Revan and Malak vs. Anakin and Obi-Wan

And crimzon I thought we were talking about ROTS Anakin not ROTJ Vader, I use Vader and Anakin interchangeably sometimes.

Originally posted by Chick Magnet
I've not engaged in any insult hurling e-hate, theres a differnce between being condcending which we both do as well as the majority of this forum and calling someone an idiot because you don't agree with me about the power of a Star Wras character.

Lol. That explains a lot.

RotS Anakin vs. Mace is quite a lot different than RotJ Vader vs. Mace. While he will now get absolutely punked by Mace in the force, he stands- especially if he's in teh zone- a good chance in a lightsaber duel. A good chance in the sense that he can last a certain while and has a shot at defeating Mace in stricly lightsaber combat- it's not a majority shot, but rather it's better than 1/10. I'd say he can maybe take on Mace in a lightsaber duel 3/10, or 4/10 times, and either way, it'll be rather difficult for him. He'll have to rely fully on his speed, Vaapad, and shatterpoint abilities- as I've said with D Power, his speed, while greater than RotS Anakin's, isn't that better (the speed he displayed against Sidious is thanks to the superconducting loop feature of Vaapad)- but his shatterpoint ability, in addition to his Vaapad's superconducting loop (theoretically granting him a benefit from Anakin's rage- and it was confirmed in the RotS novel that Anakin was utilzing his rage), will allow him to score a win on Anakin.

Now, your whole "Anakin can beat Sidious in lightsaber combat" point becomes that much more clear and logical. I'd say that Anakin has around the same sort of chances to defeat Sidious as he has against Mace- not good chances, but not very bad chances, either. Sidious is faster and more technically skilled- but Anakin is stronger, has more stamina/raw power, and only increases in power as a fight progresses. However, Sidious can- possibly- overwhelm Anakin's defenses via his speed and unpredictable bladework (as the only being in Star Wars who fought with Sidious who can match him in speed using only innate power is Yoda)- if Anakin can get Sidious trapped in defense from one of the assaults like the one he unleashed on Dooku, I don't think Sidious can withstand it, being of lesser physical strength and stature than Anakin- however, this is unlikely, because of Sidious' agility and speed (which are both greater than Dooku's own). Nevertheless, the possibility of Anakin in the right state of mind defeating Sidious in pure lightsaber combat isn't very far-fetched or really unlikely, and one could make an excellent argument as to why Anakin can defeat Sidious.

Now I've finished ranting- Faunus handled the Vader argument very well, and I don't think I can add anything to what he said.

And now, how the hell did we get so off-topic? -_-

"Wouldn't stand a chance" against that Kar Vastor. The one who'd just had his powers amplified by the fall of Depa and the deaths of his six Akk Guards. They'd all been connected, as Mace realized when he dueled Depa, and each time one died, his/her power flowed back to the others. Kar had never been more powerful there, and Nick was knocked out with his stomach cut open.

The only part that matters.

"A knot of Clone Troopers stood back-to-back, firing desperately at one lone Akk Guard who leaped and spun and slaughtered with demonic precision.
No: not an Akk Guard.
It was Kar Vastor."

Nicks POV during the end fight.

He then proceeds to attempt to shoot at Kar then Vastor takes him out. So he did see the suped up Vastor, Nick has no knowledge of how the force works he didn't know that all the death was feeding Vastor, he'd think it was simply Vastors power then guy whom he saw beat Mace Windu silly, and YET he still puts Vader above Kar.

Face it, Vader is stronger in the force then that amped up Kar who Mace could never beat straight up. how again is Mace gonna win.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

RotS Anakin vs. Mace is quite a lot different than RotJ Vader vs. Mace. While he will now get absolutely punked by Mace in the force, he stands- especially if he's in teh zone- a good chance in a lightsaber duel.

i dnt think ROTS Anakin would get punked in the force by Mace. not if its Anakin in control.. like when he beat Dooku.. he had a lot of raw power in the force when he has his emotions in check and can control it that is. also his natural force defences should be very good.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

Oh, and why didn't Vader "Uber force pwn!!11!!!" Maul? Why didn't he disable Luke effortlessly with the force? Inconsistency, much? It's the same thing as Mace.

no inconsistency here.

Maul didnt give him a chance.. I think Vader was kind of taken by surprise with the whole fight, but Maul was all ready and just jumped at him. if mace does the same and makes it straight into a lightsaber duel, then yeah mace will win.. everyone admits that.

Vader was holding back on Luke, and purposely goading him into a lightsaber battle, and getting him to use his anger. dominating Luke with the Force would not have helped Vaders goal much.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Both TFU and the Clone Wars depict a canonical- albeit exaggerrated- level of power for characters. You can't argue with Lucas, mate.

Correct me if im wrong, but isnt TFU been said to be "over the top" because theres no holding back on the force powers. not to mention how powerful the players are. For instance the biggest feat, bringing down the star destroyer, is going to be part of the story even in the novel by the looks of things. but we really should wait for the novel to be released for confirmation of all things on TFU..

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Futhermore, how will Vader get away from Mace fast enough to crush him with the force? Mace is considerably faster, and is no slouch in the force, either- Vader doesn't have the mobility and the speed to get away from Mace Windu in combat. If he makes the mistake of engaging Mace in a lightsaber duel, he's doomed.

Ur right Vader wont escape him once the lightsaber duel has started.. he can however dominate Mace in a force fight... i.e. from a distance and not let Mace get too close.. or at least get as much damage in before he does.

and for those people saying why Sidious didnt just do that then... well i think their forgetting the fact that Mace started the fight with 3 jedis on his side, so Sidious couldnt have used the force on all 4 of them simultaneously.. Obviously!

also Sidious vs. Mace in the saber fight were quite even, so Sidious thought he might win.. Vader would know he wuldnt win the saber fight, so would try his best to avoid that.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
no inconsistency here.

Maul didnt give him a chance.. I think Vader was kind of taken by surprise with the whole fight, but Maul was all ready and just jumped at him. if mace does the same and makes it straight into a lightsaber duel, then yeah mace will win.. everyone admits that.

Actually Vader agreed with the prophets that he wouldn't use the dark side of the force to crush them (which they knew he could), so he accepted their challenge, which was to duel Maul to see who was worthier to be Sidious apprentice.

also wuldnt Maul have better resistance to darkside attacks.. like he had resistance to the witch sisters force lightning, which she said no one could have unless they were a Sith??

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
no inconsistency here.

Maul didnt give him a chance.. I think Vader was kind of taken by surprise with the whole fight, but Maul was all ready and just jumped at him. if mace does the same and makes it straight into a lightsaber duel, then yeah mace will win.. everyone admits that.

Percisely. Mace is faster than Maul- ergo, he can trap Vader in a saber duel more quickly than Maul. And seeing as he's not exactly helpless before Vader's force attacks, as Magnet seems to believe, I seriously don't see a single reason why Vader would decimate him with the force before they engage in a lightsaber duel, especially due to Vader's tendency to engage in a lightsaber duel. If that happens, he isn't mobile or fast enough to get away from Mace.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Vader was holding back on Luke, and purposely goading him into a lightsaber battle, and getting him to use his anger. dominating Luke with the Force would not have helped Vaders goal much.

It's true for the saber duel on Bespin- however, in the lightsaber duel upon the Second Death Star, Vader was- according to the novel- truly surprised by Luke's newfound abilities- however, he still dominated the fight until Luke did the whole "NOOOOOO!!!" thing. Luke's rage, together with Vader's emotional conflict, led to Luke's victory (a regular Vader would've decimated Luke)- Vader was not toying with him. Now, I ask you- why didn't Vader use the force against Luke when he used his rage-empowered barrage? It could've stopped it, no? My point is that, in response to Magnet's post, the same inconsistencies lie with Vader as they do with Mace- just because they're not using the force in a way they did in another source doesn't mean they're incapable of it.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Correct me if im wrong, but isnt TFU been said to be "over the top" because theres no holding back on the force powers. not to mention how powerful the players are. For instance the biggest feat, bringing down the star destroyer, is going to be part of the story even in the novel by the looks of things. but we really should wait for the novel to be released for confirmation of all things on TFU..

Gameplay. It's designed to be "Over the top gameplay", depicting the force in an exaggerrated manner similar to the Clone Wars Cartoon. Thankfully, however, we have the novel to clarify some of that.

What's interesting is to see how Vader and Sidious would be depicted in that game.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Ur right Vader wont escape him once the lightsaber duel has started.. he can however dominate Mace in a force fight... i.e. from a distance and not let Mace get too close.. or at least get as much damage in before he does.

Mace isn't helpless in a force fight, and will pretty much own Vader when it comes to pure lightsaber combat- between that and Vader's tendency to favor lightsaber battling, it's difficult for me to imagine a situation when Mace will lose.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
and for those people saying why Sidious didnt just do that then... well i think their forgetting the fact that Mace started the fight with 3 jedis on his side, so Sidious couldnt have used the force on all 4 of them simultaneously.. Obviously!

Excellent point, though Sidious had already decimated numbers like that with his force lightning.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
also Sidious vs. Mace in the saber fight were quite even, so Sidious thought he might win.. Vader would know he wuldnt win the saber fight, so would try his best to avoid that.

Note I didn't bring this up because I agree with you- Sidious' dominance or at least equality in the lightsaber duel prevented him from launching his force attacks on Mace.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Percisely. Mace is faster than Maul- ergo, he can trap Vader in a saber duel more quickly than Maul. And seeing as he's not exactly helpless before Vader's force attacks, as Magnet seems to believe, I seriously don't see a single reason why Vader would decimate him with the force before they engage in a lightsaber duel, especially due to Vader's tendency to engage in a lightsaber duel. If that happens, he isn't mobile or fast enough to get away from Mace.

It wasn't about Maul's speed but Vader willfully choosing not to take advantage of his greater force mastery. In that story, the prophets and Maul claim that Vader isn't worthy that his history as Jedi undermine his status as Sith. So Vader - who was prepared to destroy the lot of them with the dark side - decides to take the prophet's challenge which is a straight duel with Maul.

I don't think Vader would simply overwhelm Mace, although if push came to shove I think Vader's greater strength in the force will play a part in the fight.

Originally posted by Gideon
Had to. Jack of Blades and General Grievous don't exactly match.

Jack of Blades is still one badass character, though.

I can't wait for the game.

Crimzon read my last post to fanus, I already addressed your points about Vader not stopping Luke and Maul and about the inconsistencies.

just reading up to about page 6.. which is about all i feel like reading rightnow... WHy do we take Nick's word for it that Vader is stronger than vastor? that is one man's opinion. He's not even a jedi. Maybe Vader was displaying his power in the force more or something: Maybe he was more angry.... Consider: which would seem more powerful in the force? A Luke skywalker cloaking his force abilities, or say, a furious Jaden Korr? Jaden would. Until you get a more reliable source than Nick, you can't just start using the argument, Vader> Vastor.

However, I've always thought Vader and quite a few others were larger than Vastor anyway... but i'm not going to quote a non-jedi as the end all of that argument.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Percisely. Mace is faster than Maul- ergo, he can trap Vader in a saber duel more quickly than Maul. And seeing as he's not exactly helpless before Vader's force attacks, as Magnet seems to believe, I seriously don't see a single reason why Vader would decimate him with the force before they engage in a lightsaber duel, especially due to Vader's tendency to engage in a lightsaber duel. If that happens, he isn't mobile or fast enough to get away from Mace.

Um vader isn't stupid enough to go and fight a battle when he clearly knows he would lose, that would be stupidity at its peak.

meh im not reading all this shit. This could go both ways depending on who takes who. Since soresu is defending till you see a mistake, It would take obi wan a long time to take out malak. This means that Anakin is alone vs Revan and gets his arse handed to him. Then revan and malak team on obi wan and obi wan goes down. OR if it gets matched teh other way, Obi wan holds revan off untill anakin can kill malak then they team on revan and revan goes down. SO really this is a draw.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Wait.. so despite vader knowing he WILL lose to mace in a saber duel due to mace's superior saber abilities, he is going to go ahead be stupid and engage him in a saber duel?

Um vader isn't stupid enough to go and fight a battle when he clearly knows he would lose, that would be stupidity at its peak.

1. Vader is overconfident. For all we know, he never sparred with Mace Windu (although he acknowledged his skills multiple times).

2. Vader always engages in a lightsaber duel before using the force- and if that happens, he's doomed.

3. Vader isn't good enough in the force to crush Windu easily- Windu can last a while, and can use his superior speed and mobility to close the gap between him and Vader.

You know I don't underestimate Vader. I just don't think he can defeat Windu in single combat- and if he can, it'll be with incredible difficulty, and will have to employ plenty of self-sacrifice.

Edit: Knightfall, what the hell makes you think Revan can defeat Anakin in a lightsaber duel? In a force fight, sure. In an all-out, maybe. But in a lightsaber duel? We know nothing about Revan's skills. Meanwhile, Anakin was able to crush Dooku- acknowledged as one of the greatest Jedi Masters and an even greater Sith Lord- in lightsaber combat, despite Dookubeing aware of all the forms and having decades to refine his Makashi. Oh, and he doesn't lack in force ability, either.

Anakin was also able to, apparently, defeat Cin Drallig with ease (one-hand), a person who Dooku told Grievous to avoid- the same Grievous who curbstomped Ki-Adi-Mundi and Shaak Ti in single combat, two talented Jedi.

Anakin becomes stronger as a fight progresses, has immense reserves of stamina and force power... you have to be incredibly, incredibly good in lightsaber combat to defeat him. Revan, as far as we know, isn't. He loses to Anakin in a lightsaber duel.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
1. Vader is overconfident. For all we know, he never sparred with Mace Windu (although he acknowledged his skills multiple times).

Him not sparring with mace means absolute jack.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

2. Vader always engages in a lightsaber duel before using the force- and if that happens, he's doomed.

Hurray for logic!

Tell me one thing, if your a fighter and you KNOW you are going to lose to your opponent if you try to fight him a certain way are you going to be stupid enough to even try to fight him that particular way?

Or are you going to try another strategy or method?

Him being overconfident means sh!t, is he going to remain cocky and overconfident against an opponent who already had the liberty to mop his(according to him, he can never defeat master alone!) masters ass on the floor in a saber duel?. If his superior(by obvious reasons and his own admittance) can't put windu's ass on the floor do you think he would even want to try doing so?

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

3. Vader isn't good enough in the force to crush Windu easily- Windu can last a while, and can use his superior speed and mobility to close the gap between him and Vader.

The fact that in the bounty hunter wars he could choke xizor millions of lightyears away via a hologram meeting and was on the verge of breaking his neck when palpatine stopped him.

The thing is if mace does not put up a defence quick enough, what is there to stop him from getting crushed by vader?

Hell its the same thing for vader, if he doesn't put up a defence he too gets crushed.

So again this is a difficult fight for either.

Oh and do provide proof that mace's "mobility and speed" is going to save him from force attacks that he cannot out run.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

You know I don't underestimate Vader. I just don't think he can defeat Windu in single combat- and if he can, it'll be with incredible difficulty, and will have to employ plenty of self-sacrifice.

Again who on earth are you to judge the outcome of a battle against two fictional characters? This is purely hypothetical and the claim you just made is absurd, it seems that you actually decided how should vader win.

I already made it clear that either can win, it all depends on the [/b]circumstances[/b] and situation and it is pretty damn obvious that vader is NOT going to fight a saber duel that he knows he CANNOT win.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Does it mean he *doesn't* know about mace saber dueling capabilities? He obviously knew mace for over a decade and are you going to tell me he *doesn't* know of mace windu's fighting style and technique?

Anakin never once mentioned he knew anything[/b] about Windu's Vaapad, unless you can display a source to me. If you can, point conceded.

The fact of the matter is, Windu didn't like Anakin- I doubt he engaged him in discussions about saber styles, forms, etc. For all Vader knew, Mace was a superb swordsman- and seeing as he, too, considered himself an excellent swordsman (and contrary to common opinion, he is), I don't really see a reason why Vader would know not to engage Mace in a duel.

[i]Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Right. and he is going to be stupid to go ahead and fight a saber duel he already knows he cannot win.

Hurray for logic!

Tell me one thing, if your a fighter and you KNOW you are going to lose to your opponent if you try to fight him a certain way are you going to be stupid enough to even try to fight him that particular way?

Or are you going to try another strategy or method?

I would- obiviously try a different method, just like I wouldn't try to wrestle a bodybuilder to the ground. However, for all Vader knew, Mace was an excellent swordsman who could decimate armies of battle droids- he doesn't, apparently, know of Windu's Vaapad. Vader doesn't know for certain he's going to lose in a lightsaber duel- you've yet to explain why you think he will go "OMG Windu is better than me I gotta pwn him with the force!".

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Him being overconfident means sh!t, is he going to remain cocky and overconfident against an opponent who already had the liberty to mop his(according to him, he can never defeat master alone!) masters ass on the floor in a saber duel?. If his superior(by obvious reasons and his own admittance) can't put windu's ass on the floor do you think he would even want to [b]try doing so?[/B]

There's even a possibility that Sidious never told Vader that he actually engaged in a lightsaber duel with Mace, seeing as he wants to keep the whole "I was helpless and he tried to kill me!" facade to Vader. Again- tell me why you think he would necessarily be aware of Windu's defeat of Sidious in lightsaber duel- for all he knew, Sidious just attempted to resist using lightning.

Sidious wouldn't want to tell Vader that Mace actually defeated him, seeing as he likes to keep his apprentices mystified about his true level of power, and wants them to both fear and be in awe of him. If Vader was to know that Sidious actually tried to resist Mace with a lightsaber duel, it would both destroy the act of Sidious' innocence and make him suddenly seem beatable. Sidious wouldn't want that.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Oh so now vader isn't "good enough" despite his feats which rivals mace windu in the CW? The fact that he could toy with a jedi slamming him onto every tree and every plank of wood and before doing all this disarm that jedi with his BARE HANDS.

Oh, Vader is superior to Mace in the force- I don't think anyone doubts that. But the fact is, there is no signficant difference between them that could allow Vader to absolutely dominate him in a force fight. Mace would resist- and he isn't dumb. His favored mode of fighting is lightsaber combat- he'll use his superior agility and speed, in addition to him not being as helpless as an old lady getting robbed in a a force fight, to close the gap between Mace and Vader.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
The fact that in the bounty hunter wars he could choke xizor millions of lightyears away via a hologram meeting and was on the verge of breaking his neck when palpatine stopped him.

*Sigh*. Vader could possibly choke Windu. It's a possibility- but Windu, displaying the ability to decimate hundreds of droids with a force wave, could, very possibly, resist this. At least for long enough for him to close the distance between him and Vader.

I suppose there's a possibility that Vader would kill him in a force fight. But it's just one possibility. And I might as well note that Windu could crush his chest- but Vader is force-sensitive, ergo he can resist. The same applies for Windu.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
The thing is if mace does not put up a defence quick enough, what is there to stop him from getting crushed by vader?

This works both ways. The answer is nothing- however, due to precognition and common sense (Vader lifting his arms means something...), he's going to put up a defense.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
So again this is a difficult fight for either.

Did I say anything different? Vader has a shot. Particularly if he, by some creative manner, traps Windu in a force fight- then, he will win. If not, Windu wins. It'll be an excellent fight to see- and I never once said Windu would be Vader without difficulty.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Oh and do provide proof that mace's "mobility and speed" is going to save him from force attacks that he cannot out run.

His force resistance will. You misunderstood me- I think he can probably block Vader's force attacks- or at least resist them for a while- in the necessary time he has to close the gap between him and Vader. Vader isn't nearly as fast moving as he is- unless he's gonna use some terrain advantage, or uses objects nearby to distract Mace, Mace will- most probably- close the gap in time to defeat Vader in a lightsaber duel.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
No, you DO underestimate vader, you just contradicted yourself in one post. And you will have to provide proof that vader will need plenty of "self sacrifice" in order to win.

Again who on earth are you to judge the outcome of a battle against two fictional characters? This is purely hypothetical and the claim you just made is absurd, it seems that you actually decided how should vader win.

1. I do understimate Vader, seeing as I was practically the only one- alongside you- who argued for him in the Revan vs. Vader debate.

2. Chill off, please.

3. I've gathered information, and I've made the conclusion that Vader will have to get creative and smart to defeat Mace Windu- of course it's my opinion, and you can debate against this, most certainly. However- from what I've seen, Mace can resist Vader long enough (he's helpless before Vader in a force fight- sure, he'll lose in a prolonged fight, but it's not gonna be very prolonged) in order to close the gap between them. The best way for Vader to win would be to crush Mace with some sort of object, or block his path, or something along the lines of that. He can't take him in an open fight, from what I've seen.

4. I meant that if they engage in a lightsaber duel, Vader would probably have to sacrifice portions of his body- like one of his arms- in order to somehow get away from Windu and hold him off in a force fight. Do you not agree? It's Vader best chance- along with simply breaking Windu's neck (unlikely)- to somehow get away in a lightsaber duel.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
I already made it clear that either can win, it all depends on the circumstances[/b] and situation and it is pretty damn obvious that vader is NOT going to fight a saber duel that he knows he CANNOT win. [/B]

You've yet to display how Vader will be naturally awed by Windu's lightsaber skills. Of course this fight can go either way, really- I can certainly imagine a situation with Vader coming on top. However, I think Mace will take this more times than not.

Originally posted by truejedi
just reading up to about page 6.. which is about all i feel like reading rightnow... WHy do we take Nick's word for it that Vader is stronger than vastor? that is one man's opinion. He's not even a jedi. Maybe Vader was displaying his power in the force more or something: Maybe he was more angry.... Consider: which would seem more powerful in the force? A Luke skywalker cloaking his force abilities, or say, a furious Jaden Korr? Jaden would. Until you get a more reliable source than Nick, you can't just start using the argument, Vader> Vastor.

However, I've always thought Vader and quite a few others were larger than Vastor anyway... but i'm not going to quote a non-jedi as the end all of that argument.

You bring up a good point. But I'm pretty sure Vastor doesn't know how to conceal himself. Nick has seen and most likely felt Vastor in the force both in and out of combat. So when he saw Vader(i dont have the book so i dont know what the conditions were) then it really doesn't matter if he saw Vader in combat or taking a piss, either way imo, he can compare him to Vastor. I wonder who would win a saber/vibroshiled duel.

@Knightfall-Yea,so how exactly will Revan give ROTS Anakin his ass?

Don't take it that i seem angry at you, i just happen to be quite sarcastic when i debate sometimes.😱

If anything offends you don't take it to the heart and just let me know ok?

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Anakin never once mentioned he knew anything about Windu's Vaapad, unless you can display a source to me. If you can, point conceded.[/B]

I guess you never watched [i]attack of the clones when they FOUGHT along side each other, oh right anakin sure does not know of mace windus saber dueling capabilities despite seeing him in action.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

The fact of the matter is, Windu didn't like Anakin- I doubt he engaged him in discussions about saber styles, forms, etc. For all Vader knew, Mace was a superb swordsman- and seeing as he, too, considered himself an excellent swordsman (and contrary to common opinion, he is), [/b]I don't really see a reason why Vader would know not to engage Mace in a duel. [/B]

I'll respond to the ones highlighted in bold.

Oh right! Vader would still want to fight mace windu DESPITE the fact that vader clearly knows that his superior(mr almighty sidious) got his ass whopped by windus vaapad and shatterpoint.

Dude seriously, you make it sound as if vader is the most idiotic character.

And its clearly hysterically funny that you claim you are not underestimating vader which you are clearly doing by even wanting to instigate this debate in the first place.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
I would- obiviously try a different method, just like I wouldn't try to wrestle a bodybuilder to the ground. However, for all Vader knew, Mace was an excellent swordsman who could decimate armies of battle droids- he doesn't, apparently, know of Windu's Vaapad.

Ah yes anakin never heard of vaapad despite seeing windu utilising it in action.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Vader doesn't know for certain he's going to lose in a lightsaber duel- you've yet to explain why you think he will go "OMG Windu is better than me I gotta pwn him with the force!". [/B]

Right, vader doesn't know he is going to lose despite the fact that his superior master already got his ass badly beaten by mace windus lightstick. Good logic and great way of being so irrational.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
There's even a possibility that Sidious never told Vader that he actually engaged in a lightsaber duel with Mace, seeing as he wants to keep the whole "I was helpless and he tried to kill me!" facade to Vader.
[/B]

And "it's very possible" that Star Wars takes place on a microscopic scale inside Lucas' rectum. Without evidence, don't claim it.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Again- tell me why you think he would necessarily be aware of Windu's defeat of Sidious in lightsaber duel- for all he knew, Sidious just attempted to resist using lightning.

Really? if he wasn't aware that sidious was defeated then why is he not aware of the other jedi? Why is he not aware that the area itself showed signs of battle?

Right, it is also unlikely that anakin didn't sense ripples in the force as palpatine and windu were battling each other.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Sidious wouldn't want to tell Vader that Mace actually defeated him, seeing as he likes to keep his apprentices mystified about his true level of power,

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
and wants them to both fear and be in awe of him. If Vader was to know that Sidious actually tried to resist Mace with a lightsaber duel,

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
it would both destroy the act of Sidious' innocence and make him suddenly seem beatable. Sidious wouldn't want that.

The thing is vader DOES know sidious is beatable, hence he tried to recruit luke into helping him and starkiller. But the only problem is that he already admitted that he couldn't defeat sidious alone.

Vader clearly knows that sidious is beatable.

Oh and i almost forgot to bring this point up. I think its pretty obvious that vader by the OT knew that sidious got into a fight with mace windu and got his ass handed in the process as by RODV and later on he already knew that sidious was merely a fartbag using vader like a whore so how exactly by then he would still think sidious is "innocent"?

I bet sidious didn't even lose his virginity as the dark side energies deformed his cock.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Oh, Vader is superior to Mace in the force- I don't think anyone doubts that. But the fact is, there is no signficant difference between them that could allow Vader to absolutely dominate him in a force fight.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Mace would resist- and he isn't dumb. His favored mode of fighting is lightsaber combat- he'll use his superior agility and speed, in addition to him not being as helpless as an old lady getting robbed in a a force fight, to close the gap between Mace and Vader.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
*Sigh*. Vader could possibly choke Windu. It's a possibility- but Windu, displaying the ability to decimate hundreds of droids with a force wave, could, very possibly, resist this. At least for long enough for him to close the distance between him and Vader.

Again vice versa is likely which is why i made it clear that it depends on the circumstances.

You my friend are making it sound that mace WILL beat vader in a fight.

Hell this is getting inconclusive on who would win.

The only reason i argued is because you made vader look stupid by wanting to fight an opponent in a saber duel where he clearly knows he will lose(thats because you never heard of battle precognition where it alerts vader of mace superior saber abilities).

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
I suppose there's a possibility that Vader would kill him in a force fight. But it's just one possibility. And I might as well note that Windu could crush his chest- but Vader is force-sensitive, ergo he can resist. The same applies for Windu.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
This works both ways. The answer is nothing- however, due to precognition and common sense (Vader lifting his arms means something...), he's going to put up a defense.

Did I say anything different? Vader has a shot. Particularly if he, by some creative manner, traps Windu in a force fight- then, he will win. If not, Windu wins. It'll be an excellent fight to see- and I never once said Windu would be Vader without difficulty.

His force resistance will. You misunderstood me- I think he can probably block Vader's force attacks- or at least resist them for a while- in the necessary time he has to close the gap between him and Vader. Vader isn't nearly as fast moving as he is- unless he's gonna use some terrain advantage, or uses objects nearby to distract Mace, Mace will- most probably- close the gap in time to defeat Vader in a lightsaber duel.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
1. I do understimate Vader, seeing as I was practically the only one- alongside you- who argued for him in the Revan vs. Vader debate.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
2. Chill off, please.