Originally posted by OneDumbG0Nice scans. The Spectre was pleading with him basically not to do it. He couldnt stop him.
Since when is the ability to use time-travel against the rules in KMC vs. battles? He could, and Hal Jordan Spectre conceded this. If classic Ion ever got into a battle with Hal Jordan Spectre and got tired of his lectures and wanted to be a jerk, he'd do exactly that and be rid of his involvement. I don't really dispute the fact that Spectre could try and stop him. But I don't see classic Ion's ability to do so as being reliant on Spectre's permission. The fact is, Hal Jordan Spectre knew Kyle was considering it and outright pleaded with Kyle to stop him from attempting it, not the other way around as you interpret it:
http://img178.imageshack.us/my.php?image=greenlanternv3150pg12aw2.jpg
http://img151.imageshack.us/my.php?image=greenlanternv3150pg13xa2.jpg
http://img178.imageshack.us/my.php?image=greenlanternv3150pg14oi9.jpg
http://img151.imageshack.us/my.php?image=greenlanternv3150pg15mp1.jpg
Oh really? How your pointing out that Hallax defeated Spectre at the dawn of time as aiding your position is beyond me. Especially when there was a whole band of heroes attacking Parallax while Ray, Captain Atom, Darkstar and Kyle were absorbing Parallax's energy. Meanwhile, Corrigan Spectre caused a new Big Bang by dumped extra energy into a Damage that had already had all the funneled energy that was stolen from Parallax and the fledgling universe. That escape your memory?
http://img363.imageshack.us/my.php?image=17ka9.jpg
http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/453/zerohour017wn7.jpg
http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/4561/zerohour018gu9.jpg
http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/2699/zerohour019qt0.jpg
http://img250.imageshack.us/img250/4164/zerohour020cj0.jpg
I never said the entity Parallax was above Spectre in feats or stature. I specifically said he wasn't. I only pointed out that the Spectre's wrath power is ineffective against the Parallax entity directly, as concretely demonstrated by Spectre's complete failure to burn him out and cast vengeance on him for all the years they existed as the merged Spectrehallax. I'm speaking of a hosted Spectre's limitations. I don't care if that threatens your idea of a cosmic hierarchy based on feats alone.
This indeed gets some truth out there about Spectre and also helps erase this myth that he can beat whoever he wants which is entirely untrue.
I also find it interesting that people always give the Spectre all the credit in defeating the Am or Parallax it seems when its obvious it wa s huge group effort which also implies the Spectre would fail on his own.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0👆
Eminently reasonable. However I simply took exception to interpreting that scene as Ion only being able to time travel and rewrite the universe as being wholly dependant on Spectre's permission. To characterize that scene as if Kyle is begging permission from the Spectre like Juntai does is nonsense. Kyle was not seeking Spectre's permission to do it, only his reasons for why he shouldn't. And Spectre ended up pleading his case to Kyle and ultimately resigning that the choice was Kyle's.
Originally posted by fangirl101Juntai misconstrued the event entirely. Spectre from his own words was asking him not to do it. Kyle was not begging permission as juntai suggested. It is false.
Do you even understand the concepts that I brought up and what his response really means? What are you giving thumbs up to? please, tell us all.
The choice was Kyles and his alone. 🙂
Originally posted by quanchi112
Juntai misconstrued the event entirely. Spectre from his own words was asking him not to do it. Kyle was not begging permission as juntai suggested. It is false.The choice was Kyles and his alone. 🙂
Spectre wasn't asking kyle in the sense not to do it becuz he couldn't stop him or couldnt beat him. he was asking kyle not to do it becuz there are concequences. In the dcu, THEY GO BY THE MORE TRADITIONAL theology of the christian god. which allows everyone to have choice. that is the basis of the spectre. he punishes those who choose to do wrong. he doesn't go around stopping people before they do wrong. becuz hal, and kyle were freinds, he was appealing to kyle in a way that he wouldn't do for anyone else and hasn't done for anyone else.
Originally posted by fangirl101Thats up for debate. The point is Spectre wasnt telling him he couldnt do it. Ion vs Spectre is another debate entirely.
Spectre wasn't asking kyle in the sense not to do it becuz he couldn't stop him or couldnt beat him. he was asking kyle not to do it becuz there are concequences. In the dcu, THEY GO BY THE MORE TRADITIONAL theology of the christian god. which allows everyone to have choice. that is the basis of the spectre. he punishes those who choose to do wrong. he doesn't go around stopping people before they do wrong. becuz hal, and kyle were freinds, he was appealing to kyle in a way that he wouldn't do for anyone else and hasn't done for anyone else.
Originally posted by EstacadoWhen did I say he couldnt. Its highly debatable what would happen either way. Another poster claimed the opposite and scans were given showing the truth. 🙂
You don't even make sense....haermm
Do you expect Hal to lay a smackdown on one of his friends just becuase he wants to make everything right in both of their lives/past?
Originally posted by OneDumbG0There is no outright pleading in your scans, just moral guidance. Sure Kyle can timetravel and fix the events that caused Hal to become the Spectre, but at the same time, when you're failing to consider from my post, is that Spectre/Hal can time-travel as well, and in fact, is written in continuity to have altered some of the events that caused him to come to that stage already.
Since when is the ability to use time-travel against the rules in KMC vs. battles? He could, and Hal Jordan Spectre conceded this. If classic Ion ever got into a battle with Hal Jordan Spectre and got tired of his lectures and wanted to be a jerk, he'd do exactly that and be rid of his involvement. I don't really dispute the fact that Spectre could try and stop him. But I don't see classic Ion's ability to do so as being reliant on Spectre's permission. The fact is, Hal Jordan Spectre knew Kyle was considering it and outright pleaded with Kyle to stop him from attempting it, not the other way around as you interpret it:
http://img178.imageshack.us/my.php?image=greenlanternv3150pg12aw2.jpg
http://img151.imageshack.us/my.php?image=greenlanternv3150pg13xa2.jpg
http://img178.imageshack.us/my.php?image=greenlanternv3150pg14oi9.jpg
[url]http://img151.imageshack.us/my.php?image=greenlanternv3150pg15mp1.jpg[/url
Originally posted by OneDumbG0You misrepresenting with half-truths and hidden agendas is clear throughout these posts. It has nothing to do with me misconstruing what you wrote, but you clearly 'forgetting' extra facts all through your posts in this thread.
I said he contained the entire Power of the Guardians. Not an individual Guardian's power. I didn't miscontrue anything, but it's clear you're miscontruing my posts by accusing me of lying. And on that note, a single Guardian's power is not to be scoffed at anyway:
http://img109.imageshack.us/my.php?image=11rx8.jpg
http://img119.imageshack.us/my.php?image=13cg0.jpgThese events happened after 'Zero Hour.' Depending on how you read 'Zero Hour,' Hallax had pretty much lost all his energies creating a new universe. Which is why after 'Zero Hour,' Hallax tried to absorb Oa before Kyle destroyed it and confronted Ganthet in the above scans. Once Ganthet gave his personal power to Hallax he went around doing stuff like defeating Cyborg and restoring the Earth from all the damage the Suneater wrought in 'Final Night.'
And depending on how you interpret classic Ion's power, ask yourself this: Where exactly did all the left over energies of the Power of the Guardians originally come from? They were contained in Hallax's body and absorbed by Kyle, sure. But if 'Zero Hour' diminished those original accumulated Central Power Battery's energies... what was the ultimate source of Kyle's classic Ion powers? Maybe the more appropriate question is, "Who?"
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Notice how after Spectre and Hal battled, it turned into a giant MMA fight, and Hal was powerless. Meanwhile Spectre still packed enough power to biggest contributor to the Big Bang -- as is evident froM Damage's remarks.
Oh really? How your pointing out that Hallax defeated Spectre at the dawn of time as aiding your position is beyond me. Especially when there was a whole band of heroes attacking Parallax while Ray, Captain Atom, Darkstar and Kyle were absorbing Parallax's energy. Meanwhile, Corrigan Spectre caused a new Big Bang by dumped extra energy into a Damage that had already had all the funneled energy that was stolen from Parallax and the fledgling universe. That escape your memory?
http://img363.imageshack.us/my.php?image=17ka9.jpg
http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/453/zerohour017wn7.jpg
http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/4561/zerohour018gu9.jpg
http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/2699/zerohour019qt0.jpg
http://img250.imageshack.us/img250/4164/zerohour020cj0.jpg
And lets not try to pretend Batgirl, and Green Arrow, and the other street levelers are the reason Hal went powerless in that fight. It's quite clear Spectre battled him till he was powerless, and still packed MASSIVE energy.
And I gotta run to work.
Originally posted by Juntaiit is obviousthe ghosthad help.his scansproved you wrong.
Notice how after Spectre and Hal battled, it turned into a giant MMA fight, and Hal was powerless. Meanwhile Spectre still packed enough power to biggest contributor to the Big Bang -- as is evident froM Damage's remarks.And lets not try to pretend Batgirl, and Green Arrow, and the other street levelers are the reason Hal went powerless in that fight. It's quite clear Spectre battled him till he was powerless, and still packed MASSIVE energy.
And I gotta run to work.
Originally posted by Juntai
Notice how after Spectre and Hal battled, it turned into a giant MMA fight, and Hal was powerless. Meanwhile Spectre still packed enough power to biggest contributor to the Big Bang -- as is evident froM Damage's remarks.And lets not try to pretend Batgirl, and Green Arrow, and the other street levelers are the reason Hal went powerless in that fight. It's quite clear Spectre battled him till he was powerless, and still packed MASSIVE energy.
And I gotta run to work.
To me it looks like Hal/Parallax cleary defeats spectre in zero hour, him coming back at the end is not my idea of victory, and to be the biggest contributor to the big bang means he is able to regain his power faster...ok
I will always give fully backed spectre the respect he deserves...as in being equal to LT in certain matters, but lets admit that he is a character that is used differently than LT, and will have many low showing and misunderstood interactions....If you ask me Spectre in zero hour acted on personal feelings not on the power of a higher order
Originally posted by starlockHowever, when Spectre left, Hal was powerless. And Spectre still had enough energy to do what he did.
To me it looks like Hal/Parallax cleary defeats spectre in zero hour, him coming back at the end is not my idea of victory, and to be the biggest contributor to the big bang means he is able to regain his power faster...okI will always give fully backed spectre the respect he deserves...as in being equal to LT in certain matters, but lets admit that he is a character that is used differently than LT, and will have many low showing and misunderstood interactions....If you ask me Spectre in zero hour acted on personal feelings not on the power of a higher order
Spectre's Secret File said he defeated Parallax.
Even Hal Jordan mused the coincidence how he lost to Spectre and then later became the host himself.
On panel interpretation of the event>>
Now that I'm home and not rushing to post in three minutes, I'll answer a little more formally.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0As I said before...
Since when is the ability to use time-travel against the rules in KMC vs. battles? He could, and Hal Jordan Spectre conceded this. If classic Ion ever got into a battle with Hal Jordan Spectre and got tired of his lectures and wanted to be a jerk, he'd do exactly that and be rid of his involvement. I don't really dispute the fact that Spectre could try and stop him. But I don't see classic Ion's ability to do so as being reliant on Spectre's permission. The fact is, Hal Jordan Spectre knew Kyle was considering it and outright pleaded with Kyle to stop him from attempting it, not the other way around as you interpret it:
http://img178.imageshack.us/my.php?image=greenlanternv3150pg12aw2.jpg
http://img151.imageshack.us/my.php?image=greenlanternv3150pg13xa2.jpg
http://img178.imageshack.us/my.php?image=greenlanternv3150pg14oi9.jpg
http://img151.imageshack.us/my.php?image=greenlanternv3150pg15mp1.jpg
The point is, it's not that Kyle can't do it. It's that Hal could stop it. Time travel is not beyond him. In fact, in case you didn't notice, it was basically Hal telling Kyle not to take the route he did.
Hallax [as what you call him], tried the same thing once, using the same power source as well and was ultimately defeated and fell short as well. Hal was suggesting to Kyle not to tread the same path.
I don't even get how you were trying to suggest a conversation as a low showing. We have a word for this -- reaching.
And I never suggested Kyle needed Hal's permission to do it, but clearly to accomplish what he suggested, he would need The Spectre not to act against him, or he would fail trying to same type of thing Hal did.
This was the moment meant to seperate Kyle and Hal.
Oh really? How your pointing out that Hallax defeated Spectre at the dawn of time as aiding your position is beyond me. Especially when there was a whole band of heroes attacking Parallax while Ray, Captain Atom, Darkstar and Kyle were absorbing Parallax's energy. Meanwhile, Corrigan Spectre caused a new Big Bang by dumped extra energy into a Damage that had already had all the funneled energy that was stolen from Parallax and the fledgling universe. That escape your memory?Them absorbing the plasma energy didn't have an effect on the battle. But the point is, even an amped up Hallax[with both the central power battery, and the energy left at the dawn of time] couldn't defeat Spectre and ultimately ran out of power trying to. If you think guys like Green Lantern, Batgirl and Green Arrow caused the vast power difference the two characters with a batarang and a punch or two, I don't know what to tell you. I mean, clearly it was a cosmic energy draining batarang right? Or maybe, he was already out of power when they started punching and kicking him into submission.
http://img363.imageshack.us/my.php?image=17ka9.jpg
http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/453/zerohour017wn7.jpg
http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/4561/zerohour018gu9.jpg
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I never said the entity Parallax was above Spectre in feats or stature. I specifically said he wasn't. I only pointed out that the Spectre's wrath power is ineffective against the Parallax entity directly, as concretely demonstrated by Spectre's complete failure to burn him out and cast vengeance on him for all the years they existed as the merged Spectrehallax. I'm speaking of a hosted Spectre's limitations. I don't care if that threatens your idea of a cosmic hierarchy based on feats alone.Actually what you said was,
But neither is Spectre above Parallax.and
It's hard to figure out who's above who on either a power scale or hierarchy scalewhen this is clearly not the case.
The entities by themselves are clearly not as powerful as Spectre, or even remotely in the same class. The only reason Hallax, and ultimately ION were even up there in power was because of an outside powersource. And one that fell short at that.
It's also quite evident in their newer showings in Sinestro Corp, unless you think Kyle-ax and Sodam Yat were potential reality erasers and builders.
Originally posted by vlaaad12345Actually, Parallax stayed with Hal's soul. And the Battery was all but depleted from it's former state since he ran dry making the plasma energy, fighting Corrigan, and then had his vastly weakened form was placed into the timeline at the end of Zero Hour before Final Night ever occured to leave the energy for Kyle to get later. Oblivion as far as I recall, was just a mental manifestation from Kyle tapping into the leftovers of Hal's energy. Although I will say Kyle did seem to 'reignite' the energy when he got ahold of it.
Ion and parallax arent on the same level juntai...ion was amped by all the guardians as well+parallax+obvlion+battery energies merging he was much stronger.
Nothing ION did was above anything Parallax/Hal had shown, imo.
