I didn't mean to imply that it was unconditional, not that i ever thought it would be. My only point really, and it was made more in jest than anything else, was that when I was last here, you had a little more patience with him. But like its been said, patience wears thin. I just haven't seen you insult someone (like that) in a long time. Not that i care, lol, i think it's funny.
And yes, I'm sure he'll come back with something reminiscent of previous posts.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
That is irrelevant as she is nothing fighting one on one here
You claimed that Zannah was only able to fend off Sarro because of Johun getting in the way. I have proven that that is not the case, as she was able to fend off Sarro without being killed right away. Is it that hard to admit that you were wrong?
Originally posted by Lightsnake
He was practically a child and a Padawan at the point of Ruusan, the only battle he might have had a chance to BE in when they started using children was one where there were noticeably no Sith Lords fighting.
Try again.
Nope. Johun was nineteen at the final battle of Ruusan. Sarro was a year older than him so he would have been twenty at the final battle.
Try again.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Stark Hyperspace, Yinchorri rebellion...
all of them had seen lots of action up close and personal. Especially Kit.
See when they took downw the Bounty Hunter's Guild for one
None of which were as prolonged or intensive as the campaign on Ruusan. None of which featured any Sith.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Three experienced Jedi accustomed to fighting as a group unlike with Sarro and Johun where Zannah ONLY survived because of Johun.
Accustomed to fighting as a group against droids and mercenaries, not Sith. And as I've already proved the "Zannah ONLY survived because of Johun" is false.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Bane had just been injured, was clearly enraged and thought she betrayed him. Why wouldn't she be prepared when she'd especially just have STUDIED HIS MOVES? I wonder!
Bane was an intelligent, rational man and Zannah did not take any action against him herself. She expected him to demand an explanation, not simply rush her. Bane himself later reflects that under normal circumstances (without the orbalisks boosting his rage), demanding an explanation is exactly what he would have done.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Wait, wait, wait...knowing they're fighting her, they won't be ready with the Force? When she apparently couldn't do this from the bat to JOHUN? When she only survived BECAUSE of Johun?
False, as I've repeatedly proved.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
They won't be boosted tremendously? They don't need to be. None of them are just knights and all have the backing to be at least as good as a BM empowered Sarro...and haven't been 'trained to combat one like Zannah?' All have displayed that they're proficient in saber abilities-I trust Mace's word over yours, btw, and Yoda's- and Zannah's style is Soresu...all three of them are intimately familiar with the best Soresu user who ever lived.
Proficient in sabre abilities, except that they've never fought a Sith and went through their entire training never believing they'd have to fight anyone using a lightsabre. Again, it's like comparing a fencer with someone who's faced opponents in actual combat with swords.
They're not familar with the sabrestaff version of Soresu.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yes? Prove it? Zannah's force feats are...sith sorcery which she's only used on non-Force sensitives and an unempowered distracted Jedi-since when do Force Shields worked when you're not FOCUSING ON THE BATTLE?
Zannah is laughably inexperienced, too, btw. Far moreso than three veteran Jedi masters
Plus waltzing right into the Jedi Archives while cloaking herself in a fake light-side aura that fooled everyone there, and later cloaking both herself and Bane to hide from a Jedi search party.
Originally posted by chilled monkey
You claimed that Zannah was only able to fend off Sarro because of Johun getting in the way. I have proven that that is not the case, as she was able to fend off Sarro without being killed right away. Is it that hard to admit that you were wrong?
Nope. Johun was nineteen at the final battle of Ruusan. Sarro was a year older than him so he would have been twenty at the final battle.
Try again.
None of which were as prolonged or intensive as the campaign on Ruusan. None of which featured any Sith.
Accustomed to fighting as a group against droids and mercenaries, not Sith. And as I've already proved the "Zannah ONLY survived because of Johun" is false.
Bane was an intelligent, rational man and Zannah did not take any action against him herself. She expected him to demand an explanation, not simply rush her. Bane himself later reflects that under normal circumstances (without the orbalisks boosting his rage), demanding an explanation is exactly what he would have done.
False, as I've repeatedly proved.
Proficient in sabre abilities, except that they've never fought a Sith and went through their entire training never believing they'd have to fight anyone using a lightsabre. Again, it's like comparing a fencer with someone who's faced opponents in actual combat with swords.
They're not familar with the sabrestaff version of Soresu.
Plus waltzing right into the Jedi Archives while cloaking herself in a fake light-side aura that fooled everyone there, and later cloaking both herself and Bane to hide from a Jedi search party.
Zannah has not demonstrated the ability with a saber to put herself above Agen Kolar alone, who, while using a rather vicious attack style with incorporated defense, has none of Sarro's hindrances, plus Kit Fisto, who as we see from the Cestus Deception is an incredibly fast and skilled fighter and Saesee who we know is one as well. None are going to be unfocused for her to pull of sorcery and she can't trick them into tripping one another up. When she loses her footing, it won't be a clumsy Niman user she's got to benefit her but another veteran warrior bisecting her at the waist
Hola, people. Sorry for my short absence- I had some personal stuff to do, so I couldn't post in a few days. But I'm back. 😛
Nebaris, other than making extremely comical references to myself, didn't 'bother' refuting my argument. Meh. I guess it's difficult to make claims such as Zannah > Dooku without anything to back it up, and then actually supporting that!
Now for Monkey's stuff.
Originally posted by chilled monkey
Precisely. They SPARRED with their peers. People sparring are not trying to kill each other. They trained in lightsabre duelling basically for tradition and to get a deeper understanding of how to use it properly, not because they needed to know how to battle a lightsabre-wielding foe.
First of all, 'sparring' with someone- when using an obviously non-lethal, training-based lightsaber- is about the same as actually fighting with that person, as you can afford to use the full degree of your ability in order to defeat said person in combat (for example, Anakin and Obi-Wan were stated to have 'countless' hours of sparring together).
You've hit the jackpot on the other one. These said Jedi had not only 1000 years of training themselves in order to better their knowledge and, as you put it, 'understanding' of the lightsaber- in addition, they were hardly lacking in lightsaber ability, as techniques used to take down blaster-wielding foes could, quite easily, be made to counter lightsabers. For example- Obi-Wan was a practicioner of the form most designed to combat blaster weapons, but he was- quite easily- one of the best lightsaber duelists of all time, despite not having, logically, as much experience as the Old Republic dewds in lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat. Obviously, the Old Jedi's techniques may be more specialized- but that is NOT enough to put yourself on the same level as Jedi with far better understanding of the force and of combat tactics.
Originally posted by chilled monkey
That's like comparing a swordsman who grew up and was trained to use a sword in an era when sword skills were vital for survival with a fencer who studies swordsmanship as a hobby. Which is going to be best in actual combat?
Poor logic. The PT Jedi extensively trained in lightsaber combat, and, indeed, had a very fair amount of lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat; they had displayed on multiple occasions that they were very much capable of fighting other people with lightsabers, despite their 'lack of experience'.
Originally posted by chilled monkey
Yes, they "obviously had experience with fighting people wielding lightsabers." Just no-where near to the same level as Sarro, Raskta and the Jedi of their era. No-one is claiming that Kit, Agen etc were useless swordsmen. It's just common sense that the Jedi whose training was focused around battling lightsabre-wielders and have extensive experience in doing so, will be better at duelling than Jedi who went through their training never expecting to have to fight another lightsabre-wielder and have comparitively very little experience in doing so in actual combat. Why is this so hard to understand?
I know you're not Nebaris, but this seems to be very much like one of his claims. I'll tell you what- the Jedi of old had a lesser understanding of both the sword and the force, had worse training (the war would likely necessiate each Jedi's training to be more rushed), but more experience and specialization in fighting with other foes in a blade. That's their only advantage, and it isn't sufficient to make up for the PT Jedi's advantages.
For example, take Johun. A Knight in an era where lightsaber dueling was, supposedly, at it's best- and he was a clumsly idiot with no skill whatsoever.
Sorry. While Raskta is, most probably, superior to any one of the Jedi Team, there simply isn't evidence to put Sarro on their level, much less beyond it.
Originally posted by chilled monkey
You seem very biased againt the 'Old Republic' Jedi to me.
Admittedly, I don't like Old Republic Jedi. But really biased in my arguments? I don't think so.
She's better than any one of them, individually (in my opinion), although they come very close to her. However, she'll be curbstomped if she fought all three at once.
Also note that I'm excluding Mace, because I don't think anyone here doubts the fact that he is, quite cleanly, superior to the AoL Jedi.
Well, she was rumored to have killed as many Sith as the Thought Bomb had, meaning that she was a highly apt Sith-killer (although there's no way to gauge the extent of the abilities of the Sith who fought her). In addition, she was the best lightsaber duelist of the Order of that time, and was capable of, individually, forcing Bane back and preventing him from launching an adequate counterattack.
I think that's enough to place her above Kit, Tiin, and Kolar, who, while extraordinarily gifted duelists, didn't quite display that level of power.
Originally posted by Master CrimzonFor one the sith of banes times were jokes(except him of course). I'll substantiate later when i get home.
Well, she was rumored to have killed as many Sith as the Thought Bomb had, meaning that she was a highly apt Sith-killer (although there's no way to gauge the extent of the abilities of the Sith who fought her). In addition, she was the best lightsaber duelist of the Order of that time, and was capable of, individually, forcing Bane back and preventing him from launching an adequate counterattack.I think that's enough to place her above Kit, Tiin, and Kolar, who, while extraordinarily gifted duelists, didn't quite display that level of power.
This has probably been refuted earlier but I can't be bothered to look.
Everyone seems too be convinced that Mace and Bane are gonna square off and leave Zannah to take on 3 opponants. I find this to be extremely unlikely. Not only is it tactically a shit concept ( on Banes part) but also doesn't match up with the personalities of the participants.
A much more likely scenario would be that Bane (due to orbalisks and recklessness) would do exactly the same thing that Sidious did, which is: attempt to Blitz them. Its been established on another thread that Bane's speed is equal or close to equal that of Sidious' speed (he would have blitzed Raskta and Farfalla if not for the BM) so I see no reason why he wouldn't be able to do the same as Sids. But to placate the anti-Banes here lets say that Bane only manages to kill 2 of the jedi in his blitz. It would then be 2 on 2. The remaining jedi would probably go for Zannah after that, lealising that she could blindside them and that Banes too good to beat. In my opinion she would proceed to either smash him in the force or beat him in the (long, probs) duel. Meanwhile Bane and Mace would be deadlocked, but with Zannah to relieve him, Bane should be spared the hour long duel (which he would win).
It would be interesting to see the outcome of a force duel though. Would Bane and Zannah be enough to beat the jedi team or would they get swamped by the lightside?
Your assertion, Exodus, is 'reasonable', though, it is based on two factors:
1. That Bane is somehow superior to Mace in lightsaber combat
2. That Zannah can defeat two skilled Jedi at once.
Both of these assertions are faulty and honestly need to be backed up. First of all, Mace was capable of outdueling Darth Sidious with similar tactics to the ones that he could use to defeat Bane in combat (look at Sidious/Bane vs. Mace/Yoda- I made a pretty long explanation of a potential fight between Mace and Bane). That is, he can remain on the defensive for most of the duel, utilizing Vaapad's unique properties in order to gain the advantages granted to Bane via the dark side, similarly to how he "Accepted" Sidious' "furious speed" in combat (RotS novelization). Therefore, he will be able to match Bane blow-to-blow, even more effectively than he did against Sidious, thanks to the fact that Bane is (albeit slightly) slower than Sidious, and his immense strength will be countered by Mace's own advanced physical conditioning and power. It will not be long until Mace locates Bane's shatterpoint, which will allow him to, potentially, remove Bane's hand or disarm him in some sort of manner, which might have a better chance of causing him to achieve victory, due to the fact that Bane is immensely reckless and usually sacrifices virtually all defenses in combat (as seen when he nearly got his hand lopped off by Johun). Bane would certainly win in the force fight, but the actual saber duel? I highly doubt he can win.
It seems to be the opinion of most that every single Jedi on Mace's team > Sarro, or at least rivals him. He was capable of, when empowered by battle meditation, outclassing Zannah- I'm very certain that two formidable Jedi, like Kit Fisto and Agen Kolar, will do very nasty things to her.
Your assertion, Exodus, is 'reasonable', though, it is based on two factors:1. That Bane is somehow superior to Mace in lightsaber combat
2. That Zannah can defeat two skilled Jedi at once.
No, its based on thes two factors:
1. That Bane can do what Sidious can do
2. That Zannah can take on one skilled jedi by herself.
Neither of these seem to be a stretch or unresonable.
Both of these assertions are faulty and honestly need to be backed up.
Heres my Bane vs Mace opinion
Bane Without orbalisk:
1.Force
2.Sabers
3.All outForce: Bane has already shown himself to be incredably capable with the force at this time. Some of his feats involve: Showing mastery of Sith lightning after 1 hour at a degree of Darth Sidious (debatable, Destroying the roof of the Lehon temple (much better than what Dooku did in AotC) despite exhaustion from battle and 3 days without food, killing the Master of the best Sith school like he was a bug, overcoming a powerful poison, Beating Kaan's mindpower's, Force pushing hard enough to vaperise bones, surviving the Thought bomb ( through unknown means and of course his planet killing thing.
Mace on the overhand has been able to force crush a non-forcesensitive Grevious's chest and has shown some skill with TK, which isn't that great in combat.
Bane definately wins.
Sabers: Although Bane is very skilled in combat, Mace has the upper hand through his use of Shatterpoint and Vaapad against which Bane has no defence of previous knowledge of.
All-out: Could go either way depending on what happens.
quote:
Bane with orbalisk:
1.Force
2. Sabers
3.All OutForce: Bane has all of the above feats plus an extra 10 years of training, has gained the ability to influence things on a sub-atomic level and has the added boost of the orbalisks. He wins easily.
Saber: With the additional effects of the orbalisks and the extra 10 years, I would put Bane at the very least on the level of RotS Sidious. Mave's Vaapad might spell trouble for Bane but I think not. The way that Vaapad works is that it feeds off the darkside power of Mace and his opponant and creates a super-conductive loop against the enemy, using the darkside against him/her. However, Bane's orbalisks feed off darkside energy thus it is highly possble that Vaapad might well work in Bane's favour instead of against him. And also Mace might not have enough time to find Banes shatterpoint as he had trouble finding Sidious' and Bane doesn't have the distraction of Anakin to create one (which was Sidious' SP in the book). Thus I find it highly probable that Bane can win.
All-out: Bane for the above reasons.
The whole 'orbalisks feed on darkness' thing does not change the fact that Vaapad uses the dark side energy generated by the opponent in order to gain the physical advantages of said opponent- I honestly can't see why the orbalisks will 'prevent' that from happening, though this whole line of thought is incredibly complex and hard-to-analyze. The orbalisks may feed off the darkness within the person, but does it prevent that person from generating dark side energy? It would appear like the orbalisks feed off the 'regular', ever-present energy instead of the massive amount of energy generated by fighting. Can you honestly prove that Bane doesn't generate dark side energy while fighting? I doubt it.
As for the subsequent stuff:
1. Can Bane do what Sidious did? It's not far-fetched. He isn't quite as agile or as fast as Sidious, and I doubt his offense is quite as effective or refined, but he has the massive advantage of the orbalisks that can shield him from attacked by the Jedi. It's possible that he can, and it's possible that he can't. But if he does, I daresay he'll manage to slaughter one or two Jedi. Which brings us to your next point.
2. Agen Kolar appears to be the most skilled Jedi on the team (he was hailed by the omniscent narrator on the same scale as Mace Windu and Anakin Skywalker), so he would most likely survive. It's very much likely that he is superior to Sarro, who was capable of dominating Zannah. And if he can, I'm rather certain Kolar can do the same, and quite possibly defeat her. Unless, of course, she brings her mastery of the force into play.
The whole 'orbalisks feed on darkness' thing does not change the fact that Vaapad uses the dark side energy generated by the opponent in order to gain the physical advantages of said opponent- I honestly can't see why the orbalisks will 'prevent' that from happening, though this whole line of thought is incredibly complex and hard-to-analyze. The orbalisks may feed off the darkness within the person, but does it prevent that person from generating dark side energy? It would appear like the orbalisks feed off the 'regular', ever-present energy instead of the massive amount of energy generated by fighting. Can you honestly prove that Bane doesn't generate dark side energy while fighting? I doubt it.
Agreed. But that doesn't put mace above Bane, which is why I said that the duel would be very long indeed.
Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Agreed. But that doesn't put mace above Bane, which is why I said that the duel would be very long indeed.
No, it doesn't, but as I've proven, Bane will not be capable of penetrating Mace's defenses when he is empowered by Vaapad (which enables him to keep up with Mace), especially seeing as Mace is considerably more technically skilled than Bane, as depicted by his mastery/creation of Vaapad, and his mastery of multiple forms. These skills will nullify Bane's regular advantages in a lightsaber, and it will not prevent him from being disarm or incapacitated in some form thanks to Mace's Shatterpoint.
No, it doesn't, but as I've proven, Bane will not be capable of penetrating Mace's defenses when he is empowered by Vaapad (which enables him to keep up with Mace), especially seeing as Mace is considerably more technically skilled than Bane, as depicted by his mastery/creation of Vaapad, and his mastery of multiple forms. These skills will nullify Bane's regular advantages in a lightsaber, and it will not prevent him from being disarm or incapacitated in some form thanks to Mace's Shatterpoint.
Technical skill didn't seem to nullify anything when Bane faced Kas'im ( except ,you know, that whole 2 lightsaber thing).
Anyway,I agree partially thats why I think that the victor between Zannah and Kolar will determine the outcome of the match. Zannah could tank him in the force but Kolar might be able to win in 'sabers.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Considering from Zannah's own POV, she survives only because Johun's an idiot, her managing to hold Sarro off for a short time when he would have killed her prior if he was fighting alone means...? That he was going to kill her eventually anyways?
Precisely. At last you admit it; "he was going to kill her EVENTUALLY." Not right away as you were claiming before.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Why do the standards always change here?
The Clone Wars were longer than the Ruusan Campaign, by the by. And certainly more intensive if we take GL's word from Shatterpoint's forward.They did feature quite a few Dark Jedi, too...Dooku's little army of Dark Acolytes? Not Sith, sure, but the onus would be on you to prove up how powerful the Sith Sarro had faced. Given what we saw of Johun, a proper Sith would've sliced him to ribbons ten years prior.
Not neccessarily. Remember Johun had spent those ten years focusing on being a diplomatic aide and had gotten rusty. It stated that he had put in only the bare minimum needed to maintain his skills. He was probably better ten years prior.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
And Dark Jedi, can't forget the Dark Jedi detail. Plus having trained rather diligently for such confrontation with Sith in the 13 years they'd learned since the Sith were back and the 3 in which they had to prepare to eventually face Dooku...
And as pointed out above, as the text practically points out, Zannah lasted as long as she did thanks to Johun. She manages to desperately hold Sarro off for a brief period before the Battle Meditation is stopped, but he was certainly going to kill her eventually.
At last we've gotten that established.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Says who, you? Kit engaged Ventress, who was a very proficient saberstaff user, all engaged Dark Acolytes-some of whom we know used Saber Staffs- and knew Jedi who fought with DBLs.
Zannah's weapon isn't unfamiliar to them. Neither is Soresu. All have personal experience training with the best Soresu master who ever lived, one has personally engaged a DBL user in combat, the others likely have, and all have companions who used saberstaffs.
This isn't helping Zannah much
I admit I didn't know a lot of that. Correct me if I'm wrong but as I recall Asajj's preferrence was for two sabres. I only know one case of her using a sabrestaff against Mace. She used two sabres against Kit, not a sabrestaff. Not to say that she couldn't wield a sabrestaff well, just that it wasn't her specialty
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Which is pretty basic Sith stuff that even Asajj "I'll do anything if you let me be a Sith" Ventress is able to duplicate and rather helped by the fact nobody tried to pierce said veil in the slightest. It's easy to hide when nobody's looking for you. If the Jedi tried to look deeper than stopping at Darovit being the Sith, they certainly would have found her. Heck, just incpecting the house would've done that.
Okay, fair enough.