I can see Obi-Wan's Soresu holding out against Revan. And pairing Anakin's aggression and strength against Malak's brute force could certainly result in Anakin overcoming him. The duo could then finish off Revan.
But you bring the Force into this then I'm tempted to say the pendulum swings the other way.
we have 2 possible match ups here.
1) anakin takes on revan and obi wan takes on malak
2) anakin takes on malak and obi wan takes on revan
IN scenario 1, since djem so didnt exist in revan's time he would have to take time to adjust to it, time which he wont have because anakin is so overwhelmingly strong and will back him down.
meanwhile obi wan's soresu which is capable of standing against anakin will definitely hold against malak's variation of makashi, hey obi wan might even defeat malak without anakin's help, either way, anakin will be available to help obi wan. so the rots jedi tool the kotor jedi.
In scenario 2 anakin has the same advantage in terms of an unknown stlye and given the way malak holds his saber and uses it, malak appears to be a makashi user, in which case this would be an abbreviated version of the rots dooku-anakin fight.
meanwhile revan might give obi wan some trouble because revan is better than malak, and anakin will be able to help even faster since he is leaps and bounds above the kotor jedi.
all in all the rots team curbstomps
Right then.
We have Malak- who was stated somewhere (Dark Side Sourcebook?) to be a proficient lightsaber duelist; however, once again, you have Revan, who was never once stated to be an incredibly good lightsaber duelist- for all we know, he could've been someone who just used the the force to overcome his opponents. There's no proof of him being good with a lightsaber.
Meanwhile, you have Anakin and Obi-Wan, both known to be incredibly talented lightsaber duelists; Anakin was considered to be one of the greatest duelists of his time, to the point that he could defeat Dooku- once again, a being whose lightsaber skill seems to trump the shit out of both Malak's and Revan's. And then you have Obi-Wan, who could block 20 strikes per second, allowing him to completely outclass General Grievous, who was able to curbstomp numerous Jedi at once; clearly, there's plenty of evidence pointing towards Anakin and Obi-Wan being hugely skilled lightsaber duelists.
Until there is more evidence of Malak's and Revan's lightsaber prowess, I'm going to have to say that Obi-Wan and Anakin should win, no matter the matchup.
Revan and Malak.
They both smash Anakin and Obi-Wan in developed Force power, which has generally been the real determining factor when it comes to lightsaber combat throughout the EU (and what Yoda and Kas'im, arguably the two most experienced lightsaber users within the entire mythos, considered to be the case), and they were both considered lightsaber prodigies within their order, and had the war experience to hone that level of talent. While I won't deny Anakin or Obi-Wan's lightsaber prowess, at the end of the day, neither of them was a Kas'im or Ulic Quel-Droma; by Obi-Wan's own admission, he was only truly proficient with Soresu, and it's likely that the same was the case with Anakin and his proficiency of Djem So (at least as far we know). They were both obviously extremely good with their single form of combat, but that's still just a single form of combat; neither were well mastered with multiple forms (such as Kas'im, Darth Maul, Mace Windu, Sora Bulq, Depa Billaba or [insert any other Form 7 Master]), neither ever displayed a truly extraordinary grasp of the lightsaber (such as Ulic's display in Redemption, or Kyle Katarn's or Nomi's masterful displays before they'd received any real training with the weapon, or Mace Windu and Exar Kun's ingenuity in creating/furthering a lightsaber form, or Bane's learning ability as displayed when he was able to perfectly memorise millions of moves and combinations in little over a year), and neither have received mad amounts of experience and/or training like others have before or after them (examples: Vodo Siosk-Bass, and Yoda). The fact of the matter is that while extremely well versed in lightsaber combat, they weren't exactly what you'd call Lightsaber Gods, and given both Revan and Malak's prodigy statuses as well as their extreme war experience (and by extension, honed skills), I truly don't see how the margin would be anything other than narrow.
Revan and Malak, due to smashing the Jedi duo in what is logically the real determining factor, and logically at least being able to compete in the other real category that matters: lightsaber technique, win this hands down.
Originally posted by HomoSuperior
Revan and Malak.They both smash Anakin and Obi-Wan in developed Force power, which has generally been the real determining factor when it comes to lightsaber combat throughout the EU (and what Yoda and Kas'im, arguably the two most experienced lightsaber users within the entire mythos, considered to be the case), and they were both considered lightsaber prodigies within their order, and had the war experience to hone that level of talent. While I won't deny Anakin or Obi-Wan's lightsaber prowess, at the end of the day, neither of them was a Kas'im or Ulic Quel-Droma; by Obi-Wan's own admission, he was only truly proficient with Soresu, and it's likely that the same was the case with Anakin and his proficiency of Djem So (at least as far we know). They were both obviously extremely good with their single form of combat, but that's still just a single form of combat; neither were well mastered with multiple forms (such as Kas'im, Darth Maul, Mace Windu, Sora Bulq, Depa Billaba or [insert any other Form 7 Master]), neither ever displayed a truly extraordinary grasp of the lightsaber (such as Ulic's display in Redemption, or Kyle Katarn's or Nomi's masterful displays before they'd received any real training with the weapon, or Mace Windu and Exar Kun's ingenuity in creating/furthering a lightsaber form, or Bane's learning ability as displayed when he was able to perfectly memorise millions of moves and combinations in little over a year), and neither have received mad amounts of experience and/or training like others have before or after them (examples: Vodo Siosk-Bass, and Yoda). The fact of the matter is that while extremely well versed in lightsaber combat, they weren't exactly what you'd call Lightsaber Gods, and given both Revan and Malak's prodigy statuses as well as their extreme war experience (and by extension, honed skills), I truly don't see how the margin would be anything other than narrow.
Revan and Malak, due to smashing the Jedi duo in what is logically the real determining factor, and logically at least being able to compete in the other real category that matters: lightsaber technique, win this hands down.
Your blatant hatred for anything PT aside, how the HELL could you assume that Anakin and Obi-Wan didn't have a 'truly extraordinary grasp of the lightsaber'?
While I could certainly understand Revan and Malak being above Obi-Wan in terms of their force ability and attunement, but above ANAKIN SKYWALKER? I'll give you an example when 'raw power' triumphs over developed force power; Bane vs. Kas'im, for example- when Bane, despite being far, far below Kas'im in terms of refinement, mastery, and combat knowledge, was capable of temporarily gaining the upper hand due to his vastly superior attunement to the force. The same would apply to Anakin, only on an even greater basis- aside from your logic of "Malak and Revan were war veterans ergo they have better developed force power!", nothing points to Malak (Revan is displayed to be rather knowledgable and masterful) being particularly high up in the 'developed force power' scale, while Anakin had the highest raw power in history. This came into play when during his fight with Dooku, when he achieved his "In teh zone" state of mind, he was capable of smashing Dooku, someone who certainly had an extremely large amount of time to refine himself in his form of choice and was also proven to have knowledge of all 7 forms, to pieces through his raw power, strength, and aggression alone- throughout the entire fight, he only gained energy, becoming what you might call a 'force wrecking ball'. In terms of force attunement? Anakin absolutely curbstomps Revan and Malak. And his technical knowledge, displayed by him, once again, being- by Dooku's own admission- the best Djem So user he had ever seen in his considerable time as a Lightsaber Instructor at the Jedi Temple.
With Obi-Wan, you might have more of a case, but the fact of the matter is that Obi-Wan was, too, capable of absolutely shocking Dooku with his prowess in Soresu- in the RotS novel, he is depicted multiple times to become 'one with the force', and to let it completely control him to the point that it might have been the lightsaber doing the whole work, guided entirely by the force- clearly, the way he uses the force in lightsaber combat is more than formidable, and he is certainly not lacking in that aspect.
Obi-Wan's 'own admission' stems from him having a rather low opinion of his skills and having extreme modesty; you also have the fact that in TPM, he used Ataru to a degree sufficient to hold his own against Darth friggin' Maul. He was also capable of completely duping Dooku, despite Obi-Wan's reputation, into thinking that he used Shii-Cho and Ataru. He has knowledge of more than one form- and his skill with Soresu is sufficient to make Mace Windu- a master of all seven forms, and a normally stern person who doesn't give compliments acknowledge his prowess with Soresu that he actually implied that he sees Obi-Wan as a greater swordsman than himself. Obi-Wan was also capable of contending with 20 strikes per second from Grievous, who could WTFpwn several Jedi at once.
As for 'war experience'? Obi-Wan was older than both Revan and Malak, and participated in numerous large-scale conflicts, including being one of the most famous participants of the Clone Wars, as was Anakin.
I don't have time to get to all of that right now, so I'll just explain what I meant by my comment on their lightsaber technique. You can reply if you wish, or you can wait until I get to the rest, I'm going to allow you the luxury of choice.
Now, as I was saying, while their technique is pretty impressive, when you compare them to the likes of beings who have mastered multiple lightsaber forms (Kas'im, and all the Form VII Masters, off the top of my head), have displayed insane learning rates with the weapon (Darth Bane, and Sirak, who apparently learnt the different moves and sequences faster than any of the other apprentices, including Bane), have wielded the weapon with the skill of a Master the very first time they picked it up (Nomi Sunrider), have been able to compete with powerful and well trained Force Users in lightsaber combat with no training with the weapon whatsoever (Kyle Katarn), were able to create or further lightsaber forms and/or lightsaber techniques (Sora Bulq, Exar Kun, and Mace Windu), were madly dedicated to honing their skills (Kas'im), possessed literally centuries of training and experience (Yoda, and Vodo Siosk-Bass), were able to compete with powerful dark side driven Jedi whilst ten years out of practise, cut off from the Force and physically out of shape (Ulic Qel-Droma), or were declared some of the greatest swordsmen ever (Kas'im, Agen Kolar, Saesee Tiin, Kit Fisto and Tulak Hord) they really haven't displayed that great a level of lightsaber prowess (Damn, that was a long sentence). Sure, they were very good with their chosen lightsaber form, good for them, but it's not indicative of truly great ability in the grand scheme of things, and it certainly doesn't put them miles beyond renowned prodigies who have been able to hone their skills through the conflict of war (also, don't presume that I was trying to compare Revan and Malak's war experience to Anakin or Obi-Wan's, because I wasn't, I was simply pointing out that their given talent had obviously been realised to quite an extent given their battle experience).
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
While I could certainly understand Revan and Malak being above Obi-Wan in terms of their force ability and attunement, but above ANAKIN SKYWALKER?
1. Calm it with the CAPLOCKS.
2. You... do realise that Anakin Skywalker was only able to stalemate the mentioned Obi-Wan in a Force contest, yes? Really, the emphasis used to separate the two is completely unjustified and illogical, as they were virtual equals in Force power at the time in question (assuming that this is the RotS duo).
I'll give you an example when 'raw power' triumphs over developed force power; Bane vs. Kas'im, for example- when Bane, despite being far, far below Kas'im in terms of refinement, mastery, and combat knowledge, was capable of temporarily gaining the upper hand due to his vastly superior attunement to the force. The same would apply to Anakin, only on an even greater basis
Apparently you don't know what you're talking about.
Raw power is completely worthless when speaking in present terms. It's power that has yet to be developed; potential that has yet to be tapped. In the above example, Bane was able to overcome Kas'im to such a degree because of his developed power, not because of his untapped potential.
- aside from your logic of "Malak and Revan were war veterans ergo they have better developed force power!",
...
This is, no joke, one of the most absurd Strawmans I've ever come across.
I already explained the point I was making earlier, and it was that both Malak and Revan were highly renowned for being extremely talented lightsaber practitioners within their Order, and that they'd both had the opportunity to hone that kind of talent through the extreme battle experience that the Mandalorian Wars offered.
nothing points to Malak (Revan is displayed to be rather knowledgable and masterful) being particularly high up in the 'developed force power' scale,
He was capable of Force dominating trained Jedi with ease, that alone puts his power on a level far above Anakin or Obi-Wan who haven't displayed anything truly impressive.
while Anakin had the highest raw power in history.
Yes, raw power. Completely worthless until you manage to substantiate how much of it had been tapped, given he hadn't even progressed beyond the level of Obi-Wan.
This came into play when during his fight with Dooku, when he achieved his "In the zone" state of mind,
1. Now why do I get the feeling that you've been spending mad hours at the search buttons?
2. The novelisation fight scene is completely contradictory to the movie. It displays completely different sets of actions to the movie's complete version, and described the fight as being pretty one sided in the Jedi duo's favour when the movie clearly shows the opposite. "In the zone" Anakin is a product of invalid N-Canon material, and that's all.
he was capable of smashing Dooku,
"Palpatine has told Dooku. 'I have somebody who I think will be a great Sith Lord and I think we can get him to join us. But we need to test him. So we're going to setup a situation where you fight him. If he gets the best of you, then I'll stop the fight and he'll have passed the test. If you get the best of him, then we'll let him go, and we'll let him stew for a few more years until he's ready.' But behind it, obviously, is Palpatine's real intention: If Anakin is good enough, Anakin can kill Dooku and become Palpatine's new apprentice. But he didn't tell Dooku that."
--George Lucas, The Making Of ROTS; Page 41
1. "So we're going to setup a situation where you fight him. If he gets the best of you, then I'll stop the fight and he'll have passed the test."
So here we have Palpatine telling Dooku that he would stop the fight if Anakin managed to be in a position to kill him. In other words, he was fighting without the need of self preservation, an enormous disadvantage, in the sense that he wasn't quite fighting for his life, and thus wasn't quite pushing himself as hard as he otherwise would have.
2. "If you get the best of him, then we'll let him go, and we'll let him stew for a few more years until he's ready."
So here we have Palpatine essentially forbidding him from mortally harming Anakin, saying that if he wasn't quite ready, they'd let him go. An even bigger disadvantage, in the sense that he was limiting exactly what he could do by actively holding himself back from going for a killing blow.
So even if Anakin did "smash him," (completely subjective, with the exception of the novelisation, which in N-Canon in that respect anyway) he was only capable of doing it under extremely advantageous circumstances.
someone who certainly had an extremely large amount of time to refine himself in his form of choice and was also proven to have knowledge of all 7 forms, to pieces through his raw power, strength, and aggression alone- throughout the entire fight, he only gained energy, becoming what you might call a 'force wrecking ball'. In terms of force attunement? Anakin absolutely curbstomps Revan and Malak. And his technical knowledge, displayed by him, once again, being- by Dooku's own admission- the best Djem So user he had ever seen in his considerable time as a Lightsaber Instructor at the Jedi Temple.
1. Again, novelisation Dooku/Anakin fightscene = N-Canon, much like Nick Gillard, Ian McDiamond, and the RotS novelisation fight scene that had Palpatine appear a blur to the eyes of Anakin.
2. Where is it said or shown that Dooku has knowledge of all seven forms of lightsaber combat? A member named Quinlan Vos tried to prove as much a while back, and he failed miserably.
3. Again, I'm not denying Anakin's (or Obi-Wan's) technical ability, and I'm fully open to the possibility that it's superior to either Malak's or Revan's. What I am saying, however, is it's nothing truly special in the grand scheme of things, and certainly not miles beyond Revan and Malak's war hardened prodigy statuses. As I've been saying, according to the two beings in Star Wars who are likely the biggest authorities on the matter, Yoda and Kas'im, developed Force Power and Mastery are by far the most important factor when it comes to saber combat, and given that the weaker of the Sith duo, Malak, has displayed a level of Force ability that would put him far above either of the Jedi duo on the matter, Anakin and Obi-Wan would have to be significantly better with their saber technique to be able to compete, in fact, even better than the Sith are to them with the Force given it's the less significant factor, and nothing suggests that they are. Perhaps if they had mastered more forms, or had a much greater level of training and experience, but sadly, they don't.
4. Dooku's thoughts on the duo's saber ability, again, is the product of very much invalid N-Canon material.
With Obi-Wan, you might have more of a case, but the fact of the matter is that Obi-Wan was, too, capable of absolutely shocking Dooku with his prowess in Soresu- in the RotS novel, he is depicted multiple times to become 'one with the force', and to let it completely control him to the point that it might have been the lightsaber doing the whole work, guided entirely by the force- clearly, the way he uses the force in lightsaber combat is more than formidable, and he is certainly not lacking in that aspect.
Jedi Masters are almost always described in such a way. Substantiate what it means for Obi-Wan, and prove that it puts him on a high enough level in saber ability to bridge the gap created by Revan and Malak's significant superiority in force ability, or drop the point.
Obi-Wan's 'own admission' stems from him having a rather low opinion of his skills and having extreme modesty;
While that's very much true, there's a limit to the effect modesty has on a person's self belief; at the end of the day, if he truly was very proficient with anything other than Soresu, he wouldn't have been completely oblivious to such a fact.
you also have the fact that in TPM, he used Ataru to a degree sufficient to hold his own against Darth friggin' Maul.
Exactly. At the time of TPM. He completely abandoned the form after recognising its defencive weaknesses, and it's likely after about ten years that he was no longer very proficient with it. His words do indicate as much after all.
He was also capable of completely duping Dooku, despite Obi-Wan's reputation, into thinking that he used Shii-Cho and Ataru.
Have you even read the novel? Both he and Anakin had planned to fool Dooku into believing that they were no threat to him whatsoever, to put him into a false sense of security, and then catch him off guard by using their actual practised lightsaber forms. All that Obi-Wan did was dupe Dooku into believing that he was a very poor practitioner of those forms, which last time I checked, only demanded a poor level of ability with said forms in the first place.
Not that it matters, as the novel, in that segment of it, is completely N-Canon.
He has knowledge of more than one form-
I didn't deny as much, but it's an insignificant point, and does little to raise his saber profile. As I was saying, he would have to be a good notch above Revan or Malak is lightsaber ability to be able to compete with their level of Force enhanced abilities, and being a very high level Master with one form, as well as having an extremely poor level of ability with a couple of others doesn't quite have that effect. You'd have to be an Ulic Qel-Droma, or Kas'im, to be a good notch or two above a battle hardened lightsaber prodigy.
and his skill with Soresu is sufficient to make Mace Windu- a master of all seven forms, and a normally stern person who doesn't give compliments acknowledge his prowess with Soresu that he actually implied that he sees Obi-Wan as a greater swordsman than himself.
Again, good for Obi-Wan, but he would have to be a good league above Malak or Obi-Wan in lightsaber technique to be able to compete with them, given how they themselves were at least a league above him in what's logically a far more significant factor. Being a lightsaber prodigy already puts you at a pretty high level, which both Malak and Revan were, and to be a good level above that would require an extraordinary level of ability in the grand scheme of things; as I was saying, limited to their chosen lightsaber form, and time period, they were great. In the grand scheme of things, or beyond their chosen lightsaber form? Not so much.
Obi-Wan was also capable of contending with 20 strikes per second from Grievous, who could WTFpwn several Jedi at once.
No, 16 strikes per second was the most he could contend with, and 20 strikes a second was described as "overloading" his defences. You'll see it's all there to be found in the novelisation, if you ever bother to read it.
As for 'war experience'? Obi-Wan was older than both Revan and Malak, and participated in numerous large-scale conflicts, including being one of the most famous participants of the Clone Wars, as was Anakin.
Again, the point I was making was that Revan and Malak weren't exactly very talented padawans with lightsabers, but very talented practitioners of the weapons that had honed their ability through the art of war. To actually be of prodigy status, and to have actually received battle experience puts them at a very high level, and Anakin and Obi-Wan's exceptional ability would have to progress beyond their time or chosen form of combat to be considered a good notch above Revan or Malak's level of ability.
Originally posted by Chick Magnet
Nebs...Dark Lord Rise of Darth Vader STATES that Vader was a master of ALL known forms of combat. There goes your "argument"...
Could you provide the passage surrounding the statement and the page number so I can form my own interpretation because that sounds pretty damn farfetched. Also, what exact point in time was the statement made at, and explain how it amounts to anything more than meaningless hyperbole, because the idea that he had mastered all known forms of combat in his short lifetime seems impossibly unlikely.
Originally posted by HomoSuperior
1. Calm it with the CAPLOCKS.
Make me.
Originally posted by HomoSuperior
2. You... do realise that Anakin Skywalker was only able to stalemate the mentioned Obi-Wan in a Force contest, yes? Really, the emphasis used to separate the two is completely unjustified and illogical, as they were virtual equals in Force power at the time in question (assuming that this is the RotS duo).
I cannot understand how you think that they were virtually equal in a force contest when Anakin had the greatest raw power out of any force user in history. Although Anakin's lack of mastery affected his force push to the extent that Obi-Wan- through far superior mastery- was capable of stalemating him. Here are quotes to support it:
"Skywalker was a storm cloud, flickering with dangerous lightning, building the rotation that threatens a tornado."- This is an example of how much- from Dooku's point of view- Anakin's insane power allowed him to become more powerful, allowing him to 'explode', in a sense, in combat.
"The first overhand chop of Skywalker's blade slid off Dooku's instinctive guard. The second bent Dooku's wrist. The third flash of blue forced Dooku's scarlet blade so far to the inside that his own lightsaber scorched his shoulder, and Dooku was forced to give ground."- As you can see, Anakin's immense strength was capable of completely outclassing Dooku, making him barely even able to hold his lightsaber against Anakin's onslaught.
"Dooku felt himself blanch. Where had this come from? Skywalker came on, mechanically inexorable, impossibly powerful, a destroyer droid with a lightsaber: each step a blow and each blow a step. Dooku backed away as fast as he dared; Skywalker stayed right on top of him. Dooku's breath went short and hard. He no longer tried to block Skywalker's strikes but only to guide them slanting away; he could not meet Skywalker strength-to-strength-not only did the boy wield tremendous reserves of Force energy, but his sheer physical power was astonishing-And only then did Dooku understand that he'd been suckered."- And, once again, you have how Anakin's raw power, stamina, strength, and reserve of force energy allowed him to completely astonish and catch Dooku off-guard- indeed, it made him incapable of even attempting a counter-strike.
"The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and Skywalker-Skywalker was getting stronger."- Anakin only grew stronger during the onslaught, and his power was described as 'unstoppable'- this is, once again, depicting percisely how Anakin became a 'force wrecking ball' and completely destroyed Dooku.
Later, the fight depicts how Anakin shocked Dooku, with Dooku becoming truly afraid to cause the 'furnace to go supercritical'.
As you can see, Anakin's raw power is clearly a factor in his fights- it completely dominated Dooku's VASTLY superior developed skill. A skill that, indeed, beats the shit out of Kas'im's own.
Originally posted by HomoSuperior
Apparently you don't know what you're talking about.Raw power is completely worthless when speaking in present terms. It's power that has yet to be developed; potential that has yet to be tapped. In the above example, Bane was able to overcome Kas'im to such a degree because of his developed power, not because of his untapped potential.
I've just displayed how it is, with the likes of Anakin, a deciding factor in a fight that allowed him to overcome the unimaginably more refined Dooku. Point is moot.
Originally posted by HomoSuperior
I already explained the point I was making earlier, and it was that both Malak and Revan were highly renowned for being extremely talented lightsaber practitioners within their Order, and that they'd both had the opportunity to hone that kind of talent through the extreme battle experience that the Mandalorian Wars offered.
Right then. Malak's and Revan's 'high renown' (could you please provide the quotes detaling their 'uber rep!!111!!'😉 is blown to pieces by Obi-Wan's and Anakin's renown by vastly more skilled and powerful people (such as Mace), and their war experience just as easily matches the Mandalorian Wars. In addition- unlike Revan and Malak- they received considerably more experience in dueling against other people wielding lightsabers, such as their numerous confrontations with Asajj Ventress, Dooku, and their fights with Grievous, Maul, etc... the list goes on. Give me a single formidable force-sensitive foe who Malak and Revan defeated and is even close to the level of Maul, Grievous, Dooku, and the likes.
Originally posted by HomoSuperior
He was capable of Force dominating trained Jedi with ease, that alone puts his power on a level far above Anakin or Obi-Wan who haven't displayed anything truly impressive.
Certainly, Malak might have a better mastery of the force than the duo- but it is negated by Anakin's incredible raw power, which, as I have displayed, does indeed come into play in combat.
Originally posted by HomoSuperior
1. Now why do I get the feeling that you've been spending mad hours at the search buttons?
Because you're delusional?
Originally posted by HomoSuperior
2. The novelisation fight scene is completely contradictory to the movie. It displays completely different sets of actions to the movie's complete version, and described the fight as being pretty one sided in the Jedi duo's favour when the movie clearly shows the opposite. "In the zone" Anakin is a product of invalid N-Canon material, and that's all.
Then the following quote is of no relevance?
Coming from Matthew Stover:
"Though I did not personally watch him do it, I received from LFL a Word document of Revenge of the Sith with Mr Lucas' edits, which was distinct from the edits I'd already gotten from Sue Rostoni and Howard Roffman and the rest of the LFL crew, and this document was edited in such a detailed fashion that even individual words had been struck off and his preferred replacements inserted, as well as some passages wholly excised and some dialogue replaced with the dialogue from the screenplay. If that's not line-editing, I don't know what is.
What's in that book is there because Mr. Lucas wanted it to be there. What's not in that book is not there because Mr. Lucas wanted it gone.
Period. "
Lucas was clearly a heavy authority on the novel- unless you think Stover is lying, you see how the novel is certainly canon, as Lucas personally reviewed it and edited it.
Originally posted by HomoSuperior
"Palpatine has told Dooku. 'I have somebody who I think will be a great Sith Lord and I think we can get him to join us. But we need to test him. So we're going to setup a situation where you fight him. If he gets the best of you, then I'll stop the fight and he'll have passed the test. If you get the best of him, then we'll let him go, and we'll let him stew for a few more years until he's ready.' But behind it, obviously, is Palpatine's real intention: If Anakin is good enough, Anakin can kill Dooku and become Palpatine's new apprentice. But he didn't tell Dooku that."--George Lucas, The Making Of ROTS; Page 41
1. [b]"So we're going to setup a situation where you fight him. If he gets the best of you, then I'll stop the fight and he'll have passed the test."
So here we have Palpatine telling Dooku that he would stop the fight if Anakin managed to be in a position to kill him. In other words, he was fighting without the need of self preservation, an enormous disadvantage, in the sense that he wasn't quite fighting for his life, and thus wasn't quite pushing himself as hard as he otherwise would have.
2. "If you get the best of him, then we'll let him go, and we'll let him stew for a few more years until he's ready."
So here we have Palpatine essentially forbidding him from mortally harming Anakin, saying that if he wasn't quite ready, they'd let him go. An even bigger disadvantage, in the sense that he was limiting exactly what he could do by actively holding himself back from going for a killing blow.
So even if Anakin did "smash him," (completely subjective, with the exception of the novelisation, which in N-Canon in that respect anyway) he was only capable of doing it under extremely advantageous circumstances.[/B]
Your entire point is defeated due to the novel, as I had proven above, being canon- also, the novel claimed that Dooku went for the kill, believing that Sidious would understand it.
Originally posted by HomoSuperior
1. Again, novelisation Dooku/Anakin fightscene = N-Canon, much like Nick Gillard, Ian McDiamond, and the RotS novelisation fight scene that had Palpatine appear a blur to the eyes of Anakin.
You make me laugh, Nebaris. When a source benefits your argument, you claim it's canon, no matter what- but when people with heavy authority, such as the ones you mentioned above say something, it's non-canon. Why? Because you said so.
Originally posted by HomoSuperior
2. Where is it said or shown that Dooku has knowledge of all seven forms of lightsaber combat? A member named Quinlan Vos tried to prove as much a while back, and he failed miserably.
When he personally trained Grievous in all seven forms of combat?
The rest of your argument is made redunant due to how I disproved the points you've made previously in the post.