Originally posted by Gideon
Clone Wars is canon
but the only fair way to compare CWC Mace to Vader in terms of Force feats would be if we saw Vader in those cartoons as well, which we obviously will not.
Originally posted by Gideon
and George Lucas himself commented that the power of the Jedi depicted in that cartoon is how he imagines "real" Jedi would be like.
Originally posted by Gideon
Mace is top tier as a combatant according to numerous sources and is one of the greatest and most accomplished swordsmen in history.
no ones denying this, and I think everyone here has agreed that Mace would beat Vader in a straight up lightsaber duel.(no force attacks involved)
Originally posted by Faunus
Ignoring his lightsaber showings, the Force feats beginning at 3:05 pretty much speak for themselves. A 'hadoken' that breaks wood doesn't really compare to a sliding Force-crush that implodes eight super-battle droids, and Vader's Force-wave looks like a breeze compared to Windu's opening one.
BTW Vaders Force attcaks in TFU looked Very Powerful to me.. and I can easily see that kind of Power crushing many droids at once.
also we see Vader Force choking a Jedi. we have yet to see Mace dominate a jedi/dark jedi just using the Force, like weve seen Dooku do many times(to other quite powerful force users), and Vader in TFU.
Originally posted by RocasAtoll
He kills Vastor with the force. That's better than Vader's and Dooku's raping of Jedis trained for diplomacy and not war.
Huh? Sorry, but although I argued against Vader in this argument, this is... a bit ridiculous. Anakin was trained for 'diplomacy', right? So was Obi-Wan? Two people who Dooku curbstomped with the force at various points in his career. Asajj Ventress, what about her? I suppose she was meant to be a civil diplomat to the offices of Grand Master Yoda? Another person who Dooku tooled with the force.
Vader. Hmm... Roan Shyrne, you know the name? A combat-oriented Jedi who Vader killed with the force. Not to mention his various force-feats, like ripping a bridge to pieces and force-choking people lightyears away.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
AC, please post a rebuttal of my points too, okay?
Your both saying nearly the exact same things, theres no point in doing both I just chose Fanus's cause the BS level was much higher in his post. Using the Clone Wars Cartoon...lame.
I'm actually kinda tired of this argument, I've admitted in multiple instances that Vader would lose a saber duel to Mace, but its silly to think that Vader will just get diced in a few seconds by Mace's 1337 speed, thats simply straight up bukkake, as I've pointed out.
However Vader would smash him in a force fight, he's better then Vastor who molested Windu like he was a small child. Its simply illogical to say that Vader WOULDN'T beat Mace with the force.
Originally posted by Chick Magnet
Your both saying nearly the exact same things, theres no point in doing both I just chose Fanus's cause the BS level was much higher in his post. Using the Clone Wars Cartoon...lame.
Fair 'nuff. But, as Gideon had noted, the Clone Wars Cartoon is very much canon (and was overseen by Lucas himself), and represents his original vision for Jedi. It's just as fair as you using the Force Unleashed in your argument, because it represents characters using the force in an extreme, 'unleashed' manner that exaggerrates their abilities- the similarities between the Cartoon and the Force Unleashed, in terms of their relevancy on arguments, is staggering. Faunus' argument was very much fair.
Originally posted by Chick Magnet
I'm actually kinda tired of this argument, I've admitted in multiple instances that Vader would lose a saber duel to Mace, but its silly to think that Vader will just get diced in a few seconds by Mace's 1337 speed, thats simply straight up bukkake, as I've pointed out.
I understand you're getting tired of the argument. But just to say- I don't think Vader will be "z0MG WTFpwned!" in three seconds- he'd put up a 'fight', but he has no chance- Mace simply holds all of the cards. He's faster, more agile, has the advantage of Vaapad, and has his shatterpoint ability- Vader was outclassed by a lesser opponent before (Maul), and would, most likely, lose to Mace in a fight ranging between the 30 seconds and the minute and a half fight. 'Decent', but not really a long fight.
Originally posted by Chick Magnet
However Vader would smash him in a force fight, he's better then Vastor who molested Windu like he was a small child. Its simply illogical to say that Vader WOULDN'T beat Mace with the force.
1. You really do want me to have nightmares, right? Molseted Windu... ugh. Like someone could molest Samuel Jackson.
2. Vader has the edge in a force fight, but as Faunus and I have pointed out, it's not exactly a 'big' edge.
Oh, and you have yet to explain how come you think Vader could defeat Sidious in a lightsaber duel, seeing as Sidious is far faster and more mobile than Vader.
Completely off-topic: Although I don't live in the U.S, I'm an Obama supporter too.
Originally posted by ACstyles
I'm actually kinda tired of this argument, I've admitted in multiple instances that Vader would lose a saber duel to Mace, but its silly to think that Vader will just get diced in a few seconds by Mace's 1337 speed, thats simply straight up bukkake, as I've pointed out
The problem is that you've implied that a lightsaber duel would be close between them and it wouldn't; Windu floored Palpatine, and Sidious is a far more potent Force user and duelist than suited-Vader. The shatterpoint charism and the utilities of Vaapad will work very well against Vader, and he would logically go down quicker than his master, who is stronger than he is in every way but physically.
Originally posted by Gideon
The problem is that you've implied that a lightsaber duel would be close between them and it wouldn't; Windu floored Palpatine, and Sidious is a far more potent Force user and duelist than suited-Vader. The shatterpoint charism and the utilities of Vaapad will work very well against Vader, and he would logically go down quicker than his master, who is stronger than he is in every way but physically.
Use my new name **** bucket...I'm saying it'll be long enough for Vader to see that he can't win it and move to using the force.
This is the definition of circle argument jeez.
air 'nuff. But, as Gideon had noted, the Clone Wars Cartoon is very much canon (and was overseen by Lucas himself), and represents his original vision for Jedi. It's just as fair as you using the Force Unleashed in your argument, because it represents characters using the force in an extreme, 'unleashed' manner that exaggerrates their abilities- the similarities between the Cartoon and the Force Unleashed, in terms of their relevancy on arguments, is staggering. Faunus' argument was very much fair.
I'd be cool with it if it was Yoda or someone NOTED for their force talent, Mace Windu is no Yoda in the force, he's no Anakin, he's not even a Kar Vastor, and yet he can do all the shit he displayed in the CWC? Bull. Why didn't he do any of that shit ANY other time when his life depended on it? I'll answer for you: because he can't. In Shatterpoint he notes how he is hard pressed to multi task in the force while trying to save those Balawi kids, then he can't even lift the landcrawler up with the force. Inconsistency/10And I loved it in Shatterpoint, when Mace busted out those crazy force moves on Kar Vastor and beat the shi...Oh Wait...he didn't, or in AOTC when he used his crazy force wave to blow away all those little droids and save the da...Oh Wait...he didn't. Or...or...how bout in Shatterpoint when he used his powaz to save those kids by simply lifting the crawler out of the lav...Oh Wait...he didn't, just like um any other time ever. See the difference between you using The Clone Wars and me using The Force Unleashed as its being accepted in the canon that the displays they put on in that game are accurate displays of their abilities especially Vaders whose feats that I showed happened in cutscenes.
2. Vader has the edge in a force fight, but as Faunus and I have pointed out, it's not exactly a 'big' edge.
Its on you to PROVE that claim, as I've provided proof for my side with Vader outclassing Vastor whom outclassed Windu.
Yes, yes I did, by the wording Nick Rotsu gave who saw Kar Vastor obliterate Mace Windu in combat and who was a soldier in his army for years AND who was has been on the recieving end of a Vastor ass beating he gave this wording:"There was no doubt in Nick's mind that, were Kar Vastor pitted against Darth Vader, the feral Balawai renegade wouldn't stand a chance.
"Wouldn't stand a chance", that means he be beaten down in every possible way by Darth Vader
The Force was powerful in Vader; even the dim wattage of Nick's connection could feel that. It was far more powerful than it had been in Kar Vastor."
Note that this is the same man who tossed around Mace Windu like a toy:
"the Force whirled around him and Mace found himself wrenched off the ground, hurtling backwards through the air to slam against the tree...the whole tree shivered with impact...he managed to raise one gesture as though throwing a stone; Mace was whirled forward from the tree to crash against the skull of an astonished akk dog."
And this is the same man who is called by Mace's own admission:
Younger, faster, stronger, and more powerful." was someone Mace couldn't beat straight up on his best day and Nick knows this also.
So Kar Vastor despite being Younger, stronger, FASTER, and more powerful in the force then Mace Windu, "wouldn't stand a chance." against Darth Vader.
With that said, what is stopping Vader from destroying Mace with the force? Mace barely grounded Vastors force assualt and even in that case he couldn't completely stop it, how is he going to fair against someone who's stronger then Vastor with the force?
I'm gonna have to get used to that new avatar. 😐
Edit, cuz Magnet (if you so insist on using that name) posted directly the same time as I did:
Originally posted by Chick Magnet
Its on you to PROVE that claim, as I've provided proof for my side with Vader outclassing Vastor whom outclassed Windu.
I've always interpreted the quote regarding Mace being incapable of beating Kar Vastor as referring to hand-to-hand combat- if so, it's quite obivious that Vader, being physically stronger than almost any organic being in the Star Wars mythos will be able to curbstomp Vastor's ass in a hand-to-hand fight. But other than that- other than a handful of quotes and a few chapters, I hadn't read Shatterpoint (though I intend to read it fully in the near future), so I will stop arguing on this matter now.
Oh, and why didn't Vader "Uber force pwn!!11!!!" Maul? Why didn't he disable Luke effortlessly with the force? Inconsistency, much? It's the same thing as Mace. Both TFU and the Clone Wars depict a canonical- albeit exaggerrated- level of power for characters. You can't argue with Lucas, mate.
Futhermore, how will Vader get away from Mace fast enough to crush him with the force? Mace is considerably faster, and is no slouch in the force, either- Vader doesn't have the mobility and the speed to get away from Mace Windu in combat. If he makes the mistake of engaging Mace in a lightsaber duel, he's doomed.
Edit, cuz Magnet (if you so insist on using that name) posted directly the same time as I did:
Its cool I was kidding...
I've always interpreted the quote regarding Mace being incapable of beating Kar Vastor as referring to hand-to-hand combat- if so, it's quite obivious that Vader, being physically stronger than almost any organic being in the Star Wars mythos will be able to curbstomp Vastor's ass in a hand-to-hand fight. But other than that- other than a handful of quotes and a few chapters, I hadn't read Shatterpoint (though I intend to read it fully in the near future), so I will stop arguing on this matter now.
I've been waiting for this argument:
No, that quote happens at the start of their second fight where they're both using weapons. It was plainly talking about the two of them fighting straight up on any given sunday, Mace couldn't beat him. Flat out, no variables, never. So there goes that argument
Oh, and why didn't Vader "Uber force pwn!!11!!!" Maul?
And this one:
Um he could have. when the new Maul showed himself and Vader was questioning the Prophets they challenge him to fight Maul, however they go on to note his alternatives, they say that he could and I quote: "try to Just destroys us all now" then they say that he "Just might succeed." Meaning that Vader could have killed them all with the force and be done with the whole situation. Otherwise how in the hell would Vader whom they were so confident would fall to Maul be able to take not only Maul BUT Maul with a bunch of Prophets of the Dark Side? Vader could have beaten them with the force.
Why didn't he disable Luke effortlessly with the force? Inconsistency, much?
Luke notes in a later book after being captured by the witched of Dathromir with the force, that Vader could have done the same if he wanted to to Luke in ROTJ but was holding back.
Next.
It's the same thing as Mace. Both TFU and the Clone Wars depict a canonical- albeit exaggerrated- level of power for characters. You can't argue with Lucas, mate.
No its not the same as I said Vaders are backed up, Mace's aren't and thus his feats in the CWC are NOT CANON ie: bullshit.
Futhermore, how will Vader get away from Mace fast enough to crush him with the force? Mace is considerably faster, and is no slouch in the force, either- Vader doesn't have the mobility and the speed to get away from Mace Windu in combat. If he makes the mistake of engaging Mace in a lightsaber duel, he's doomed.
How many times have we seen Vader sacrfice his body to get in close and give a killing blow. He could do the same here, Mace doesn't know where stabbing will kill Vader, Vader knows where he can be stabbed and not die however. And when Vaders can simply push him abck with the force anyways, and proceed the battle as a force duel.
Originally posted by Chick MagnetUh-huh. What happened to Vader's 'hadoken' when he was getting 'outclassed', as you put it, by Maul? By the Jedi in Purge? There were three at the end, and together they stomped his sorry ass into the wall with their combined Force attacks. What about RoDV?
And I loved it in Shatterpoint, when Mace busted out those crazy force moves on Kar Vastor and beat the shi...Oh Wait...he didn't, or in AOTC when he used his crazy force wave to blow away all those little droids and save the da...Oh Wait...he didn't. Or...or...how bout in Shatterpoint when he used his powaz to save those kids by simply lifting the crawler out of the lav...Oh Wait...he didn't, just like um any other time ever. See the difference between you using The Clone Wars and me using The Force Unleashed as its being accepted in the canon that the displays they put on in that game are accurate displays of their abilities especially Vaders whose feats that I showed happened in cutscenes.
Other then that we have Vader doing feats like this in other canon materials, in fact Vader performs nearly an exact same power in SOTME1] That was a ball of kinetic energy - your 'hadoken' - that got deflected by f*cking pre-ESB Luke Skywalker.
I'll also point out that in that source, with the help of Kenobi, Luke cut off Vader's arm and knocked him down a pit.
Yeah. Good job.
And we've seen NUMEROUS instances to where he uses his very superior TK abilities.Lies. We've never seen anything that compares to his TUF showings, which again, are stated numerous times in the videos you provided to be 're-imagining the Force,' and 'over the top.'
Show me ONE other canon piece, other then the CWC were Mace does ANYTHING near that. Sure he may have taken down the tank and the army, but he DIDN'T do it how he did in the CWC.This isn't Star Wars According to You, jackass. That's the way it is, and if you really think you can pass off gameplay clips as canon three months before the game comes out, you're a whole new class of idiot.
Yes, yes I did, by the wording Nick Rotsu gave who saw Kar Vastor obliterate Mace Windu in combat and who was a soldier in his army for years AND who was has been on the recieving end of a Vastor ass beating he gave this wording:"Wouldn't stand a chance" against that Kar Vastor. The one who'd just had his powers amplified by the fall of Depa and the deaths of his six Akk Guards. They'd all been connected, as Mace realized when he dueled Depa, and each time one died, his/her power flowed back to the others. Kar had never been more powerful there, and Nick was knocked out with his stomach cut open."There was no doubt in Nick's mind that, were Kar Vastor pitted against Darth Vader, the feral Balawai renegade wouldn't stand a chance.
"Wouldn't stand a chance", that means he be beaten down in every possible way by Darth Vader
The Force was powerful in Vader; even the dim wattage of Nick's connection could feel that. It was far more powerful than it had been in Kar Vastor."
Note that this is the same man who tossed around Mace Windu like a toy:
"the Force whirled around him and Mace found himself wrenched off the ground, hurtling backwards through the air to slam against the tree...the whole tree shivered with impact...he managed to raise one gesture as though throwing a stone; Mace was whirled forward from the tree to crash against the skull of an astonished akk dog."
And this is the same man who is called by Mace's own admission:
Younger, faster, stronger, and more powerful." was someone Mace couldn't beat straight up on his best day and Nick knows this also.
So Kar Vastor despite being Younger, stronger, FASTER, and more powerful in the force then Mace Windu, "wouldn't stand a chance." against Darth Vader.
With that said, what is stopping Vader from destroying Mace with the force? Mace barely grounded Vastors force assualt and even in that case he couldn't completely stop it, how is he going to fair against someone who's stronger then Vastor with the force?'Barely'? Never stated. And in case you missed it, he did break Vastor's grip.
Oh yeah he seems real hard pressed here:lul teh cartoon?!
Hypocrite.
Just because effort isn't visible doesn't mean it's not there. The novel notes that Dooku needs to replenish himself with the Force during his duel with Anakin and Obi-Wan, but there's no visual indication of that in the movie, is there?
And yeah he might be hard pressed to defeat Grievous without killing him, because that would be contradictory to Sidious's plans.Grasping at straws.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XqKvKUTElALook at his face. Note how he's wheeling away from the vast majority of Grievous' strikes, and deflecting the few that he can't simply dodge. That is perfectly in line with what the novel provided us.What happened in the novel and what happened in the movie were two very different things, in the book Obi Wan is nearly beaten by the sheer amount of strikes Grievous is unleashing at once, yet in the movie he already has one hand off Grievous before the 15 second mark, and has Grievous retreating and with two hands left in a little over half a minute...so ah you WOULDN'T call that easy?
And just because a fight is short doesn't mean it isn't hard, as anyone with half a brain should know.
Super he's faster then Grievous, so is Obi Wan going by the movies...so um HOW does that make his godlike speed so superior to Vaders?Do I need to spell everything out for you?
Obi-Wan struggled to defend against Grievous' assault. Mace put Grievous on the defensive while atop a speeding mag-lev (train).
Other then that how many upper tier duelist has Grievous faced? Mace owns him,Not easily. He even notes to himself that he no longer wants to prolong the contest, and nearly gets his head taken off at one point.
Obi Wan owns him,Obi-Wan owned Anakin, too. But you spend half your time here bitching about how that was super hard and pretty much based on circumstance.
Dooku owns him,Dooku's 'hard-pressed' to beat him.
he runs from Anakin and Obi Wan on the invisible hand, he Dooku says in LOE he'd get leeted if he tried to fight anyone of merit.Dooku said he'd lose if he didn't have the elements of fear, intimidation, and surprise on his side, against the Council members and Cin Drallig. That, plus Anakin, is fourteen people in the entire Jedi Order who would defeat him in a fair fight.
The only person of note who he beats is Shaak Ti, and the only times they fight is when Grievous is leaping from the shadows and ceiling fighting the Jedi for the first time, and the following when Shaak Ti has been weakened by Magna Guards alreadyWait. But the CWC isn't canon!
And you're conveniently leaving out Adi Gallia, a Council member, and Asajj and Durge at the same time. Those two, at too many points in the war to list, gave Anakin and Obi-Wan fits.
"Forte and Kulka were skilled duelists, but Vader was not only faster than Starstone remebered...but also more agile."Considering the last time they saw him, he was a lumbering wreck who managed to get his arm slashed open by a no-name Jedi...
In addition to LS posted him taking on hundreds of bounty huntersFisto, Tinn, and Kolar did as much, individually, with Kolar having done so on at least two separate occasions. Maul raped Black Sun alone. Obi-Wan and Fisto fought through a small army of X'Ting with their bare hands to get to Ventress in CD.
Not an unusual accomplishment for a Force-user of note.
and Vader decimating without his saber on this:Without his lightsaber, sure. He still had a sword, and he was fighting individual non-Force-sensitives.
He then proceeds to kill those two and two more Jedi within a half of a page.Two more Jedi? While fighting Imperial Guardsmen?
Scans.
He was able to match the speed and overpower Dark Woman who was powerful enough to become a force ghost after her death, not to mention being all around skilled.So were Odan-Urr, Vodo, Arca Jeth, a Force-less Ulic Qel-Droma, and Qui-Gon Jinn.
He was able to match the speed of Maul all throughout their duel till the very end, and at one point overpowered him, surprising the Prophets causing them to remark of equal they were. This the same Maul who decimated Anoon the most technically skilled duelist of the order (over that of Yoda and Mace).Read: technically skilled. Any of the upper-tier as of RotS would kick Anoon's ass.
Finally this Maul was pure dark side, which if anything should have increased his power....
Sure.
Yet Vader can stand against him, and isn't totally in awe of speed like you'll claim he'll be against Mace.Maul isn't Mace. Jesus, are you really this daft? Maul never demonstrated speed rivaling that of Grievous, Mace, Sidious, or Yoda. He's skilled and he could take on most, but again, the PT upper tiers would demolish him.
I'm not saying Vader is faster then Mace by any means I'm saying he wont be insta outclassed like Ventress was when she fought Mace, he'll be able to fight evenly with Mace Windu for a time, just as he did with Maul, he'd realize he can't beat him with his saber then just murk him with the force.No he won't. Mace is faster, stronger, more powerful, and more skilled than Maul, and has the advantages of Vaapad and shatterpoint on his side.
"Vaders bloodlust had been appeased; replaced by self-possession of a sort he had never before experienced. It was as if he had crossed some invisible threshold to a new world. He could feel the power of the Dark Side surging through him like an icy torrent. He felt invulnerable in a way that had nothing to do with his durasteel prostheses,his suit of armour and gadgets, which now seemed little more then an outfit."Doesn't mean it makes him faster, he's just gotten used to it. The restrictions are all still there, he's just learning to cope with them.By the end of the novel Vader is no longer bothered by the Suit.
Urm NO thats BULLSHIT and you know it, why didn't Mace do his feats in Geonosis he could have saved like you know 100+ Jedi with his awesome non existent leet force powers. The difference between my source and yours is the fact that mine are backed up by other pieces of canon, where as yours are...Not.Been over this. Vader never displays feats remotely close to those in TUF. His 'hadoken', regardless of its source, gets deflected by noob-Luke.
Vader would eventually lose a long straight saber duel, however, he'd decimate him with the force, and why would Vader even try to fight MACE WINDU in a saber duel, he KNOWS Mace is a renowned saber duelist he KNOWS about Mace's Vaapad and Shatterpoint abilities.So did Sidious.
Next time, let the drugs wear off. Don’t waste my time with this garbage.
Originally posted by Chick Magnet"It was a fight he couldn't win on his best day."
No, that quote happens at the start of their second fight where they're both using weapons. It was plainly talking about the two of them fighting straight up on any given sunday, Mace couldn't beat him. Flat out, no variables, never. So there goes that argument
'It' being a duel with a suped-up Vastor, as explained above.
And this one:So he's willing to take on Maul, who Sidious would've told him about, when he could just crush him with the Force, but he'll be all smart against Mace and step back?Um he could have. when the new Maul showed himself and Vader was questioning the Prophets they challenge him to fight Maul, however they go on to note his alternatives, they say that he could and I quote: "try to Just destroys us all now" then they say that he "Just might succeed." Meaning that Vader could have killed them all with the force and be done with the whole situation. Otherwise how in the hell would Vader whom they were so confident would fall to Maul be able to take not only Maul BUT Maul with a bunch of Prophets of the Dark Side? Vader could have beaten them with the force.
No its not the same as I said Vaders are backed up, Mace's aren't and thus his feats in the CWC are NOT CANON ie: bullshit.Vader's aren't. He has no comparable Force-feats. Mace at least crushes Grievous with a STAP in When They Were Brother.
How many times have we seen Vader sacrfice his body to get in close and give a killing blow. He could do the same here, Mace doesn't know where stabbing will kill Vader, Vader knows where he can be stabbed and not die however. And when Vaders can simply push him abck with the force anyways, and proceed the battle as a force duel.He won't know where to stab him? WTF? Vader took a lightsaber through the gut, sure. So did Mace. If either gets stabbed in the heart or head (or suffers decapitation), they're dead.
Nice try.