Originally posted by srankmissingninI dunno, is there a section i nthe respect thread devoted t owolverines martial art talents? I know he's extremely good but ironfist is practically always training....but I dont know enough about ironfist to make that judgement
Iron Fist has a truck load more of raw damage out put and versatility, but in terms of pure martial skill, he isn't on the same level as Wolverine.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ And what makes you believe that?
Danny's been beaten by Cat (he's also beaten him but still). Wolverine's owned Shang Chi. Danny was beaten by Jungo. Wolverine almost killed Jungo. Danny's stalemated Daredevil. Wolverine's put Daredevil in a full nelson in three panels.
^ You're kidding me, right?
Besides, half the stuff you listed is taken completely out of context. Iron Fist was beaten by Cat when he was distracted. He wasn't beaten straight-up. Shang Chi may have been owned by Wolverine, but as a display of skill between Shang Chi and Elektra suggested, I doubt he would get so "owned" again:
http://img228.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vselektra1b3zx.jpg
http://img228.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vselektra1c7jm.jpg
http://img232.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vselektra1d2fe.jpg
http://img206.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vselektra1e8gp.jpg
Who's Jungo? Did you mean Junzo? The guy that beat Iron Fist AFTER he stole Danny's power? Not to mention that the only evidence that Wolverine almost killed Junzo was from a 3rd party observation by depowered Danny and nowhere did I see Wolverine even tag Junzo once. I didn't cut off the last scan, mind you, this was taken from Jinzin's respect thread:
http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/6954/ironfistjuno2fs5.jpg
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/2227/ironfistjuno7db5.jpg
http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/2128/ironfistjuno8nx0.jpg
Danny stalemated Daredevil trying to emulate DD's style to not blow his cover. Wolverine put DD in a full-nelson AFTER telling him that she was a third Typhoid Mary. Eminently arguable that Daredevil was confused at that point and not really fighting at that point in their conversation:
http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/546/marvelcomicspresents151qe0.jpg
And considering that the following scans represent the only actual fight between Danny and Wolverine that I can recall... (an exhausted Danny, mind you), I'm still baffled by your suggestion that Wolverine is on a whole other level from Iron Fist:
http://img84.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ironfist15enterthexmen070xc.jpg
http://img84.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ironfist15enterthexmen085nz.jpg
http://img84.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ironfist15enterthexmen094nr.jpg
http://img142.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ironfist15enterthexmen106um.jpg
http://img88.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ironfist15enterthexmen113wb.jpg
http://img88.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ironfist15enterthexmen121zp.jpg
I know I won't change your mind, so no use in debating. I'm just showing everybody else what you're referring to and making my own opinions known. Other people can judge.
Logan does not get past 4.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
And considering that the following scans represent the only actual fight between Danny and Wolverine that I can recall... (an exhausted Danny, mind you), I'm still baffled by your suggestion that Wolverine is on a whole other level from Iron Fist:
http://img84.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ironfist15enterthexmen070xc.jpg
http://img84.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ironfist15enterthexmen085nz.jpg
http://img84.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ironfist15enterthexmen094nr.jpg
http://img142.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ironfist15enterthexmen106um.jpg
http://img88.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ironfist15enterthexmen113wb.jpg
http://img88.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ironfist15enterthexmen121zp.jpgI know I won't change your mind, so no use in debating. I'm just showing everybody else what you're referring to and making my own opinions known. Other people can judge.
Logan does not get past 4.
Neither of them were in tip top shape, Wolverine was still on a recovery bed when the X-Men were approaching Earth after having been punched into space by Jahf. I don't think he even had a healing factor written into his character by this point, nor his skill set for fighting ability for that matter.
Are you inclined to believe that Wolverine would fair as such in a rematch had it taken place even 5 years later? This was afterall far before Wolverine became the samurai/skill related character we came to know him as, and where it concerns popularity.. well he was new, and it was IF's comic.
In any event the only two things I'll say are this, Junzo managed to punk Iron Fist in straight h2h combat, twice. He didn't even use the iron fist except to intimidate Danny after already dropping him to the ground.
While it's true that the only thing we have to go off of is Danny's spectation of the fight to say Wolverine was winning, I'm inclined to believe him, Wolverine was pressing Junzo from start to finish, and had him resorting to his elemental control, at no point was Wolverine worried, nor was it implied in third person so I don't see how he wasn't winning that fight.
The only thing we really have to go off of to examine how a more current Wolverine would do with IF in something resembling h2h happened in that What If, and IF wasn't fairing so hot. 😬
jinzin, wolverine was COMPLETELY outclassed in that fight. literally like a training dummy for IF. And IF stated on panel how bad of shape he was in, Wolverine didn't seem to be at all below peak form, he seems so eager too to take IF's punches, hardly something an injured or sickened wolverine would seek.
Originally posted by Starscream M
jinzin, wolverine was COMPLETELY outclassed in that fight. literally like a training dummy for IF. And IF stated on panel how bad of shape he was in, Wolverine didn't seem to be at all below peak form, he seems so eager too to take IF's punches, hardly something an injured or sickened wolverine would seek.
😕
You... didn't comprehend that post at all did you?
I didn't say that Wolverine didn't fair poorly.
And it's not up for debate, when the X-Men started heading home from the Shiar Wolverine had been punched hard enough to reach escape velocity, he didn't have a healing factor written into his character yet and it was a miracle he survived at all. Even if he's boasting about being able to take the punches of a "normal guy" that doesn't mean he was in good shape, far from it. It's called continuity. Just because Wolverine wasn't stated as being less than 100% doesn't mean he was, I'm guessing the Marvel staff assumed people would be reading X-Men books if they cared, since you know, Wolverine doesn't meander around in the Fang costume all the time. 😕
Originally posted by jinzin
In any event the only two things I'll say are this, Junzo managed to punk Iron Fist in straight h2h combat, twice. He didn't even use the iron fist except to intimidate Danny after already dropping him to the ground.
Originally posted by jinzinYou see Wolverine winning this fight in these scans? Wolverine doesn't even touch him once:
While it's true that the only thing we have to go off of is Danny's spectation of the fight to say Wolverine was winning, I'm inclined to believe him, Wolverine was pressing Junzo from start to finish, and had him resorting to his elemental control, at no point was Wolverine worried, nor was it implied in third person so I don't see how he wasn't winning that fight.
And what actually happens during the cutoff and afterwards anyway? I'd like to see how the fight resolved itself.
Originally posted by jinzinOh, here we go again with more non-canon ridiculousness. I know you inserted plenty of alternate universe Wolvie stuff in your respect thread, but on vs. debates, it's prohibited. So knock it off already. A more reasonable source to what would happen from a non-chi using Iron Fist going H2H against Wolverine would be the canon 616 on-panel fight where they ACTUALLY fought H2H and Danny was drained! 🙄
The only thing we really have to go off of to examine how a more current Wolverine would do with IF in something resembling h2h happened in that What If, and IF wasn't fairing so hot. 😬
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
What are you talking about? The first time Junzo "punks" a depowered Iron Fist, he used his elemental wind powers. Not only that, he even comments how Danny is allowing his emotions to get the best of him, since he's worried over Misty. The latter idea being equally potent in the "second punking," since this is after he was shown Misty's severed bionic arm:
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/167/ironfistjunoga9.jpg
http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/6954/ironfistjuno2fs5.jpg
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You see Wolverine winning this fight in these scans? Wolverine doesn't even touch him once:
http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/906/ironfistjuno6im9.jpg
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/2227/ironfistjuno7db5.jpg
http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/2128/ironfistjuno8nx0.jpgAnd what actually happens during the cutoff and afterwards anyway? I'd like to see how the fight resolved itself.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Oh, here we go again with more non-canon ridiculousness. I know you inserted plenty of alternate universe Wolvie stuff in your respect thread, but on vs. debates, it's prohibited. So knock it off already. A more reasonable source to what would happen from a non-chi using Iron Fist going H2H against Wolverine would be the canon 616 on-panel fight where they ACTUALLY fought H2H and Danny was drained! 🙄
Hey, all I'm saying is that the What If comic has more relievence with both characters fully written out beforehand than the IF comic which happened before Wolverine got his powers OR skill set.
And while Fist may have been tired, Wolverine was not even NEAR 100% so talking up Danny's fatigue is meaningless.
It was a good fight for the time but hardly representative of Wolverine as we came to know more about him.
What If was.
So I'll ask again, do you think Wolverine would have faired NEARLY as poorly a second time around even half a decade later?
Originally posted by jinzinyou're hopeless dood
😕You... didn't comprehend that post at all did you?
I didn't say that Wolverine didn't fair poorly.
And it's not up for debate, when the X-Men started heading home from the Shiar Wolverine had been punched hard enough to reach escape velocity, he didn't have a healing factor written into his character yet and it was a miracle he survived at all. Even if he's boasting about being able to take the punches of a "normal guy" that doesn't mean he was in good shape, far from it. It's called continuity. Just because Wolverine wasn't stated as being less than 100% doesn't mean he was, I'm guessing the Marvel staff assumed people would be reading X-Men books if they cared, since you know, Wolverine doesn't meander around in the Fang costume all the time. 😕
just because Wolverine was injured previously, does not mean he was still injured when he faced IF. by the looks of it, he was as healthy as can be. you're seriously grasping...
many times a character would be injured in one issue, and fine the next. the writers assume readers don't have to be shown a scene of their healing every time.
Jinzin, What If? comics and alternate universes have ZERO relevance in vs. debates. Stop wasting thread space over it for goodness sake. You don't like the vs. forum rules, then petition them. Stop wasting everyone's time with alternate universe babble. The fact that you have to resort to alternate universes vs actual on-panel 616 fights is ridiculous. You have better arguments up your sleeves than that.
Wolverine managing to replicate Iron Fist completely depowered and distraught over Misty is not one of them.
🙄
And I don't see Junzo being stabbed in the shoulder. We could easily answer this question if you show everybody the scans of what happens with the rest of the fight where it's been cut off. If Junzo is standing there with a wound on his shoulder, there's no circumstantial theorizing necessary. Just post the rest of the fight.
Originally posted by Starscream M
you're hopeless doodjust because Wolverine was injured previously, does not mean he was still injured when he faced IF. by the looks of it, he was as healthy as can be. you're seriously grasping...
many times a character would be injured in one issue, and fine the next. the writers assume readers don't have to be shown a scene of their healing every time.
Yes because a man who doesn't have a healing factor written into his character can shrug off things like being punched into space, on a bed covered in bandages like a mummy, and just getting to walking around before they got back to earth. 🙄
Just more nonsensical robbing of the ben of the doubt from Wolverine.
HE WASN'T A HEALING FACTOR USING CHARACTER YET... Again reading comprehension ftw.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Jinzin, What If? comics and alternate universes have ZERO relevance in vs. debates. Stop wasting thread space over it for goodness sake. You don't like the vs. forum rules, then petition them. Stop wasting everyone's time with alternate universe babble. The fact that you have to resort to alternate universes vs actual on-panel 616 fights is ridiculous. You have better arguments up your sleeves than that.
Little, perhaps. I could accept "little" but the fact is that there's numerous Exiles/one shot/alternate universe panels that describe various characters as being mirror images of their counterparts in all aspects (save morality, skin color, costume, etc etc). Zero though? Explain.
They're the same characters, same powers, same histories by all accounts, the only thing different is a divergence in the timeline after EOTS started.
Aside from losing to Wolverine did Iron Fist show that he was in some way less capible than his 616 counterpart?
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Wolverine managing to replicate Iron Fist completely depowered and distraught over Misty is not one of them.
🙄
Originally posted by OneDumbG0I said arguable didn't I? What we do know is that Wolverine was able to get his hand within claw range for a stab, whether he did or not, was his perogative. At any rate, Wolverine did exponentially better against Junzo than Danny did. There isn't a rest of the fight, the City of KunLun had been raised in Paris, Junzo and Danny were directly linked to it, Danny got stabbed through the chest by his uncle, distracting Logan and Junzo from their fight. IF temporarily died....a..again. Kun Lun went away, Junzo took off, and that was that.
And I don't see Junzo being stabbed in the shoulder. We could easily answer this question if you show everybody the scans of what happens with the rest of the fight where it's been cut off. If Junzo is standing there with a wound on his shoulder, there's no circumstantial theorizing necessary. Just post the rest of the fight.
Originally posted by jinzinOh for pete's sake. Do I really have to talk to you like you're an idiot? Fine. Please direct yourself to the Forum Rules section and read this rule right here:
Perhaps you would like to elaborate as to why you feel that it has ZERO relivence here?Little, perhaps. I could accept "little" but the fact is that there's numerous Exiles/one shot/alternate universe panels that describe various characters as being mirror images of their counterparts in all aspects (save morality, skin color, costume, etc etc). Zero though? Explain.
They're the same characters, same powers, same histories by all accounts, the only thing different is a divergence in the timeline after EOTS started.Aside from losing to Wolverine did Iron Fist show that he was in some way less capible than his 616 counterpart?
No Non-canon Sources
Non-canon sources are invalid for evidence. With rare exceptions, comics not in continuity such as Elseworlds, What Ifs, or alternate universes are not used for evidence in debates of a particular mainstream character.
A canon source is one that is regarded as being 'in continuity'. In the example of Star Trek; instances from the series and movies can be used, but books are definitely out. Comic book crossovers are usually unusable as they ignore common sense most of the time (DC vs. Marvel is certainly unusable in some cases in our debates!).
This principle extends to characters with multiple versions, alternate timelines, etc. Unless specified by the thread starter, only current-version canon feats are allowed.
And I'd still like to see scans of the rest of the Junzo fight. That way we can all see for ourselves whether Junzo was stabbed in the shoulder or not.
Originally posted by jinzinso, you've somehow deduced Wolverine was still injured despite him never being so eager to be knocked around
Yes because a man who doesn't have a healing factor written into his character can shrug off things like being punched into space, on a bed covered in bandages like a mummy, and just getting to walking around before they got back to earth. 🙄Just more nonsensical robbing of the ben of the doubt from Wolverine.
HE WASN'T A HEALING FACTOR USING CHARACTER YET... Again reading comprehension ftw.
gee, that sure sounds logical...when people are injured, not only do they not rest, they talk shit and try to get their opponents to punch them in the face 🙄
Originally posted by OneDumbG0I know you can't see me because you have me on ignore... but seriously... the "what ifs" are alot more complicated than a simple dismissal out of sheer ignorance states.
Oh for pete's sake. Do I really have to talk to you like you're an idiot? Fine. Please direct yourself to the Forum Rules section and read this rule right here:No Non-canon Sources
Non-canon sources are invalid for evidence. With rare exceptions, comics not in continuity such as Elseworlds, What Ifs, or alternate universes are not used for evidence in debates of a particular mainstream character.A canon source is one that is regarded as being 'in continuity'. In the example of Star Trek; instances from the series and movies can be used, but books are definitely out. Comic book crossovers are usually unusable as they ignore common sense most of the time (DC vs. Marvel is certainly unusable in some cases in our debates!).
This principle extends to characters with multiple versions, alternate timelines, etc. Unless specified by the thread starter, only current-version canon feats are allowed.
And I'd still like to see scans of the rest of the Junzo fight. That way we can all see for ourselves whether Junzo was stabbed in the shoulder or not.
Originally posted by Starscream MIf you actually knew what logic was you wouldn't try to apply it to a fictional characters actions. Logic is not an all binding universal law. Nor is it always applicable to a persons behavior and or actions. Especially when emotions are involved.
so, you've somehow deduced Wolverine was still injured despite him never being so eager to be knocked aroundgee, that sure sounds logical...when people are injured, not only do they not rest, they talk shit and try to get their opponents to punch them in the face 🙄
Originally posted by Starscream M
so, you've somehow deduced Wolverine was still injured despite him never being so eager to be knocked aroundgee, that sure sounds logical...when people are injured, not only do they not rest, they talk shit and try to get their opponents to punch them in the face 🙄
Wolverine jumped right back up to fight WWH after getting brain damaged and pwned.... You're going to tell me he'd be inclined NOT to fight back when he thought Jean Grey was in trouble...😐
