actually, a freind wanted me to prove that it was better to teach the pigheaded and stupid than to ignore them and leave them to their own devices. all i have to do is send him this link where i acted pigheaded and stupid to frustrate someone and waste their time. I win that debate by losing this one. EASILY. Thank you. For the laugh, and the victory.
Oh, okay. So that's what happened. I guess you're really a lot smarter than I thought you were. Silly me, thinking that you would argue on and on and on and on because you didn't have the balls to admit that your entire reason for "arguing" was an idiotic mistake on your part. No, it was definitely all for the friend.
--
You get profiled for making my day.
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
he might have even studied it after he encountered maul.
Uh, did you not notice the part where I said that there was no jedi with proficient knowledge of the form to teach it, let alone being a master of it, the only known people to have knowledge of the form were Dooku,Sidious, Maul and Grievous and his magnaguards taught by Dooku. The form for would be almost completely alien to him, the onle opponent he fought who knew it was Maul and I highly doubt he was taking notes on it, especially after Quigon died.
Before someone else says it I just address it now, yes Maul would not know what form Obiwan is using these days, he can deploy elements of other forms before going to Soresu however the key difference is Maul would still know the form he is fighting while Juyo was lost to the jedi. Thus kenobi changing forms might work to his advantage or it might not.
Oh and you never actually got to Faunus's point last page regarding the Bane and Kasim for examples of technical skill losing to overall skill/combat prowess.
Yes, I actually do agree with Elite Hunter about technical skill being less important than power, mastery of the force, and intelligence in combat; someone could have all the technical skill in the world, but be slow and weak, and will thus lose to an inferior, but faster combatant.
Anoon Bondara's quote is extremely odd- at least I find it to be- and I still believe it to be an exaggerration (note: If someone like GL said that Bondara is the best duelist, I would've backed down), but since there is really no way to win such an argument, I will now back down.
Bane beat Kas'im with the force. Kas'im was more skilled in the use of sabers (namely Jar'Kai). Period.
Oh, and by the way, I think a major part of the "Maul-mojo" (XD sounds like Austin Powers) and why he was such a fearsome combatant was BECAUSE of his double-lightsaber and his Juyo. There is no way Kenobi ever found out what lightsaber form Maul was using, because only one Jedi had any knowledge of it- Mace Windu, and seeing as he didn't see Maul fighting, he would not be able to figure out what style he used.
Kenobi's feints will be useful in this fight, I agree with that.
So, can we close this thread before Knightfall and Faunus eat each other? XD
Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Apologies for my absence. I was, unfortunately, necessary due to reasons that I will not elaborate upon now.
not a problem.. reply in your own time.
Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Actually, I have. You have yet to throw off my analysis of the fight- or can you do better than that? If you really think that Maul > TPM Obi-Wan in such a blatant manner, prove it yourself. I've done my analysis, and until you can counter it- step-by-step- you can't say 'lol Maul pwns Obi-Wan' Maul used an opening in Obi-Wan's defense, and it succeeded very effectively. Obi-Wan, however, was fighting very equally with Maul- while Maul did beat him, Obi-Wan was fighting just as well as he was (arguably even better due to his use of rage)..
I dnt see why I have to prove TPM Maul is greater than TPM Kenobi in such a blatant manner. becuase youve already admitted Obi-Wan wasnt as good as Qui-GON, who Maul was blatantly better than by a significant amount. So obviously Kenobis Ataru(not equal to Qui-Gons) is no match for Mauls fighting style whatsoever.
and please explain why I even need to break down your analysis of a 35 second fight.. because even if your right and Obi-Wan did match him for those 35 seconds, what does that prove?? absolutely nothing! iv sed a million times Kenobi gave it everything, but then started tiring.. Maul did not. Maul looked like he just getting some sparring practice, whilst Obi-Wan looked like hes fighting for his life and for his Masters honour.
kenobi had a huge rest from the fight, whilst Maul had... lets see first fought 2 jedis for such a long time(if Kenobis ataru was anywhere near a match for Maul he wuldnt have got left behind in the fight)... then Maul fought Qui-gon... then he fought Qui-Gon again... and then right at the end he fights Obi-Wan one more time, and Obi-Wan matches Maul for 35 seconds before Maul tosses him on the floor and disarms him. Oh wow! go Kenobi!
If I can match a good runner in a sprint for 35 seconds, but then i tire and get left behind.. and he carries on the same speed whilst I cant run anymore, then does that prove me a match for that runner?? in any way whatsoever?? of course not!
do you want me to give MY Analysis of the entire fight before Qui-Gon died??? because seriously that Analysis would show Maul was capable of taking on and defeating 2 Kenobis simultaneously!!! so seriously stop the comparison between TPM Kenoni and TPM Maul because theres seriously no comparison there.
Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Err... no, he didn't. But his Ataru skills at TPM-time were near-mastery- weaker than Qui-Gon's (sorry for my 'prove it' statement previously... it was rather dumb of me, I admit.))..
Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
master Ataru skills, and- with the advantage of his anger- allowed him to fight equally with Maul using only an umastered form against Maul's 'mastery of multiple lightsaber forms'.
Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
I kind of think that this says a lot about Maul's supposed lightsaber skills that were insufficient to overcome Obi-Wan's unmastered form..
very last fight... took Maul a few seconds longer to dispose of Kenobi than Qui-Gon... give Maul a break here will you???!!!
Originally posted by Sidi-BoyAnd will you please, instead of using Maul's statements of power, actually prove that my analysis of the fight is incorrect? Thank you...
again I dnt see what your analysis proves... that Kenobi fought equally for a few seonds.. hey I can sprint well for a few seconds! wow I must be good..
if your really suggesting Kenobi is almost a match for Maul at that point then Kenobi would have been like the 2nd or 3rd most formidable jedi in the galaxy, and would have been equal to the Emporer by episode 3.
Originally posted by Sidi-BoyDue to this reason, Obi-Wan's complete mastery of Soresu, near mastery of Ataru, Shii-Cho knowledge, and Sokan skills will bond together fluidly, forming a complex form he was shown to use several times....
Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
If his Ataru skills were a match for Maul alone.......
Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
think of his full repetoire of forms against Maul. Logically, Obi-Wan will completely and utterly outclass Maul.
no because Mauls capable of a repetoire of more wide range of forms and at a considerably higher level. this is s fact.. to be a Juyo Master you have to be a High Level Master of Multiple Lightsaber forms!! im not making this up.. im not specualting... im not even speculating based on facts.. im simply explaining simple facts to you, which for some reason you dnt believe, or try to ignore.
Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Anakin was a master of Djem So, Shien, and had some knowledge of Ataru. Anakin was the chosen one. Anakin had more raw force power than any character in the saga. Anakin was using the full force of his rage.And Obi-Wan beat him. You YOURSELF said that Anakin > Maul, and since they fight similarly- not the same way, but similarly- using fast barrages of attacks, albeit in different manners- Obi-Wan should be able to handle Maul's barrages with relative ease in comparison to Anakin's..
actually accpoding to Mauls journal he was very elegant with his use of a saber.. not like Anakin. yes ROTS Anakin > Maul. but Anakin would have got threw Kenobis defense had he not fallen for that high ground trick. which is all credit to Kenobi, but were talking lightsaber skills here. Anakins > Kenobi in a lightsaber duel according to Nick Gillard.
so it might take Maul longer than Anakin to get through Kenobis defense.. or it might just be a stalemate.. Maul keeps up his deadly Juyo attack, whilst Kenobi keeps defending, until their both exhausted. although Mauls stamina is very good as he proved in TPM.
Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Grievous, meanwhile, was a machine with four lightsabers and agility beyond what a normal human can hope to handle. He also used lightning fast flurries to overcome his opponents. That's SIMILAR to Maul... ..
in terms of his attacks.. possibly.. but Grevious left openings for Kenobi to take quickly. and then force pushed him to disarm him of his other weapons.. A master of Juyo is not gna let his guard down so easily, and will not be force pushed around so easily either.
Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Obi-Wan's speciality is taking out overconfident youths through their mistakes,..
Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
trapping them in their own too-brutal offense and subsequently delimbing them. It's called the 'wait them out' strategy. Maul's juyo was flamboyant and aggressive, exactly what Obi-Wan's style is all about countering.
Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Oh? Really? And where, exactly, did you find this information? Other than where it stated he's a high master of multiple lightsaber forms, is there any source depicting Maul using anything but Juyo? Sorry, but saying he can use it better than Obi-Wan, with absolutely no proof backing that up, is pure- and complete- hyperbole. If he could use Ataru better than Obi-Wan, why did Obi-Wan's simple, inferior Ataru pose such a match to Maul?
read my post I said "PROBABLY"... i never claimed it to be a fact. oh so hes "a high level master of multiple forms" mean nothing to you! if one of those forms is Ataru, then yeah Mauls Ataru would be at a much higher level than Obi-Wans.
Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Then Obi-Wan will MAKE him let his guard down. Trapping one in their own offense is a very potent weapon, and combine feints and acrobatics into that, and you can understand why Obi-Wan's skills are that far beyond Maul's.
prove he can do this to a Form VII Master...someone like Sora Bulq
in fact who has he done this to??
Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
And where did you decide Obi-Wan is less deadly than Maul? Prove it. Explain to me why, other than using vague statements, his Juyo would be such a strong match to Obi-Wan.
Form VII is the most deadly lightsaber form. go look up on the different lightsaber forms if you dnt believe me.. thats always the description of Form VII.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I dnt see why I have to prove TPM Maul is greater than TPM Kenobi in such a blatant manner. becuase youve already admitted Obi-Wan wasnt as good as Qui-GON, who Maul was blatantly better than by a significant amount. So obviously Kenobis Ataru(not equal to Qui-Gons) is no match for Mauls fighting style whatsoever.and please explain why I even need to break down your analysis of a 35 second fight.. because even if your right and Obi-Wan did match him for those 35 seconds, what does that prove?? absolutely nothing! iv sed a million times Kenobi gave it everything, but then started tiring.. Maul did not. Maul looked like he just getting some sparring practice, whilst Obi-Wan looked like hes fighting for his life and for his Masters honour.
Yes- TPM Obi-Wan < TPM Maul. That's the plain truth of it; howebver, you fail to realize I was arguing that Obi was CLOSE to Maul, not the way you write it to be as if Maul is going to be pulling a Sidious on him. No, TPM Obi-Wan had the advantages of stamina, youth, and his rage, which allowed him to fight superior to Qui-Gon in the SHORT TIME PERIOD. It's a legitimate form of combat called 'burst power'- expanding all of your energy in order to quickly take out an opponent. Incidentally, it's Ataru's forte, using energetic movements to quickly defeat an opponent. Obi-Wan, despite being weaker than Maul, had a slight edge against him, in part due to Maul's fatigue, Obi-Wan's anger, etc... but he was closer to Maul than you think. Maul, however, proved to be better by eluding Obi-Wan and unexpectedly pushing him.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
kenobi had a huge rest from the fight, whilst Maul had... lets see first fought 2 jedis for such a long time(if Kenobis ataru was anywhere near a match for Maul he wuldnt have got left behind in the fight)... then Maul fought Qui-gon... then he fought Qui-Gon again... and then right at the end he fights Obi-Wan one more time, and Obi-Wan matches Maul for 35 seconds before Maul tosses him on the floor and disarms him. Oh wow! go Kenobi!
Lol, Qui-Gon kicked Maul and pushed him downwards! That must mean Qui-Gon > Maul! Lol!
No. Obi-Wan suffered a kick, and unluckily fell down more than Maul did; due to this lack of luck, Obi-Wan was left behind. I'm rather confident that if they had stayed together, Maul would be toast.
Once again, Maul exploited something OTHER than Obi-Wan's lack of skill to defeat him in the engagement later on- as Obi-Wan said, he eluded Obi-Wan through sense manipulation.
Obi-Wan, other than forcing Maul back during the fight, managed- something you have yet to refute other than saying I'm going on that one blow- to penetrate Maul's defenses with a SABER. A SABER. Not a kick, not a push, but a SABER. Did Maul do anything like that? No, he didn't.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
If I can match a good runner in a sprint for 35 seconds, but then i tire and get left behind.. and he carries on the same speed whilst I cant run anymore, then does that prove me a match for that runner?? in any way whatsoever?? of course not!do you want me to give MY Analysis of the entire fight before Qui-Gon died??? because seriously that Analysis would show Maul was capable of taking on and defeating 2 Kenobis simultaneously!!! so seriously stop the comparison between TPM Kenoni and TPM Maul because theres seriously no comparison there.
Sure, give me your analysis. It will end us a lot of trouble.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
yes and Qui-gons Mastery of Ataru was no match for Mauls skills so whats Kenobis "near-mastery" supposed to do exactly??equally for 35 seconds..
very last fight... took Maul a few seconds longer to dispose of Kenobi than Qui-Gon... give Maul a break here will you???!!!
ABC, incidentally, fails here because Obi-Wan had rage, youth, and power, something Qui-Gon didn't have. As Faunus wisely stated, technical skill doesn't necessarily equal a victory.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
again I dnt see what your analysis proves... that Kenobi fought equally for a few seonds.. hey I can sprint well for a few seconds! wow I must be good..if your really suggesting Kenobi is almost a match for Maul at that point then Kenobi would have been like the 2nd or 3rd most formidable jedi in the galaxy, and would have been equal to the Emporer by episode 3.
In controlled circumstances, Obi-Wan would lose to Maul. In a training chamber, no force allowed, Obi-Wan calm, Maul would defeat him after a minute or two of combat. Howeber, Obi-Wan's rage allowed him to gain the upper hand on Maul until Maul, being overwhelmed, used intelligent sith trickery to overpower Obi-Wan through usage of the force.
Oh, and by ROTS, Obi-Wan is probably the 3rd or 4th best Jedi ^^.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
expalin how this compares to be a high level master of multiple forms??? Obi-Wans not even a master of Ataru or Shii-Cho. Shii-Cho being quite a basic form by the way, if I remember correctly.
WHEN WAS MAUL DOCUMENTED DOING ANYTHING BUT JUYO?! Give me a source, and I'll surrender this argument of Obi-Wan's Ataru and Shii-Cho < Maul's Ataru and Shii Cho. By the way- let's look at the analysis you provided. Maul's Ataru is superior to Obi-Wan's, he knows Juyo, Shii-Cho, and multiple other forms, and has a double-bladed lightsaber. Poor Obi-Wan has only his inferior Ataru, but managed to gain the upper hand on Maul for the '30 seconds'. That makes NO sense.
Shii-Cho is basic, every Jedi has knowledge of it, but rarely actually uses it in combat. Obi-Wan was one of the few that incorporates its elements successfully into his bladework.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
ok im saying this one last time... Kenobis Ataru < Qui-Gons Ataru <<< Mauls skills. therfore Kenobis Ataru <<<<<<<<< Mauls Lightsaber Skills.
Err... since when was Qui Gon <<< Maul? Maul was stronger than him, but only barely; during the beginning portion, Qui-Gon was forcing Maul back, but later lost out due to fatigue, a lack of sufficient space, and old age. Kenobi's Ataru is inferior to Qui-Gon's, but his strength, stamina, and in this case, rage were greater than Qui-Gon's. You can make these statements all you want, but until you can explain how come Obi-Wan, with his inferior Ataru, had the upper hand over Maul for 30 seconds, this means nothing.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
no because Mauls capable of a repetoire of more wide range of forms and at a considerably higher level. this is s fact.. to be a Juyo Master you have to be a High Level Master of Multiple Lightsaber forms!! im not making this up.. im not specualting... im not even speculating based on facts.. im simply explaining simple facts to you, which for some reason you dnt believe, or try to ignore.
Juyo is my favorite form of lightsaber combat. Don't try to explain it to me.
You're the one whose ignoring half of what I'm saying; now then, other than that statement, could you finally direct me to where Maul uses anything BUT Juyo?! Knowledge matters not if you don't use it. He uses Juyo exclusively, while ROTS Obi-Wan uses Soresu with Ataru offense and Shii-Cho elements.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
actually accpoding to Mauls journal he was very elegant with his use of a saber.. not like Anakin. yes ROTS Anakin > Maul. but Anakin would have got threw Kenobis defense had he not fallen for that high ground trick. which is all credit to Kenobi, but were talking lightsaber skills here. Anakins > Kenobi in a lightsaber duel according to Nick Gillard.
WHERE does it say that? Quote please?
Juyo isn't known for its elegance, and Maul does not rely on intelligent, planned, and tactical assaults like Dooku, but rather brutal, swift, and unpredictable assaults- Obi-Wan will be able to handle that with ease if he handled Mustafar Vader quite effectively.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
so it might take Maul longer than Anakin to get through Kenobis defense.. or it might just be a stalemate.. Maul keeps up his deadly Juyo attack, whilst Kenobi keeps defending, until their both exhausted. although Mauls stamina is very good as he proved in TPM.
Obi-Wan will quickly seize some opening and beat Maul. Do you actually think Maul could beat ROTS Obi-Wan?!
And Soresu is the style that uses that least amount of energy- Obi-Wan was never documented getting tired in a fight, and if it's about stamina, Obi-Wan wins.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
in terms of his attacks.. possibly.. but Grevious left openings for Kenobi to take quickly. and then force pushed him to disarm him of his other weapons.. A master of Juyo is not gna let his guard down so easily, and will not be force pushed around so easily either.
Oh, really? Obi-Wan trapped Grievous in his own offense, causing him to make mistakes, become slopper, and thus, Obi-Wan simply de-handed him.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
the Juyo Master will have to make a mistake first.. not likely that Maul is going to make a mistake in his actual Lightsaber combat... though he may make a tactical error, which is Kenobi most probable way of winning this fight.
Oh, really? When was Maul documented fighting against an enemy against which he has no chance of breaching his defense? Never. Maul will grow frustrated, Obi-Wan will confuse his bladework, force him to expand more energy, strike him in vital spots- Maul will, very soon, lose the fight.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
not true. Soresu is not desingned to counter Juyo. and Mauls got mor ethan just the aggresive style.. hes very elegant and precise in his lightsaber technique.. and hes very skilled and masterful. and who has Obi-Wan trapped in their own attack.. I doubt he done that to any of the very formidable Jedi/Siths.
Err, Grievous. But I know what you're gonna say- Grievous <<<<<<<<< Maul. Please. Grievous beat 4 power Jedi, some of them on the council, defeated Jedi effortlessly during the Clone Wars, matched blows with Mace Windu, and was almost capable of outsparring Dooku, by his own admission.
Do you even know what Juyo is, other than 'the deadliest form'? Juyo is an aggressive style relying on high speed, acrobatic movements, and unpredictable, staccato strikes in order to overwhelm an enemy- however, Maul's Juyo variation is more brutal, usage of the double-bladed lightsaber prevents percision, power, and quality of attacks on the level of, say, Sidious, and due to his youthful, flamboyant attitude, Obi-Wan is the perfect counter to his kind.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
prove he can do this to a Form VII Master...someone like Sora Bulqin fact who has he done this to??
Sora Bulq used Vaapad, not Juyo. It's similar, but very slightly different.
Grievous had knowledge of Juyo.
Please... I explained to you percisely why he's the counter to Maul's type of fighters. Oh, when did Maul outduel a master of Soresu? Prove that he can.
Obiviously, you can't, and it's for that reason that this sort of argument does not work.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Form VII is the most deadly lightsaber form. go look up on the different lightsaber forms if you dnt believe me.. thats always the description of Form VII.
Oh, I know- but Maul's usage of Juyo is wild, powerful, aggressive, and brutal. Once again, if Maul's Ataru > Obi-Wan's Ataru, why didn't he USE it? Wouldn't he logically be able to use a form to defeat an inferior user of that form? C'mon. Don't give me that bullshit.
Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Obi-Wan will quickly seize some opening and beat Maul. Do you actually think Maul could beat ROTS Obi-Wan?!
isnt that what this debate is all about?
Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
And Soresu is the style that uses that least amount of energy- Obi-Wan was never documented getting tired in a fight, and if it's about stamina, Obi-Wan wins.
really? u dnt think he was tired towards the end of the Mustafa duel? Please he culdnt have been panting any harder.
Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Oh, really? Obi-Wan trapped Grievous in his own offense, causing him to make mistakes, become slopper, and thus, Obi-Wan simply de-handed him. .
do you have proof of that Sidi-Boy or are you just speculating?? looked to me like he just took advantage of an opening.. besides Greivous is not a force user, and his knowledge of Juyo is not on the same level as Mauls.
Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Oh, really? When was Maul documented fighting against an enemy against which he has no chance of breaching his defense? Never. Maul will grow frustrated, Obi-Wan will confuse his bladework, force him to expand more energy, strike him in vital spots- Maul will, very soon, lose the fight..
Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Err, Grievous. But I know what you're gonna say- Grievous <<<<<<<<< Maul. Please. Grievous beat 4 power Jedi, some of them on the council, defeated Jedi effortlessly during the Clone Wars, matched blows with Mace Windu, and was almost capable of outsparring Dooku, by his own admission...
Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Do you even know what Juyo is, other than 'the deadliest form'? Juyo is an aggressive style relying on high speed, acrobatic movements, and unpredictable, staccato strikes in order to overwhelm an enemy- however, Maul's Juyo variation is more brutal, usage of the double-bladed lightsaber prevents percision, power, and quality of attacks on the level of, say, Sidious, and due to his youthful, flamboyant attitude, Obi-Wan is the perfect counter to his kind.
yes he will be good at defending Mauls blows.. no doubt about that. thats why he switched to Soreus after TPM.. however taking Maul down is another task altogether, than just defending against Mauls blows.
Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Sora Bulq used Vaapad, not Juyo. It's similar, but very slightly different..
Grievous had knowledge of Juyo..
I never said Bulq used Juyo. I said he was a form VII Master. Greivous had knowledge of Juyo but was not a Juyo Master. and lets not forget was not a Force User.
Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Please... I explained to you percisely why he's the counter to Maul's type of fighters. Oh, when did Maul outduel a master of Soresu? Prove that he can...
Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Oh, I know- but Maul's usage of Juyo is wild, powerful, aggressive, and brutal. Once again, if Maul's Ataru > Obi-Wan's Ataru, why didn't he USE it? Wouldn't he logically be able to use a form to defeat an inferior user of that form? C'mon. Don't give me that bullshit.
he didnt need his Ataru.. Juyo was more than sufficient to take down young Obi-Wan and his Master.
Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Uh, did you not notice the part where I said that there was no jedi with proficient knowledge of the form to teach it, let alone being a master of it, the only known people to have knowledge of the form were Dooku,Sidious, Maul and Grievous and his magnaguards taught by Dooku. The form for would be almost completely alien to him, the onle opponent he fought who knew it was Maul and I highly doubt he was taking notes on it, especially after Quigon died.Before someone else says it I just address it now, yes Maul would not know what form Obiwan is using these days, he can deploy elements of other forms before going to Soresu however the key difference is Maul would still know the form he is fighting while Juyo was lost to the jedi. Thus kenobi changing forms might work to his advantage or it might not.
Oh and you never actually got to Faunus's point last page regarding the Bane and Kasim for examples of technical skill losing to overall skill/combat prowess.
im just saying after a guy nearly killed me and killed my jedi master with some totally alien form. if I was the most cunning jedi on the counsil, i would probably study up on it and figure out what it was so that nobody else would use it against me. ITs not like its canon or anything. i am just saying.
And actually, i never even read pod, so i wouldnt know much about the way bane fought kas'im, so im not even ready to debate about it.
Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Yes- TPM Obi-Wan < TPM Maul. That's the plain truth of it; howebver, you fail to realize I was arguing that Obi was CLOSE to Maul, not the way you write it to be as if Maul is going to be pulling a Sidious on him. No, TPM Obi-Wan had the advantages of stamina, youth, and his rage, which allowed him to fight superior to Qui-Gon in the SHORT TIME PERIOD. It's a legitimate form of combat called 'burst power'- expanding all of your energy in order to quickly take out an opponent. Incidentally, it's Ataru's forte, using energetic movements to quickly defeat an opponent. Obi-Wan, despite being weaker than Maul, had a slight edge against him, in part due to Maul's fatigue, Obi-Wan's anger, etc... but he was closer to Maul than you think. Maul, however, proved to be better by eluding Obi-Wan and unexpectedly pushing him.Lol, Qui-Gon kicked Maul and pushed him downwards! That must mean Qui-Gon > Maul! Lol!
No. Obi-Wan suffered a kick, and unluckily fell down more than Maul did; due to this lack of luck, Obi-Wan was left behind. I'm rather confident that if they had stayed together, Maul would be toast.
Once again, Maul exploited something OTHER than Obi-Wan's lack of skill to defeat him in the engagement later on- as Obi-Wan said, he eluded Obi-Wan through sense manipulation.
Obi-Wan, other than forcing Maul back during the fight, managed- something you have yet to refute other than saying I'm going on that one blow- to penetrate Maul's defenses with a SABER. A SABER. Not a kick, not a push, but a SABER. Did Maul do anything like that? No, he didn't.
Sure, give me your analysis. It will end us a lot of trouble.
ABC, incidentally, fails here because Obi-Wan had rage, youth, and power, something Qui-Gon didn't have. As Faunus wisely stated, technical skill doesn't necessarily equal a victory.
In controlled circumstances, Obi-Wan would lose to Maul. In a training chamber, no force allowed, Obi-Wan calm, Maul would defeat him after a minute or two of combat. Howeber, Obi-Wan's rage allowed him to gain the upper hand on Maul until Maul, being overwhelmed, used intelligent sith trickery to overpower Obi-Wan through usage of the force.
Oh, and by ROTS, Obi-Wan is probably the 3rd or 4th best Jedi ^^.
WHEN WAS MAUL DOCUMENTED DOING ANYTHING BUT JUYO?! Give me a source, and I'll surrender this argument of Obi-Wan's Ataru and Shii-Cho < Maul's Ataru and Shii Cho. By the way- let's look at the analysis you provided. Maul's Ataru is superior to Obi-Wan's, he knows Juyo, Shii-Cho, and multiple other forms, and has a double-bladed lightsaber. Poor Obi-Wan has only his inferior Ataru, but managed to gain the upper hand on Maul for the '30 seconds'. That makes NO sense.
Shii-Cho is basic, every Jedi has knowledge of it, but rarely actually uses it in combat. Obi-Wan was one of the few that incorporates its elements successfully into his bladework.
Err... since when was Qui Gon <<< Maul? Maul was stronger than him, but only barely; during the beginning portion, Qui-Gon was forcing Maul back, but later lost out due to fatigue, a lack of sufficient space, and old age. Kenobi's Ataru is inferior to Qui-Gon's, but his strength, stamina, and in this case, rage were greater than Qui-Gon's. You can make these statements all you want, but until you can explain how come Obi-Wan, with his inferior Ataru, had the upper hand over Maul for 30 seconds, this means nothing.
Juyo is my favorite form of lightsaber combat. Don't try to explain it to me.
You're the one whose ignoring half of what I'm saying; now then, other than that statement, could you finally direct me to where Maul uses anything BUT Juyo?! Knowledge matters not if you don't use it. He uses Juyo exclusively, while ROTS Obi-Wan uses Soresu with Ataru offense and Shii-Cho elements.
WHERE does it say that? Quote please?
Juyo isn't known for its elegance, and Maul does not rely on intelligent, planned, and tactical assaults like Dooku, but rather brutal, swift, and unpredictable assaults- Obi-Wan will be able to handle that with ease if he handled Mustafar Vader quite effectively.
you see Sidi Boy your whole argument here is based on 2 things:
1. TPM Obi-Wan was close to Maul in a fight.
2. Maul doesnt/cannot use multiple lightsaber forms.
both of these are not true and completely against cannon facts.
youve even claimed Obi-Wan could take Qui-Gon in TPM. and Maul was "just barely" better than Qui-Gon. exactly what version of TPM did you watch??
ur just ignoring cannon facts, so theres no way i can argue these points with you if your just going to deny the facts.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
you see Sidi Boy your whole argument here is based on 2 things:1. TPM Obi-Wan was close to Maul in a fight.
2. Maul doesnt/cannot use multiple lightsaber forms.
both of these are not true and completely against cannon facts.
youve even claimed Obi-Wan could take Qui-Gon in TPM. and Maul was "just barely" better than Qui-Gon. exactly what version of TPM did you watch??
ur just ignoring cannon facts, so theres no way i can argue these points with you if your just going to deny the facts.
Okay. What canon statements directly deny these exactly? Oh, and I never claimed Maul can't use multiple lightsaber forms- he probably has knowledge of most of the basic ones- but, evidently, he doesn't use them.
You know what? I'll give you a scenario, okay? You're fighting an excited, energetic Padawan who uses Ataru, a form of lightsaber combat. You're BETTER than him in Ataru. Logically, wouldn't you use your own outclassing Ataru to defeat him? Yes, you would. Maul did not show any signs of beating Obi-Wan in saber skills.
I did not claim Obi-Wan could take Qui-Gon; but due to his anger, he successfully fended off Maul better than Qui-Gon. In a fair match? Hell yeah Qui-Gon would beat him.
Oh, by the way, I think we both watched the same TPM. That's the beauty of Star Wars- other than the duel in ESB, and possibly Obi-Wan vs. Grievous, has its result open to debate. Personally, I did not see Maul effortlessly beat Qui-Gon.
Let's see... hmm... Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan fought against Maul; he was obiviously overwhelmed, and seeing Obi-Wan (correctly) as the weakest link in the attack duo, he chose to continuously use kicks in order to distance Obi-Wan away from him. He dedicated all of its energy to drive Qui-Gon away from Obi-Wan, finally separating them completely.
If it was really so easy for him to beat Qui-Gon, why didn't he slash his head off soon into the fight, and subsequently kill Obi-Wan like you apparently think he is?
So far, the only canon statement you actually used in your entire argument is "Maul was a high-level master of multiple forms". Err... no. That's one statement, and if he does indeed know them, he DOESN'T use them, and there is nothing to indicate he WILL, based on his fights.
And what, exactly, is the legendary, all-powerful canon stating that Obi-Wan wasn't close to Maul? Your word? No. You have yet to prove- other than your "lol Maul pushed him in 30 seconds xD go Maul OB1 suxzorz XD", the fact that the angered Obi-Wan WASN'T close to Maul. They fought, okay? Do me a favor and analyze the fight yourself if you can so prove that Maul >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Obi-Wan.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
no chance of breaching his defence?? thats a bit of an exaggeration. of course he has a Chance to breach it. Hows Obi-Wan going to strike Maul in vital spots? his offensive is not that good. confuse his bladework??
*Sigh*. You really do fail to understand Obi-Wan's fighting style.
Obi-Wan was capable of blocking all random fast barrages up to 20 hits per second. Cunning barrages, like Dooku's, could take him, but random barrages... and seeing Maul displayed almost no cunning in his actual bladework... no, Maul is not going to break Obi-Wan's defense.
His offensive is not the good? Ataru anyone? Shii-Cho? Sokan? All use quick strikes in vital spots, something Obi-Wan likes to use (although often favoring de-limbing his opponents... it's easier). Obi-Wan's defense isn't on Anakin's class, or even Maul's class, for that matter, but it doesn't matter. Do you undersand what 'confusing his bladework' means? It means that Obi-Wan will deflect his strikes in odd places, throw his blade away, cause him to become overextended, causing Maul to spend too much energy at every strike; please. TPM Obi-Wan managed to almost- almost isn't good enough, btw- kill Maul with a saber. Is ROTS Obi-Wan not going to be able to do it?
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
fair enough. but he did outspar Anoon the best lightsaber duelist in the order at the time.
*Sigh*. Didn't we already say that Anoon's was not necessarily the best lightsaber duelist? Oh, and by the way, second to none could mean that he was tied to having the best technical skill with someone such as Yoda or Windu, not necessarily having THE BEST technical skill.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
those 4 jedis were exhausted at the time.. Dooku said he was hard pressed to fight off Greivous.. do u think he would find blade to blade sparring with Maul easy???
Actually? Yes, I do, I believe Obi-Wan remarked somewhere about how Dooku was a far more devestating opponent than Maul.
Dooku toyed with Obi-Wan and rather effortlesly defeated him, while Obi-Wan was forcing Maul back in TPM (yes, due to his rage, yes, Maul was better, etc...). That's Obi-Wan ten years later, with mastery (although not uber godly mastery as shown in ROTS) of Soresu and still the knowledge of Ataru. Yes, Dooku is far beyond Maul and would likely take ROTS Obi-Wan due to his style being the perfect counter to Obi-Wan's.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
do you have proof of that Sidi-Boy or are you just speculating?? looked to me like he just took advantage of an opening.. besides Greivous is not a force user, and his knowledge of Juyo is not on the same level as Mauls.
Step-by-step time analysis, mate ^^.
Step One- Grievous, chopper mode: Grievous does his twirly thing; there is very little to discuss during this part, other than the fact that Grievous' pure machine speed was incapable of overwhelming Obi-Wan's controlled emotions and usage of the force, who simply stopped the move via a simple thrust.
Step Two- Four Lightsabers: Grievous strikes out at him, Obi leaps over his head, causing a strike made by Grievous to go wide, obiviously disbalancing him, as he turns around and begins striking Obi-Wan, who effortlessly blocks his attacks, moving around, causing Grievous' attacks to go wide, Grievous obiviously leaving himself in difficult, overextended positions- such an example is in 0:45-0:50, when Grievous actually grunts, implying difficult to take on Obi-Wan. Eventually, Grievous' own offense is simply confused and destroyed by Obi-Wan, who takes the liberty to cut off one of Grievous' arms.
Step Three- Three Lightsabers: During this part, you will notice Grievous continuously grunts, implying either difficulty, exauhstion, or simple frustration. As Grievous is a machine likely to not tire out quickly, it was obiviously he was frustrated- his offense begun to grow sloppy, Obi-Wan easily deflecting his strikes and causing Grievous to loose control and start spinning his sabers like a lunatic. Obi-Wan quickly relieves Grievous of another one of his hands.
And there, it's over, there's a saberlock, troops arrive, and we all know the deal.
Now, before you write off this analysis as completely wrong and denying canon, actually beat my analysis. And the analysis of Obi-Wan vs. Maul. Thank you.
I'm not done reading all of this page yet but Maul did have the advantage over duo when he was being driven back Qui-gon recognized this. I can provide the quotes if you like.
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
im just saying after a guy nearly killed me and killed my jedi master with some totally alien form. if I was the most cunning jedi on the counsil, i would probably study up on it and figure out what it was so that nobody else would use it against me. ITs not like its canon or anything. i am just saying.
I know what your saying but the form was considered incomplete to the jedi and no jedi used the form so Kenobi would have nowhere to study it from.
Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
*Sigh*. Didn't we already say that Anoon's was not necessarily the best lightsaber duelist? Oh, and by the way, second to none could mean that he was tied to having the best technical skill with someone such as Yoda or Windu, not necessarily having THE BEST technical skill.
I already addressed this three times now. In the same book Yoda lightsaber skills are called second to none on the council which Anoon was not apart of. While Anoon's were called second to none period and cloak of deception also backs up Anoon's skills.
Originally posted by Sidi-BoyI did not claim Obi-Wan could take Qui-Gon; but due to his anger, he successfully fended off Maul better than Qui-Gon. In a fair match? Hell yeah Qui-Gon would beat him.
only thing i see wrong here. the fight was biased on qui gon's side. Why would qui gon beat him in a fair match if he lost with his padawan by his side?
Sidi Boy my work colleague whose not even a Star Wars fan was seriously laughing when I told him these Star Wars fans think Obi-Wan was almost a match for Maul in Episode 1!! hes like what Maul seriously kicked the crap out of both of them!
he culdnt remember how Obi-Wan killed Maul and was asking me, because he knows Obi-Wan culdnt have beaten him in blade fighting.
You see sometimes its good to get the perspective of someone who just enjoyed the movies but is not a fan. because us Star Wars fans can Analyze too much sometimes saying things like "oh he finished it with a Force Push and not with his blade or with a kick.." as if that actually means something..
It was very clear to your avaerage veiwer that neither Obi-Wan or Qui-Gon was even in Mauls league individually, but together they had a chance... thats why it was exciting with the forcefields seperating them.
Its sad how Star Wars fans who are supposed to have more knowledge seem to sometimes miss the blatantly obvious.
as for the fight sidi boy, that hit that Obi-Wan got on Mauls blade, you have to remember his lightsaber handle was a lot larger than a normal one so does provide a slighlty easier target. Maul was a bit shocked though for like half a second that this padawan managed to do that, but flipped up straight away, and carried on fighting with his remaining blade. so no i dnt think Obi-Wan beat him in sword fighting, or even came close to killing him.
also just before Maul Force pushes Obi-Wan he forces Obi-Wans blade back towards his face with his blade, and then takes the opening for the Force Push. so Maul did come close to hitting Obi1 with his blade. Maul owned him. Obi-Wan seriously didnt have a chance of outdueling him... any fool can see that..
and the only reason they didnt have Maul striking Obi1 down was because Obi1 had to survive that film!!! but Qui-Gon didnt so they had Maul striking him down fairly easily. also Maul didnt have to survive, so if Obi-Wan was capable of striking Maul down in th
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Sidi Boy my work colleague whose not even a Star Wars fan was seriously laughing when I told him these Star Wars fans think Obi-Wan was almost a match for Maul in Episode 1!! hes like what Maul seriously kicked the crap out of both of them!he culdnt remember how Obi-Wan killed Maul and was asking me, because he knows Obi-Wan culdnt have beaten him in blade fighting.
You see sometimes its good to get the perspective of someone who just enjoyed the movies but is not a fan. because us Star Wars fans can Analyze too much sometimes saying things like "oh he finished it with a Force Push and not with his blade or with a kick.." as if that actually means something..
When I first saw the film, I was extremely preplexed, because it meant Qui Gon < Obi-Wan, who beat Maul. Obiviously I was dumber than, but hey... everyone can jump into different conclusions.
I
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
t was very clear to your avaerage veiwer that neither Obi-Wan or Qui-Gon was even in Mauls league individually, but together they had a chance... thats why it was exciting with the forcefields seperating them.
Its sad how Star Wars fans who are supposed to have more knowledge seem to sometimes miss the blatantly obvious.as for the fight sidi boy, that hit that Obi-Wan got on Mauls blade, you have to remember his lightsaber handle was a lot larger than a normal one so does provide a slighlty easier target. Maul was a bit shocked though for like half a second that this padawan managed to do that, but flipped up straight away, and carried on fighting with his remaining blade. so no i dnt think Obi-Wan beat him in sword fighting, or even came close to killing him.
also just before Maul Force pushes Obi-Wan he forces Obi-Wans blade back towards his face with his blade, and then takes the opening for the Force Push. so Maul did come close to hitting Obi1 with his blade. Maul owned him. Obi-Wan seriously didnt have a chance of outdueling him... any fool can see that..
and the only reason they didnt have Maul striking Obi1 down was because Obi1 had to survive that film!!! but Qui-Gon didnt so they had Maul striking him down fairly easily. also Maul didnt have to survive, so if Obi-Wan was capable of striking Maul down in th
Oh, please. Maul also had a double blade lightsaber that would prove as more of an advantage than a disadvantage; don't use the fact that he had a longer hilt as a reason why it was cut by Obi-Wan, because I can say that Qui-Gon lost DUE to him having a longer hilt. But yeah, w/e.
We can never tell what would happen if Maul had striked him with a saber, but I doubt Obi-Wan wouldn't have a counter.
Oh, god no. Just not the 'He had to survive!!!!1" arguments again. People say that all the time... Yoda was stronger than Sidious but Sid had to survive, Mace had to die, etc.. it's stupid.
I agree, by the way, that TPM Obi-Wan < Maul in almost all aspects, but was pretty close at the end NOT DUE TO HIS SKILL, but due to his usage of the dark side.
I think a good parallel is Dooku vs. Anakin; Dooku was, by all rights, more technically skilled, but Anakin got the upper hand due to the fact that he used the dark side in order to empower himself.
I'll say Obi-Wan, on his regular power level, is roughly 80% of Maul's power, while Qui-Gon is probably roughly 85% of his power- Obi-Wan using his rage, though, is something more like 95% of Maul. LOL, this sounds like some anime film... but anyway... if Obi-Wan could force Maul back, imagine the same Obi-Wan, about three times as powerful.
And by the way, do you agree with my points about Grievous, him being the perfect counter for Maul, etc? Because let's not get it off topic about TPM Obi-Wan vs. TPM Maul.