Exile vs Revan

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
I actually just looked up the word 'Prodigal' on the spell check and apparantly it means:wasteful, reckless, dissolute, profligate, extravagant, uncontrolled, cautious.
Which just confuses me, mabye its an oversight.

Notice that it doesn't say 'now in possession of all his memories', only the memories that the jedi masters had erased. And seeing as how Bastila said that revan was already in a bad way before the mind wipe and that she had already suffered sever damage, its not a huge stretch to suggest that Revan most of the memories herself and The Jedi masters simply helped that along. And anyway that quote completely contridicts the game in that Bastila says that revans memories are dead and that if you had recalled all the memories then you would have got much, much better that the relatively untrained status that Revan then possessed.

'Shrugs' It doesn't really matter as it was just a theory and so is not fact/canon.

1: Make me &
2: How does that have any relavance whatsoever.

it wasn't a contradiction, I was merely asking where it said that revan had greater Mastery than Caedus.

A: You can't sneak past them, trust me I've tried. They're even positioned next too doors so you have to stop sneaking next to them.
B: Revan also had to talk Bastila into giving up and anyway you still need to kill him a couple of times. In fact, if you keep killing him then he just realises that he's no match for you and dies anyway.
C: Her very philosophy was survival of the fittist, She was a Sith so didn't believe in mercy and Its very hard to still go easy on someone when they cut off your hand, trust me. It would have gone against her 'ideals' to go easy on the Exile.

Revan's knowledge of Sith magics and the like would be high priority to wipe from his mind.

Unless she'd ( I won't change that) already lost those memories.

She was a Padawan-turned-Sith Apprentice attempting to turn Revan to her side, of course she'd try to pull at his strings and make him lose faith in ever truly knowing who he was and force him to become what everyone said he was.

i'm pretty sure thatshe only says iy after you've already joined the Sith.

A theory based on knowledge of Revan's tactics, victories, and her peoples' affinity for Battle Precognition.

Which is still pure speculation on her part and in no way is a fact.

1: Internetz say hi.
2: ??? is irrelevant.

1: I'm confused
2: ??? is an offer too explain & a statement of my confussion.

You basically agreed with the statement, then made a 90* turn on it.

No, first of all I told you that only pre-mindwipe revan had that knowledge then I asked where it was stated that Revan has a higher level of mastery than Caedus. Which you still havn't elaborated on.

A: Since this has a touch to do with gameplay, prestige class and stealth skill level?

'Shrugs' My computer broke two yrs ago and I don't know much but I spent the whole game as the middle class, Sith, turned into an assassin and I'm pretty sure that I always leveled up my stealth. But I remember that I kept trying to sneak past this sithload of sith and got the crap killed out of me every time.

B: Comparison has a problem, Bastila's a headstrong Sith Apprentice whose ambition served as a catalyst for her trying to kill Revan repeatedly and got wounded in the process;

She was also insane from the weeks of torture and was in love with Revan. Her willpower probably wasn't that high.

C: Kreia was never a hardcore Sith, fact. Kreia is a heretic to both Jedi and Sith, fact. And the concept of Kreia believing in no mercy to the Exile, the person she's been protective of like a mother bear until the end, and even aids on her death bed strikes me as odd.

Well I still think that considering that she actually lectures you about the evils of mercy throughout the game, that Sith really aren't that merciful and that She actually tells you that she won't go easy on you, that she wouldn't.

But I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree

Which I don't.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Unless she'd ( I won't change that) already lost those memories.

i'm pretty sure thatshe only says iy after you've already joined the Sith.

Which is still pure speculation on her part and in no way is a fact.

1: I'm confused
2: ??? is an offer too explain & a statement of my confussion.

No, first of all I told you that only pre-mindwipe revan had that knowledge then I asked where it was stated that Revan has a higher level of mastery than Caedus. Which you still havn't elaborated on.

'Shrugs' My computer broke two yrs ago and I don't know much but I spent the whole game as the middle class, Sith, turned into an assassin and I'm pretty sure that I always leveled up my stealth. But I remember that I kept trying to sneak past this sithload of sith and got the crap killed out of me every time.

She was also insane from the weeks of torture and was in love with Revan. Her willpower probably wasn't that high.

Well I still think that considering that she actually lectures you about the evils of mercy throughout the game, that Sith really aren't that merciful and that She actually tells you that she won't go easy on you, that she wouldn't.

But I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree

Which I don't. [/B][/QUOTE]

And stating his power was "tremendous", like that doesn't describe just about every celebrated dark jedi/sith? Of course I wouldn't note it, it's an unquantifiable description. Unless a canon source claims he was more powerful than so-so, then feats are all that count. A good example is Ragnos. He has no feats but we know he was stronger than Sadow and Kressh because he was their overlord and they feared his power, even when he was on his death bed.

And this how the argument ALWAYS goes, I post facts, you say: "I don't SEEZ IT". I want you to use something called LOGICAL DEDUCTION, we don't need to be spoon fed the fact that Revan was pretty 1337 by some book saying well you know that Revan guy was stronger then so and so Sith, its pointless, when we have people like Ajunta Pall (A Sith Alchemy Master, and someone who has slain more then a dozen Jedi in personal combat) saying things about Revan's pure power like this:

"So much power...it is blinding."

"You human, who bristle with power."

"The force is so strong with you human..."

Emphasis mine.

Every time Revan meets anther force user in KOTOR its usually followed by "OMG u is strong in da force!" But please tell what "celebrated" Jedi/Sith who had a connection thats described by an narrator as tremendous, only getting stronger then, stronger then that. Tell me what puts the Exile on that level...oh thats right you can't and your not going to address this properly, your going to go "Well dey be equal cauze I seem em as equals" well newsflash bucko, no one gives a shit about what you "think", prove up or shut the f*ck up. Not to mention that a few thousand years later he's mentioned in the same breath as Naga Sadow (whom they attribute blowing up stars directly too).

Wasn't the Exile in turn described as the "death of the force"? That seems to be like ying & yang, two equal but opposing forces. Not nearly enough info on Revan to prove that he's a better combatant than the Exile - given the simple fact that their combat feats are clearly at the same level.

But was the Exiles little comment preceded by "You are power"? No. And again what you are so desperately failing to grasp is Force Connection > Skill, we've seen it time and time again that those who are strong in the force butcher those whom have decades of experience:

Luke v Vader ROTJ

Cade v Talon, Nihl, and Krayt

Zahnna(as a child) v two random Jedi Knights

Ulic v Null

Ulic v Ommin

Revan(as a n00b padawan) v Juhani a Jedi Knight being boosted by the DS

Katarn v The Seven Dark Jedi

Jaden Korr v Tavion being amped by Ragnos

And thats relatively new, Jedi/Sith if they have any type of skill + force connection the outcome is more like

Maul v Anoon

Bane v Rastaka, Joun, Farfalla

Bane v Kas'im

Vastor v Mace

Starkiller v All the Jedi he pwns

Yoda v Sidious

Anakin v Dooku

Luke v Lumiya

Caedus v Katarn and 3 other Jedi

You get the picture, and moreover, I have no reason (since you've not provided any) for to believe that the Exile is on any stage Revans equal.

As far Revan's knowledge is concerned we've never seen it put into practice. Malak who was Revan's apprentice, showed force lightning and force choke.

Your starting to annoy me, severly. Yes Malak displayed typical offensive force manuvers, what you fail to mention is he also had the froce drain ability that he used on the Jedi in stasis. His second honorary apprentice Darth Bane, learned how to tramp out the deadliest poisons, learned the thought bomb, learned the force storm that he displays in JvS. Also thats only what he dared to use, he himself admitted that some of the powers Revan held he wouldn't even attempt.

Your argument of "We don't know how much it augmented Revans power" is pure fail, because we have the entire Star Wars as an example that proves you wrong:

- The Ancients themselves who apperently weren't that strong in the force aside from Ragnos, all of there toys brought them to demi god like status in the force.

- Aleema and Satal Keto go from spoiled weak brats playing with the force too Jedi killer, galactic threats with a simple Sith Spell book.

- Kun moves from talented padawan to most powerful being in the galaxy, with the help of Sadows notes, little instruction from Naad an amulet, and some raided knowledge of the Temple on Ossus.

- Bane goes from talented neophyte to strongest Sith in the galaxy with the help of Revans holocron

- Sion goes from nobody Sith to galactic threat with the help of Malachor

- Celeste Morne: Jedi Shadow to taking on Darth Vader

- Hett: Jedi Knight to Galactic Emperor Sith Lord with the help of a few holocrons

These are just off the top of my head, Star Wars is ripe with many more examples. And Revan has more then all those (save for the ancients) combined, not to mention knowledge of the Jedi, and other cultures. So really Revan would be the ONLY exception to the rule of someone who WASN'T empowered by the Sith teachings, are you really, logically, going to assert that?

There's nothing to suggest that Revan used exotic techniques in combat that would absolutely confound the Exile, that just comes off as wishful thinking.

You don't seem to get the point I'm stressing - Revan, whom is in the leauge of those like Kar Vastor and Yoda, DOESN'T NEED his exotic esoteric force powers to beat the Exile when a simple use of TK or a push would be enough, and even if she managed to get into a lightsaber fight Revan has logically:

-Jedi knowledge: Its stated that he had an insatiable appietie for all information including combat.

-Has the highest form of Battle Precognition

-Massacred dozens of Sith in the Academy, single handidly (he HAVES to do this theres no way around it, and its confirmed in KOTOR2)

-Has all that Sith knowledge which only has one real purpose: to kill, or make one stronger in the force

-Has destroyed the leaders of two warbound cultures (The Echani and Mandalorian) in single combat

Please tell me as I've asked you and anyone else more then 5 times now to prove HOW EXACTLY THE EXILE STANDS A CHANCE AGAINST REVAN, here maybe if I bold it and make it super big you'll see it:

HOW CAN THE EXILE BEAT REVAN, HOW ARE THEY EQUAL

To Darth Dipshit

Notice that it doesn't say 'now in possession of all his memories', only the memories that the jedi masters had erased. And seeing as how Bastila said that revan was already in a bad way before the mind wipe and that she had already suffered sever damage, its not a huge stretch to suggest that Revan most of the memories herself and The Jedi masters simply helped that along. And anyway that quote completely contridicts the game in that Bastila says that revans memories are dead and that if you had recalled all the memories then you would have got much, much better that the relatively untrained status that Revan then possessed.

From what I could gather out of that mess of text (Proof Reading is ur friend!) your plainly: WRONG. The Jedi Masters sealed Revans memories of his entire past life, not just whatever ramblings you said. And its great that Bastila knows whats going on inside Revans mind...oh wait, she doesn't. Who cares what Bastila says, by your "logic" KOTOR2 is also wrong as it states by Bastila no less that "Revans memories can flooding back."

it wasn't a contradiction, I was merely asking where it said that revan had greater Mastery than Caedus.

Hey doofus read the topic

trayas opinions do not = Fact.

Um when it comes to her padawan, and given the fact that she's the best source of information regarding Revan, her opinion in that case hold a very real relevance.

She also said that the Exile was 'The greatest person [Traya] have ever trained'. So I guess that puts The Exile ahead of revan, huh?

"Greatest" is subjective ass clown, please tell, what exactly she was the greatest at? The force? Combat? Being spoon fed Kreia's lessons? Eating Traya's puss? We know its automatically not power since Nihlius was you know a shit times stronger then Exile.

Being a prodigy doesn't automatically put you above another powerful individual. Mabye you should try taking your own advice.

Maybe, just maybe you should read the rest of my post.

revan's not going to be able to think the Exile dead.

Actually, he can.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_force

Read it.

War Stragegy has no overall influence on close-combat.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_Precognition

Read it.

I'd also like too bring up the fact that the Exile beat Revan on Korriban, I wonder if that has any reference, considering that it was most likely based off the abilities of Darth Revan.

No, son, no. Some ghost =/= Revan.

Not to mention Kreia wanted the force to die and saw the possibility of it happening through the Exile. Again, Revan>Exile. This has been debated time and time and and somehow people maintain their ignorance.

lol, that's just whack. What they were probably meaning was that Revan was a prodigy, which isn't all too surprising.

I love these threads both parties turn to hyperbole, insubstantial statements and subjective remarks form npc's to make an argument. It all comes down to one definitive thing: combat feats, and they are on the same level there.

No, they aren't Allankles. I hate to break it to you but combat feats are only 1 issue when deciding the victor between two characters. You also have to put those combat feats into relevant circumstances, as well as force mastery and knowledge. Revan beats out the Exile in every department other than being a wound in the force.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx

Every time Revan meets anther force user in KOTOR its usually followed by "OMG u is strong in da force!" But please tell what "celebrated" Jedi/Sith who had a connection thats described by an narrator as tremendous, only getting stronger then, stronger then that.

Tell me what puts the Exile on that level...oh thats right you can't and your not going to address this properly, your going to go "Well dey be equal cauze I seem em as equals"

Wow?! So a few Npc comments about his force talents and that proves his the better fighter? Then why is it you haven't taken into consideration what the Jedi Masters said about the Exile, about her growing more powerful with the people she surrounded herself with and killed?

Why is it when there's an example of how the Exile is able to match Revan, you willfully ignore that info? And not every NPC in Kotor 1 acknowledged Revan's talent (that's an exaggeration) a few did, some weren't all too impressed and attacked him regardless. Doesn't really have any real substantial significance when assessing both characters. You don't get regarded as uber just by a few meaningless compliments.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
But was the Exiles little comment preceded by "You are power"? No. And again what you are so desperately failing to grasp is Force Connection > Skill, we've seen it time and time again that those who are strong in the force butcher those whom have decades of experience:

Power? How does that even imply anything, given that the Exile was metaphorically described in a manner that signifies an equal but opposing force? Are we going to ignore that it was a her strong connection to the force that her allowed her to become stronger in the first place? Her ability to form strong bonds with the life around her gave her a strong connection to the force. The Exile herself admits that she can feel the force more strongly than she ever did before.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Your starting to annoy me, severly. Yes Malak displayed typical offensive force manuvers, what you fail to mention is he also had the froce drain ability that he used on the Jedi in stasis. His second honorary apprentice Darth Bane, learned how to tramp out the deadliest poisons, learned the thought bomb, learned the force storm that he displays in JvS.

We don't even know how that force draining thing worked, because the way it worked in gameplay doesn't imply that it worked the same in the actual canon. Also note that Malak never canonically uses force drain in any offensive way. As far as Bane goes. Why are you attributing Bane's feats to Revan?

Bane himself was powerful force user possessed with enough talent in the force to accomplish those feats. He isn't Revan, nor should we assume that Revan was exactly the same nor capable of the same. This my irritation with you Revan fans, your guy has no actual feats attributed to his person that put him above the Exile therefore you turn to making baseless assumptions without restraint.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Your argument of "We don't know how much it augmented Revans power" is pure fail, because we have the entire Star Wars as an example that proves you wrong:

Look above, you have no actual info regarding Revan's combat abilities outside of his accomplishments (he's above Malak and was the best of his era as of Kotor 1). Anything beyond that and it's really clutching at straws. I like facts, I like honesty, if information arises depicting Revan accomplishing something in the force that puts him above the Kotor 1 feats and the Exile's feats, I'll concede.

All we have now is a neophyte Bane stating he wouldn't want to try some of the techniques on Revan's holocrons (what are they? and why wouldn't he try them?) and some subjective, unquantifiable and ultimately meaningless quotes with regards to his combat level. Stating his Kar Vastor's/Yoda level is pure conjecture, unsupported by any kind of evidence.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
No, they aren't Allankles. I hate to break it to you but combat feats are only 1 issue when deciding the victor between two characters. You also have to put those combat feats into relevant circumstances, as well as force mastery and knowledge. Revan beats out the Exile in every department other than being a wound in the force.

I've tried to make you understand my perspective better.

Here's basically what I'm saying: Revan is very powerful and as I'm not one to indulge in hyperbole or unsupported compliments and quotes, I live my remarks on his force abilities at that. I then try to discover if there's any evidence (whatsoever) that puts Revan's combat abilities above the Exile based on his force abilities.

And quite frankly there's no evidence on how this force ability would manifest itself in a fight with the Exile or whether it would actually give Revan the edge over the Exile.

I've already taken into consideration their respective talents/abilities and the conclusion I draw is that the Exile has fought characters that were as powerful or more powerful in the force, and not knowing how these fights go down canonically, my conclusion is that I can't know whether Revan's largely unknown level of power gives him the edge.

So I see it being 50/50, if I had more info I would have a better anD more clear idea.

Originally posted by Allankles
I've tried to make you understand my perspective better.

Here's basically what I'm saying: Revan is very powerful and as I'm not one to indulge in hyperbole or unsupported compliments and quotes, I live my remarks on his force abilities at that. I then try to discover if there's any evidence (whatsoever) that puts Revan's combat abilities above the Exile based on his force abilities.

And quite frankly there's no evidence on how this force ability would manifest itself in a fight with the Exile or whether it would actually give Revan the edge over the Exile.

I've already taken into consideration their respective talents/abilities and the conclusion I draw is that the Exile has fought characters that were as powerful or more powerful in the force, and not knowing how these fights go down canonically, my conclusion is that I can't know whether Revan's largely unknown level of power gives him the edge.

So I see it being 50/50, if I had more info I would have a better anD more clear idea.

Explain what definitive talent the Exile has that would be relevant in combat? Revan had the combined knowledge of Malachor V and Korriban, the Exile was a wound with nothing else really going for her. Hell if you want the fight to be a little more even, put Malak in there although it would be the same result. You just need to realize that the Exile is nothing special.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Explain what definitive talent the Exile has that would be relevant in combat? Revan had the combined knowledge of Malachor V and Korriban, the Exile was a wound with nothing else really going for her. Hell if you want the fight to be a little more even, put Malak in there although it would be the same result. You just need to realize that the Exile is nothing special.

What do you mean by nothing special? And what about what she accomplished combat wise suggests that? Because I'm not going to explain anything if I don't know what page you're on.

None of her accomplishments put her near Revan. Nihilus? Any one from your party could have defeated him. Sion? Talked him to death? Kreia? Nothing suggests she was going all out. Anything else?

Exactly thats what I've been asking this ass clown the whole time and he just dodges the question.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
None of her accomplishments put her near Revan. Nihilus? Any one from your party could have defeated him. Sion? Talked him to death? Kreia? Nothing suggests she was going all out. Anything else?

Any from my party could have defeated him? Conveniently forgetting that the outcome of that fight was dependent on whether the Exile was strong enough to face Nihilus? Or are forgetting that the confrontation with Nihilus was determined by whether or not the Exile was ready to face him?

Again, you have to assume that the Exile isn't the overpowering factor behind Nihilus death for that argument to stick.

Talking Sion to death? Are you kidding? That's not even an argument, I won't bother to give such a poor attempt at making a point the benefit of a counter argument. Suffice to say, I get the picture of a rabid fanboy when I read such statements, and will wisely steer clear of certain arguments.

Kreia, nothing suggests she was going all out? Care to provide a quote in their duel that would suggest such a thing? I mean I remember her clearly stating that She would kill the Exile or be killed. I remember her trying to kill the Exile and forcing the fight even when the Exile is reluctant to kill her. I mean, nothing in the fight suggests anything but a duel to the finish between Master and Apprentice. If there's anything that suggests different provide the evidence.

The confrontation between nihilus and the exile was NOT based on whether she was strong enough or ready to face him. The Exile could defeat nihilus because he COULDN'T force drain her because she was a wound in the force, and after he attempted that he became very weak.

watch and see for yourself

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpO__IJra4o&feature=related

Now, tell us how the Exile would beat Revan, cause as I said, all those are weaker then Revan, now how does she beat Revan what makes her equal to him combative wise considering Revans got a higher force mastery then Caedus, whom is stronger then Vader, please tell. And if your going to offer some dispute, add proof tool.

Hey man calm down, it's not like Allankles is Noobaris. He just doesn't understand.

also on wookieepedia on both the exiles page and nihilus's page it states that nihilus was destroyed by mandalore, visas, and the exile.

nihilus's page says this

"The Exile, whose tie to the Force had been severed, being basically of the same nature as himself, could not be consumed by Nihilus, so when he tried, he exhausted himself and was made vulnerable. They engaged in a brutal fight, which nearly destroyed Visas, yet when the Exile figured his weakness the battle turned. Visas entered a trance and tried to disrupt the link with her former Master, undermining his connection to the Force, then the three of them managed to defeat Darth Nihilus and escape the vessel's destruction."

the exile's page says this

"the Exile participated in the Battle of Telos IV and faced Darth Nihilus aboard the Ravager to keep him from destroying Telos, which he was doing to fuel his hunger for the Force. With the assistance of Visas Marr and Mandalore with his Mandalorians, the Exile defeated him and headed to Malachor V."

so consider the exiles supposed "feat" of defeating nihilus completely shot down.

Hey man calm down, it's not like Allankles is Noobaris. He just doesn't understand.

The hipocrisy is strong with you.notworthy

Explain what definitive talent the Exile has that would be relevant in combat?

Explain what definitive talent Revan has that would be relevant in combat? Sith Rituals? Force Bonding? What?

Revan had the combined knowledge of Malachor V and Korriban,

It's funny how that 'combined knowledge' didn't help Sion, Nihilus or Traya when the Exile pwned their ass's. Or the legions of Sith she butchered.

How about this:

Revan (only) feats:

Took down Juhani
Took down 2 taruantereks
Beat Malak at least twice
Beat Bastila multiple times then talked her round
Took out the Korriban temple, possibly with help
Knew alot of Sith Rituals.
Killed alot of non-force sensitives with lightning
Was a fantastic stratigist
possibly had battle precognition

Exile (only) feats:

Took down Visas
Took out alot of those storm beasts including that giant one.
Took out the Korriban test, including ghosts of 6 jedi, mandalorians, party members and Revan as well as actual monsters.
Beat Traya twice as well as those tricky lightsabers
Beat Sion multiple times then talked him round.
Took out the Malachor temple without help
Killed alot of mercenaries without help
Knew alot of unhelpful techniques
Was a great stratigist
possibly had battle precognition (I don't know if you learn it or if you always had it)

Frankly I beginning to think that a draw is pushing it. But I still say draw.