Revan and Malak vs. Anakin and Obi-Wan

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
Jedi Masters are almost always described in such a way. Substantiate what it means for Obi-Wan, and prove that it puts him on a high enough level in saber ability to bridge the gap created by Revan and Malak's significant superiority in force ability, or drop the point.

Show me once when a Jedi Master who is not extremely powerful did something such as 'letting the force guide him' and becoming a vessel for it, allowing it to control you- during his fights, Obi-Wan almost completely sank into a 'trance' fuelled by the force, enabling to vastly surpass his 'regular' fighting ability. Combine that with his superb Soresu, and you see how- in terms of lightsaber dueling- he absolutely shits on Malak and very possibly equally matches with Revan.

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
While that's very much true, there's a limit to the effect modesty has on a person's self belief; at the end of the day, if he truly was very proficient with anything other than Soresu, he wouldn't have been completely oblivious to such a fact.

Then how do you, exactly, explain how he was capable of making Dooku- someone with excellent knowledge of Obi-Wan's prodigious and well-publicized reputation, believe he is an Ataru and Shii-Cho user? He must have had some sort of profiency in these forms.

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
Exactly. At the time of TPM. He completely abandoned the form after recognising its defencive weaknesses, and it's likely after about ten years that he was no longer very proficient with it. His words do indicate as much after all.

And his actions indicate otherwise.

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
Have you even read the novel? Both he and Anakin had planned to fool Dooku into believing that they were no threat to him whatsoever, to put him into a false sense of security, and then catch him off guard by using their actual practised lightsaber forms. All that Obi-Wan did was dupe Dooku into believing that he was a very poor practitioner of those forms, which last time I checked, only demanded a poor level of ability with said forms in the first place.

They demanded some degree of ability, as he displayed the fact that it was sufficient to dupe Dooku- who is fully aware of Obi-Wan's and Anakin's prodigious skill- into thinking that they were practicians of these forms.

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
Not that it matters, as the novel, in that segment of it, is completely N-Canon.

Of course it is. If the novel had said "Obi-Wan and Anakin was being quickly defeated by Dooku", or "Sidious was disarmed by Yoda", or something along the lines of that, I'm sure you would've considered it canon.

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
I didn't deny as much, but it's an insignificant point, and does little to raise his saber profile. As I was saying, he would have to be a good notch above Revan or Malak is lightsaber ability to be able to compete with their level of Force enhanced abilities, and being a very high level Master with one form, as well as having an extremely poor level of ability with a couple of others doesn't quite have that effect. You'd have to be an Ulic Qel-Droma, or Kas'im, to be a good notch or two above a battle hardened lightsaber prodigy.

Anakin- in his 'in teh zone' state would be able to defeat Kas'im in combat, as would Obi-Wan be capable of defeating Ulic Qel-Droma. Your wild beliefs that everyone who can hold a lightsaber is superior to any PT Jedi deserve proof.

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
Again, good for Obi-Wan, but he would have to be a good league above Malak or Obi-Wan in lightsaber technique to be able to compete with them, given how they themselves were at least a league above him in what's logically a far more significant factor. Being a lightsaber prodigy already puts you at a pretty high level, which both Malak and Revan were, and to be a good level above that would require an extraordinary level of ability in the grand scheme of things; as I was saying, limited to their chosen lightsaber form, and time period, they were great. In the grand scheme of things, or beyond their chosen lightsaber form? Not so much.

You've yet to explain how Obi-Wan's entering into a 'force trance' and being, undisputably, the greatest master of Soresu in history- as well as Anakin's 'force wrecking ball' abilities- don't put them at significantly above Revan and Malak, who simply aren't known to display immense skill in lightsabers.

Their 'time period' is referred to, by George Lucas, to be the 'prime of the Jedi', when Jedi were at their absolute peak- I know you think that the Army of Light and every single random incarnation of the Jedi Order is superior to anything that appears in the movies because it benefits your argument, but it simply isn't true- it is supported by Lucas himself. It's very evidence that in the 'grand scheme of things', that particularly incarnation of the Jedi Order is certainly one of the best, if not the best, Jedi Order yet.

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
No, 16 strikes per second was the most he could contend with, and 20 strikes a second was described as "overloading" his defences. You'll see it's all there to be found in the novelisation, if you ever bother to read it.

I read it several times, thank you. And I said he was able to block up to 20 strikes per second- which is, already, insanely impressive. Especially coming from a droid who could be an even match with Mace Windu in combat, copy lightsaber forms, and completely overwhelm several talented Jedi at once.

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
Again, the point I was making was that Revan and Malak weren't exactly very talented padawans with lightsabers, but very talented practitioners of the weapons that had honed their ability through the art of war. To actually be of prodigy status, and to have actually received battle experience puts them at a very high level, and Anakin and Obi-Wan's exceptional ability would have to progress beyond their time or chosen form of combat to be considered a good notch above Revan or Malak's level of ability.

Again, Anakin and Obi-Wan had just as much experience as Revan and Malak (Obi-Wan even more so), and became the most famous Jedi of one of the most destructive galactic conflicts of all time. Nothing suggests that Malak and Revan were 'LIGHTSABER prodigies', while both Obi-Wan and Anakin were constantly praised as highly skilled combatants (and were able to completely frighten Dooku and Grievous, two known people who defeated and fought Jedi on numerous occasions), Malak and Revan are unknowns in terms of lightsaber abilities.

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
Could you provide the passage surrounding the statement and the page number so I can form my own interpretation because that sounds pretty damn farfetched. Also, what exact point in time was the statement made at, and explain how it amounts to anything more than meaningless hyperbole, because the idea that he had mastered all known forms of combat in his short lifetime seems impossibly unlikely.

Dark Lord: Rise Of Darth Vader pg 263

"Time and again the two Jedi Knights attempted to alter their style, but Vader had an answer for every lunge, parry, and riposte. His style borrowed elements from all techniques of combat, even from the highest, most dangerous levels and his moves were crisp and unpredictable."

Takes place a short time after ROTS

I misquoted it, however the point still stands Anakin knows more then just Djem So, and is more then adept at these combat forms, as he knows their most dangerous levels and as the passage states he implemented them into his own custom style, which to even do that he'd have to have a very firm grasp on these techniques in the first place. Really Neb there is no way around it you can attempt to dismiss it as hyperbole but thats in itself is dismissive of everything we know about Anakins raw combat ability, the guy who utterly smashed a Master of the lightsaber, Count Dooku in about 12 seconds. With his Djem So alone.

To even imply that Anakin is a n00b at everything else but Djem So is utter failure and flat out silly.

I always interpreted the ROTS duel as follows the scenes that contradict the movie is not canon but the parts of the duels that follows canon aka the movie scenes (and the thoughts of the characters in those scenes that follow canon) are canon. BTW where did Mar Stover say that?

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
I always interpreted the ROTS duel as follows the scenes that contradict the movie is not canon but the parts of the duels that follows canon aka the movie scenes (and the thoughts of the characters in those scenes that follow canon) are canon. BTW where did Mar Stover say that?

Don't know the exact interview. Maybe someone else can tell you...

^I agree, in the movie Anakin is MUCH more impressive anyways, and considering as evident in the novel Dooku pretty much says "**** this!" and starts taking the duo seriously, and really, when he saw that Palpatine was cheering on Anakin; I don't think it takes a genius to put together that Dooku kinda knew what was going on. The novel alludes to it with this line:

"Treachery is the way of the Sith"

In Dooku's POV right after he's baffled about Palpy helping Anakin.

Really Homo this is a tired argument, LeeLand Chee has said that the POV scenes and the narration are as canon as canon can be, meaning that Dooku shitting his pants over Anakins skill = CANON. Meaning that in the POV scene that follows were Anakins judgment in the force literally becomes reality = CANON. I thought we went through this like a year ago?

Anakin = Teh Shit.

And me being probably the biggest Revan fan on this forum would admit that Anakin would tap Revans ass in a saber duel, hell Anakin would tap almost ANYONES ass in a saber duel. I personally think the only person who could stand up to Anakin in the state of mind he was in during the end of the Dooku duel would be ROT Bane with all his little sea shells (And those are the ONLY reason for it).

Finally Homo your out right lying about Revan and Malak's saber skill its NEVER stated in KOTOR or anything for that matter that they were supreme duelist (not that I doubt they were) its only logical deduction and conjecture made off of Revans leet force ability but even that doesn't put either of them in Anakins league.

Originally posted by Chick Magnet
^I agree, in the movie Anakin is MUCH more impressive anyways, and considering as evident in the novel Dooku pretty much says "**** this!" and starts taking the duo seriously, and really, when he saw that Palpatine was cheering on Anakin; I don't think it takes a genius to put together that Dooku kinda knew what was going on. The novel alludes to it with this line:

"Treachery is the way of the Sith"

In Dooku's POV right after he's baffled about Palpy helping Anakin.

Really Homo this is a tired argument, LeeLand Chee has said that the POV scenes and the narration are as canon as canon can be, meaning that Dooku shitting his pants over Anakins skill = CANON. Meaning that in the POV scene that follows were Anakins judgment in the force literally becomes reality = CANON. I thought we went through this like a year ago?

Anakin = Teh Shit.

And me being probably the biggest Revan fan on this forum would admit that Anakin would tap Revans ass in a saber duel, hell Anakin would tap almost ANYONES ass in a saber duel. I personally think the only person who could stand up to Anakin in the state of mind he was in during the end of the Dooku duel would be ROT Bane with all his little sea shells (And those are the ONLY reason for it).

Finally Homo your out right lying about Revan and Malak's saber skill its NEVER stated in KOTOR or anything for that matter that they were supreme duelist (not that I doubt they were) its only logical deduction and conjecture made off of Revans leet force ability but even that doesn't put either of them in Anakins league.

While I certainly agree with the majority of your post, I think that Luke could certainly defeat him in a pure lightsaber duel. Sidious, Yoda, and Mace are also people who are faster and more controlled than Anakin, and therefore can at least contend with him- yes, Bane could defeat him, but perhaps Jacen or Kyle can stand up to him too. But yes- he is certainly a 'saber god', and is easily in the top 10 duelists of all time.

Lol, I love how AC just called him "Homo".

Originally posted by Chick Magnet
I personally think the only person who could stand up to Anakin in the state of mind he was in during the end of the Dooku duel would be ROT Bane with all his little sea shells (And those are the ONLY reason for it).

Who be dat?

Besides take away Padme and put them on a flat area with no lava pits/floating platforms/giant falling buildings/tarzan wire ropes and Obi Wan = dead. Considering even when he barley won he was trying "Anything just to slow him down."

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
because the idea that he had mastered all known forms of combat in his short lifetime seems impossibly unlikely.

Originally posted by Chick Magnet
Besides take away Padme and put them on a flat area with no lava pits/floating platforms/giant falling buildings/tarzan wire ropes and Obi Wan = dead. Considering even when he barley won he was trying "Anything just to slow him down."

Anakin > Obi-Wan is canonical fact. However, Obi-Wan is more than likely to take a rematch due to his vastly superior intelligence, coolness, and the knowledge of each one of Anakin's moves- he's simply smarter, in short. So he's most likely going to win.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Anakin > Obi-Wan is canonical fact. However, Obi-Wan is more than likely to take a rematch due to his vastly superior intelligence, coolness, and the knowledge of each one of Anakin's moves- he's simply smarter, in short. So he's most likely going to win.

QFT

Yes Obi Wan is probably the most cagey duelist in the mythos and could certainly pull another victory on Anakin. However, Styles has a point, take away the dangerous environmental conditions on Mustafar and Obi Wan would have been overwhelmed (the high ground won't have mattered without the river of lava in between them).

I don't know what fight you all were watching but the one I saw was Anakin absolutely dominating Obi Wan with OB1 constantly giving ground because he couldn't stand against Vader. The novel makes it clear that OB1 was desperate for anything to even slow Vader down, and was in constant fear for his life. When Anakin got a hold of him he nearly crushed Kenobi to death his his raw strength. The only reason he stood a chance in the first place was cause he knew Anakins moves like the back of his hand. And eventually Kenobi will slow down while Anakin just keeps getting stronger as the fight progresses.

Originally posted by Chick Magnet
I don't know what fight you all were watching but the one I saw was Anakin absolutely dominating Obi Wan with OB1 constantly giving ground because he couldn't stand against Vader. The novel makes it clear that OB1 was desperate for anything to even slow Vader down, and was in constant fear for his life. When Anakin got a hold of him he nearly crushed Kenobi to death his his raw strength. The only reason he stood a chance in the first place was cause he knew Anakins moves like the back of his hand. And eventually Kenobi will slow down while Anakin just keeps getting stronger as the fight progresses.

Have you ever heard of Soresu? It's a style designed to be on the defensive and constantly give ground- Obi-Wan, in short, controlled the flow of the fight and all, by constantly retreating, in order to tire Anakin out and find a place where he could gain a tactical advantage.

Yes, he was doing everything he can to keep Anakin at bay. Yes, Anakin is the superior swordsman. But was he 'afraid'? Especially when the novel makes it clear that he missed an opportunity to kill Anakin due to hesitation? Hardly. Anakin 'in teh zone' could give any force-user in history a hard time in sabers- but Obi-Wan, knowing all of his moves, styles, and most importantly of all, his psychological weaknesses, will win most times against him.

I think its possible that "t2h zone" or "crystal clear anakin" may be one of the best(or perhaps 2nd to luke) in terms of swordsman ship abilities.

Note: this is my personal opinion so don't bash me for that.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Have you ever heard of Soresu? It's a style designed to be on the defensive and constantly give ground- Obi-Wan, in short, controlled the flow of the fight and all, by constantly retreating, in order to tire Anakin out and find a place where he could gain a tactical advantage.

Yes, he was doing everything he can to keep Anakin at bay. Yes, Anakin is the superior swordsman. But was he 'afraid'? Especially when the novel makes it clear that he missed an opportunity to kill Anakin due to hesitation? Hardly. Anakin 'in teh zone' could give any force-user in history a hard time in sabers- but Obi-Wan, knowing all of his moves, styles, and most importantly of all, his psychological weaknesses, will win most times against him.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
I think its possible that "t2h zone" or "crystal clear anakin" may be one of the best(or perhaps 2nd to luke) in terms of swordsman ship abilities.

Note: this is my personal opinion so don't bash me for that.

Why would anyone bash you for that? It's a very reasonable opinion. I think that the only people who can stand against 'In teh zone' Anakin in lighsaber combat are Sidious, Yoda, Mace, and Luke. Oh, and Bane too, if only because of his orbalisks and his immense physical strength. And against any of them (aside from, maybe, Luke), Anakin would have a considerable chance of winning.

Originally posted by Faunus
Nicely put.

Thank you. 😄

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Why would anyone bash you for that? It's a very reasonable opinion. I think that the only people who can stand against 'In teh zone' Anakin in lighsaber combat are Sidious, Yoda, Mace, and Luke. Oh, and Bane too, if only because of his orbalisks and his immense physical strength. And against any of them (aside from, maybe, Luke), Anakin would have a considerable chance of winning.

I'd say all of them could take Anakin with relative impunity, if with a considerable amount of difficulty.