Originally posted by leonheartmm
^as predicted.
As typical, instead of replying with something that substantiates a claim you've made, you avoid.
So, what about those facts & proof? I'll even accept a logical conclusion.
Edit: Here, I'm predicting that your next response won't be anything that substantiates your claims.
Originally posted by leonheartmm
^but it is rather surprising when the reply contains very exactly, what the initial post predicted it would contain. i dint have a problem with people replying. its their right, and yet, sum replies contain actual content and others dont, and it is also my right to call it out.
Big fan of rights, aren't you? What about the right people have to have sex on camera, and for the consumer's right to buy it? To outlaw the production and sales of pornography would be to actively push aside personal freedoms.
Originally posted by leonheartmm
^but it is rather surprising when the reply contains very exactly, what the initial post predicted it would contain. i dint have a problem with people replying. its their right, and yet, sum replies contain actual content and others dont, and it is also my right to call it out.
You posted factless rants and then said "someone will say that I'm wrong", nice.
Look, I can do it too:
"The moon is made of cheese, as fact. I bet if someone disagress with my claim and responds, they'll say that my fact, isn't fact."
Good show Leo, good show.
Originally posted by chillmeistergen
Big fan of rights, aren't you? What about the right people have to have sex on camera, and for the consumer's right to buy it? To outlaw the production and sales of pornography would be to actively push aside personal freedoms.
WHICH proves that you have no idea what ur saying and havent read the entire debate in context.
i have NO PROBLEM with people having sex on camera if they like. i have NO problem with people watching it if the actors who make it wish to put it up for others to see. i DO however have a problem with SELLING your self away into a deal. i f you wanna do it out of personal desire than well and good. but you dont SIGN your body away for money.
take a parallel which hopefully will make my point clearer. women can get married to men right. if they want to. no1 shud have a problem with it. yet i do think ever1 here WILL have a problem with the custom of dowry where men indirectly PAY OFF the family and the women before legally taking them into marriage. see this is where the problem starts, for pleasure or otherwise{as is mostly the case even if rob might not wanna accept it} when you let others BUY AWAY the rights to your body etc, THEN there is a bid problem. the thing is, people here in pakistan/india etc, who DO favour the practice of dowry, also make arguments very similar to robtard{i.e. its the women;s CHOICE if she wants to accept money for marriage and her family wants to accept gifts and money for their daughter;s marriage etc etc etc}. twisting the exploitive practice around into sumthing FAVOURING liberty and personal choice.
Originally posted by Robtard
Which claim would you like me to substantiate? Porn stars are not being forced and can walk off a set? Or?
When you say forced, I don't think Leo means physically forced (though this can be the case) but rather they have to do the work due to their living conditions i.e. just need the money. I imagine that in this type of business there will obviously be people who are forced to work with a threat of violence but perhaps more often this type of prostitution is a last resort for people who are at rock bottom.
Don't you think?
Originally posted by leonheartmm
WHICH proves that you have no idea what ur saying and havent read the entire debate in context.i have NO PROBLEM with people having sex on camera if they like. i have NO problem with people watching it if the actors who make it wish to put it up for others to see. i DO however have a problem with SELLING your self away into a deal. i f you wanna do it out of personal desire than well and good. but you dont SIGN your body away for money.
take a parallel which hopefully will make my point clearer. women can get married to men right. if they want to. no1 shud have a problem with it. yet i do think ever1 here WILL have a problem with the custom of dowry where men indirectly PAY OFF the family and the women before legally taking them into marriage. see this is where the problem starts, for pleasure or otherwise{as is mostly the case even if rob might not wanna accept it} when you let others BUY AWAY the rights to your body etc, THEN there is a bid problem. the thing is, people here in pakistan/india etc, who DO favour the practice of dowry, also make arguments very similar to robtard{i.e. its the women;s CHOICE if she wants to accept money for marriage and her family wants to accept gifts and money for their daughter;s marriage etc etc etc}. twisting the exploitive practice around into sumthing FAVOURING liberty and personal choice.
Please type properly, it's horrible to read your posts and does nothing for your point.
As for the point about freedoms, you'd still be limiting their personal freedom by saying they can't sell it and the consumer's who want to buy it. Same with dowry marriages, if a woman is making her own choice, who cares? If she's being forced into it, yes that's a problem, but a cultural one and by no means an issue that should be raised in a pornography debate. Shall I start blabbering about honour killings and beat you to the post?
Your points just don't make any kind of logical sense.
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
When you say forced, I don't think Leo means physically forced (though this can be the case) but rather they have to do the work due to their living conditions i.e. just need the money. I imagine that in this type of business there will obviously be people who are forced to work with a threat of violence but perhaps more often this type of prostitution is a last resort for people who are at rock bottom.Don't you think?
Carry on imagining, until you can prove it.
Edit: misread, thought it applied to all.
Anyway, that goes for practically any industry.
^ yes, exactly. but onfortunately rob has proven in the past that HIS definition of CHOICE doesnt depend on anything leading UPTO the point where one path is to be chosen of multiple. but as long as more than one path exists{despite the consequences} there is a choice{even if the alternative is too scary for most people to take i.e. suicide due to extreme pain and psychological disease etc is still a CHOICE for him}.
infact forced choice to me is no choice, and that is what happens with a lot of people who enter the industry and they have no other way to economically provide for themselves.
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
When you say forced, I don't think Leo means physically forced (though this can be the case) but rather they have to do the work due to their living conditions i.e. just need the money. I imagine that in this type of business there will obviously be people who are forced to work with a threat of violence but perhaps more often this type of prostitution is a last resort for people who are at rock bottom.Don't you think?
I'm certain there are people who are in porn because it's the easiest way (sex) to make money because of their "living conditions", but it is idiotic to take a stance that this is the norm. That is also besides the point that they can leave if they wanted to and it is a wilful choice.
Don't you think labelling an entire industry and every worker under one blanket generalization of "it's bad to people(women) and none of them enjoy it or want to do it" as being an idiotic and unfounded move?
Edit: One of many blanket claims he's made.
Originally posted by leonheartmm
what is the connection between sex and pornography being drawn here? the former is a natural, often wonderful natural urge which is healthy. the later is an exploitive, disgusting, sexist, manipulative business which takes advantage of people in often the worst situations and is far removed from any actual SEX for pleasure and pumping out extremely unnatural immages of the human body etc etc, among its MANY shortcomings{unless it is hentai or sumthing which doesnt involve actual humans}. i am pretty much anti pornsex entertainment based in organisations or pimps/or the sex INDUSTRY/BUSINESSS etc earning money, but pretty much pro sex.
Originally posted by leonheartmm
^ yes, exactly. but onfortunately rob has proven in the past that HIS definition of CHOICE doesnt depend on anything leading UPTO the point where one path is to be chosen of multiple. but as long as more than one path exists{despite the consequences} there is a choice{even if the alternative is too scary for most people to take i.e. suicide due to extreme pain and psychological disease etc is still a CHOICE for him}.infact forced choice to me is no choice, and that is what happens with a lot of people who enter the industry and they have no other way to economically provide for themselves.
I believe in Courts of Law- if you have been given a "choice" i.e. commit this crime or I will kill your daughter...you would get off with diminished capacity- as it is not a choice.
Originally posted by Robtard
I'm certain there are people who are in porn because it's the easiest way (sex) to make money because of their "living conditions", but it is idiotic to take a stance that this is the norm. That is also besides the point that they can leave if they wanted to and it is a wilful choice.Don't you think labelling an entire industry and every worker under one blanket generalization of "it's bad to people(women) and none of them enjoy it or want to do it" as being an idiotic and unfounded move?
Where in my post did I label it as the norm? Or are you saying that generally and not in reference to what I said?
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Your arguments are feeble, leon. They come down to this:A: Porn is exploitative and bad for women!
B: No it isn't
A: Well, the porn that is exploitative and bad for women is...
It is POSSIBLE for porn to have its exploitative side. But that's the same of many industries- manual and factory labour was WAY more exploitation problems than porn does.
You try and sweep aside the entirity of the legitimate porn industry but instead making comments and attacks on its underground side. Obviously the side of porn that is done underground with exploitative/illegal content is bnad, but that's simply a given, has nothing to do with mainstream porn, and would exist anyway. The fact that such underground stuff exists in absolutely no way or form impinges upon tyhe fact that mainstream porn is legitimate and consists of workers whol chose a job being paid a market rate for it. Whether they enjoy that or not is as irrelevant as whether any office worker or manual labourer enjoys their work- it's a job, that's the point. They chose to be there, they want to be there, they are surviving by being there in a legitimate business.
Don't insult my intelligence by ridiculous comparisons either. Torture is clearly wrong and illegal with good reason; consensual sex is not. Prostitution is in fact legal (if you want to give someone money for whatever reason you lik,e that's your business); it tends to br solicitation that is illegal and that is a public order issue (i.e. some object to haveing prossies on the streets). That being the case, it is the organisation of prostitution that is an underground/illegal activity and THAT is why prostitution is exploitative. No similar situation exists in porn. No-one is exploiting these people, generally. They have all the same rights as you or I do in the work place
Talk to the average porn worker and you won;t find someone wo says they are ruthlessly exploited and their life ruined, you will ust find someone who does a job, moans about their life in general and bitches about some of their idiotic co-workers- kinda like ANY job, really. Some people happen to be very good at it and arepaid well; you would seek, presumably, to deny them that opportunity.
Genuine exploitation in porn should be stamped out. But then a bunch of immigrant cockle pickers drowned on the beach in the UK a coiple of years ago due to exploitation by their gangmasters. That should be stopped too, but that would be a stupid reason to be against all manual labour. Saying that the illegal/underground side of professions is wrong is a no brainer. Using their existence to attack the industry in general simply shows no brains.
There is only one problem here and that is that porn workers tend to get looked down upon. This is an unreasonable view from people spewing outdated Victorian nonsense aboutn them having sold out or lost their respect etc, a view that makes no sense at all in these modern times and says more about those disapproving thasn those being disapproved of. So I'd be careful where you step there, leon- it could be the only problem is those with views like yourself.
Everything Leo has said was debunked here.
Let us just bask in the excellence that is Leo, for he is never wrong.
Originally posted by leonheartmminfact forced choice to me is no choice, and that is what happens with a lot of people who enter the industry and they have no other way to economically provide for themselves.
FFS Leo, you already tried this retard claim in the 'Suicide Thread'.
It is a choice, sometimes it's the better choice, but a choice no less.
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Where in my post did I label it as the norm? Or are you saying that generally and not in reference to what I said?
What is your point then, that there are porn people out there that are being exploited? Sure, I am sure there are, just as in any industry.
What's that have to do with the blanket generalizations Leo has been making?