Who can beat the Spectre?

Originally posted by Juntai
Actually, Parallax stayed with Hal's soul. And the Battery was all but depleted from it's former state since he ran dry making the plasma energy, fighting Corrigan, and then had his vastly weakened form was placed into the timeline at the end of Zero Hour before Final Night ever occured to leave the energy for Kyle to get later. Oblivion as far as I recall, was just a mental manifestation from Kyle tapping into the leftovers of Hal's energy. Although I will say Kyle did seem to 'reignite' the energy when he got ahold of it.

Nothing ION did was above anything Parallax/Hal had shown, imo.

Originally posted by vlaaad12345
Except be a omnipresent nigh omnipotent right hand of god according to dc themselves ion was clearly on a different level.........the energies from the battery combined with parallaxes power and oblivions creating a new much stronger energy that was made clear by the comics and kyle also had the entire guardian council minus ganthet fueling him as well....kyle as a rookie using only some of the ion power contained a big bang...he was obviously above parallax.

Parallax was still attached to Hal Jordan's soul. If you mean the POWER Parallax used in Zero Hour, that was in fact the Battery. So you'd be naming it twice. And in fact, it was merely what was left of the energy which wasn't much, since previously Hal could create a universe and died creating a star.. but as I said before it just that Kyle seemingly reignited it.

Like I said; Nothing ION did was above anything Parallax/Hal had shown, imo.

If you feel differently, cool. 🙂

Originally posted by Juntai
Slowing a big bang momentarily and creating a new reality[until he was stopped] are different levels. Which is the higher of the two? Hmmm....

Parallax was still attached to Hal Jordan's soul. If you mean the POWER Parallax used in Zero Hour, that was in fact the Battery. So you'd be naming it twice. And in fact, it was merely what was left of the energy which wasn't much, since previously Hal could create a universe and died creating a star.. but as I said before it just that Kyle seemingly reignited it.

Like I said; Nothing ION did was above anything Parallax/Hal had shown, imo.

If you feel differently, cool. 🙂

Originally posted by vlaaad12345
Having to borrow power to accomplish his goals of time manipulation or complete rape of it like ion did...hmmm 😛

Ion had complete and ease of controlling time,to accomplish his goals parallax had to use entropy and stuff,and like I said kyle contained the universal embodiment of entropy with just some of the ion power.

Originally posted by Juntai
Now that I'm home and not rushing to post in three minutes, I'll answer a little more formally.

As I said before...

The point is, it's not that Kyle can't do it. It's that Hal could stop it. Time travel is not beyond him. In fact, in case you didn't notice, it was basically Hal telling Kyle not to take the route he did.

Hallax [as what you call him], tried the same thing once, using the same power source as well and was ultimately defeated and fell short as well. Hal was suggesting to Kyle not to tread the same path.

I don't even get how you were trying to suggest a conversation as a low showing. We have a word for this -- reaching.

And I never suggested Kyle needed Hal's permission to do it, but clearly to accomplish what he suggested, he would need The Spectre not to act against him, or he would fail trying to same type of thing Hal did.

This was the moment meant to seperate Kyle and Hal.

And I never stated that this was a low showing. Ever. Not once. We have a word for this -- miscontruing.

Nevertheless, the conversation had nothing to do with Kyle asking Hal Spectre to not interfere with him. You simply assume that Hal Spectre could and would interfere from 'Zero Hour.' In the meantime, nothing in the conversation even suggested such a fear on Kyle's part that Hal Spectre would mvoe to stop him. This is made inalienably clear by the the end of the conversation where Hal Spectre concedes that the choice is Kyle's. Now if you want to argue that Hal might be able to stop him if he attempted to or wanted to, I already mentioned long ago that is arguable and reasonable. But nothing in that conversation serves as any evidence that Hal could stop him or that Kyle needed Spectre to step aside. You injected that into the conversation completely.

Next point, you seriously need to stop selectively revealing which events occurred at the conclusion of 'Zero Hour.' It makes you look like you didn't read the damn thing or you're trying to mislead people. Just to show everybody else what we're talking about so they can make their own judgments, here is exactly what happened:

1) Hallax ties the end of time with the beginning and destroys the universe: http://img468.imageshack.us/my.php?image=2ej9.jpg

2) Hallax then reforms the universe by spending his Power of the Guardians to create a plasma energy globule template from which he could reshape the universe. He would reshape the universe by utilizing the absorbed chronal energies of the original Crisis to mold it into any way he wanted. The vast knowledge needed to do so was taken from the Guardians.
http://img363.imageshack.us/my.php?image=5za7.jpg
http://img468.imageshack.us/my.php?image=8ga9.jpg
http://img363.imageshack.us/my.php?image=9km8.jpg

* Now before I go on, this is the most important point. Hallax essentially spent all his stolen Power of the Guardians in creating this plasma globule universe template. We know he spent at least most of it since it was enough to remold an ENTIRE damn universe. We also know that its from the stolen Central Power Battery because it's plasma energy (which is what manifested GL energy is), NOT chronal energy as confirmed on-panel by Waverider, "... begin absorbing the plasma energy universe Parallax has created -- before it begins to solidify!" Here:
http://img246.imageshack.us/my.php?image=16hd6.jpg

We also know that all this plasma energy is from Hallax himself because the heroes confirm it on-panel when they start absorbing the plasma energies, they said, "It's working! We're absorbing most of Parallax's energy!" So already, by this time Hallax was severely depleted of personal energies:
http://img363.imageshack.us/my.php?image=17ka9.jpg

3) After that monumental expenditure of energy, Hallax is attacked by this team of heroes who blast him with everything they have: Waverider, Superman, Captain Atom, Darkstar, and Ray. Not only does he get blindsided by Waverider's initial chronal energy blast, but he defends against everyone else's attacks and then in a huge power release, knocks them for a loop:
http://img363.imageshack.us/my.php?image=11ox9.jpg
http://img468.imageshack.us/my.php?image=12hy2.jpg
http://img363.imageshack.us/my.php?image=13ra9.jpg

4) This is finally when Corrigan Spectre comes in and begins attacking Hallax. Naturally, Hallax is blindsided again before being able to strike back at Spectre. He breaks out of Spectre's shackles and seemingly kills merged Hawkman:
http://img246.imageshack.us/my.php?image=14yr6.jpg
http://img246.imageshack.us/my.php?image=15bh1.jpg
http://img246.imageshack.us/my.php?image=16hd6.jpg

5) Finally, after trading blasts with Spectre, he defeats Spectre. How do we know Spectre's beaten? From the on-panel depiction of Spectre being blasted and his disappearance thereafter until Hallax dies. AND from Kyle's concurrent clear-as-day confirmation, "the Spectre's sacrifice has weakened you -- given us time..."
http://img363.imageshack.us/my.php?image=17ka9.jpg

6) Whereupon with Kyle's proclamation, this MMA free-for-all between Kyle, Batgirl and Ollie occurs. Of course, Hal still manages a blast aimed at Damage, but kills Batgirl instead. Finally, after Kyle wrestles him, Kyle lets us know that Hallax has indeed lost his remaining reserves of power. Finally, Spectre returns.
http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/4561/zerohour018gu9.jpg
http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/2699/zerohour019qt0.jpg
http://img250.imageshack.us/img250/4164/zerohour020cj0.jpg

So how exactly did you try to characterize this entire fight? Let's see:

Originally posted by Juntai
Them absorbing the plasma energy didn't have an effect on the battle. But the point is, even an amped up Hallax[with both the central power battery, and the energy left at the dawn of time] couldn't defeat Spectre and ultimately ran out of power trying to. If you think guys like Green Lantern, Batgirl and Green Arrow caused the vast power difference the two characters with a batarang and a punch or two, I don't know what to tell you. I mean, clearly it was a cosmic energy draining batarang right? Or maybe, he was already out of power when they started punching and kicking him into submission.

Not only did you neglect to mention that obvious fact, but you didn't even mention the all-out assault led by Waverider's team! This isn't just reaching... it's purely and utterly misleading. And a failed attempt at that. Honestly, this thread should just end here. But I'll continue in my next post and address the rest of your comments.

Originally posted by Juntai
Actually what you said was, and when this is clearly not the case.
And I think you're forgetting who ultimately DID cleanse Hal of Parallax with a simple clap of his hands.
Hal, as the catalyst for Spectre's power, merely needed a moment of clarity and asked for help and it was done in a single panel.

I can't believe you give Spectre most of the credit despite his years-long failure while dismissing the importance of Hal's courageous breaking free of fear. As Ganthet himself stated, "{Parallax}... Chose the wrong soul to corrupt."

Originally posted by Juntai
The entities by themselves are clearly not as powerful as Spectre, or even remotely in the same class. The only reason Hallax, and ultimately ION were even up there in power was because of an outside powersource. And one that fell short at that.

It's also quite evident in their newer showings in Sinestro Corp, unless you think Kyle-ax and Sodam Yat were potential reality erasers and builders.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Next point, you seriously need to stop selectively revealing which events occurred at the conclusion of 'Zero Hour.' It makes you look like you didn't read the damn thing or you're trying to mislead people. Just to show everybody else what we're talking about so they can make their own judgments, here is exactly what happened:

[b]1) Hallax ties the end of time with the beginning and destroys the universe: http://img468.imageshack.us/my.php?image=2ej9.jpg

2) Hallax then reforms the universe by spending his Power of the Guardians to create a plasma energy globule template from which he could reshape the universe. He would reshape the universe by utilizing the absorbed chronal energies of the original Crisis to mold it into any way he wanted. The vast knowledge needed to do so was taken from the Guardians.
http://img363.imageshack.us/my.php?image=5za7.jpg
http://img468.imageshack.us/my.php?image=8ga9.jpg
http://img363.imageshack.us/my.php?image=9km8.jpg

* Now before I go on, this is the most important point. Hallax essentially spent all his stolen Power of the Guardians in creating this plasma globule universe template. We know he spent at least most of it since it was enough to remold an ENTIRE damn universe. We also know that its from the stolen Central Power Battery because it's plasma energy (which is what manifested GL energy is), NOT chronal energy as confirmed on-panel by Waverider, "... begin absorbing the plasma energy universe Parallax has created -- before it begins to solidify!" Here:
http://img246.imageshack.us/my.php?image=16hd6.jpg

We also know that all this plasma energy is from Hallax himself because the heroes confirm it on-panel when they start absorbing the plasma energies, they said, "It's working! We're absorbing most of Parallax's energy!" So already, by this time Hallax was severely depleted of personal energies:
http://img363.imageshack.us/my.php?image=17ka9.jpg

3) After that monumental expenditure of energy, Hallax is attacked by this team of heroes who blast him with everything they have: Waverider, Superman, Captain Atom, Darkstar, and Ray. Not only does he get blindsided by Waverider's initial chronal energy blast, but he defends against everyone else's attacks and then in a huge power release, knocks them for a loop:
http://img363.imageshack.us/my.php?image=11ox9.jpg
http://img468.imageshack.us/my.php?image=12hy2.jpg
http://img363.imageshack.us/my.php?image=13ra9.jpg

4) This is finally when Corrigan Spectre comes in and begins attacking Hallax. Naturally, Hallax is blindsided again before being able to strike back at Spectre. He breaks out of Spectre's shackles and seemingly kills merged Hawkman:
http://img246.imageshack.us/my.php?image=14yr6.jpg
http://img246.imageshack.us/my.php?image=15bh1.jpg
http://img246.imageshack.us/my.php?image=16hd6.jpg

5) Finally, after trading blasts with Spectre, he defeats Spectre. How do we know Spectre's beaten? From the on-panel depiction of Spectre being blasted and his disappearance thereafter until Hallax dies. AND from Kyle's concurrent clear-as-day confirmation, "the Spectre's sacrifice has weakened you -- given us time..."
http://img363.imageshack.us/my.php?image=17ka9.jpg

6) Whereupon with Kyle's proclamation, this MMA free-for-all between Kyle, Batgirl and Ollie occurs. Of course, Hal still manages a blast aimed at Damage, but kills Batgirl instead. Finally, after Kyle wrestles him, Kyle lets us know that Hallax has indeed lost his remaining reserves of power. Finally, Spectre returns.
http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/4561/zerohour018gu9.jpg
http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/2699/zerohour019qt0.jpg
http://img250.imageshack.us/img250/4164/zerohour020cj0.jpg

So how exactly did you try to characterize this entire fight? Let's see:Wow. You thought Hallax was STILL amped up by the Central Power Batteries AND the chronal energies? Even AFTER he looped the end and beginning of time AND recreated an ENTIRE plasma energy globule universe? Just. Wow. No wonder you think Hallax is pathetic for running out of energy. You COMPLETELY disregarded the fact that he spent most if not nearly all his energies recreating the damn universe! How did you miss that fact?!

Not only did you neglect to mention that obvious fact, but you didn't even mention the all-out assault led by Waverider's team! This isn't just reaching... it's purely and utterly misleading. And a failed attempt at that. Honestly, this thread should just end here. But I'll continue in my next post and address the rest of your comments. [/B]

Scans always make it clear for anyone reading this who is in the right and who is miscontruing things and it isnt you. Great job.

One can't take one story in DC and think you can make a fair accurate judgement of how power lvls work. There are too many times when combat situations are used to push the story. With DC, you must look at feats and the entire history of the characters before making any reasonable judgement.

Originally posted by fangirl101
One can't take one story in DC and think you can make a fair accurate judgement of how power lvls work. There are too many times when combat situations are used to push the story. With DC, you must look at feats and the entire history of the characters before making any reasonable judgement.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Onedumbgo was correct in his interpretations of events while the other poster was giving Spectre way too much credit.

Well to be honest, it was the spectre's power that allowed the defeat of the AM. and The AM would beat the living crap out of parrallax. ergo, The spectre is more powerful than parallax.

Originally posted by fangirl101
Well to be honest, it was the spectre's power that allowed the defeat of the AM. and The AM would beat the living crap out of parrallax. ergo, The spectre is more powerful than parallax.

Spectre needed help to defeat Parallax and to defeat Am. He didnt beat either on his own. From this it leads me to believe they are more powerful than the Spectre.

Originally posted by fangirl101
One can't take one story in DC and think you can make a fair accurate judgement of how power lvls work. There are too many times when combat situations are used to push the story. With DC, you must look at feats and the entire history of the characters before making any reasonable judgement.

And to be honest, I don't even really want to get into an interpretation over 'Crisis on Infinite Earths' right now.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Not true and thats abc logic which you just said in another thread would not pass go.

Spectre needed help to defeat Parallax and to defeat Am. He didnt beat either on his own. From this it leads me to believe they are more powerful than the Spectre.

Nah. It was outright stated that the spectre had the power to defeat the AM. but that wasn't his job. you remember when the LT couldn't kill Korvak? AM>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Korvak. does that mean the LT is far weaker than the spectre becuz he couldnt' kill Korvak with his "ultimate" judgement?

Originally posted by fangirl101
Nah. It was outright stated that the spectre had the power to defeat the AM. but that wasn't his job. you remember when the LT couldn't kill Korvak? AM>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Korvak. does that mean the LT is far weaker than the spectre becuz he couldnt' kill Korvak with his "ultimate" judgement?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Lt didnt engage Korvac while the Spectre engaged Am while being amped by other mages and sorcerers and still came up short. Again your logic fails. Spectre needs a huge amp to be able to even weaken Am. 🙂

Huge amp? you dont' know much about the spectre do you? do you not know that the spectre could call upon the other infinite spectre's from all time lines and pretty much own anyone? or that he could tap into the logoz( which in some circles is known as the word of God itself) and pwn pretty much anyone. the spectre actually stood up to the arc angle at the gates of heaven no less. and micheal even calls him formitable. now who else would the living power of God call formitable?

Thanks Onedumbgo, it was worth to make this thread if only to learn what you posted.

I feel that the Spectre/LT thing is often taken too literally, when we talk about the Spectre the first question must always be "who is the host?", the host is important, Hal had Pharallax when he was the host and that made it relevant to the Spectre.

Originally posted by Bentley
Thanks Onedumbgo, it was worth to make this thread if only to learn what you posted.

I feel that the Spectre/LT thing is often taken too literally, when we talk about the Spectre the first question must always be "who is the host?", the host is important, Hal had Pharallax when he was the host and that made it relevant to the Spectre.

Originally posted by fangirl101
Huge amp? you dont' know much about the spectre do you? do you not know that the spectre could call upon the other infinite spectre's from all time lines and pretty much own anyone? or that he could tap into the logoz( which in some circles is known as the word of God itself) and pwn pretty much anyone. the spectre actually stood up to the arc angle at the gates of heaven no less. and micheal even calls him formitable. now who else would the living power of God call formitable?

I just read the dov special and he didnt even beat Nabu on his own. Nabu wanted him to kill him so the tenth age could begin. You cant credit Spectre with killing Nabu on his own as Nabu went there to goad the Spectre into killing him so his rampage would end. 😬