Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I still don't understand how it could. Without limbs you can't summon quite a # of force powers. I understand that midichlorians deal per cell but if you have a lot less cells than other force users, aren't you at a disadvantage? I don't see it being just a psychological issue
Anakin's potential wasn't hindered by the loss of his total forearm to Count Dooku's blade in Attack of the Clones, was he? While not a majority, that is a major loss of biomass, yet no one mused, stated, or implied that Anakin lost "15% of his potential" or whatnot. I'm sure there's merit to all aspects, but Lumiya's theory doesn't weigh very well against the theory of Sidious, who is more knowledgeable, powerful, and a much more accomplished dark side magus.
Yea but don't you think Sidious would say anything to make Vader feel better? Sidious telling Vader that he lost most of his potential would obviously not help Vader hunt down the Jedi. Furthermore, didn't GL in his Vanity Fair interview claim that Vader only became 80% of Sidious AFTER he was maimed rather than 200%, and that Luke would become what Vader was supposed to become.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Yea but don't you think Sidious would say anything to make Vader feel better?
No.
And he didn't tell Vader this, anyways. It wasn't some pep talk.
Sidious telling Vader that he lost most of his potential would obviously not help Vader hunt down the Jedi.
I'm sure Vader didn't need to be told. And even without his potential, he is still more powerful than any remaining Jedi.
Furthermore, didn't GL in his Vanity Fair interview claim that Vader only became 80% of Sidious AFTER he was maimed rather than 200%, and that Luke would become what Vader was supposed to become.
No one said Vader did become 200% of Sidious.
Originally posted by Gideon
No.And he didn't tell Vader this, anyways. It wasn't some pep talk.
I'm sure Vader didn't need to be told. And even without his potential, he is still more powerful than any remaining Jedi.
No one said Vader did become 200% of Sidious.
At his peak Anakin was supposed to become twice as powerful as Sidious, therefore 200%
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I still don't understand how it could. Without limbs you can't summon quite a # of force powers. I understand that midichlorians deal per cell but if you have a lot less cells than other force users, aren't you at a disadvantage? I don't see it being just a psychological issue
Yoda said it best, "size matters not". If Yoda as small and diminutive as he was, could be the most powerful Jedi of his generation and perhaps Star Wars history up to his life time, why should Vader who is much larger be hindered by the loss of parts of his limbs?
Volumetrically Vader was bigger and still had the highest midi count in the mythos. And according to Palpatine there was no one else (until Luke) with the potential to surpass or even rival Vader in the force.
Yes Vader was roughly 80% of Sidious as of the OT, but he was only in his ealry 40's, there's nothing to suggest Vader wouldn't have surpassed Sidious given time.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
There is, GL stating that Vader would be only 80% as powerful as Palpatine.
Did he say "he would only" with reference to Vader's death in OT or that he would never be capable of surpassing Palpatine?
You also have to take into account the time of the quote, before the introduction of midichlorians we would have had no reason to re-examine that quote. Given the nature of midi's there's no reason to believe Vader didn't have the capacity to surpass Palpatine.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
He wouldn't be able to surpass Palpatine because at his peak, as a result of his injuries, he would only be 80% of Palpatine.
Are those GL's words, that Vader at his absolute peak would only be 80% of Sidious?
Strange, I would have thought he only meant as of OT, and given the fact that he introduced midichlorians, it doesn't quite add up since Vader's midi count is sill significantly higher than Palpy's.
Lucas says in ROTS audio commentary about Vader that "hes lost a lot of power and a lot of feasibility to become more powerful than the emporer.."
so heres clearly lost a lot of potential, but a lot of feasibiltiy is not ALL feasibility... therefore there may have still been hope for Vader to surpass Sidious one day. He still wasnt even as old as Sidious was in Episode 1.
But im not quite sure what Lucas means by "hes lost a lot of power.." does he mean just Raw Power?? or Overall Power??
Also wuldnt being 80% of OT Sidious make him almost as powerful as ROTS Sidious??
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
im not sure how relevant A>B>C argument is here, as it all depends on how Mace's superconducting loop would work on Dooku, which iv already stated I dnt fully understand. all I know is it helped Mace to match Sidious in Speed and Power during their duel.
A fact that -might- help Dooku in a fight against Mace is the fact that Dooku seems to rely on the force and the dark side considerably less than either Anakin or Sidious (thus justifying his inferior speed, in Sidious' case, and strength, in Anakin's case), using only his natural physical abilities, his technical skill, and common force-enhanced attributes, reflexes, and such, without going over-the-top like Sidious and Yoda. However, Mace still has the advantage of youth, power, speed, and shatterpoint ability.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
dnt think Nick ever specifically said that. I think your referring to Mace being a level 9 saber duelist. although this may be a fair assumption on your half, it was never mentioned what level Dooku is. also Nick talks about how the fights were choreographed in the movies, and the only saber duel we see Mace in the movies is against Sidious when Maces superconducting loop put him on level with him.
No, you're incorrect- see, the only thing Mace's superconducting loop gave him was Sidious' speed (as supported by the novel). The technical skill, strength, tactics, and shatterpoint ability were all still Mace's- and besides, the superconducting loop generated by Vaapad is an intergal part of Mace's swordsmanship. Without it, he'd be simply a skilled user of an exceptionally fast and unpredictable style. Even without the advantage of Vaapad, however, Mace, still has a speed advantage over Dooku (thanks to his vastly superior conditioning)- and note that in the Clone Wars cartoon, Mace is depicted moving and striking as a blur in the Battle of Dantooine.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
dnt want to get wayyyy off topic here talking about Dooku, but iv never bought this argument. they seemed exactly equal in the duel. Dooku had many jedis after him, so didnt have time for a long battle with Mace. Not to mention the fight ended with Mace falling down a cliff unarmed. I find it highly unlikely that Dooku wuld be scared of Mace when if Dooku wanted to continue the battle he would have had the high ground and weapon advantage.
Admittedly, I haven't read Obsession in a very long time now- could you please give me a link to a site offering to download Obsession, or post a scan of it? Thanks.
Anyways. Do we all agree that the PT Jedi team has this?
Edit: And how long do you give Nebaris 'till he's back?
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
A fact that -might- help Dooku in a fight against Mace is the fact that Dooku seems to rely on the force and the dark side considerably less than either Anakin or Sidious (thus justifying his inferior speed, in Sidious' case, and strength, in Anakin's case), using only his natural physical abilities, his technical skill, and common force-enhanced attributes, reflexes, and such, without going over-the-top like Sidious and Yoda.
Dooku has basically dedicated his decades of training to perfecting his duelling skills and his connection to and mastery over the force. those are his main strengths and main advantages over all opponents except Yoda and Sidious.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
However, Mace still has the advantage of youth, power, speed, and shatterpoint ability.
I dnt think Mace has any Power advantage over Dooku. Dooku was very powerful and very strong in the force. Yoda's statments confirm so. He says Dooku was the strongest and most knowledgeable in the force out of all the Students of the Jedi. he says this in Dark Rendezvous.. also the ROTS novel says Dooku was one of the most powerful jedis in the whole 25000 year history of the jedi order, and an even more powerful sith lord.
also you may be underestimating Dookus speed. hes shown to be quite fast in the movies, and can handle Greivous's onslaught of 20 strikes per second, and is fast enough to hold his own for against yoda(for a while at least.)
as for youth Dooku is said to be physically half his age. Of course Mace may beat Dooku or Anakin or Vader in a fight due to Vapaads superconducting loop, and its advantage over Darksiders... im not denying that. though im not sure exactly how that works or how it would specifically work on Dooku.
but that doesnt necessarily make him more Powerful than Dooku. For example he may not fair any better in a fight against say Yoda than Dooku did.
Dooku actually took out Sora Bulq a lot more easily than Mace did. and I doubt Mace could take Obi1 or Ventress as easily as Dooku did either. (i.e. a simple flick of the wrist, or just by rasing a finger!!!)
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
and note that in the Clone Wars cartoon, Mace is depicted moving and striking as a blur in the Battle of Dantooine.
yeah Asajj Ventress was also depicted as a blur when she was dodging attacks of those bounty hunters/trained killers to impress dooku.
she also took out a load of them, and later a whole load of clone troopers just using the force. and she splits up a whole lot of fire and walks through it using the force as well.. so i personally wuldnt use the clone war cartoons for comparisons of speed or force power.
neway yes I agree the PT heroes win this fight. Anakin and Obi-Wan were exceptional as a team, and became legends during the clone wars. Anakins Raw Power with Obi-1s calm and defensive approach should take this. unless either Revan or Malak have exceptional mastery over the force which may prove troublesome for Obi1..
and whats your take on how powerful Darth Vader in the suit is. cause thats what were discussing at the moment, and its always seemed to have been a bit of a mystery to me!
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Dooku has basically dedicated his decades of training to perfecting his duelling skills and his connection to and mastery over the force. those are his main strengths and main advantages over all opponents except Yoda and Sidious.
Obviously so, but when in combat, he doesn't draw on the force quite as heavily as Yoda, Sidious, Mace, or Anakin, for that matter- sure, he uses it to compensate for his being an old man, but for him, it's only secondary to his technical skill. He doesn't use force-enhanced speed, strength, or agility nearly as much as the above mentioned four- but he makes up for it by being arguably the most refined, well-practiced, and technically skilled lightsaber duelists in the Prequels.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I dnt think Mace has any Power advantage over Dooku. Dooku was very powerful and very strong in the force. Yoda's statments confirm so. He says Dooku was the strongest and most knowledgeable in the force out of all the Students of the Jedi. he says this in Dark Rendezvous.. also the ROTS novel says Dooku was one of the most powerful jedis in the whole 25000 year history of the jedi order, and an even more powerful sith lord.
Sorry, I misspoke. I didn't mean raw power, mastery, or something like that, but rather about his physical strength- when he, once again, outclasses Dooku. He's more built, and had- as Faunus noted- displayed the ability to go toe-to-toe with Kar Vastor, an immensely powerful and fast adversary, and beat him to the ground.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
also you may be underestimating Dookus speed. hes shown to be quite fast in the movies, and can handle Greivous's onslaught of 20 strikes per second, and is fast enough to hold his own for against yoda(for a while at least.)
I don't think Dooku is slow- on the contrary, I think he's rather fast in bladework, but he simply isn't exceptionally fast. His style of fighting (not just Makashi... his entire way of fighting) doesn't rely on it as much- yes, the ability to go toe-to-toe with Yoda is highly impressive, but according to the novel, Yoda simply evaded most of his strikes, and Yoda still dominated the duel, forced him back, and eventually caused him to escape- he also defeated Dooku later on Vjun.
As for your point about the movie, while Dooku is 'fast', he doesn't appear quite as fast as the speeds displayed in Yoda vs. Sidious, Anakin vs. Obi-Wan, and Grievous vs. Obi-Wan- but other than the above mentioned few, he's as fast as anyone.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
as for youth Dooku is said to be physically half his age. Of course Mace may beat Dooku or Anakin or Vader in a fight due to Vapaads superconducting loop, and its advantage over Darksiders... im not denying that. though im not sure exactly how that works or how it would specifically work on Dooku.
We can't really be sure, but it'll undoubtedly provide some advantage.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
but that doesnt necessarily make him more Powerful than Dooku. For example he may not fair any better in a fight against say Yoda than Dooku did.
That's arguably true, but let me remind you that Mace is more mobile, agile, and quick than Dooku, if not as refined or technically skilled- while Yoda will probably defeat him, his style of fighting is better suited to counter Yoda's whirlwind of destruction.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Dooku actually took out Sora Bulq a lot more easily than Mace did. and I doubt Mace could take Obi1 or Ventress as easily as Dooku did either. (i.e. a simple flick of the wrist, or just by rasing a finger!!!)
Was Mace going all-out in his fight against Sora? And these are force-attacks- Mace had displayed considerable skill in Telekinesis, as displayed in Shatterpoint and force-crushing Grievous (who is made of an exceptionally strong substance), and Dooku's lightning will be irrelevant in this fight, seeing as Mace was capable of holding off (despite being gradually overwhelmed) by Sidious' lightning- and Sidious' lightning is really leaps and bounds above Dooku's.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
yeah Asajj Ventress was also depicted as a blur when she was dodging attacks of those bounty hunters/trained killers to impress dooku.she also took out a load of them, and later a whole load of clone troopers just using the force. and she splits up a whole lot of fire and walks through it using the force as well.. so i personally wuldnt use the clone war cartoons for comparisons of speed or force power.
Point is taken.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
neway yes I agree the PT heroes win this fight. Anakin and Obi-Wan were exceptional as a team, and became legends during the clone wars. Anakins Raw Power with Obi-1s calm and defensive approach should take this. unless either Revan or Malak have exceptional mastery over the force which may prove troublesome for Obi1..
😄
Though, force mastery will be rather irrelevant since this is a pure lightsaber match.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
and whats your take on how powerful Darth Vader in the suit is. cause thats what were discussing at the moment, and its always seemed to have been a bit of a mystery to me!
I think of Vader as an exceptionally powerful Sith Lord, particularly in his apt abilities with Telekinesis (such as crushing a facility constructed out of durasteel via simply getting pissed off). About his potential? According to Sidious, it was, indeed, simply a psychological barrier. And there is a quote in Death Star suggesting that Vader would, someday, be the most powerful Sith Lord in history, indicating that he certainly had the potential to surpass Sidious (who is the most powerful Sith Lord of all time).
Now then, his lightsaber skills- while no doubt impressive- are only useful against a select type of foes. When he engages in combat with people who are faster and more mobile than him- Grievous, for example- he would most likely get overwhelmed. Maul also dominated him in their duel due to his agility and speed- Vader, in his combat, needs a little more than pure lightsaber skills to overcome his opponents. He needs improvisation, the force, and tactical skills in order to overcome his foes- his lightsaber technique, while useful, is only secondary to the three traits above.