Originally posted by fangirl101Artists and authors are over the Presence and THOTI as far as I'm concerned. Writers and authors who break the fourth wall can erase comic characters on a whim if they want. Comic characters' existence is based on their actions alone. I believe the Presence and THOTI as presented on-panel are not as "free" as artists and writers because they have their own existence within the comics and their own respective roles within the comics as dictated by artists and writers.
I do not believe the presence has ever been seen. There has been the supreme beings mike carlin and grant morrison on panel tho. I guess that would count.
Originally posted by AstnerI've read Ostrander's entire Spectre run. When I asked my question, that's exactly what I was thinking of. That was the only on-panel reference I've seen of the Presence. And even that could be seen as a metaphysical conflict within the Spectre. As far as I am concerned, Thanos w/ THOTI wiped reality out (whether its a universe or a multiverse or an omniverse, I refuse to debate this atm). However, in doing so, he overlooked Adam Warlock. That oversight speaks volumes about THOTI's limitations. Anomalies like Adam Warlock can escape THOTI's influence. Which is very similar to the way Maelstrom /w Anomaly escaped Thanos w/ IG's wrath. Presence has been referrred to but never really depicted concretely, but I don't know if the Presence is subject to anomaly limitations.
The thing with authors is that they aren't fictional. Hence can be seen as the most powerful fictional character in their series.
Nevertheless, with respect to this thread, I've argued this waaaaay back when. Anybody wielding the Power of the Guardians can defeat the Spectre. I riled a hornet's nest here, years ago, when I argued that position when Geoff Johns referred to the Power of the Guardians as dwarfing the Spectre's power in 'Green Lantern: Rebirth.' Nevertheless, I was too polite to mention that: 1) classic Ion (who wielded the entire Power of the Guardians) stated he could screw around with a hosted Spectre; and 2) Hal Jordan Spectre seemingly conceded that notion.
Regardless, I understand that involves speculation since classic Ion enever actually did anything to Hal Jordan Spectre. But I still don't think it takes too much to screw around and overcome a hosted Spectre from these following on-panel instances (and I'm not even talking about the Spear of Destiny): 1) Corrigan Spectre admitted that the Spectre's magicks were worthless in the antimatter universe during 'Crisis on Infinite Earths.' 2) Asmodel Spectre was trapped within Madame Zanadu's crystal ball during 'Day of Judgement.' 3) Hal Jordan Spectre was driven insane by Joker w/ Mxy's power in 'Emperor Joker.' 4) Hal Jordan Spectre's power was also usurped by the fear entity Parallax during 'Green Lantern: Rebirth.' Antimatter limitations... sufficient magical enchantments... 5d imp magic... cosmic entities that appear to be beyond God's wrath... yeah... even hosted Spectre's got plenty of limitations. My 2 cents. I'll save my arguments about Presence backed Spectre for another day.
I have. My idea and yours both involve a bit of speculation. But Thanos on-panel, attempted and absorbed everyone who would oppose him... ever. And whoops... Adam Warlock escaped his notice. But of course he would. What does that mean? I think it's arguable either way. Consdering that Adam Warlock has continuously been depicted as being outside the boundaries of Order and Chaos, been undetectable by Nebula w/ Infinity Gauntlet, etc., I choose to subscribe to the idea that Adam Warlock was simply beyond Thanos w/ THOTI. Not necessarily in power, but influence. That's basically what an anomaly is in Marvel comics.
But it is very arguable that Adam Warlock serves as Thanos' Jimminy Cricket. Nevertheless, the Presence has never appeared to share such a limitation of conscience and need for any limitations for that matter. After all, the Presence has not really done anything on-panel except appear as a deranged old man cannibalizing the archangel Michael because he was beyond such limitations as morality and such. But your theory is just as valid as mine as far as I'm concerned. My intuition just leads me to the former rather than the latter.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Artists and authors are over the Presence and THOTI as far as I'm concerned. Writers and authors who break the fourth wall can erase comic characters on a whim if they want. Comic characters' existence is based on their actions alone. I believe the Presence and THOTI as presented on-panel are not as "free" as artists and writers because they have their own existence within the comics and their own respective roles within the comics as dictated by artists and writers.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Thanos w/ THOTI wiped reality out.
However, in doing so, he overlooked Adam Warlock.
That oversight speaks volumes about THOTI's limitations.
Anomalies like Adam Warlock can escape THOTI's influence.
Imo, Thanos sub-consciously allowed Warlock to survive,
in order for Warlock to "witness" Thanos' "grand gesture"
that "grand gesture" being, ... healing Marvel by re-creating it.
This is Warlock's reply to Thanos after he finds the Time-pace gone,
when Thanos told him,
'I see no reason you should now not share the fate of your comrades'
This is one very possible explanation,
the other is a simpler one that also fits,
Thanos only absorbed All of Time & Space across the Omniverse,
and left out realities outside of Time/Space,
like Atleza's, (cosmic anchor) where Warlock and Gamora were.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Which is very similar
to the way Maelstrom /w Anomaly escaped Thanos w/ IG's wrath.Presence has been referrred to but never really depicted concretely,
but I don't know if the Presence is subject to anomaly limitations.
Presence > IG for sure.
On the other hand, that scenery (involving Thanos and Maelstrom)
has never been fully disclosed, I still don't know what really happened there.
Maelstrom himself admitted the IG was above his power,
so that wasn't the issue.
Imo, Maelstrom was obliterated, (erased)
and instantly returned due to being an avatar of Oblivion at the time.
(Oblivion is "god" over nullified energies)
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Nevertheless, with respect to this thread, I've argued this waaaaay back when. Anybody wielding the Power of the Guardians can defeat the Spectre. I riled a hornet's nest here, years ago, when I argued that position when Geoff Johns referred to the Power of the Guardians as dwarfing the Spectre's power in 'Green Lantern: Rebirth.' Nevertheless, I was too polite to mention that: 1) classic Ion (who wielded the entire Power of the Guardians) stated he could screw around with a hosted Spectre; and 2) Hal Jordan Spectre seemingly conceded that notion.
Regardless, I understand that involves speculation since classic Ion enever actually did anything to Hal Jordan Spectre. But I still don't think it takes too much to screw around and overcome a hosted Spectre from these following on-panel instances (and I'm not even talking about the Spear of Destiny): 1) Corrigan Spectre admitted that the Spectre's magicks were worthless in the antimatter universe during 'Crisis on Infinite Earths.' 2) Asmodel Spectre was trapped within Madame Zanadu's crystal ball during 'Day of Judgement.' 3) Hal Jordan Spectre was driven insane by Joker w/ Mxy's power in 'Emperor Joker.' 4) Hal Jordan Spectre's power was also usurped by the fear entity Parallax during 'Green Lantern: Rebirth.' Antimatter limitations... sufficient magical enchantments... 5d imp magic... cosmic entities that appear to be beyond God's wrath... yeah... even hosted Spectre's got plenty of limitations. My 2 cents. I'll save my arguments about Presence backed Spectre for another day.
Was Parallax above that Spectre in your #4 reference?
Originally posted by Mr MasterWell, I would agree except that Atleza and Gamora were seemingly absorbed. Nothing was left except for Thanos and Adam Warlock. At least, that's what I see depicted on-panel. As far as my recollection serves, Adam Warlock found himself in a void next to Thanos, not altogether sure of what just happened to everything. He didn't sense what happened and then travelled to Thanos to talk to him. Warlock was literally all that was left. But I will have to read 'Marvel: The End' again to argue this with further confidence.
👆 Well put, I been saying this for a while.I have to disagree here.
Imo, Thanos sub-consciously allowed Warlock to survive,
in order for Warlock to "witness" Thanos' "grand gesture"
that "grand gesture" being, ... healing Marvel by re-creating it.This is Warlock's reply to Thanos after he finds the Time-pace gone,
when Thanos told him,
'I see no reason you should now not share the fate of your comrades'This is one very possible explanation,
of Time/Space,
the other is a simpler one that also fits,
Thanos only absorbed All of Time & Space across the Omniverse,
and left out realities [B]outside
like Atleza's, (cosmic anchor) where Warlock and Gamora were.[/b]
Originally posted by Mr MasterI agree that you can't equate the two. But I do feel they are comparable. Or at the very least illustrative of the Marvel concept of having an "anomaly characteristic." In the same way DC has a concept of an individual being "essential to the Source" and thus granted immunity or special protections. In Marvel, if something is anomalous, it lies beyond the normal influence of what is traditionally considered as being omnipotent power and omniscient awareness. Which is why Adam Warlock was able to walk right next to Nebula and be completely past her awareness, despite her possessing the entire Infinity Gauntlet. But I definitely agree that THOTI is above Infinity Gauntlet. That much is inarguably certain.
I wouldn't compare those two.Presence > IG for sure.
On the other hand, that scenery (involving Thanos and Maelstrom)
has never been fully disclosed, I still don't know what really happened there.Maelstrom himself admitted the IG was above his power,
so that wasn't the issue.Imo, Maelstrom was obliterated, (erased)
and instantly returned due to being an avatar of Oblivion at the time.
(Oblivion is "god" over nullified energies)
As for my interpretation of the Maelstrom scene in Quasar #24... it was a canon Infinity Gauntlet crossover. You're right in that Maelstrom was indeed the avatar/agent of the cosmic entity Oblivion. He was to be the agent of Oblivion's purpose, which was to wipe out existence utterly as agreed between the two of them in Quasar #21. However, by the time he confronted Thanos w/ IG, he had already assumed the characteristics of the cosmic entity Anomaly when Maelstrom slew Anomaly in Quasar #20.
By assuming such characteristics, he was immune to Thanos's IG power. Indeed, in their penultimate battle, Quasar had also assumed anomalous characteristics (due to the cosmic being Origin undoing the other cosmic being Un-Being's manipulation of Quasar's origin/existence) which proved to put him and Maelstrom on an even keel. As such, the presence of Anomaly and the idea of anomaly was ever-present during the Maelstrom confrontation and serves as the most simple and direct answer as to why Maelstrom was immune to Thanos w/ IG in the same way Adam Warlock appeared to operate outside of the Infinity Gauntlet's influence. But your interpretation is arguable. I'd just like to point out that Deathurge is also an avatar/agent of Oblivion and he doesn't instantaneously return from being defeated/obliterated in the several times he has confronted Quasar. So I'll leave everyone else to interpret what they will from that.
Originally posted by Mr MasterBottom-line, Parallax is not above Spectre. But neither is Spectre above Parallax. Parallax is able to operate unaffected by Spectre's direct Wrath of God powers and proved himself capable of usurping Spectre's powers for his own evil purposes (much to the Spectre's dismay). At the same time, while Hal Jordan was overcoming fear in his own soul and weakening Parallax's hold on the both of them, the Spectre was able to exert power and assist Hal Jordan in ultimately separating the two. It's hard to figure out who's above who on either a power scale or hierarchy scale.
Interesting and informative, my DC ignorance is no secret, 😛
I love picking up knowledge though where ever I can.Was Parallax above that Spectre in your #4 reference?
Nevertheless, from on-panel scenes, Parallax simply appeared to be immune to Spectre's overall influence. I believe that it is due to his status as the cosmic embodiment of fear. As such, he is beyond vengeance in the "moral" sense. This idea is made more obvious by Spectre's own words. During 'Green Lantern: Rebirth,' the Spectre revealed that he had originally binded himself to Hal Jordan's soul to burn out Parallax and cast vengeance upon him for the suffering he had caused. Spectre was binded to Hal Jordan waaaay back in 1999 during 'Day of Judgment.' 'Green Lantern: Rebirth' occurred in 2004-2005. So the entire time that Spectre was bonded to Hal Jordan, the Spectre couldn't accomplish this burning out of Parallax. And by the time of 'Green Lantern: Rebirth,' Parallax had usurped the Spectre's power and began attacking the JLA and possessing Guy Gardner, Kilowog, John Stewart and basically doing this to Spectre:
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Well, I would agree except that Atleza and Gamora were seemingly absorbed. Nothing was left except for Thanos and Adam Warlock. At least, that's what I see depicted on-panel. As far as my recollection serves, Adam Warlock found himself in a void next to Thanos, not altogether sure of what just happened to everything. He didn't sense what happened and then travelled to Thanos to talk to him. Warlock was literally all that was left. But I will have to read 'Marvel: The End' again to argue this with further confidence.
"You & Gamora were outside this Reality,
tending Atleza, this Actuality's Cosmic Anchor"
....................................................................................
The Cosmic Anchor's domain is outside of Space-Time,
so one of two possibilities exist.
1. Either Thanos ONLY absorbed all of Space & Time. (not realms outside of it)
2. Atleza's realm just happened to be where Warlock was at,
and Thanos wanted Warlock to witness his "grand gesture
Which is probably the reason why the ONLY other being that appears is Death,
it's not a coincidence that Thanos would sub-consciously allow her to survive as well.
Although Warlock attributed her survival to being located outside of Space-Time.
Imo, #2, and the reason I just explained why Death lived, fits.
Why?
Because in Starlin's interview, which I have the link for if you're interested,
he explains that the Marvel Universe was destroyed by Thanos,
but originally, it was supposed to be for good,
he states that originally it was going to be non-canon,
because destroying all of Marvel for ever was impossible,
so they supposed Jim place the story in a twin reality that resembles Marvel, but wasn't,
Jim didn't like the idea, he wanted it to be canon,
so he instead proposed Thanos re-creating the Marvel Universe at the end,
therefore allowing the story to stay canon, which of course, it is.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0I agree that you can't equate the two. But I do feel they are comparable. Or at the very least illustrative of the Marvel concept of having an "anomaly characteristic." In the same way DC has a concept of an individual being "essential to the Source" and thus granted immunity or special protections. In Marvel, if something is anomalous, it lies beyond the normal influence of what is traditionally considered as being omnipotent power and omniscient awareness.
Which is why Adam Warlock was able to walk right next to Nebula and be completely past her awareness,
despite her possessing the entire Infinity Gauntlet.
In fact, Warlock even admitted her unstable mind allowed him to do that,
that would've never worked on a stable mind like Thanos',
which Warlock also admitted:
Warlock is outside the influence of Eternity, Order and Chaos,
but not of the IG in a proper hand.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0But I definitely agree that THOTI is above Infinity Gauntlet. That much is inarguably certain.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0As for my interpretation of the Maelstrom scene in Quasar #24... it was a canon Infinity Gauntlet crossover. You're right in that Maelstrom was indeed the avatar/agent of the cosmic entity Oblivion. He was to be the agent of Oblivion's purpose, which was to wipe out existence utterly as agreed between the two of them in Quasar #21. However, by the time he confronted Thanos w/ IG, he had already assumed the characteristics of the cosmic entity Anomaly when Maelstrom slew Anomaly in Quasar #20.
By assuming such characteristics, he was immune to Thanos's IG power. Indeed, in their penultimate battle, Quasar had also assumed anomalous characteristics (due to the cosmic being Origin undoing the other cosmic being Un-Being's manipulation of Quasar's origin/existence) which proved to put him and Maelstrom on an even keel. As such, the presence of Anomaly and the idea of anomaly was ever-present during the Maelstrom confrontation and serves as the most simple and direct answer as to why Maelstrom was immune to Thanos w/ IG in the same way Adam Warlock appeared to operate outside of the Infinity Gauntlet's influence.
And I'm sure you'll agree the Warlock incident has been cleared.
So I have to disagree.
Maelstrom was definitely not above the IG at any time,
that's my take from everything Maelstrom did with his power,
and everything Thanos did.
Maelstrom talked some trash, got obliterated,
re-appeared then disappeared and was never seen again concerning/involving the IG.
Here's the scene
It's definitely open to interpretation.
But Maelstrom needed to use a Black Hole to try and collapse the Universe,
and never succeeded, he was opposed by an Infinity amped Quasar.
Thanos not only stomped the entire hierarchy,
but wanted to become the Universe,
and succeeded.
IG > Infinity/Eternity and everything else save the LT. (from what we've seen)
Originally posted by OneDumbG0But your interpretation is arguable. I'd just like to point out that Deathurge is also an avatar/agent of Oblivion and he doesn't instantaneously return from being defeated/obliterated in the several times he has confronted Quasar. So I'll leave everyone else to interpret what they will from that.
I'm guessing Maelstrom was a more valuable asset.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Bottom-line, Parallax is not above Spectre. But neither is Spectre above Parallax. Parallax is able to operate unaffected by Spectre's direct Wrath of God powers and proved himself capable of usurping Spectre's powers for his own evil purposes (much to the Spectre's dismay). At the same time, while Hal Jordan was overcoming fear in his own soul and weakening Parallax's hold on the both of them, the Spectre was able to exert power and assist Hal Jordan in ultimately separating the two. It's hard to figure out who's above who on either a power scale or hierarchy scale.
Nevertheless, from on-panel scenes, Parallax simply appeared to be immune to Spectre's overall influence. I believe that it is due to his status as the cosmic embodiment of fear. As such, he is beyond vengeance in the "moral" sense. This idea is made more obvious by Spectre's own words. During 'Green Lantern: Rebirth,' the Spectre revealed that he had originally binded himself to Hal Jordan's soul to burn out Parallax and cast vengeance upon him for the suffering he had caused. Spectre was binded to Hal Jordan waaaay back in 1999 during 'Day of Judgment.' 'Green Lantern: Rebirth' occurred in 2004-2005. So the entire time that Spectre was bonded to Hal Jordan, the Spectre couldn't accomplish this burning out of Parallax. And by the time of 'Green Lantern: Rebirth,' Parallax had usurped the Spectre's power and began attacking the JLA and possessing Guy Gardner, Kilowog, John Stewart and basically doing this to Spectre:
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Intersting
Well, I would agree except that Atleza and Gamora were seemingly absorbed. Nothing was left except for Thanos and Adam Warlock. At least, that's what I see depicted on-panel. As far as my recollection serves, Adam Warlock found himself in a void next to Thanos, not altogether sure of what just happened to everything. He didn't sense what happened and then travelled to Thanos to talk to him. Warlock was literally all that was left. But I will have to read 'Marvel: The End' again to argue this with further confidence.
I agree that you can't equate the two. But I do feel they are comparable. Or at the very least illustrative of the Marvel concept of having an "anomaly characteristic." In the same way DC has a concept of an individual being "essential to the Source" and thus granted immunity or special protections. In Marvel, if something is anomalous, it lies beyond the normal influence of what is traditionally considered as being omnipotent power and omniscient awareness. Which is why Adam Warlock was able to walk right next to Nebula and be completely past her awareness, despite her possessing the entire Infinity Gauntlet. But I definitely agree that THOTI is above Infinity Gauntlet. That much is inarguably certain.As for my interpretation of the Maelstrom scene in Quasar #24... it was a canon Infinity Gauntlet crossover. You're right in that Maelstrom was indeed the avatar/agent of the cosmic entity Oblivion. He was to be the agent of Oblivion's purpose, which was to wipe out existence utterly as agreed between the two of them in Quasar #21. However, by the time he confronted Thanos w/ IG, he had already assumed the characteristics of the cosmic entity Anomaly when Maelstrom slew Anomaly in Quasar #20.
By assuming such characteristics, he was immune to Thanos's IG power. Indeed, in their penultimate battle, Quasar had also assumed anomalous characteristics (due to the cosmic being Origin undoing the other cosmic being Un-Being's manipulation of Quasar's origin/existence) which proved to put him and Maelstrom on an even keel. As such, the presence of Anomaly and the idea of anomaly was ever-present during the Maelstrom confrontation and serves as the most simple and direct answer as to why Maelstrom was immune to Thanos w/ IG in the same way Adam Warlock appeared to operate outside of the Infinity Gauntlet's influence. But your interpretation is arguable. I'd just like to point out that Deathurge is also an avatar/agent of Oblivion and he doesn't instantaneously return from being defeated/obliterated in the several times he has confronted Quasar. So I'll leave everyone else to interpret what they will from that.
Bottom-line, Parallax is not above Spectre. But neither is Spectre above Parallax. Parallax is able to operate unaffected by Spectre's direct Wrath of God powers and proved himself capable of usurping Spectre's powers for his own evil purposes (much to the Spectre's dismay). At the same time, while Hal Jordan was overcoming fear in his own soul and weakening Parallax's hold on the both of them, the Spectre was able to exert power and assist Hal Jordan in ultimately separating the two. It's hard to figure out who's above who on either a power scale or hierarchy scale.Nevertheless, from on-panel scenes, Parallax simply appeared to be immune to Spectre's overall influence. I believe that it is due to his status as the cosmic embodiment of fear. As such, he is beyond vengeance in the "moral" sense. This idea is made more obvious by Spectre's own words. During 'Green Lantern: Rebirth,' the Spectre revealed that he had originally binded himself to Hal Jordan's soul to burn out Parallax and cast vengeance upon him for the suffering he had caused. Spectre was binded to Hal Jordan waaaay back in 1999 during 'Day of Judgment.' 'Green Lantern: Rebirth' occurred in 2004-2005. So the entire time that Spectre was bonded to Hal Jordan, the Spectre couldn't accomplish this burning out of Parallax. And by the time of 'Green Lantern: Rebirth,' Parallax had usurped the Spectre's power and began attacking the JLA and possessing Guy Gardner, Kilowog, John Stewart and basically doing this to Spectre:
If you had to decide between ParallaxandSpectre who prevails?
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Daaamn.
Well, I would agree except that Atleza and Gamora were seemingly absorbed. Nothing was left except for Thanos and Adam Warlock. At least, that's what I see depicted on-panel. As far as my recollection serves, Adam Warlock found himself in a void next to Thanos, not altogether sure of what just happened to everything. He didn't sense what happened and then travelled to Thanos to talk to him. Warlock was literally all that was left. But I will have to read 'Marvel: The End' again to argue this with further confidence.
I agree that you can't equate the two. But I do feel they are comparable. Or at the very least illustrative of the Marvel concept of having an "anomaly characteristic." In the same way DC has a concept of an individual being "essential to the Source" and thus granted immunity or special protections. In Marvel, if something is anomalous, it lies beyond the normal influence of what is traditionally considered as being omnipotent power and omniscient awareness. Which is why Adam Warlock was able to walk right next to Nebula and be completely past her awareness, despite her possessing the entire Infinity Gauntlet. But I definitely agree that THOTI is above Infinity Gauntlet. That much is inarguably certain.As for my interpretation of the Maelstrom scene in Quasar #24... it was a canon Infinity Gauntlet crossover. You're right in that Maelstrom was indeed the avatar/agent of the cosmic entity Oblivion. He was to be the agent of Oblivion's purpose, which was to wipe out existence utterly as agreed between the two of them in Quasar #21. However, by the time he confronted Thanos w/ IG, he had already assumed the characteristics of the cosmic entity Anomaly when Maelstrom slew Anomaly in Quasar #20.
By assuming such characteristics, he was immune to Thanos's IG power. Indeed, in their penultimate battle, Quasar had also assumed anomalous characteristics (due to the cosmic being Origin undoing the other cosmic being Un-Being's manipulation of Quasar's origin/existence) which proved to put him and Maelstrom on an even keel. As such, the presence of Anomaly and the idea of anomaly was ever-present during the Maelstrom confrontation and serves as the most simple and direct answer as to why Maelstrom was immune to Thanos w/ IG in the same way Adam Warlock appeared to operate outside of the Infinity Gauntlet's influence. But your interpretation is arguable. I'd just like to point out that Deathurge is also an avatar/agent of Oblivion and he doesn't instantaneously return from being defeated/obliterated in the several times he has confronted Quasar. So I'll leave everyone else to interpret what they will from that.
Bottom-line, Parallax is not above Spectre. But neither is Spectre above Parallax. Parallax is able to operate unaffected by Spectre's direct Wrath of God powers and proved himself capable of usurping Spectre's powers for his own evil purposes (much to the Spectre's dismay). At the same time, while Hal Jordan was overcoming fear in his own soul and weakening Parallax's hold on the both of them, the Spectre was able to exert power and assist Hal Jordan in ultimately separating the two. It's hard to figure out who's above who on either a power scale or hierarchy scale.Nevertheless, from on-panel scenes, Parallax simply appeared to be immune to Spectre's overall influence. I believe that it is due to his status as the cosmic embodiment of fear. As such, he is beyond vengeance in the "moral" sense. This idea is made more obvious by Spectre's own words. During 'Green Lantern: Rebirth,' the Spectre revealed that he had originally binded himself to Hal Jordan's soul to burn out Parallax and cast vengeance upon him for the suffering he had caused. Spectre was binded to Hal Jordan waaaay back in 1999 during 'Day of Judgment.' 'Green Lantern: Rebirth' occurred in 2004-2005. So the entire time that Spectre was bonded to Hal Jordan, the Spectre couldn't accomplish this burning out of Parallax. And by the time of 'Green Lantern: Rebirth,' Parallax had usurped the Spectre's power and began attacking the JLA and possessing Guy Gardner, Kilowog, John Stewart and basically doing this to Spectre:
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Spectre couldnt burn out his influence, well how about that. This intrigues me. I may read this.
Artists and authors are over the Presence and THOTI as far as I'm concerned. Writers and authors who break the fourth wall can erase comic characters on a whim if they want. Comic characters' existence is based on their actions alone. I believe the Presence and THOTI as presented on-panel are not as "free" as artists and writers because they have their own existence within the comics and their own respective roles within the comics as dictated by artists and writers.
I've read Ostrander's entire Spectre run. When I asked my question, that's exactly what I was thinking of. That was the only on-panel reference I've seen of the Presence. And even that could be seen as a metaphysical conflict within the Spectre. As far as I am concerned, Thanos w/ THOTI wiped reality out (whether its a universe or a multiverse or an omniverse, I refuse to debate this atm). However, in doing so, he overlooked Adam Warlock. That oversight speaks volumes about THOTI's limitations. Anomalies like Adam Warlock can escape THOTI's influence. Which is very similar to the way Maelstrom /w Anomaly escaped Thanos w/ IG's wrath. Presence has been referrred to but never really depicted concretely, but I don't know if the Presence is subject to anomaly limitations.Nevertheless, with respect to this thread, I've argued this waaaaay back when. Anybody wielding the Power of the Guardians can defeat the Spectre. I riled a hornet's nest here, years ago, when I argued that position when Geoff Johns referred to the Power of the Guardians as dwarfing the Spectre's power in 'Green Lantern: Rebirth.' Nevertheless, I was too polite to mention that: 1) classic Ion (who wielded the entire Power of the Guardians) stated he could screw around with a hosted Spectre; and 2) Hal Jordan Spectre seemingly conceded that notion.
Regardless, I understand that involves speculation since classic Ion enever actually did anything to Hal Jordan Spectre. But I still don't think it takes too much to screw around and overcome a hosted Spectre from these following on-panel instances (and I'm not even talking about the Spear of Destiny): 1) Corrigan Spectre admitted that the Spectre's magicks were worthless in the antimatter universe during 'Crisis on Infinite Earths.' 2) Asmodel Spectre was trapped within Madame Zanadu's crystal ball during 'Day of Judgement.' 3) Hal Jordan Spectre was driven insane by Joker w/ Mxy's power in 'Emperor Joker.' 4) Hal Jordan Spectre's power was also usurped by the fear entity Parallax during 'Green Lantern: Rebirth.' Antimatter limitations... sufficient magical enchantments... 5d imp magic... cosmic entities that appear to be beyond God's wrath... yeah... even hosted Spectre's got plenty of limitations. My 2 cents. I'll save my arguments about Presence backed Spectre for another day.
The reason I think Gamora and Atleza and that lil pocket realm they were living in were also absorbed is because of Adam Warlock's reply at the end of that scan you posted:
Thanos: "Adam Warlock, only you could somehow miss the end of the universe. Of course, you and Gamora were outside this reality, tending young Atleza, this actuality's cosmic anchor."
Adam Warlock responds, "A task that unexpectedly terminated. What has transpired?"
I interpreted this conversation as Thanos reminding us that although Adam Warlock has always been wrapped up in Thanos' adventures, Adam Warlock was busy at the time doing other things and so didn't get involved in most of the 'Marvel Universe: The End' affair. However, this other task that preoccupied him abruptly ended when Thanos finished going nuts on the entire Marvel Universe. If his tending of Atleza ended, I'm guessing that the reason would be because Atleza got absorbed too and Adam Warlock went, "Huh? Where did everything just go?"
But everything you explained is exceptionally reasonable as well. I had forgotten about Death's appearance also. That surely supports your notion that Thanos' subconscious mind and/or their location outside space/time was the reason Warlock survived. But my intuition is nagging me a bit and honestly, I'll have to read it again myself when I got the time.
And the same about everything else you posted. I can see no inconsistencies with interpreting it your way and it all fits. I'll have to re-read those Quasar issues also. Peace.
Originally posted by EstacadoI did read it. Hell, Darkseid was protected from Hal Jordan Spectre's wrath powers in that run. Thanks for reminding me about it. Because my favorite part of that entire J.M. Dematteis run, other than Ryan Sook's art, was Monsieur Stigmonus. A character who, at first, appeared to be a cosmic entity that simply existed to torment Hal Jordan Spectre. He was also immune to the Spectre's original wrath powers because he represented pain, misery, doubt, despair, and hopelessness. Indeed, he only grew stronger. It was only when Hal tried to subvert the Spectre into a Spirit of Redemption that he got anywhere when dealing with Monsieur Stigmonus, like when he tried to trap Stigmonus in an illusion full of misery. Of course, Stigmonus lets us know that he isn't fooled and returns again. Even at the end of the series, their conflict was never truly resolved and his motivations never truly revealed.
How about you read Spectre v4 before posting crap?
Spectre v4 was good because bottom-line, by using Hal Jordan Spectre's adventures, J.M. Dematteis was speaking to the reader about every single person's capacity to change the world for the better. That book had more purpose than mere entertainment. Maybe you yourself ought to read it again?
Originally posted by OneDumbG0I took thanos missing adam warlock as part of the master schemer's plan. thanos says that he was tricked and bamboozled by someone above him to do the dirty work. obviously the master schemer did not want thanos to erase adam. lest the story not end correctly.
The reason I think Gamora and Atleza and that lil pocket realm they were living in were also absorbed is because of Adam Warlock's reply at the end of that scan you posted:Thanos: "Adam Warlock, only you could somehow miss the end of the universe. Of course, you and Gamora were outside this reality, tending young Atleza, this actuality's cosmic anchor."
Adam Warlock responds, "A task that unexpectedly terminated. What has transpired?"
I interpreted this conversation as Thanos reminding us that although Adam Warlock has always been wrapped up in Thanos' adventures, Adam Warlock was busy at the time doing other things and so didn't get involved in most of the 'Marvel Universe: The End' affair. However, this other task that preoccupied him abruptly ended when Thanos finished going nuts on the entire Marvel Universe. If his tending of Atleza ended, I'm guessing that the reason would be because Atleza got absorbed too and Adam Warlock went, "Huh? Where did everything just go?"
But everything you explained is exceptionally reasonable as well. I had forgotten about Death's appearance also. That surely supports your notion that Thanos' subconscious mind and/or their location outside space/time was the reason Warlock survived. But my intuition is nagging me a bit and honestly, I'll have to read it again myself when I got the time.
And the same about everything else you posted. I can see no inconsistencies with interpreting it your way and it all fits. I'll have to re-read those Quasar issues also. Peace.I did read it. Hell, Darkseid was protected from Hal Jordan Spectre's wrath powers in that run. Thanks for reminding me about it. Because my favorite part of that entire J.M. Dematteis run, other than Ryan Sook's art, was Monsieur Stigmonus. A character who, at first, appeared to be a cosmic entity that simply existed to torment Hal Jordan Spectre. He was also immune to the Spectre's original wrath powers because he represented pain, misery, doubt, despair, and hopelessness. Indeed, he only grew stronger. It was only when Hal tried to subvert the Spectre into a Spirit of Redemption that he got anywhere when dealing with Monsieur Stigmonus, like when he tried to trap Stigmonus in an illusion full of misery. Of course, Stigmonus lets us know that he isn't fooled and returns again. Even at the end of the series, their conflict was never truly resolved and his motivations never truly revealed.
Spectre v4 was good because bottom-line, by using Hal Jordan Spectre's adventures, J.M. Dematteis was speaking to the reader about every single person's capacity to change the world for the better. That book had more purpose than mere entertainment. Maybe you yourself ought to read it again?
Originally posted by OneDumbG0The reason I think Gamora and Atleza and that lil pocket realm they were living in were also absorbed is because of Adam Warlock's reply at the end of that scan you posted:
Thanos: "Adam Warlock, only you could somehow miss the end of the universe. Of course, you and Gamora were outside this reality, tending young Atleza, this actuality's cosmic anchor."
Adam Warlock responds, "A task that unexpectedly terminated. What has transpired?"
I interpreted this conversation as Thanos reminding us that although Adam Warlock has always been wrapped up in Thanos' adventures, Adam Warlock was busy at the time doing other things and so didn't get involved in most of the 'Marvel Universe: The End' affair. However, this other task that preoccupied him abruptly ended when Thanos finished going nuts on the entire Marvel Universe. If his tending of Atleza ended, I'm guessing that the reason would be because Atleza got absorbed too and Adam Warlock went, "Huh? Where did everything just go?"
Originally posted by OneDumbG0But everything you explained is exceptionally reasonable as well. I had forgotten about Death's appearance also. That surely supports your notion that Thanos' subconscious mind and/or their location outside space/time was the reason Warlock survived. But my intuition is nagging me a bit and honestly, I'll have to read it again myself when I got the time.
And the same about everything else you posted. I can see no inconsistencies with interpreting it your way and it all fits. I'll have to re-read those Quasar issues also. Peace.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Yes the Spectre couldnt permanently erase Darkseid. This character seems interesing also the one who exists just to torment the Spectre. I knew the Spectres powers and what not were exaggerated. I admit hes very powerful but this Stigmonus it seems existed to torture the Spectre. Wow. Someone was bullying the Spectre. And some posters compare him to the Lt.
The reason I think Gamora and Atleza and that lil pocket realm they were living in were also absorbed is because of Adam Warlock's reply at the end of that scan you posted:Thanos: "Adam Warlock, only you could somehow miss the end of the universe. Of course, you and Gamora were outside this reality, tending young Atleza, this actuality's cosmic anchor."
Adam Warlock responds, "A task that unexpectedly terminated. What has transpired?"
I interpreted this conversation as Thanos reminding us that although Adam Warlock has always been wrapped up in Thanos' adventures, Adam Warlock was busy at the time doing other things and so didn't get involved in most of the 'Marvel Universe: The End' affair. However, this other task that preoccupied him abruptly ended when Thanos finished going nuts on the entire Marvel Universe. If his tending of Atleza ended, I'm guessing that the reason would be because Atleza got absorbed too and Adam Warlock went, "Huh? Where did everything just go?"
But everything you explained is exceptionally reasonable as well. I had forgotten about Death's appearance also. That surely supports your notion that Thanos' subconscious mind and/or their location outside space/time was the reason Warlock survived. But my intuition is nagging me a bit and honestly, I'll have to read it again myself when I got the time.
And the same about everything else you posted. I can see no inconsistencies with interpreting it your way and it all fits. I'll have to re-read those Quasar issues also. Peace.I did read it. Hell, Darkseid was protected from Hal Jordan Spectre's wrath powers in that run. Thanks for reminding me about it. Because my favorite part of that entire J.M. Dematteis run, other than Ryan Sook's art, was Monsieur Stigmonus. A character who, at first, appeared to be a cosmic entity that simply existed to torment Hal Jordan Spectre. He was also immune to the Spectre's original wrath powers because he represented pain, misery, doubt, despair, and hopelessness. Indeed, he only grew stronger. It was only when Hal tried to subvert the Spectre into a Spirit of Redemption that he got anywhere when dealing with Monsieur Stigmonus, like when he tried to trap Stigmonus in an illusion full of misery. Of course, Stigmonus lets us know that he isn't fooled and returns again. Even at the end of the series, their conflict was never truly resolved and his motivations never truly revealed.
Spectre v4 was good because bottom-line, by using Hal Jordan Spectre's adventures, J.M. Dematteis was speaking to the reader about every single person's capacity to change the world for the better. That book had more purpose than mere entertainment. Maybe you yourself ought to read it again?
What issues may I ask did this tormenting of the Spectre take place? 😄
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I did read it. Hell, Darkseid was protected from Hal Jordan Spectre's wrath powers in that run. Thanks for reminding me about it. Because my favorite part of that entire J.M. Dematteis run, other than Ryan Sook's art, was Monsieur Stigmonus. A character who, at first, appeared to be a cosmic entity that simply existed to torment Hal Jordan Spectre. He was also immune to the Spectre's original wrath powers because he represented pain, misery, doubt, despair, and hopelessness. Indeed, he only grew stronger. It was only when Hal tried to subvert the Spectre into a Spirit of Redemption that he got anywhere when dealing with Monsieur Stigmonus, like when he tried to trap Stigmonus in an illusion full of misery. Of course, Stigmonus lets us know that he isn't fooled and returns again. Even at the end of the series, their conflict was never truly resolved and his motivations never truly revealed.Spectre v4 was good because bottom-line, by using Hal Jordan Spectre's adventures, J.M. Dematteis was speaking to the reader about every single person's capacity to change the world for the better. That book had more purpose than mere entertainment. Maybe you yourself ought to read it again?
As for Spectre vs Parallax
Originally posted by quanchi112
Yes the Spectre couldnt permanently erase Darkseid. This character seems interesing also the one who exists just to torment the Spectre. I knew the Spectres powers and what not were exaggerated. I admit hes very powerful but this Stigmonus it seems existed to torture the Spectre. Wow. Someone was bullying the Spectre. And some posters compare him to the Lt.What issues may I ask did this tormenting of the Spectre take place? 😄
Check the Volume 4 section of my thread and you'll see amost of the encounters between Spectre and Stigmonus.
