Originally posted by h1a8
It doesn't have to say. It only needs to show. It which it did.
Originally posted by h1a8
That's fine. But what writers have to say hold no water here and panel evidence do (unless they are explaining the story they already wrote).
Originally posted by h1a8
Cyttorak limits the amount he can draw. That is why Cyttorak was able to depower him. That is why Juggs was weaker when he shared his power. That is why Cyttorak made Juggs stronger during 8th day and Trion saga. For if Juggs found a way to draw upon more power on his own will then he will still be at 8th day or Trion levels now wouldn't he?
Both the 8th Day event and Trion event, Juggs wasn't in control. On 8th Day Juggs was mind controlled and was focused on getting somewhere, that is why he got stronger. When the Trion possessed him, they were controlling his power and drawing more of it.
Originally posted by h1a8
The hypothetical COULD doesn't apply to fictional characters. This is because they don't exist. Thus it all depends on the writers' opinions. But writer's opinions may or may not be valid as some of us only go on on panel evidence. But according to the entire Jugg's history, it seems that all writers who wrote Juggs never intended on Juggs having the power to increase his strength on his own will. His strength level depends on the will of Cyttorak alone. Meaning, Cyttorak limits his strength. This is why 8th day and Trion were stronger and why Juggs and Cassidy were weaker than the original Juggs when they shared the power.But it is a waste of time even mentioning something that isn't practical (or won't happen) in a forum fight. This is to say, I don't see Cyttorak increasing Juggs strength beyond any limits just because he's fighting someone and losing. So saying that Juggs have (or could have) unlimited potential doesn't help him here. It is a moot point indeed.
Sorry for me misunderstanding you though. And note, some of this post isn't directed towards you but any who thinks that Juggs can increase his strength beyond any limit off his own will.
My post isn't arguing for or against Juggernaut having limitless potential. That is a point I don't care about enough right now to speak for or against. My post simply pointed out that being limitless in one aspect may not always be mutually exclusive with being weaker than another entity, which is true, as long as mathematics is ignored.
And no problems with the misunderstanding.
Originally posted by h1a8
Show me. Do you have any scans? Where do you get this reference from? Why hasn't Juggs ever increased his strength in battle? And increasing one's strength 1lb per hour is also limitless potential by definition. He has no known upper limits as his bios says but this doesn't mean limitless.
No, I don't have scans of it. It's from Green Mail at the back of issue #432.
Originally posted by Ptr_GrifinOf course it did. Where were you?
It has never shown that.
Now either what I say is true or false but certainly no opinion. The reason writer's quotes hold no water because people lie, people change their minds, people don't have current authority, etc. The only way we can know for sure of something is if it happens on panel. Otherwise, it isn't certain whether something is true or false. And something that is not 100% certain is pure speculation.
Again this is all your opinion. And Juggernaut has shown to be able to increase his strength on panel. One of the editors at the time of the 8th Day arc said Juggernaut didn't get a power up, yet he was stronger. It hasn't been obvious.
Why did Juggs get and stayed weaker when he shared his power? Juggs threw the gem in space in disgust so that no one can ever share his power and weaken him again. So that event proves that either Juggs can't increase his strength on his own or lacks the knowledge to do so.
You need to go back and read the WWH X-Men #3 because it says different, and on panel. Cyttorak didn't make Juggs stronger during the 8th Day arc or the Trion one. "Would he still be at those levels?" Is Hulk still at WWH levels?
Also, why did Cyttorak depower Juggs that time? This also proves that Cyttorak limits Juggs for his purpose.
Why speculate so hard? Speculation is an automatic fail. 8th day Juggs was clearly in control. It was just he was being called somewhere. He had all his mental facilities operating.
Both the 8th Day event and Trion event, Juggs wasn't in control. On 8th Day Juggs was mind controlled and was focused on getting somewhere, that is why he got stronger. When the Trion possessed him, they were controlling his power and drawing more of it.
Originally posted by h1a8
Of course it did. Where were you?
Again I don't remember Cy ever saying he grants Cains certain amount of strength. Point out an issue.
Originally posted by h1a8
Why did Juggs get and stayed weaker when he shared his power? Juggs threw the gem in space in disgust so that no one can ever share his power and weaken him again. So that event proves that either Juggs can't increase his strength on his own or lacks the knowledge to do so.
There is a nice little retcon that explains this. Go read New Excalibur's Redeemed arc. When someone else comes in contact with the gem and their is a potential for a new Juggernaut they lose most of the power and are killable. So the two Juggernauts duke it out till one is dead and the other gets the power.
Originally posted by h1a8
Also, why did Cyttorak depower Juggs that time? This also proves that Cyttorak limits Juggs for his purpose.
Here is where your "argument" is shooting it self down. ON PANEL, Cyttorak has said he wasn't the one restricting Cains power.
Originally posted by h1a8
Why speculate so hard? Speculation is an automatic fail. 8th day Juggs was clearly in control. It was just he was being called somewhere. He had all his mental facilities operating.
There is no speculation on that. Have you even read the 8th day arc? Cain was definitely not completely in control. This is shown especially in the part 4 8th Day one shot. All of the exemplars where being mind controlled. Cain was fighting for control over his own mind against Cy. You can see the part where Cain breaks free and starts fighting against the other exemplars.
Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
Again I don't remember Cy ever saying he grants Cains certain amount of strength. Point out an issue.There is a nice little retcon that explains this. Go read New Excalibur's Redeemed arc. When someone else comes in contact with the gem and their is a potential for a new Juggernaut they lose most of the power and are killable. So the two Juggernauts duke it out till one is dead and the other gets the power.
Here is where your "argument" is shooting it self down. ON PANEL, Cyttorak has said he wasn't the one restricting Cains power.
There is no speculation on that. Have you even read the 8th day arc? Cain was definitely not completely in control. This is shown especially in the part 4 8th Day one shot. All of the exemplars where being mind controlled. Cain was fighting for control over his own mind against Cy. You can see the part where Cain breaks free and starts fighting against the other exemplars.
I disagree. Even if what you are saying is true then it's moot anyway.
Why? Because "Potential is meaningless if it remains untapped". Since there was no where on panel where it showed Juggs increasing his strength (his bios don't even mention this but they mention it for Hulk, SS, etc.) then he either must not know about it or really can't do it. So anyway you look at it, Juggs won't be doing that here in the forum battle.
Originally posted by h1a8No its not what you did, all you did was present more speculative unbacked opinions of yours. this is the circular reasoning fallacy. You're using your own assumptions as proof of your claims.
How do you prove someone lied? You show that what happened contradicts what they said. This is what I did, Pure and Simple.
Why do you have "the vulcan data" as your custom user title? Your arguments are neither logical nor well backed.
Originally posted by h1a8Other than the fact that Juggernaut was pushing hulk, who was stated to be stronger than he's ever been, just like he always had. If juggernauts strength was always a constant you'd think that even he would have problems accomplishing the same level of success he'd had in the past. But he was managing to push the "even stronger" Hulk backwards. Meaning that whatever Hulk's strength was increased by, so was Juggernauts to remain at that constant.
I disagree. Even if what you are saying is true then it's moot anyway.
Why? Because "Potential is meaningless if it remains untapped". Since there was no where on panel where it showed Juggs increasing his strength (his bios don't even mention this but they mention it for Hulk, SS, etc.) then he either must not know about it or really can't do it. So anyway you look at it, Juggs won't be doing that here in the forum battle.
Which shows that his strength seems to go up to what he needs it to. which means that him being right is not moot.
Originally posted by Creshosk No its not what you did, all you did was present more speculative unbacked opinions of yours. this is the circular reasoning fallacy. You're using your own assumptions as proof of your claims.Why do you have "the vulcan data" as your custom user title? Your arguments are neither logical nor well backed._Other than the fact that Juggernaut was pushing hulk, who was stated to be stronger than he's ever been, just like he always had. If juggernauts strength was always a constant you'd think that even he would have problems accomplishing the same level of success he'd had in the past. But he was managing to push the "even stronger" Hulk backwards. Meaning that whatever Hulk's strength was increased by, so was Juggernauts to remain at that constant.Which shows that his strength seems to go up to what he needs it to. which means that him being right is not moot.Um, Juggs strength isn't what kept him moving forward. It was his magical enchantment to not be stopped once he starts walking. That is what was amping itself. not his strength.
Originally posted by Creshosk
No its not what you did, all you did was present more speculative unbacked opinions of yours. this is the circular reasoning fallacy. You're using your own assumptions as proof of your claims.Why do you have "the vulcan data" as your custom user title? Your arguments are neither logical nor well backed.
Other than the fact that Juggernaut was pushing hulk, who was stated to be stronger than he's ever been, just like he always had. If juggernauts strength was always a constant you'd think that even he would have problems accomplishing the same level of success he'd had in the past. But he was managing to push the "even stronger" Hulk backwards. Meaning that whatever Hulk's strength was increased by, so was Juggernauts to remain at that constant.Which shows that his strength seems to go up to what he needs it to. which means that him being right is not moot.
Juggs unstoppability has nothing to do with his strength. His bios seperate the two powers.
Hmmm. Without BFR... Wonder Woman would have a very tough time here. I don't think using the Lasso to control him would work since he has a formidable protection against mind tampering and mind control with his helmet on. The magic of Cytorrak might very well protect him from the Lasso's own magical power. Unless someone can show her Lasso overcoming magic on that level, I wouldn't count on it personally.
I theorized about Wonder Woman maybe tying up Juggernaut completely in the Lasso also, which would end up in a win for her... but a magical being tore up her lasso. Don't know if Juggernaut could, but between a magical manifestation of Paul Bunyan and the unstoppable Juggernaut, I'd still go with the Juggernaut.
Maybe use her lasso as a whip and whiplash Juggernaut's eyes? I think Juggernaut's forcefield has been depicted as protecting him completely sometimes and sometimes not. I remember Shatterstar stabbing Juggernaut's eyes (which only managed to piss him off, but still...) in an X-Force comic.
Would sticking him in rubble with no leverage at all and tying him up with her lasso be allowed? Kind of a reinforced Spidey concrete trap scenario? Or is that a BFR? Anyway, I'd still think it'd be quite hard for her to accomplish that without Juggs fighting her all the way. Heck. Without BFR, I'm not sure what Superman would even do against Juggernaut.
Originally posted by fangirl101You have proof of this?
Um, Juggs strength isn't what kept him moving forward. It was his magical enchantment to not be stopped once he starts walking. That is what was amping itself. not his strength.
Originally posted by h1a8And you have it in the bio where it says that in such instances its that magical enchantment rather than another one?
Juggs unstoppability has nothing to do with his strength. His bios seperate the two powers.
You two are grasping at straws.
"It wasn't his strength that was used in a strangth feat!" And you expect me to swallow such bullshit?
Originally posted by fangirl101
Um, Juggs strength isn't what kept him moving forward. It was his magical enchantment to not be stopped once he starts walking. That is what was amping itself. not his strength.
It was Juggernaut's strength that helped him start to push Hulk back from a stand still. His unstoppability doesn't come into play unless he is already moving.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Hmmm. Without BFR... Wonder Woman would have a very tough time here. I don't think using the Lasso to control him would work since he has a formidable protection against mind tampering and mind control with his helmet on. The magic of Cytorrak might very well protect him from the Lasso's own magical power. Unless someone can show her Lasso overcoming magic on that level, I wouldn't count on it personally.I theorized about Wonder Woman maybe tying up Juggernaut completely in the Lasso also, which would end up in a win for her... but a magical being tore up her lasso. Don't know if Juggernaut could, but between a magical manifestation of Paul Bunyan and the unstoppable Juggernaut, I'd still go with the Juggernaut.
Maybe use her lasso as a whip and whiplash Juggernaut's eyes? I think Juggernaut's forcefield has been depicted as protecting him completely sometimes and sometimes not. I remember Shatterstar stabbing Juggernaut's eyes (which only managed to piss him off, but still...) in an X-Force comic.
Would sticking him in rubble with no leverage at all and tying him up with her lasso be allowed? Kind of a reinforced Spidey concrete trap scenario? Or is that a BFR? Anyway, I'd still think it'd be quite hard for her to accomplish that without Juggs fighting her all the way. Heck. Without BFR, I'm not sure what Superman would even do against Juggernaut.
No one in comic history has broken the lasso.
Show me what you are talking about.