was absolutely insane, and at 22 he was a "high-level master of multiple forms." There's no question that he was practicing far more than Yoda had in any recent stretch of time, so it wouldn't be far-fetched at all to say that he and Anoon were more technically skilled than Yoda.

I'm also curious with the staggering level of disregard you have for established canon. You people treat the third-person narrative claiming Sidious to be the most powerful Sith Lord in history like gospel, but something stated by an omniscient narrator can be negated by your incredulity? Um, no.

Originally posted by Detective Dipshit
You have just proved you are a total idiot.

I have to say, you're pretty much the most thick-headed person I've seen on KMC in quite some time, and I can only hope you aren't this stupid in real life. And of course, this entire post would have ad hominem scrawled all over it if you'd actually presented an argument for me to look past.

After seeing Bush elected over Gore, then re-elected over Kerry (those Republicans should be shot), I've lost most of my faith in Americans, and therefore enjoy seeing people improve in one way or another. So on that note two pieces of advice for your benefit:

I: Read. Making people repeat themselves over the internet because you didn't bother to look at their posts is stupid, and a good way to get owned.
II: If you can't do the above, STFU. Your smartass routine fails.

wow. you just flung around alot of insults without making a real point. im saying that technical skill has no vice on the arguement.

you have yet to disprove my statement. i dont see where you explain technical skill in the above either.

Not that I haven't already disproved whatever you call your "statement"...

Technical skill = what Kas'im had. He knew every form inside and out, and would've been more than a match for most duelists. In that sense, he was the greatest swordsman of his time, and arguably one the greatest ever. Narration agrees.

Overall prowess = whatever technical skill someone has, plus whatever their Force ability adds. Case in point, Bane. Far below Kas'im as far as true techniques goes, yet his considerably greater command of the Force allowed him to beat Kas'im back for the first half of their battle.

Yoda's power was extraordinary to the point that the next contender in the Order - Mace Windu - wasn't even in the same league. That kind of power, as well as the experience he has with his own chosen form of combat, would allow him to dominate Maul and probably Anoon, even though the two possess equal or superior technique.

Clear enough?

Originally posted by Faunus
Wow. You're funny.

Thanks for confirming that you don't read.

You are [b]retarded.

This, by me:
Something that you conveniently ignored. Again.

didn't ignore it. I found it devoid of reason. Of course force mastery matters as much as technique or skill. It matters more! Nobody said it didnt! Is this actually your "arguement" that anoon is less then the eu made him out to be? Or is it a desperate fight to justify that maul is incredibly skilled and died because his enemy had more force mastery?" I have yet to see a point to your unnecessarily long ramblings. Maybe you should explain your purpose instead of tossing around insults.

Read the goddamn post before you reply, dumbass.
Do you understand what you're arguing? Or are you just smacking at the keyboard, hoping to toss out something sensible by chance? The latter seems to be the case, and you should know that it's not working.

The novel states that Anoon's lightsaber skills are second to none. None. Since you apparently don't know what that means, go here and read.

I never said anything about anoon's skill, either. you took my slandering of your precious annon banderas for granted.

Me:
In response to Sidi-Boy. On-topic, relevant, and yet to be refuted. And this was you:
So you tell me who took what off-topic.

I have to say, you're pretty much the most thick-headed person I've seen on KMC in quite some time

and I can only hope you aren't this stupid in real life. And of course, this entire post would have ad hominem scrawled all over it if you'd actually presented an argument for me to look past.

After seeing Bush elected over Gore, then re-elected over Kerry (those Republicans should be shot), I've lost most of my faith in Americans, and therefore enjoy seeing people improve in one way or another. So on that note two pieces of advice for your benefit:

I: Read. Making people repeat themselves over the internet because you didn't bother to look at their posts is stupid, and a good way to get owned.
II: If you can't do the above, STFU. Your smartass routine fails. [/B]

George bush remains in office because he is better then Kerry. Youd be complaining about kerry too. My opinion is nobody thats any good even runs for president anymore.

now gtfo if you cant make any sence of your thoughts.

This is the last time I'm going to do this for you, and then we're done.

1) My purpose is qualifying (again, and again, and again) my original argument with Sidi-Boy. You decided to hop in, pull a section out without managing to understand what it meant, and call me an idiot. That simple.

2) Anoon is relevant here because he was completely outclassed by Maul. Someone with lightsaber skills second to none in the Jedi Order didn't have chance. What I'm doing is rationalizing that fact, as anyone who can think should be able to see.

3) My argument is "circular"? No shit moron, because I've thrown this in your face three times already.

Overestimative? Not a word. Ad hominem? Look it up. And your head is apparently so far up your ass that you can't understand that your own argument is nonexistent because you have no point. You started out trying to bash me, and I don't know where you've gotten since.

4) There's an edit button. Stop double-posting.

5) GTFO? Please. Almost three years of this and you're one of the most frustrating people I've ever had to deal with. Nebaris actually addresses points while presenting those of his own, instead of doing whatever the hell you're doing. So really, if you have a point, make it. If all you're doing is trying to prove to the rest of the VF what I already know, then congratulations; you're the biggest idiot on the internet.

6) And for God's sake, learn to read. I've seen four year-olds with a better grasp of the english language than you.

hahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

clapping king the funny thing is im pissing him off....

And i mean really pissing him off. that's funny. just proves my point that it pays more to ignore the stupid instead of trying to explain your point to them.

yes, that whole arguement was just to piss you off. especially since this thread is quickly becoming incredibly stupid.