Revan and Malak vs. Anakin and Obi-Wan

Originally posted by Faunus
I wouldn't go that far. As we've already established, Obi-Wan managed to outsmart and defeat him. Every combatant you just mentioned is both faster and more technically skilled than Anakin while also possessing a greater grasp of the Force. Mace and Bane are also considerably stronger than he is while eclipsing his proficiency in multiple lightsaber forms, and the latter has impenetrable body armor covering everything but his head and wrists. Then of course, there's Luke.

I'd say all of them could take Anakin with relative impunity, if with a considerable amount of difficulty.

Shame on me. I forgot Obi-Wan ^^. Yes, Obi-Wan is certainly one of the few capable of taking Anakin in combat- but, as I've established previously, it was only due to his dominance in the psychological aspect of the fight.

Also, you'll have to take into account the depictions of Anakin's strength in the novel (which I have posted in my debate with Nebaris), sufficient to completely outclass Dooku, tire him out, and prevent him from launching a counterattack- while Dooku isn't exactly what you'd call physically strong, and also has the disadvantage of using a form that generates little kinetic energy, it already displays Anakin's physical strength as immense. And while he may not be nearly as physically conditioned as either Bane or Mace, his raw power and 'force wrecking ball' status may allow him to match them in a contest of strength.

Each one of the foes I've listed hold a definete advantage over Anakin in combat, as you have indeed said- Mace has his Vaapad's advantages over dark side energy, as generated by Anakin 'in teh zone', and also his shatterpoint, while Sidious and Yoda have their speed and agility- Bane has his physical strength and his orbalisks. Luke, meanwhile, is superior to Anakin in almost all respects. They're all more practiced and technically skilled than he is.

Now that I've quit my rambling, I'd say that I basically agree with you on the fact that while any of them above mentioned duelists can take Anakin down, he can certainly put up a fight.

Originally posted by Faunus
Every combatant you just mentioned is both faster and more technically skilled than Anakin while also possessing a greater grasp of the Force. Mace and Bane are also considerably stronger than he is

the ROTS Novel calls Anakin the strongest and fastest jedi of his generation, perhaps of any generation. it says most powerful as well, but i assume that relates to raw power, as yoda was later described as the most "devastatingly powerful."

Originally posted by Faunus
I'd say all of them could take Anakin with relative impunity, if with a considerable amount of difficulty.

well yeah maybe. i think it should be noted that he seems to get stronger as the fight goes on. so any of the top dogs would have a decent chance at taking Anakin early on in the fight(like dooku almost did) but as the fight progresses Anakins chances significantly increase.

thats why having Obi-Wan help Anakin against Dooku actually did help him early on in the fight, when he would need the most aid. (even though it may have looked liked Obi-Wans contribution to winning that fight was next to nothing.)

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
the ROTS Novel calls Anakin the strongest and fastest jedi of his generation, perhaps of any generation. it says most powerful as well, but i assume that relates to raw power, as yoda was later described as the most "devastatingly powerful."

I always, personally, interpreted that quote as coming from Anakin's point of view- the fact that Yoda is the 'most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known' clearly overwrites this quote of Anakin being the most powerful Jedi of his generation. Or else, it's possible to note this quote only refers to Anakin's specific generation- Yoda and Mace are hardly from 'Anakin's generation', being his seniors by many years- even Obi-Wan has more than 10 years on him.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
I always, personally, interpreted that quote as coming from Anakin's point of view- the fact that Yoda is the 'most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known' clearly overwrites this quote of Anakin being the most powerful Jedi of his generation. Or else, it's possible to note this quote only refers to Anakin's specific generation- Yoda and Mace are hardly from 'Anakin's generation', being his seniors by many years- even Obi-Wan has more than 10 years on him.

hmm... i dunno.. i seriously doubt that quote was comparing Anakin to all the 20 year old jedis. generation to me implicated all the jedis of that time period. thats who that generation of jedis are. also lets not forget the quote also said "perhaps of ANY generation."

Mace also says later on that "Skywalker is arguably the most powerful jedi alive.."

devastatingly powerful specifically means using power in the most destructive and effective way. so Anakin could be the most powerful in terms of raw power. but yoda the most devastatingly powerful. theres no contradiction there.

While Kenobi's mastery of Soresu is very, very formidable, I stand by the fact that the only reason he was able to last against Anakin was that he knew him inside and out:

"Blade to blade, they were identical. After thousands of hours in lightsaber sparring, they knew each other better then brothers, more intimately than lovers."

That added with he knows him psychologically, Padme being there, and Anakin still being somewhat conflicted (As alluded to in the ROTS novel and flat out stated in Dark Lord) plus the hectic environment leads to a OB1 victory...barely

Had they been on flat ground with no corridors, lava, platforms etc etc, it removes Obi Wan's ability to use the environment to his advantage, without that Kenobi is dead. Anakin has never faced a foe who held so many advantages over him, and even still he manages to unleash all types of hell on his former master.

As for Anakin and Yoda, Anakin has FAR more raw power then Yoda ever will, and when that manifests itself (The Dooku fight) he's nigh unstoppable, however he rarely gets into this state of mind.

On anther point, Mace constantly admits all throughout Shatterpoint, that Anakin is superior to him, in the force that is, and thats simply knowing him as a Jedi, with no knowledge of his dark power biding beneath the surface. Where do people get the idea that a fifty+ year old man (Mace) is some how physically stronger or faster then Anakin? A 20 year old whose built like a tank, who has all the force power in the world to augment his strength and speed. Dooku called him a destroyer droid with a saber, he snapped Ventress's wrists like twigs. Not to mention the ROTS quote which calls him the fastest and strongest Jedi flat out.

^^ totally agreed.. I think the novel makes that quite clear..

Chick Magnet do you agree with me that the best chance to take Anakin out is if its early on in the fight, because he gets stronger the longer he fights.. Dooku kicked Anakin on to his rear in the first half of the fight, so if he didnt have to deal with Obi1 then that might have been an oppurtunity for Dooku to win, The Only Oppurtunity.. as after that Anakin was just all over him.

Originally posted by Chick Magnet
On anther point, Mace constantly admits all throughout Shatterpoint, that Anakin is superior to him, in the force that is, and thats simply knowing him as a Jedi, with no knowledge of his dark power biding beneath the surface.

Where do people get the idea that a fifty+ year old man (Mace) is some how physically stronger or faster then Anakin? A 20 year old whose built like a tank, who has all the force power in the world to augment his strength and speed. Dooku called him a destroyer droid with a saber, he snapped Ventress's wrists like twigs.

The point being that when backed by the Force, Mace is stronger than Anakin, and his speed is sufficient to literally put Sidious on his ass.

Not to mention the ROTS quote which calls him the fastest and strongest Jedi flat out.

While Anakin Skywalker's raw power grants him moments where he becomes essentially unstoppable, I disagree that he could take on and defeat the likes of Yoda and Darth Sidious in single combat as of Revenge of the Sith; Skywalker's problem is that he is a deeply disturbed individual, psychologically, which seems to have an adverse effect on his Force strength; consider that in Labyrinth of Evil, he was capable of bringing down the roof of a tremendous factory and almost killing Count Dooku just by shouting. Yet during his fight with Obi-Wan, he was unable to overpower Kenobi's Force push. Skywalker's fragile mental state seems to be directly tied to his fluctuating Force powers. Against Yoda, Skywalker is facing someone who would probably have crushed Dooku in the same amount of time -- consider that Yoda was able to outpace and force the Count to retreat even when Dooku was on Vjun, where his own formidable Force powers were enhanced. Likewise, Yoda's experience is lightyears beyond Anakin's, and he is a smaller target. Finally, Yoda is stated by the omniscient narrator to be "the most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known" -- which trumps the previous statement that Anakin was possibly the strongest of any generation (he certainly had the potential, but I doubt he was the most powerful Jedi in actuality as of Revenge of the Sith). Against Darth Sidious, Anakin is even more screwed. Say what you want about Skywalker's prodigious lightsaber skills, the fact remains that when he was fighting someone like Obi-Wan, he was conflicted and deranged. I'd imagine fighting against his even closer friend and mentor would have an even greater effect; Palpatine's unparalleled mastery of psychology notwithstanding, he'd likely reduce Skywalker to tears in a couple of words. Palpatine is also a very cagey and cunning fighter, a master of multiple forms, and also a master of martial arts (having personally trained Maul in them). Force-wise? He, like Yoda, will curbstomp Anakin.

I'm not so sure about Mace, but I don't think Anakin would have an easy time even if he did win.

Edit: Faunus, where is it that Windu's "speed" was enough to put Sidious on his ass? If anything, Sidious demonstrated vastly superior speed than Windu.

He says nothing of the sort, actually. Mace notes at the end of the book that Anakin is the new shatterpoint of the war, and separately muses that he may be the most powerful Jedi alive, and is only getting stronger. 'Powerful' as in realized raw power. Anakin clearly can't contend with the 'Big Four' in Force contests, considering he couldn't even overpower Kenobi.

Thats exactly what I would say Escape, its the only way to explain Anakins fluctuating power level all throughout the latter days of the clone wars, and as I was saying I'm talking about the Anakin whose in the mindstate he was aboard the Invisible Hand fighting no, raping Count Dooku. THAT Anakin would murk nearly everybody. However Anakin in generally very power and enough to contain with the "Big 4" as you put it on anyday.

And yeah a mentally unstable, paranoid, heart-broken Anakin couldn't overpower Kenobi...big whoop. A very pissed off Anakin was able to as the Novel not I put it make a complete joke out of Count friggin Dooku.

As for Mace, yes he does, theres the point yoou mention, the time when he saved the Balawi children and thinks if he had Yoda or Anakins power that the task would be easy, then following when he meets Kar Vastor in combat he compares Kar Vastors power to Anakin and Yoda's.

The 'fifty+ year old man' practically beat the two-meter tall, 'granite chested' Kar Vastor - a man with the raw Force power to rival that of Yoda and Anakin himself - into the ground. Someone "half his age and twice his size." Anakin's a twig compared to Vastor, and happens to be smaller in build than Mace.

LOL WUT.

I seem to interpret things differently as I distinctly remember Kar beating the ever loving shit out of Mace Windu, like practically in a coma type of beating the ever loving shit of. Then he goes on to say he couldn't beat Kar Vastor on his best day. Jesus that was a blatant as lie on your part.

Originally posted by Gideon
While Anakin Skywalker's raw power grants him moments where he becomes essentially unstoppable, I disagree that he could take on and defeat the likes of Yoda and Darth Sidious in single combat as of Revenge of the Sith; Skywalker's problem is that he is a deeply disturbed individual, psychologically, which seems to have an adverse effect on his Force strength; consider that in Labyrinth of Evil, he was capable of bringing down the roof of a tremendous factory and almost killing Count Dooku just by shouting. Yet during his fight with Obi-Wan, he was unable to overpower Kenobi's Force push. Skywalker's fragile mental state seems to be directly tied to his fluctuating Force powers. Against Yoda, Skywalker is facing someone who would probably have crushed Dooku in the same amount of time -- consider that Yoda was able to outpace and force the Count to retreat even when Dooku was on Vjun, where his own formidable Force powers were enhanced. Likewise, Yoda's experience is lightyears beyond Anakin's, and he is a smaller target. Finally, Yoda is stated by the omniscient narrator to be "the most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known" -- which trumps the previous statement that Anakin was possibly the strongest of any generation (he certainly had the potential, but I doubt he was the most powerful Jedi in actuality as of Revenge of the Sith). Against Darth Sidious, Anakin is even more screwed. Say what you want about Skywalker's prodigious lightsaber skills, the fact remains that when he was fighting someone like Obi-Wan, he was conflicted and deranged. I'd imagine fighting against his even closer friend and mentor would have an even greater effect; Palpatine's unparalleled mastery of psychology notwithstanding, he'd likely reduce Skywalker to tears in a couple of words. Palpatine is also a very cagey and cunning fighter, a master of multiple forms, and also a master of martial arts (having personally trained Maul in them). Force-wise? He, like Yoda, will curbstomp Anakin.

I'm not so sure about Mace, but I don't think Anakin would have an easy time even if he did win.

Edit: Faunus, where is it that Windu's "speed" was enough to put Sidious on his ass? If anything, Sidious demonstrated vastly superior speed than Windu.

I don't think anyone here was talking about an all-out fight; if anything, people were discussing the outcome of a pure lightsaber duel between Anakin and the 'top dogs'- in which he comes considerably closer to them, as displayed by his raw power, becoming more powerful as the fight goes on, etc, etc, etc. However, as Faunus noted, he is slower and less technically skilled than Mace "multiple visible arms", Sidious "blur of speed", and Yoda "whirlwind of destruction". However, I think that while they will most probably defeat him in a lightsaber duel, he'd give them a hell of a time, if not win.

It's also been confirmed by the novel that Anakin used his rage to overcome Dooku- seeing as rage generates dark side energy, Mace will, undoubtedly, be able to explot it and copy Anakin's usual advantages in combat just like he could to Sidious's normally vastly superior speed, in your words. But, in an all-out fight, he'd fare significantly worse than Yoda and Sidious, due primarly to their superior force powers (especially Sidious'- one shot of lightning, and Anakin is toast).

I've come to the conclusion that Anakin is second only to the above three in terms of lightsaber skill- at least so in the PT.

Anakin was called the most powerful jedi of his generation perhaps any. and then the narrator goes on to say, "he's the fastest. the strongest." that part didnt refer to any particular generation.

also remember how dooku saw anakin as "a destroyer droid with a lightsaber." this on its own not only shows Anakins awsome strength, but speed as well. Strength and Speed which Dooku could not handle. so i dnt see any proof that Mace is as fast or as strong as Anakin.

also Anakin didnt just use rage against Dooku, but he also let go of all the power which he usually holds back on. he hadnt actually embraced the darkside, so im not sure if Mace's superconducting loop wuld work on an anakin who was using rage as a tool but was still himself a lightsider.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Anakin was called the most powerful jedi of his generation perhaps any. and then the narrator goes on to say, "he's the fastest. the strongest." that part didnt refer to any particular generation.

also remember how dooku saw anakin as "a destroyer droid with a lightsaber." this on its own not only shows Anakins awsome strength, but speed as well. Strength and Speed which Dooku could not handle. so i dnt see any proof that Mace is as fast or as strong as Anakin.

also Anakin didnt just use rage against Dooku, but he also let go of all the power which he usually holds back on. he hadnt actually embraced the darkside, so im not sure if Mace's superconducting loop wuld work on an anakin who was using rage as a tool but was still himself a lightsider.

Anyone using the dark side- and rage generates dark side energy- is prone to Vaapad's effects. The percise quotes obiviously refers to him as the 'strongest, the fastest' Jedi of his generation- which hardly contradicts anything, seeing as he's clearly the most talented Jedi of his generation, and most probably far surpasses anyone of the top dogs when they were at his age (compare RotS Anakin to TPM Obi-Wan, for example).

While Anakin certainly isn't lacking in speed, he overwhelmed Dooku due to his strength and stamina- never once is it stated that Anakin's speed was overwhelming Dooku, for that matter. Mace, meanwhile, attacked so fast that onlookers (Anakin himself, in the RotS novel- and while that doesn't exactly happen in the movie, the speeds depicted in this fight, according to quotes and such, are still very much canon) saw multiple arms. Sorry, but while you can argue that Anakin is physically stronger than Mace (and that would only be due to his raw power), Anakin isn't exactly equal to Mace in speed.

However, I think that the only fights in the PT who can overwhelm Anakin due to their speed are Yoda and Sidious- and even they will need more than their superior speed to defeat Anakin.

well when Dooku saw him as a destroyer droid with a lightsaber, to me that always seemed to imply overwhelming strength and speed. as destroyer droids are both those things. otherwise he wuldnt have overwhelmed dooku so badly who himself is very fast.

and anakins raw power in the force would give him just as much strength as it would speed.

also when Anakin sees mace with multiple arms thats in the fight with sidious when mace has merged into vapaad to give him the same speed that sidious has.

Originally posted by Chick Magnet
As for Mace, yes he does, theres the point yoou mention, the time when he saved the Balawi children and thinks if he had Yoda or Anakins power that the task would be easy, then following when he meets Kar Vastor in combat he compares Kar Vastors power to Anakin and Yoda's.

LOL WUT.

I seem to interpret things differently as I distinctly remember Kar beating the ever loving shit out of Mace Windu, like practically in a coma type of beating the ever loving shit of. Then he goes on to say he couldn't beat Kar Vastor on his best day. Jesus that was a blatant as lie on your part.

I guess you missed the entire fight before that. Namely, the parts where, among other things, Mace - who is, by the way, already wounded and battered by this point - initiates the fight by meeting Kar in a flying tackle that creates visible streaks of lightning on impact and manages to suspend them in mid-air long enough for the two to exchange a series of blows and grapples, lands six different blows on Kar's head and body before he can so much as blink, and at the very end, punches him in the face with enough force to flip him backwards. Of course, Vastor being pretty much the most physically supreme being in the PT while also rivaling Yoda in power, the fact that Mace wouldn't be able to beat him 'on his best day' doesn't detract from him at all.

And as I've been stating over and over when Anakin was aboard the Invisible Hand in his fight with Dooku he utilized his raw force power in such away that makes him one of the most powerful beings light or dark to ever live, I'm saying THAT Anakin would stand against all the foes you've mentioned.

As for Mace, all thats super and all but AGAIN after Mace slips into Vaapad and gives him all he's got Kar Vastor gets up smiling, and proceeds to beat him into submission. So it kinda voids what Mace did. Really since the fight is from Mace's POV we don't even know if Kar allowed Mace to do all that just to get up and flaunt his superiority over him, I'm not saying that he did but it is a possibility.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
well when Dooku saw him as a destroyer droid with a lightsaber, to me that always seemed to imply overwhelming strength and speed. as destroyer droids are both those things. otherwise he wuldnt have overwhelmed dooku so badly who himself is very fast.

and anakins raw power in the force would give him just as much strength as it would speed.

also when Anakin sees mace with multiple arms thats in the fight with sidious when mace has merged into vapaad to give him the same speed that sidious has.

That's a good point- however, you have the fact that Vaapad is constantly described that way, with multiple visible arms. Also, I don't own Shatterpoint, but isn't there a quote there emphasizing Mace's speed? I'm not certain- if you own it, maybe you can check.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
That's a good point- however, you have the fact that Vaapad is constantly described that way, with multiple visible arms. Also, I don't own Shatterpoint, but isn't there a quote there emphasizing Mace's speed? I'm not certain- if you own it, maybe you can check.

yeah iv got shatterpoint although not read the whole thing yet.

but iv read the part about Vapaad being a predator which you dnt know how many tentacles it has until it kills you. so Mace's speed through Vapaad is described in the same way.

so im not denying Mace's incredible speed. just comparing it to Anakins "Destroyer Droid" type offensive, which completely overwhelmed Dooku. and also remembering Dark Rendevouz stating Dooku and Mace being equals in bladework.

Also I remember in the ROTS novel Mace accepting Sidious's superior speed, but then using Vapaad's superconducting loop to match him.

so yeah to be honest not sure whom would be faster out of Anakin and Mace, but id say Anakins definetely stronger being a "Destroyer Driod with a lightsaber."

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
yeah iv got shatterpoint although not read the whole thing yet.

but iv read the part about Vapaad being a predator which you dnt know how many tentacles it has until it kills you. so Mace's speed through Vapaad is described in the same way.

so im not denying Mace's incredible speed. just comparing it to Anakins "Destroyer Droid" type offensive, which completely overwhelmed Dooku. and also remembering Dark Rendevouz stating Dooku and Mace being equals in bladework.

Also I remember in the ROTS novel Mace accepting Sidious's superior speed, but then using Vapaad's superconducting loop to match him.

so yeah to be honest not sure whom would be faster out of Anakin and Mace, but id say Anakins definetely stronger being a "Destroyer Driod with a lightsaber."

Anakin may, indeed, be physically stronger due to his unrivaled raw power, as depicted in his fight against Dooku- however, at the same time, Mace has incredible levels of physical conditioning, and the fact that Mace's superconducting loop will possibly allow him to copy Anakin's strength, generated by rage.

Dooku and Mace, circa Dark Rendezvous, may indeed by equal in terms of their pure bladework- in the sense that while Dooku may be more technically skilled, but Mace has better conditioning, speed, stamina, and his shatterpoint ability. Meanwhile, however, Mace was capable of scoring a win against an opponent that was arguably superior in terms of pure bladework via his Vaapad (granting him Sidious' usual speed and agility advantage), and his Shatterpoint ability- according to Nick Gillard, Mace is superior to Dooku in lightsaber combat, too. Obssession also depicts Dooku running away from Mace in combat. I think it's quite clear- to me, at least- that Mace is Dooku's superior, at least in lightsaber combat.

Again, I think that the only two combatants in the PT who can claim a particularly significant speed advantage over Anakin are Yoda and Darth Sidious- while Mace is faster, I'm not exactly certain that his speed alone will be able to dominate Anakin.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Anakin may, indeed, be physically stronger due to his unrivaled raw power, as depicted in his fight against Dooku- however, at the same time, Mace has incredible levels of physical conditioning, and the fact that Mace's superconducting loop will possibly allow him to copy Anakin's strength, generated by rage.

to be honest i dnt knw.. because i dnt really understand precisely how Mace's Superconducting Loop works. it's quite complicated to me.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Dooku and Mace, circa Dark Rendezvous, may indeed by equal in terms of their pure bladework- in the sense that while Dooku may be more technically skilled, but Mace has better conditioning, speed, stamina, and his shatterpoint ability.

yeah something like that. agreed.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Meanwhile, however, Mace was capable of scoring a win against an opponent that was arguably superior in terms of pure bladework via his Vaapad (granting him Sidious' usual speed and agility advantage), and his Shatterpoint ability-.

im not sure how relevant A>B>C argument is here, as it all depends on how Mace's superconducting loop would work on Dooku, which iv already stated I dnt fully understand. all I know is it helped Mace to match Sidious in Speed and Power during their duel.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
according to Nick Gillard, Mace is superior to Dooku in lightsaber combat, too.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Obssession also depicts Dooku running away from Mace in combat. I think it's quite clear- to me, at least- that Mace is Dooku's superior, at least in lightsaber combat.

dnt want to get wayyyy off topic here talking about Dooku, but iv never bought this argument. they seemed exactly equal in the duel. Dooku had many jedis after him, so didnt have time for a long battle with Mace. Not to mention the fight ended with Mace falling down a cliff unarmed. I find it highly unlikely that Dooku wuld be scared of Mace when if Dooku wanted to continue the battle he would have had the high ground and weapon advantage.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Again, I think that the only two combatants in the PT who can claim a particularly significant speed advantage over Anakin are Yoda and Darth Sidious- while Mace is faster, I'm not exactly certain that his speed alone will be able to dominate Anakin.

yeah your probably right about this.

Jedi Twilight is turning out to be an excellent book, and I thought I would share a revelation that is somewhat relevant to this thread from Nick Rostu (the Force sensitive who was witness to the final battle between Mace Windu and Kar Vastor):

"There was no doubt in Nick's mind that, were Kar Vastor pitted against Darth Vader, the feral Balawai renegade wouldn't stand a chance.

The Force was powerful in Vader; even the dim wattage of Nick's connection could feel that. It was far more powerful than it had been in Kar Vastor."