Revan and Malak vs. Anakin and Obi-Wan

... continued

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
3. I've gathered information, and I've made the conclusion that Vader will have to get creative and smart to defeat Mace Windu- of course it's my opinion, and you can debate against this, most certainly. However- from what I've seen, Mace can resist Vader long enough (he's helpless before Vader in a force fight- sure, he'll lose in a prolonged fight, but it's not gonna be very prolonged) in order to close the gap between them. The best way for Vader to win would be to crush Mace with some sort of object, or block his path, or something along the lines of that. He can't take him in an open fight, from what I've seen.

Actually, i do see vader or mace taking it in an open fight, but once again it depends on the circumstances and situation, we can only conclude what they might do.

Vader might disarm mace and crush him, hell mace might do the same or topple a large object over vader. I don't see why vader can't take him in an open fight if he can already shatter through a jedi's defence and treat him like a ragdoll but then again, i am NOT saying it is easy for vader or anything.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
4. I meant that if they engage in a lightsaber duel, Vader would probably have to sacrifice portions of his body- like one of his arms- in order to somehow get away from Windu and hold him off in a force fight. Do you not agree? It's Vader best chance- along with simply breaking Windu's neck (unlikely)- to somehow get away in a lightsaber duel.

Vader was shown to be able to hold his saber in a stance and at the same time reach out with the force to hurl objects at the dark woman.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
You've yet to display how Vader will be naturally awed by Windu's lightsaber skills. Of course this fight can go either way, really- I can certainly imagine a situation with Vader coming on top. However, I think Mace will take this more times than not. [/B]

You make it sound as if windus saber form is completely alien to vader. But i disagree, i think vader can take this as many times as mace can take the battle.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Don't take it that i seem angry at you, i just happen to be quite sarcastic when i debate sometimes.😱

Nah, maybe I'm over-paranoid about people that I respect being somewhat sarcastic/pissed. It's just that I really don't like to engage in flaming matches. Unless it's absolutely necessary.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
If anything offends you don't take it to the heart and just let me know ok?

I apologize for being paranoid. Don't be hard on yourself.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Oh right so because he does not mention mace's vaapad it means he does not know mace windu uses vaapad.

Should i give you a round of applause for that logic?

Yes, you should give me a round of applause for that logic. 😄

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Anakin actually SAW mace windu in action, so how can he not know how dangerous mace is if he were to face him?

He saw Mace Windu in action, deflecting blaster bolts and decimating droids. Now then- Anakin, by AotC, is neither overly analytical, experienced, or knowledgable- sure, he might recognize Windu's movements as unorthodox- but he isn't gonna go "Z0mg Windu uses Vaapad!", because there is no indication that Anakin knows what forms Windu uses. Nor is it- anywhere- claimed that the masses knew of Windu's lightsaber form, other than a select few. People may know that Mace created an exceptionally lethal lightsaber form and was hailed as a master swordsman- but I seriously doubt nigh anyone other than Jedi close to Mace- like Yoda, Dooku (formerly), and Obi-Wan are aware of the specifics of said lightsaber form.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
I guess you never watched attack of the clones when they FOUGHT along side each other, oh right anakin sure does not know of mace windus saber dueling capabilities despite seeing him in action.

Yes, I watched it. Great movie, btw. Hugely underrated. (That was... random.)

He knows that Windu is an exceptionally lethal lightsaber combatant who invented a new form. He doesn't know the specifics of said lightsaber form, nor did he ever see Windu in a lightsaber duel. The end.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Oh right! Vader would still want to fight mace windu DESPITE the fact that vader clearly knows that his superior(mr almighty sidious) got his ass whopped by windus vaapad and shatterpoint.

I'll concede that he was aware that they engaged in a lightsaber duel. But he -doesn't- know that he got his 'ass whooped' by Vaapad and Shatterpoint, seeing as he knows the specifics of neither ability- in fact, he could possibly theorize that Mace got lucky somehow.

And besides, Anakin doesn't know jackshit about Sidious' -lightsaber- abilities. He knows he had a lightaber- other than that, nothing. Of course Sidious is superior to Vader in lightsaber combat, but there's no indication that Vader ever sparred with him. Vader was afraid of Sidious because of Sidious' superior command of the dark side and his lightning abilities- which can easily destroy Vader's suit. He also tooled him by shutting off his armor. Nowhere is it mentioned that Vader was aware of Sidious' capacities with a lightsaber.

He knows he slaughtered three Jedi Masters. But he doesn't know if it was with ease- and given Anakin's belief in his own extreme superiority (as displayed by the RotS novel), he more than likely thinks he can destroy those Jedi Masters.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
And its clearly hysterically funny that you claim you are not underestimating vader which you are clearly doing by even wanting to instigate this debate in the first place.

Huh? Sorry?

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Ah yes anakin never heard of vaapad despite seeing windu utilising it in action.

*Sigh*. Anakin isn't a master combatant, a seasoned Jedi, or a knowledgable swordsman by AotC- he saw Windu using a lethal, unorthdox style. Which is what Vaapad is, practically, if you don't count in its superconducting loop and Windu's Shatterpoint skills- two skills that Anakin is entirely unaware of.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
LOL you mean you never watched revenge of the sith where windu puts [b]darth fcuking sidious on his ass in a saber duel and vader clearly acknowledging that sidious is his superior in lightsaber dueling capabilities and the force?[/B]

In the force? Most certainly. And while Sidious is also quite cleanly superior in lightsaber, Vader never said that Sidious is greater than him in this area- unless you can provide a quote.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Right, vader doesn't know he is going to lose despite the fact that his superior master already got his ass badly beaten by mace windus lightstick. Good logic and great way of being so irrational.

He knows Sidious lost to Mace and he also knows Sidious slaughtered three Jedi Masters who were considered by Shaak Ti to be exceptionally skilled, as she told him. He thinks he's the best Jedi in the order, and he also thinks that he commands the power of 10 Jedi Masters (I believe something like that is in the RotS novel)- in other words, he holds himself superior to Mace Windu. And until you can provide a quote displaying how Vader is aware of Sidious' superior lightsaber skills... well, this argument is quite irrelevant.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
If vader is so mystified then why does he regard sidious as his clear superior?

Vader clearly knows that sidious is beatable.

Oh and i almost forgot to bring this point up. I think its pretty obvious that vader by the OT knew that sidious got into a fight with mace windu and got his ass handed in the process as by RODV and later on he already knew that sidious was merely a fartbag using vader like a whore so how exactly by then he would still think sidious is "innocent"?

Point conceded. But it still stands that Vader was unaware of Sidious' skills with the lightsaber.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
I bet sidious didn't even lose his virginity as the dark side energies deformed his cock.

That's quite disturbing.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
And who ever said vader would dominate mace in the force? I sure as hell never made that claim.

Again, whos saying vader "rapes" mace in the force?

You implied it- Vader would have to be firmly superior in the force category in order to dominate Mace long enough for Mace to be incapable of closing the distance between them with his rather incredible speed (as displayed within Shatterpoint- he's quite fast, even without the aid of Vaapad).

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Ah yes "resist". Whats there to say that vader couldn't simply break through his force defense as bane did to qoordis because of his higher level of power in the force?

Because the difference between Bane and Qordis isn't the difference between Vader and Mace? How about that?

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Again vice versa is likely which is why i made it clear that it depends on the circumstances.

Certainly.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
You my friend are making it sound that mace WILL beat vader in a fight.

Hell this is getting inconclusive on who would win.

I'll make my opinion very clear- if they engage on flat, unprovoking circumstances, and Vader simply tries to nail Mace with a force crush, force choke, or something along the lines of that, Mace is going to win. He can resist Vader long enough to close the distance between them and defeat him in a lightsaber duel- which shouldn't be very difficult for him, as displayed by the fact that he defeated Sidious- Vader's obvious superior- in lightsaber in combat. Sure, it was extremely difficult and he only won virtue of Vaapad and Shatterpoint abilities, but nevertheless- if he can defeat Sidious in a minute and a half of dueling, he would defeat Vader rather quickly in a lightsaber duel. I'd give it between 30 seconds and one minute. Sounds fair enough?

However, if Vader is creative, smart, and manages to use the environment to his advantage, I can certainly see him winning.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
The only reason i argued is because you made vader look stupid by wanting to fight an opponent in a saber duel where he clearly knows he will lose(thats because you never heard of battle precognition where it alerts vader of mace superior saber abilities).

This is a ridiculous assertion. Battle precognition/Jedi Precognition enables one to see an attack with the force, or 'feel' it, which allows Jedi to keep up with each other- it, in no way, alerts someone that someone else is superior to them in a lightsaber skills. One can't stand before somebody else, use Precog, and by that go "That guy is more skilled than me in lightsaber combat!". It makes no sense.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Alright sorry i accused you.
Its just my nature to be aggressive and sarcastic when i debate, but sorry anyways.

Don't worry about it, dewd.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Actually, i do see vader or mace taking it in an open fight, but once again it depends on the circumstances and situation, we can only conclude what they [b]might do.[/B]

Which is what a debate is all about. We try to- hypothetically- think what a character may do.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Vader might disarm mace and crush him, hell mace might do the same or topple a large object over vader. I don't see why vader can't take him in an open fight if he can already shatter through a jedi's defence and treat him like a ragdoll but then again, i am NOT saying it is easy for vader or anything.

Because Vader didn't once defeat a Jedi of Mace's caliber. If he can smash through Vader's force defenses, he wins- but Mace is both creative (as displayed by how he smashed a STAP on top of Grievous), strong in the force (decimation of armies of droids with the force), and fast (speeds displayed in RotS Novel, Shatterpoint, and CW Cartoon), so I hardly think that Vader is going to crush Mace with the force before Mace closes the distance between them and defeats him in a lightsaber duel. Unles Vader uses his brain and the environment.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
The thing is "might need to", not "probably" as vader is still a very formidable saber duelist and would hold his ground for a while at least which would alert him he is going to lose which allows him to reach out with the force.

Vader was shown to be able to hold his saber in a stance and at the same time reach out with the force to hurl objects at the dark woman.

Lol, the Dark Woman isn't nearly as fast or as powerful as Mace Windu. If they engage in a lightsaber duel, Vader will really have to think hard on how to avoid Mace or run away from him, somehow, seeing as Mace is faster, just as technically skilled, has Shatterpoint, and has access to Vader's force-enhanced strength thanks to Vaapad- he holds all the cards. It's very difficult for me to imagine a situation when Vader somehow escapes from Mace if they engage in a lightsaber duel.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Right, the proof is in AOTC when anakin fights along side mace windu and views him in action.

I've already addressed this.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
You make it sound as if windus saber form is completely alien to vader. But i disagree, i think vader can take this as many times as mace can take the battle.

I don't. I think I've given a decent enough job of explaining why- you're entitled to your opinion.

Also- if you think Vader can take this fight as many times as Windu, it seems like you believe that Sidious- Vader's considerable superior in tactics, intelligent, force mastery, and lightsaber combat- will almost certainly take a rematch with Windu. Do you really believe that?

I don't have time to respond so i will do so maybe tomorrow. Kudos!

Take your time, dewd. Take your time.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

There's even a possibility that Sidious never told Vader that he actually engaged in a lightsaber duel with Mace, seeing as he wants to keep the whole "I was helpless and he tried to kill me!" facade to Vader. Again- tell me why you think he would necessarily be aware of Windu's defeat of Sidious in lightsaber duel- for all he knew, Sidious just attempted to resist using lightning.

Vader did most likely knew that Mace beat his master in a saber because there were the 3 dead jedi bodies in the office all of which would naturally have lightsaber wounds so logically Sidious was using his lightsaber. So by the way your explaining Vader would think, oh dead jedi bodies with lightsabers wounds....hey there's my master on the ground using force lightning on Mace near a big broken window." Doesn't cut it I'm afraid.

If Vader was to know that Sidious actually tried to resist Mace with a lightsaber duel, it would both destroy the act of Sidious' innocence

and make him suddenly seem beatable. Sidious wouldn't want that.

BTW u like the new avatar?

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Vader did most likely knew that Mace beat his master in a saber because there were the 3 dead jedi bodies in the office all of which would naturally have lightsaber wounds so logically Sidious was using his lightsaber. So by the way your explaining Vader would think, oh dead jedi bodies with lightsabers wounds....hey there's my master on the ground using force lightning on Mace near a big broken window." Doesn't cut it I'm afraid.

Hardly, the jedi threaten him first, the jedi had the numbers advantage so Sidious tried to defend himself with his saber,lost it,used lightning and Windu pwnded him using his saber. So now he is "to weak" and Mace still wants to kill him ("against the jedi way"😉

Yet after being struck for several seconds by his own lightning and injuring himself he still has plenty of power to zapp windu out the window. It is your opinion that Sidious wouldn't want Vader to think that he is beatable. I can easily counter that just by saying Sidious wants Vader to think that he is not invincible,that way when Vader thinks he learned all he could from his master he could try and kill him as is the way of the sith.

BTW u like the new avatar?

I have conceded to most of things you listed in your post.

And yeah. Nice avatar.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Take your time, dewd. Take your time.

It was fun anyways 🙂 Laters.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Meh well its just a hypothetical debate and seeing your debating skills which is pretty good, i think i'll just let you have the win(though i still don't agree with some of your points).

It was fun anyways 🙂 Laters.

😄

And can you please answer my question- if you think that a fight between Vader and Mace can go either way, it's logical for you to assume that Vader's superior master can almost certainly defeat Mace in a rematch. Do you really think that?

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Vader did most likely knew that Mace beat his master in a saber because there were the 3 dead jedi bodies in the office all of which would naturally have lightsaber wounds so logically Sidious was using his lightsaber.

You're correct in that Darth Vader was aware that Windu and Palpatine engaged in a lightsaber duel; where you're wrong is that Death Star confirms that Vader was of the suspicion that Palpatine was "in control the entire time" and absorbed the malevolent energies and gruesome punishment to force Anakin's hand.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
if you think that a fight between Vader and Mace can go either way, it's logical for you to assume that Vader's superior master can almost certainly defeat Mace in a rematch.

It's not logical. Vader isn't a downgraded Sidious, he's his own unique entity with his own unique fighting style.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

Mace isn't helpless in a force fight, and will pretty much own Vader when it comes to pure lightsaber combat-

well I think Vader wuld pretty much own Mace in a pure Force fight. not that Mace is helpless, and wuldnt be able to fight back. but just that Vaders significantly better in that department. I dnt see any reason why Vader can not do to Mace what Vastor did to him.

but since Mace would pretty much own Vader in a lightsaber duel, ill agree a fight between the 2 would be very intersting, and could go either way under different circumstances.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Excellent point, though Sidious had already decimated numbers like that with his force lightning.

yes but not multiple jedis with lightsabers. we have already seen lightsabers can deflect lightning, and jeid can even focus it towards their lightsabers.. Sidious clearly HAD TO engage the 4 of them in lightsaber combat.

Originally posted by Faunus
A fight between Yoda and Sidious could go either way, therefore Mace should lose to Sidious every single time. Hm.

It's not logical. Vader isn't a downgraded Sidious, he's his own unique entity with his own unique fighting style.

Faunus, I said that because Vader is less powerful than Sidious in every single category. His force powers are inferior, he's slower, his lightsaber skills are inferior... it goes on.

Also note, I'm just questioning Arnold. I don't think Sidious will necessarily take a rematch- on the contrary, I think it can certainly go either way, the same as a Sidious vs. Yoda rematch.

When was the last time Sidious engaged in a lightsaber duel outside of ROTS? I'd like to think that Vader being someone who honed his skills to the maximum could POSSIBLY take say an ROTJ Sidious in a straight up saber duel.

-As for Anakin knowing of Mace Windu's style - Vader although ROTS and AOTC don't show it, is a tactical genius, and him being someone who let his skills show through combat rather then force feats at the time WOULD likely know about Vaapad and Mace's mastery, to suggest that he wouldn't is a bit silly - considering everyone on the council knew of Mace's Vaapad ability as Obi Wan in the ROTS novel states it like its common knowledge. Not to mention he tells people all the time about it -- look at Shatterpoint alone he tells:

Palpatine
Nick Rotsu
Kar Vastor
Everyone watching the Kar and Mace's first fight.

Really, I don't think its that big of a secret. Not to mention Dark Lord states Vader has a working knowledge of ALL forms of combat, meaning he at least and I mean at least knows of Vaapad.

- As for the illogical Vader Sidious comparison, Sidious lost a straight Lightsaber duel, no use of his vastly superior force powers which would have crushed Windu. And the lightsaber duel in itself is suspect - as Sidious just "happens" to fall right as Anakin enters the room, which Mace notes that Sidious completly trusted in Vader and had zero fear of Windu at all. I mean really the dude killed three of the best swordsmen the order has produced in seconds before Mace could even react and yet Windu is able to beat him alone...ah huh. Finally even Vader thinks the duel was suspect as the Death Star novel notes.

I have disproved- or at least made reference- to most of your points in my arguments against Arnold (Schwarznegger). I don't feel a need to respost them at the moment.

Other then- Anakin may indeed be aware of Vaapad's existence. But it's finer details? Nu-huh. Mace Windu didn't like Anakin. ****, he didn't even think Anakin was the Chosen One. He's not going to engage him in banter regarding his lightsaber style.

Oh, and the circumstances of Mace's victory over Sidious can be explained multiple ways. One is that he- as you imply- purposefully let Mace win the duel. There's plenty of evidence pointing to that conclusion- although, not enough to decisively state this. The other is the consensus among this forums, and the one I use in my debates- Sidious- while arguably the overall superior swordsman, seeing as he stalemated Yoda who Windu acknowledged was his superior in lightsaber combat- Windu had two distinct advantages. Vaapad and Shatterpoint. Vaapad gave Windu the advantage of being able to counter Sidious' otherwise superior speed, fend him off, and benefit from his rage and hatred- Sidious' foremost advantage in any lightsaber duel is thereby negated. However, one could argue that Yoda was also as fast in his bladework as Sidious- but they still only stalemated. Then we move to the shatterpoint ability- Mace managed to, at the percise moment- despite being put on the defensive- disarm Sidious. A fluke? Hardly. Mace wouldn't defeat Sidious if he lacked his shatterpoint ability and his Vaapad was merely an orthodox fighting style- but thanks to these two advantages- which distinguish him, particularly in duels against darksiders- he managed to get the upper hand.

Although, I am of the belief that a duel between Sidious and Mace could go either way. But I'm inclined to say that Mace won that particular fight genuinely- although Sidious could have defeated him in the force fight.

There isn't any indication of Sidious not training with a lightsaber after RotS- however, there's no proof that he did. It's open to debate. However- Sidious, as of RotS, would crush Vader in a lightsaber duel virtue of his vastly superior speed, agility, and force attunement. All three skills that he would logically retain in RotJ, as his force prowess only increased. While Vader isn't that far behind Sidious in technical skill- if there is indeed any difference between them- Sidious is a considerably more effective lightsaber duelist on all fronts than Maul, a being who managed to outclass Vader in a pure lightsaber duel.

I dnt see any reason why Vader can not do to Mace what Vastor did to him.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
😄

And can you please answer my question- if you think that a fight between Vader and Mace can go either way, it's logical for you to assume that Vader's superior master can almost certainly defeat Mace in a rematch. Do you really think that?

If this is ROTJ sidious or worse DE sidious then its very likely those 2 incarnations will win.

Originally posted by Gideon
where you're wrong is that Death Star confirms that Vader was of the suspicion that Palpatine was "in control the entire time" and absorbed the malevolent energies and gruesome punishment to force Anakin's hand.

I really got to read that novel

So wait, your argument as to why Vader wouldn't crush Mace flat out in a force fight is because of the CWC crap? I still don't accept that shit as the truth , as you claimed it was an simple inconsistency in force power that both we and Vader share, which is flat out false given that fact that your "inconsistecies" for Vader were:

Luke beating him in a fit of rage, and why he couldn't stop it - as you admitted he was emotionally conflicted and was truley surpised by Lukes power, what you failed to even acknowledge is what I posted: Luke in the courtship of princess Leia notes after being trapped up in the Force by one of the witches, that Vader could have easily done the same to him in ROTJ if he wanted too.

Maul - as already said Vader could have destroyed him and the prophets and Allankles said it best:

Originally posted by Allankles
It wasn't about Maul's speed but Vader willfully choosing not to take advantage of his greater force mastery. In that story, the prophets and Maul claim that Vader isn't worthy that his history as Jedi undermine his status as Sith. So Vader - who was prepared to destroy the lot of them with the dark side - decides to take the prophet's challenge which is a straight duel with Maul.

Those are the only "inconsistencies" that you claim exist, nd they are very much not inconsistent with Vaders TFU portrayal.

With Mace, there is no explaining the inconsistencies, Mace was noted in Shatterpoint to already be not that spectacular in the force. The CWC BS is not really accurate of Mace's force-power, and thus should not be used in debate like it is trying to pedaled of as here.

Finally your other argument as for why Vader wouldn't overwhelm him is an unfounded accusation that Mace will simply resist it, let me remind you that when Kar Vastor someone who is weaker in the force then Vader, wanted to force grip and hurl Mace Windu: he did, and then the second time he used the force Mace's only counter was to barely ground the grip, now if Vastpr an inferior to Vader managed to bypass Windu's force shield and overwhelm him, pray tell how he will stop Vader?

Other then- Anakin may indeed be aware of Vaapad's existence. But it's finer details? Nu-huh. Mace Windu didn't like Anakin. ****, he didn't even think Anakin was the Chosen One. He's not going to engage him in banter regarding his lightsaber style.

Um no...
At the end of Shatterpoint he notes in his journal that he'd be willingly to sacrifice everything so the chosen one Anakin Skywalker can live and fulfill his destiny

And still: RODV states Vader has a working knowledge of all forms of combat, that includes Vaapad.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Again which incarnation of sidious? If it is ROTS sidious, then he would need to use the force inorder to defeat mace.

If this is ROTJ sidious or worse DE sidious then its very likely those 2 incarnations will win.

I'd give him a chance in a lightsaber duel, too- Sidious was dominating the fight, and was forcing Mace- an offensive person- on the defensive more often than not. While he's certainly not guaranteed victory in a lightsaber duel, you shouldn't rule him out. He has a shot.

RotJ Sidious... hmm. I suppose he's basically RotS Sidious with better force power. He should probably win- Mace was already getting overwhelmed by Sidious' lightning assault in RotS. His superior incarnation will do much worse- Mace is done for.

DE Sidious. In my opinion, he should take both a force fight and a lightsaber duel. I expect Mace will give him a 'fight' in the lightsaber duel- but he's going down.

That's my opinion. I'd love to see a Mace vs. Sidious rematch... it can certainly go either way.

Magnet. First of all, I'm tired of your "Lol cartoon isn't canon!!!11!!" stance. People have already prove to you that it's real- GL even supports it and personally approved it.

Vaapad takes a certain amount of extreme practice- and mastery of most, if not all of the forms in order to attain some mastery in it. Vader never displayed any interest it- one has to train extensively if they wish to even begin mastery of Vaapad, the most complex, deadly, and advanced form. It's also plausible that he learned some Juyo moves, rather than Vaapad.