Premutos, regardless of whether or not you like Rhino, the appropriate way to debate isn't to decide who you want to win, then only focus on those arguments that seem to favor him. It's not about who "wins" the argument, but determining who would actually win by rationally acknowledging both sides. I and others have conceded that Spidey would need a lot of time to put down Rhino, and that Rhino could take a few. We're not irrationally throwing ourselves toward Spidey just because we favor him in this fight. It's that sort of mindlessly competitive debating that is the bane of legitimately constructive discussion.
Also, Spidey punching Rhino and not knocking him out means nothing. Of course a few punches wouldn't KO him. He has put him down, though I realize you like posting only individual panels that support your argument (not even pages, but just 1-2 panels). Second, bringing up Electro fights in a thread that has nothing to do with him...doesn't really count for anything toward Rhino. Maybe you're right and Spidey only wins via PIS (also untrue), but even if you're right, it's about Electro, not Rhino.
Originally posted by PremutosWait, are you telling me that Spidey should be treated or is supposed to be in the Class 100 range? 😕 If so he'd be seen trading punches with the likes of classic Hulk, Thing, Colossus, Juggernaut, etc and I don't think I've ever seen such a thing happens. If in some comics he appears performing Class 100 or 50 feats this is more likely a f*uck-up from some writers that never cared to do the math. Now, in Rhino's case, he's [B]supposed
to have insane durability and strenght, otherwise what would be the point of this character in the 1st place? [/B]
What? Do you know the point I was trying to make? My point is that you were using Rhino's high end durability feats and Spidey's non high strength feats to show that Spidey can't hurt Rhino. I was merely pointing out the double standard. In no way am I arguing that Spidey should be stronger than class 10.
It is a fact that a weaker being can hurt a stronger being. Based off Spidey's history Rhino is no more than 4x stronger than Spidey.
Originally posted by Premutos
Ok but I wonder what would have happened in case the grown-up dude decided to fight back 😄Yep, just like Rhino could start tossing cars arond and putting innocent bystanders at risk just to distract Spidey's attention.
Actually it was Digi who said that if something happens numerous times then it ceases being PIS, I was just following his logic but I don't quite agree with that. Anyways, it's been stablished since his 1st appearance that Rhino SHOULD be able to hit Spidey:
Otherwise what would be the point of creating a villain like that?
PIS has something to do with statistics as well as logic (not to be mistaken for science). Many think PIS only just deals with statistics alone.
That fact that SM has SS says that he never should get hit. Doesn't matter if he got hit 999/1000 times. This is logic. Also using statistics, the ratio that Spidey has dodged super fast attacks to getting hit is greater than 10:1. So both logic and statistics point out that Rhino shouldn't hit Spidey.
Originally posted by BUSTER1
unfortunately I can't get the scans to work-but they're from the
'Brand New Spiderman Respect Thread' and show Spidey beating Rhino unconscious, even though he is in a weakened state
You mean this one?
Man, that makes as much sense as Captain America KO-ing the Hulk. The day Spidey starts beating up people in the 85 class range DIFFERENT THAN RHINO or other jobbers alike and on a regular basis I'll take that one as valid proof but meanwhile as far as I'm concerned that's PIS of the worst kind.
It's not the character's fault that Marvel has decided long ago and for some unknown reason that him, Mr. Hyde, the Wrecking Crew, Absorbing Man, Whirlwind, Graviton etc deserve no respect and must be treated as jobbers in any occasion, despite their power levels and stats and regardless of if it makes sense or not. Don't take lazy writing as proof of anything.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
Premutos, regardless of whether or not you like Rhino, the appropriate way to debate isn't to decide who you want to win, then only focus on those arguments that seem to favor him. It's not about who "wins" the argument, but determining who would actually win by rationally acknowledging both sides. I and others have conceded that Spidey would need a lot of time to put down Rhino, and that Rhino could take a few. We're not irrationally throwing ourselves toward Spidey just because we favor him in this fight. It's that sort of mindlessly competitive debating that is the bane of legitimately constructive discussion.
And you think that I'm irrationally throwing myself toward Rhino or that I don't sincerely believe that he'd win? Even when I was a kid and saw superheroes beating up far superior opponents in comics (just like it happens with Spidey and Rhino) I used to think to myself "BOLLOCKS! This is pretty much like the Roadrunner show, where Wile E. Coyote always loses simply cause he's not allowed to win". And know what? Nowadays, 20+ years later, I still think this kinda stuff is bollocks.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
Also, Spidey punching Rhino and not knocking him out means nothing. Of course a few punches wouldn't KO him. He has put him down, though I realize you like posting only individual panels that support your argument (not even pages, but just 1-2 panels).
Well, I used to be on a 56K connection when I uploaded most of my scans and ImageShack worked funny for me when trying to upload images larger than 200 or 300k. As for bringing up Electro I was trying to prove that Spidey indeed does have a Jobber Aura (and which superhero doesn't?), which is easier to demonstrate using that example.
Originally posted by Premutos
You mean this one?Man, that makes as much sense as Captain America KO-ing the Hulk. The day Spidey starts beating up people in the 85 class range DIFFERENT THAN RHINO or other jobbers alike and on a regular basis I'll take that one as valid proof but meanwhile as far as I'm concerned that's PIS of the worst kind.
It's not the character's fault that Marvel has decided long ago and for some unknown reason that him, Mr. Hyde, the Wrecking Crew, Absorbing Man, Whirlwind, Graviton etc deserve no respect and must be treated as jobbers in any occasion, despite their power levels and stats and regardless of if it makes sense or not. Don't take lazy writing as proof of anything.
That is very different to Cap knocking out Hulk. Cap is peak human listed as being able to lift 800 lbs -Hulk is class 100. Cap was shown to knock out Hulk with about 3 punches. Also this was shown to be a memory of a grieving Spiderman (upset over his idol Cap's death) so it probably wasn't wholly accurate.
Spiderman is stronnger than Cap 25x as he is 10ton strength. And he was hitting Rhino multiple times. As tough as Rhino is he isn't really in the Hulk's league, and doesn't have the Hulk's healing factor. So the cumulative effect of rapid fire punches from someone weaker than him will affect him in a way it wouldn't affect Hulk.
Originally posted by h1a8
What? Do you know the point I was trying to make?
Yes, I know the point you were trying to make: To dimiss Rhino's high-end showings as PIS based on the fact that Spidey has some high-end showings that don't make any sense to begin with. The difference is that Rhino shows insane strenght and durability ON A REGULAR BASIS whereas Spidey has only had a few (if any) class 50 or 100 feats in his 40+ years of history.
Originally posted by h1a8
Based off Spidey's history Rhino is no more than 4x stronger than Spidey.
Before being told on this thread that Spidey is now Class 10 I used to believe that he was still Class 25, so if you wanna consider that Rhino is no more than 4x stronger than him that's ok to me.
Originally posted by h1a8
Also using statistics, the ratio that Spidey has dodged super fast attacks to getting hit is greater than 10:1. So both logic and statistics point out that Rhino shouldn't hit Spidey.
Statistics based of feats like Spidey dodging attacks at lightspeed from Cyclops and stuff? That's bollocks too, in comics Spidey dodges a ton of attacks he shouldn't be able to.
Originally posted by BUSTER1
That is very different to Cap knocking out Hulk. Cap is peak human listed as being able to lift 800 lbs -Hulk is class 100. Cap was shown to knock out Hulk with about 3 punches. Also this was shown to be a memory of a grieving Spiderman (upset over his idol Cap's death) so it probably wasn't wholly accurate.
Spiderman is stronnger than Cap 25x as he is 10ton strength. And he was hitting Rhino multiple times. As tough as Rhino is he isn't really in the Hulk's league, and doesn't have the Hulk's healing factor. So the cumulative effect of rapid fire punches from someone weaker than him will affect him in a way it wouldn't affect Hulk.
Ok, if you want me to admit that Cap KO-ing Hulk makes EVEN LESS SENSE it's all right. But I still wanna see proof of Spidey beating up guys in the 80+ class range in H2H combat, and I mean more or less respected characters (ala Colossus, Thing, classic Hulk, Juggernaut, etc) and not the usual jobbers. Oh, and on a regular basis.
Hulk has had a coupla power-ups in these years and I concede that Rhino ain't in his league anymore. But then again, who is? Apparently Hulk now can make short work of guys like Dr. Strange and Sentry so I think current Hulk is probably on a league of his own. 😕
Originally posted by BUSTER1
What does Spidey dodge, that he shouldn't be able to?
Ufff, lotsa things! I've seen Spidey dodging stuff launched at him at lightspeed or at the speed of thought and Spidey's body simply doesn't move that fast, no matter if his Spider-sense warns him or not.
Originally posted by Premutos
Ok, if you want me to admit that Cap KO-ing Hulk makes EVEN LESS SENSE it's all right. But I still wanna see proof of Spidey beating up guys in the 80+ class range in H2H combat, and I mean more or less respected characters (ala Colossus, Thing, classic Hulk, Juggernaut, etc) and not the usual jobbers. Oh, and on a regular basis.Hulk has had a coupla power-ups in these years and I concede that Rhino ain't in his league anymore. But then again, who is? Apparently Hulk now can make short work of guys like Dr. Strange and Sentry so I think current Hulk is probably on a league of his own. 😕
Ufff, lotsa things! I've seen Spidey dodging stuff launched at him at lightspeed or at the speed of thought and Spidey's body simply doesn't move that fast, no matter if his Spider-sense warns him or not.
Rhino isn't really in Classic Savage Hulk's league. HUlk's ability to get stronger with anger means he quickly reaches a level that is too high for Rhino to be a real threat-BUT for the purpose of the stories where Rhino fights Hulk he is shown to give Hulk a good fight.
As for the others you mentioned, Juggernaut is way out of Rhino's league, as he is on par strength wise with an enraged Hulk and completely invulnerable to physical attack (in a correctly written story even WWH shouyldn't be able to hurt him) Colossus and Thing are heroes who Spiderman hasn't had reason to go all out maximum Spider on and they're both stronger and more durable than Mr.O'Hirn
And who are you to say how quick Spiderman's body can move.
Originally posted by PremutosNo! That is not the point I'm trying to make. What I'm saying is that Spidey can indeed hurt Rhino. This is because if we take his high end durability feats as valid then we have to take Spidey's high end strength feats as valid too. Only fair. And Rhino doesn't ever show insane strength and durability on a regular basis. What are you smoking? Do you know what insane strength and durability in comics is? It's certainly nothing Rhino has ever done. Rhino has never shown strength over 100tons and never has shown more durability than Thing, Colossus, Namor, or any class 100 being period. Spidey and other weaker than Rhino beings hurt Rhino ON A REGULAR BASIS. CA hurt him by hitting him in the face. Remember?
Yes, I know the point you were trying to make: To dimiss Rhino's high-end showings as PIS based on the fact that Spidey has some high-end showings that don't make any sense to begin with. The difference is that Rhino shows insane strenght and durability ON A REGULAR BASIS whereas Spidey has only had a few (if any) class 50 or 100 feats in his 40+ years of history.
The bios say classic Spidey is class 10 but many here don't go on bios alone but on panel evidence. And on panel evidence says that classic Spidey is class 25 on average (class 10 at weakest and class 90-100 at strongest).
Before being told on this thread that Spidey is now Class 10 I used to believe that he was still Class 25, so if you wanna consider that Rhino is no more than 4x stronger than him that's ok to me.
He has SS silly. It tells him to dodge before the attack is launch. Thus he can potentially dodge anything that's not mega in area.
Statistics based of feats like Spidey dodging attacks at lightspeed from Cyclops and stuff? That's bollocks too, in comics Spidey dodges a ton of attacks he shouldn't be able to.
Originally posted by BUSTER1
Rhino isn't really in Classic Savage Hulk's league. HUlk's ability to get stronger with anger means he quickly reaches a level that is too high for Rhino to be a real threat-BUT for the purpose of the stories where Rhino fights Hulk he is shown to give Hulk a good fight.
As for the others you mentioned, Juggernaut is way out of Rhino's league, as he is on par strength wise with an enraged Hulk and completely invulnerable to physical attack (in a correctly written story even WWH shouyldn't be able to hurt him) Colossus and Thing are heroes who Spiderman hasn't had reason to go all out maximum Spider on and they're both stronger and more durable than Mr.O'Hirn
So to make a long story short, no proof of Spidey beating up dudes in the 80+ ton range and H2H if they're not well-known jobbers, hmm? BTW, Rhino has fought all these guys except Colossus (oh well, and Juggernaut was sorta depowered when he fought him, truth be told). What about the 70+ ton range? Ares, Blob, Doc Samson, etc?
Originally posted by BUSTER1
And who are you to say how quick Spiderman's body can move.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I never expected Spidey to be on a level with the Flash. Has Spidey gained insane superspeed somehow and no one told me?
Originally posted by Premutos
So to make a long story short, no proof of Spidey beating up dudes in the 80+ ton range and H2H if they're not well-known jobbers, hmm? BTW, Rhino has fought all these guys except Colossus (oh well, and Juggernaut was sorta depowered when he fought him, truth be told). What about the 70+ ton range? Ares, Blob, Doc Samson, etc?What are you not getting. When he fought Rhino he went all out. He never did against Colossus or Thing. When Rhino gave Hulk etc.. a run for their money it was a very high showing for him. One thing that Spiderman has over Rhino is intelligence. Rhino is basically an idiot. The Thing, who is similar level strength wise (but more durable ) is more formidable than Rhino, as he is a lot more intelligent. Due to being thick Rhino doesn't try to alter his strategy against Spidey and so leaves himself open to the maximum spider attack
Maybe I'm wrong, but I never expected Spidey to be on a level with the Flash. Has Spidey gained insane superspeed somehow and no one told me?
Scans please
Like I said