Originally posted by Robtard
You never sneek a peek at some porn starlet taking cock in either the pink, stink or both, not even for old-times sake?
Not a starlet, unless it's by mistake. I don't seek out porn stars be them mae or female. But yeah, I will occasionally catch some straight porn. But, it's never for old times sake, as there is no such thing as "old times" when it comes to my sexual proclivity. There is nothing worth clinging to when it comes to my first sexual experiences. Chicks just didn't do it for me then, much less do they now.
Originally posted by Robtard
Actually, porn actors can call for breaks and they can walk off a shoot, sure they may/won't get paid for it, but no one is forcing them to stay against their will. Similar in how a factory worker, accountant, teacher etc. etc. etc. can leave their job if he/she is displeased. Again, this is just another unfounded blanket claim of yours.Oh, where are those "basic human rights" being denied you spoke of? Can you not name even one?
again, READ what i have written, it pertains specially to peoples perception of the public face of porn in america.
i have specifically explained what i mean by the basic human rights, re read if you dont understand.
Your arguments are feeble, leon. They come down to this:
A: Porn is exploitative and bad for women!
B: No it isn't
A: Well, the porn that is exploitative and bad for women is...
It is POSSIBLE for porn to have its exploitative side. But that's the same of many industries- manual and factory labour was WAY more exploitation problems than porn does.
You try and sweep aside the entirity of the legitimate porn industry but instead making comments and attacks on its underground side. Obviously the side of porn that is done underground with exploitative/illegal content is bnad, but that's simply a given, has nothing to do with mainstream porn, and would exist anyway. The fact that such underground stuff exists in absolutely no way or form impinges upon tyhe fact that mainstream porn is legitimate and consists of workers whol chose a job being paid a market rate for it. Whether they enjoy that or not is as irrelevant as whether any office worker or manual labourer enjoys their work- it's a job, that's the point. They chose to be there, they want to be there, they are surviving by being there in a legitimate business.
Don't insult my intelligence by ridiculous comparisons either. Torture is clearly wrong and illegal with good reason; consensual sex is not. Prostitution is in fact legal (if you want to give someone money for whatever reason you lik,e that's your business); it tends to br solicitation that is illegal and that is a public order issue (i.e. some object to haveing prossies on the streets). That being the case, it is the organisation of prostitution that is an underground/illegal activity and THAT is why prostitution is exploitative. No similar situation exists in porn. No-one is exploiting these people, generally. They have all the same rights as you or I do in the work place
Talk to the average porn worker and you won;t find someone wo says they are ruthlessly exploited and their life ruined, you will ust find someone who does a job, moans about their life in general and bitches about some of their idiotic co-workers- kinda like ANY job, really. Some people happen to be very good at it and arepaid well; you would seek, presumably, to deny them that opportunity.
Genuine exploitation in porn should be stamped out. But then a bunch of immigrant cockle pickers drowned on the beach in the UK a coiple of years ago due to exploitation by their gangmasters. That should be stopped too, but that would be a stupid reason to be against all manual labour. Saying that the illegal/underground side of professions is wrong is a no brainer. Using their existence to attack the industry in general simply shows no brains.
There is only one problem here and that is that porn workers tend to get looked down upon. This is an unreasonable view from people spewing outdated Victorian nonsense aboutn them having sold out or lost their respect etc, a view that makes no sense at all in these modern times and says more about those disapproving thasn those being disapproved of. So I'd be careful where you step there, leon- it could be the only problem is those with views like yourself.
The idea that working in the porn industry is humiliating, forces a victim status on women who don’ t want it and who aren’ t asking for it. It is moral distaste that causes many people to claim that women, working in the porn industry, are demeaned or forced into it. It is easier for them to accept a woman’ s choice if they believe that she didn’ t actually make a choice at all, that she was somehow forced into it by by single motherhood, childhood abuse, …
For many, it is difficult to accept that a woman would willingly choose to sell sex.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Your arguments are feeble, leon. They come down to this:A: Porn is exploitative and bad for women!
B: No it isn't
A: Well, the porn that is exploitative and bad for women is...
It is POSSIBLE for porn to have its exploitative side. But that's the same of many industries- manual and factory labour was WAY more exploitation problems than porn does.
You try and sweep aside the entirity of the legitimate porn industry but instead making comments and attacks on its underground side. Obviously the side of porn that is done underground with exploitative/illegal content is bnad, but that's simply a given, has nothing to do with mainstream porn, and would exist anyway. The fact that such underground stuff exists in absolutely no way or form impinges upon tyhe fact that mainstream porn is legitimate and consists of workers whol chose a job being paid a market rate for it. Whether they enjoy that or not is as irrelevant as whether any office worker or manual labourer enjoys their work- it's a job, that's the point. They chose to be there, they want to be there, they are surviving by being there in a legitimate business.
Don't insult my intelligence by ridiculous comparisons either. Torture is clearly wrong and illegal with good reason; consensual sex is not. Prostitution is in fact legal (if you want to give someone money for whatever reason you lik,e that's your business); it tends to br solicitation that is illegal and that is a public order issue (i.e. some object to haveing prossies on the streets). That being the case, it is the organisation of prostitution that is an underground/illegal activity and THAT is why prostitution is exploitative. No similar situation exists in porn. No-one is exploiting these people, generally. They have all the same rights as you or I do in the work place
Talk to the average porn worker and you won;t find someone wo says they are ruthlessly exploited and their life ruined, you will ust find someone who does a job, moans about their life in general and bitches about some of their idiotic co-workers- kinda like ANY job, really. Some people happen to be very good at it and arepaid well; you would seek, presumably, to deny them that opportunity.
Genuine exploitation in porn should be stamped out. But then a bunch of immigrant cockle pickers drowned on the beach in the UK a coiple of years ago due to exploitation by their gangmasters. That should be stopped too, but that would be a stupid reason to be against all manual labour. Saying that the illegal/underground side of professions is wrong is a no brainer. Using their existence to attack the industry in general simply shows no brains.
There is only one problem here and that is that porn workers tend to get looked down upon. This is an unreasonable view from people spewing outdated Victorian nonsense aboutn them having sold out or lost their respect etc, a view that makes no sense at all in these modern times and says more about those disapproving thasn those being disapproved of. So I'd be careful where you step there, leon- it could be the only problem is those with views like yourself.
i will only say a few things.
1. i do not look down upon sex workers or porn stars, unless they are bitchy. i simply think they are making the wrong decision and selling off rather precious things, which can be GIVEN as they see fit but not SOLD.
the parallel to torture is severe, but very appropriate. it is covered by all the arguments you are making FOR pornography and all the arguments i am making AGAINST it. saying one is OBVIOUSLY wrong while the other isnt is extremely illogical and tells me that your reasons for supporting porn are more aesthetic and less intellectual/logical. tell me, why is the situation with torture different in the parallels that i am drawing and how isnt IT covered by the free choice etc arguments that you and robtard are making, you will certainly have a hard time doing it.
You really can't see the difference between torture and consensual sex, seriously?
As I pointed out, S&M could be compared to torture, and you're fine with that, as long as money isn't being exchanged. Totally ridiculous. Just as you're fine with a woman engaging in orgies, or having many multiple sex partners; just as long as she isn't paid. Completely retarded thought that is.
Face it, your arguments are baseless, ill-founded and totally based on your bias that you personally find porn disgusting, despite watching it, which is just odd.
I seriously don't see a problem with someone being willingly tortured anyway. Presumably that's what you're on about, leon? If I want to be tortured for money, why should you have the right to stop me? Why should you have a say in how I earn my money, if it's not hurting anyone else but me (under my own will), what's the problem?
Originally posted by leonheartmm
i will only say a few things.1. i do not look down upon sex workers or porn stars, unless they are bitchy. i simply think they are making the wrong decision and selling off rather precious things, which can be GIVEN as they see fit but not SOLD.
the parallel to torture is severe, but very appropriate. it is covered by all the arguments you are making FOR pornography and all the arguments i am making AGAINST it. saying one is OBVIOUSLY wrong while the other isnt is extremely illogical and tells me that your reasons for supporting porn are more aesthetic and less intellectual/logical. tell me, why is the situation with torture different in the parallels that i am drawing and how isnt IT covered by the free choice etc arguments that you and robtard are making, you will certainly have a hard time doing it.
Okay, really, why can't they be sold and only given? Because you say so? Who are you to dictate what someone else can willingly do or not do?
Originally posted by leonheartmm
not all workers. but most workers.
How could you possibly prove that most porn actors/actresses are in a poor economic situation?
Originally posted by leonheartmm99% was obviously blown up to try to make a point, that women in pornography are NOT their for the pleasure. do you really think every women is multi orgasimic and can cum about a hundred times a day and love it with multiple different men shoot after shoot on demand?
Now you are assuming that men only do it for pleasure. That is a sexist assumption.
Have you ever heard of "Superhead" aka Karen Steffans? She willing put herself out to have sex with lots of hip hop artists and then wrote a book about it "exposing" loads on their personal life, etc. She says in the book (which I have read part of) that she is doing for money. If she wants to just do it for money, then that is her decision.
It doesn't even matter if circumstance "forced" her into it. That is an issue to discuss among sociologists and to rally around and tell people to talk about classism. Regardless, that is her decision. You should deal with the root of the problem rather than focus on the effect.
And no one thinks all women all "multi orgasmic" but most PEOPLE are not that way. I'm all for supporting women and trying to gain some equal ground on issues that need to be discussed, but damn you come off like the same scum you suggest men are in this case.
Originally posted by Robtard
You really can't see the difference between torture and consensual sex, seriously?As I pointed out, S&M could be compared to torture, and you're fine with that, as long as money isn't being exchanged. Totally ridiculous. Just as you're fine with a woman engaging in orgies, or having many multiple sex partners; just as long as she isn't paid. Completely retarded thought that is.
Face it, your arguments are baseless, ill-founded and totally based on your bias that you personally find porn disgusting, despite watching it, which is just odd.
i can, but i was merely bringing it up to explain to you that if we take YOUR personal argument for porn, than xtreme torture is also fairgame, unless you wanna come up with different arguments for porn. POINT being, that there are aspects of porn you are willfully ignorant about and only seeing certain aspects of it, which CAN be used to justify torture too. SnM isnt the same as extreme torture. also, either answer my questions or dont speak at all, you havent categorically rebutted any of the arguments ive gven, its always, OH THIS IS SO STUPID, YOU REALLY BELEIVE THIS, YOU ARE SO STUPID, HERE I WILL RETYPE EVERYTHING YOU ALREADY DEALT WITH.
my arguments arent based on my bias, there are quite a few other things i wud personally find distastefull, yet dont argue about them as they have no logical basis to them other than my personal choice. this ISNT one of them. i HAVE watched porn, but dont make a habit of it, just as i HAVE watched crappy popcon flicks and dont make a habit of it. and yet i have sumthing negetive to say about both.
Originally posted by Peach
Okay, really, why can't they be sold and only given? Because you say so? Who are you to dictate what someone else can willingly do or not do?
please look at the context i said that in, and also see that it was a reply to a sumthing else and not a blanket statement in itself.
Originally posted by chithappens
How could you possibly prove that most porn actors/actresses are in a poor economic situation?Now you are assuming that men only do it for pleasure. That is a sexist assumption.
Have you ever heard of "Superhead" aka Karen Steffans? She willing put herself out to have sex with lots of hip hop artists and then wrote a book about it "exposing" loads on their personal life, etc. She says in the book (which I have read part of) that she is doing for money. If she wants to just do it for money, then that is her decision.
It doesn't even matter if circumstance "forced" her into it. That is an issue to discuss among sociologists and to rally around and tell people to talk about classism. Regardless, that is her decision. You should deal with the root of the problem rather than focus on the effect.
And no one thinks all women all "multi orgasmic" but most PEOPLE are not that way. I'm all for supporting women and trying to gain some equal ground on issues that need to be discussed, but damn you come off like the same scum you suggest men are in this case.
right right, my bad, most pornstars have always had being in the porn business as theu DREAM career, how idiotic of me.
also, you jumped from{women are mistreated etc} to {men are not mistreated} i didnt mean to say that, read my previous posts and the line of argumentation. i was merely referring to directors etc telling em ot do it. and it ws dealing with older points of porn for pleasure etc. please just read what i wrote in the entire argument, ull understand what im trying to say. it isnt at all what your perceiving it to be here.
Originally posted by leonheartmm
i can, but i was merely bringing it up to explain to you that if we take YOUR personal argument for porn, than xtreme torture is also fairgame, unless you wanna come up with different arguments for porn. POINT being, that there are aspects of porn you are willfully ignorant about and only seeing certain aspects of it, which CAN be used to justify torture too. SnM isnt the same as extreme torture. also, either answer my questions or dont speak at all, you havent categorically rebutted any of the arguments ive gven, its always, OH THIS IS SO STUPID, YOU REALLY BELEIVE THIS, YOU ARE SO STUPID, HERE I WILL RETYPE EVERYTHING YOU ALREADY DEALT WITH.my arguments arent based on my bias, there are quite a few other things i wud personally find distastefull, yet dont argue about them as they have no logical basis to them other than my personal choice. this ISNT one of them. i HAVE watched porn, but dont make a habit of it, just as i HAVE watched crappy popcon flicks and dont make a habit of it. and yet i have sumthing negetive to say about both.
FFS... We've all rebutted every single illogical point you've made point for point. You simply refuse to see that you're making blanket claims without any proof.
"Porn actors are desperate victims"
"Porn women can't walk off a shoot, they're trapped"
"No one really wants to be a porn actor"
"99% of the women don't enjoy the porn sex"
"Porn actors are being denied basic human rights"
"Women shouldn't engage in orgies, unless they're not being paid, then it's fine"
Those are only a few of the generalizations you've tried to pass off as fact, despite not having a shred of proof that anything you claim is a norm.