Darth Bane + Darth Zannah Vs. Team Sent To Arrest Palpatine

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Oh, I dunno. I don't feel the novel to be superior at all to the novel- 'sides, you gotta look at some of the benefits of movies. Thrilling, intense action, dazzling visuals, acting, and an overall more engaging- if not quite as detailed an experience. I really don't think his movie self is annoying; I mean, in TPM, he was likeable. In AotC, I wanted to kill him. In the beginning of Revenge of the Sith, he was seriously a nice Jedi. For example; his conversation with Obi-Wan, him apologzing to him... sorry, lolz, I don't think someone needs to scream out something- like it is in the novel- for it to be understandable; Anakin became evil because of good reasons. Ironic, really.

Oh, and don't get me wrong- I like all Star Wars movies. But RotJ is simply, in my opinion, the worst one.

Heh. Let's ask people's opinions, eh? xD

Well, personally I did like Anakins fall and didn't like ROTJ as much as ROTS. I thought it was alright though.
What I really hated was Lando's outfit. You can't rule a country dressed like That!!!
Jerk.
'Set my Jabberwocky on you.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Slight issue with the Zannah issue there Faunus:
Zannah's Soresu kept her alive with Sarro and Johun only because Johun was a worthless idiot and Sarro couldn't slaughter her thanks to that. Two Jedi like Agen and Kit on her, both master swordsmen, experienced veterans accustomed to working together? That doesn't look good for Zannah.

'Trying desperately to wrestle thread back on-topic.'

Not exactly. While Johun's presence did work heavily to Zannah's advantage, she was able to fend off Sarro for a good amount of time when it was just one-on-one.

Now I agree that between them those guys could beat her, but they won't just cut her down like wheat.

All three of them are superior to Sarro and accomplished to fight in conjunction. How can Zannah take them on for any real amount of time together? She only survived so long to Johun.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
All three of them are superior to Sarro and accomplished to fight in conjunction. How can Zannah take them on for any real amount of time together? She only survived so long to Johun.

Nope, it was stated that Zannah could have killed Johun anytime. She deliberately left him alive because she realised that he was a bigger hindrance to his ally than he was to her.

And are they really superior to Sarro? I'm sure each of them was better in experience, overall Force power/ability etc, but Sarro was trained by seemingly the best duellist of their era (which was a lot more battle-oriented than the PT era). At the time Sarro was trained there were legions of Sith, so Jedi training would have included a lot more focus on lightsabre to lightsabre combat. By the time of the PT, Jedi almost exclusively focus on lightsabres for deflecting blasterfire.

Sure those guys are better Jedi, but are they better fighters? Heck, it is stated in the book that Raskta and Sarro focused almost entirely on combat ability, this left them vulnerable to Bane and Zannah's Force attacks/Sith sorcery. Would those guys really have focused that much on fighting ability alone?

I'd easily put Sarro (BM powered) above any of the three. The Jedi of his time were trained primarily to fight against opposing Force Users and lightsaber practitioners, and once their training was over, that's exactly what they did. They fought almost constantly in the most destructive war there had ever been, and likely ever will be, almost exclusively against lightsaber wielding Darksiders, with the end result of the war amounting to the survivors being better trained, battle hardened, and Sith-ready than nearly any other group of Jedi before or after them. Then of course there's the fact that the Jedi were described as vastly outnumbering the Sith, who were described as numbering in the 20,000s, whereas the PT Jedi were officially numbered just under ten thousand around the time of The Phantom Menace.

In other words, the Jedi Order of Sarro's time was far better trained and battle hardened than the Jedi Order of the PT times, far more specialised at fighting against other Force users and Lightsaber practitioners, and on top of that, were numbered far higher as well, and Sarro appears to have been one of the better Jedi of the time.

His ability with his double bladed lightsaber was highly renowned within his Order, to the point where it was believed that few beings in the Galaxy would be able to stand up against him in combat. He was described as being well over 2 metres tall with 150 kilos of raw muscle, yet still quick enough to "snatch a zess-fly out of the air." His technique was described as being more refined than Bane's (in obvious awe), and he was described as having elevated the art of combat to its purest and highest form, moving with the grace of a dancer, and executing his moves with "a perfect elegance born of obsession."

Lastly, there's the fact that he was being powered up by the focused effects of a talented Master of Battle Meditation, to such an extent that Farfalla, someone who was receiving the exact same benefits, was in absolute awe of how much quicker and stronger it made him, and Johun, someone who was, again, receiving the same benefits, noted the effects of no longer being powered up by the meditation as "a wave of exhaustion and fatigue overwhelm[ing] him," and "his strength and energy plummet[ing]."

Really, the fact that he was able to contend with Zannah in the first place alone speaks highly for his ability, at least under the BMd conditions, given the fact that her strength in the Force was believed to have been a good notch above Darth Bane's, her instinctive link to the dark side was stated to rival his, and she had been training and learning Sith Magic for ten years. Really, she'd logically be at a level of ability - both with a lightsaber and the Force - somewhere in between Bane's PoD and Ro2 incarnations. It doesn't matter that she hasn't yet displayed as much, her potential and instinctive grasp of the Force as well as the fact that she's been learning Sith Magic directly from Nadd's holocron, and training for a longer period of time (than his PoD incarnation) would dictate as much.

This is, after all, the same Zannah, who when untrained, was capable of some of the most impressive instinctive displays of the Force ever, such as protecting herself, and the area and Bouncers around her from the BoD's Force Storm, and snapping the necks of two Jedi. After ten years of learning Sith Magic directly from the holocron of Freedon Nadd, she's clearly going to be a force to be reckoned.

I got to ask you Nebaris, how long do you think Sarro could last vs Zannah without the aid of BM and no Johun to get in the way and the same situation for Sarro vs Bane. This is one character that I hope is featured in more New Sith Wars EU.

How are you, Nebaris?

We know you think anyone who fought Bane or is relevant to your argument is automatically superior to the opposition. But the fact of the matter is- the trio are highly formidable Jedi and duelists in their own right.

Agen Kolar was hailed as one of the greatest bladesbeings in the history of the Jedi Order- yes, a Jedi order that contained the likes of Raskta- and was capable of completely outclassing Quinlan Vos, a uniquely talented Jedi, in blade-to-blade combat. He was also trusted, and co-worked with Mace Windu, the same guy who was called one of the deadliest Jedi in history, invented an 'unconventionally lethal' form and had mastered most- if not all- forms.

Kit was also held in exceptionally high esteem by many, knowledgable Jedi Masters and was described as being superior to AotC Obi-Wan in lightsaber combat. In fact, the quote- I believe- says that Obi-Wan 'quickly realized' that Kit was superior. This implies that Fisto was completely outclassing him- and remind yourself that this is the same Obi-Wan who, just over 10 years previously, managed to knock Darth Maul- someone who was a high level master of multiple forms and was one of the deadliest apprentices in history- on his ass and cut his weapon in half.

Seasee was reputed to be one of the best bladesbeings in the Jedi Order's history (supported by Shaak Ti and Obi-Wan Kenobi, knowledgable and formidable Jedi Masters on their own right), and was good enough a pilot to impress Anakin Skywalker- arguably the best pilot in the history of the galaxy. In order to truly be an excellent Jedi pilot, it suggests that Tiin possessed a unique attunement to the force, and had great mastery over it.

I don't think it's a question so much of how long he'd last, considering Zannah's Soresu mindset, but more so just whether or not he'd actually pose any semblance of a threat whatsoever, in which case I don't think so without the benefits of BM. At least not to the point where he'd be able to prevent her from breaking out of close combat and directing her sorcery at him. As for Bane, I personally don't think any of the Jedi would have lasted long at all against him without the beneficial effects of BM. Even BM powered, in a two-on-one situation, Farfalla didn't believe that he or Raskta stood a chance against him, believing Bane to be too powerful for both of them, and feeling that they needed reinforcements, and it's made extremely clear that Farfalla would have been defeated in moments without the beneficial effects of BM, and the same is likely the case with Raskta, considering she was only able to evade his opening attack at the last possible instant, and likely wouldn't have while not BM powered.

But yeah, I have to agree, as far as Jedi go he truly was as beastly as it gets, and is arguably the most complete lightsaber practitioner there is. Incredible speed, strength, technique, elegance, and grace. One hell of a package.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
How are you, Nebaris?

The keyboard function you're looking for there would be .

We know you think anyone who fought Bane or is relevant to your argument is automatically superior to the opposition. But the fact of the matter is- the trio are highly formidable Jedi and duelists in their own right.

Did I deny as much? The fact of the matter is that all that they have going for them is their technical ability (also, I don't know where you're gauging "dueling" - specifically - from, considering their time period was far less focused on lightsaber-on-lightsaber action given the period didn't demand it so much, and nothing regarding them speaks specifically on the matter). Sarro was clearly not lacking in that area one bit, and yet on top of that, as I explained, was as complete a fighter as any other Jedi, was being powered to extraordinary heights by Worror's BM, and his training and experience was far more focused on dueling against opponents such as the three mentioned Jedi. He was one of the top duelists of a far greater Jedi Order, and he was being powered heavily by BM. Puts him a good notch above a bunch of one trick ponies, that absolutely suck strategically as Jedi.

Agen Kolar was hailed as one of the greatest bladesbeings in the history of the Jedi Order- yes, a Jedi order that contained the likes of Raskta-

One of the greatest in a galaxy wide 20,000 year old institution. Substantiate what that truly amounts to, and then substantiate what real significance technical ability truly has (which is all the statement measures), and then, if you manage to do that, substantiate how it puts him above a top tier Jedi of the greatest Order of Jedi there had likely ever been and ever will be, who was being powered tremendously by BM, and was far more specialised at fighting against lightsaber wielding Force users and far more complete a fighter than Agen could even hope to dream of.

and was capable of completely outclassing Quinlan Vos, a uniquely talented Jedi, in blade-to-blade combat.

QV was unique purely because of his psychometric power, something entirely irrelevant on a dueling situation, and something that was both powered by his Force ability and his natural ability as a guardian (and thus, not completely testament to his ability with the Force).

He was also trusted, and co-worked with Mace Windu, the same guy who was called one of the deadliest Jedi in history, invented an 'unconventionally lethal' form and had mastered most- if not all- forms.

Irrelevant misdirection. That Mace has such faith in his ability and highly trusted him speaks of Agen's ability in comparison to any other Jedi who might fill such a spot, not to Mace Windu himself, so posting evidence of Mace's notability amounts to nothing. Oh, and for the record, Dooku was the only Jedi of his time to master Makashi, so sadly, Mace Windu most certainly did not master all the forms. Unlucky. And the only thing that was labelled "deadliest" was Vaapad. Stop repeating this falsehood.

Kit was also held in exceptionally high esteem by many, knowledgeable Jedi Masters and was described as being superior to AotC Obi-Wan in lightsaber combat. In fact, the quote- I believe- says that Obi-Wan 'quickly realized' that Kit was superior. This implies that Fisto was completely outclassing him-

LOL. So he was able to outclass a guy with no real proven skills and no notability whatsoever. Nice argument. Now, substantiate Obi-Wan's level of ability as of AotC, and then get back to me, or drop the point.

and remind yourself that this is the same Obi-Wan who, just over 10 years previously, managed to knock Darth Maul- someone who was a high level master of multiple forms and was one of the deadliest apprentices in history- on his ass and cut his weapon in half.

In a force empowered rage that granted him tremendous temporary advantages. Not testament to his regular level of ability. Try again. Also, you make an effort of pointing out the ten years that had passed, when in all truth, while his Force ability would have most definitely improved during the period, his lightsaber ability most likely went down a good notch or two, given he had completely abandoned the form of combat that he had been practising for about twenty years, and started from scratch with Soresu and only practised it for about half the time he had Ataru. If his overall level of ability was even greater after those ten years, it was marginal, at best.

Seasee was reputed to be one of the best bladesbeings in the Jedi Order's history (supported by Shaak Ti and Obi-Wan Kenobi, knowledgeable and formidable Jedi Masters on their own right),

There's only one passage of text that declares them both knowledgeable in such a respect, and I'm replying to it. Now, substantiate their knowledge on Jedi Lore, and then come back to me, because evidence isn't pointing to it being anything near worthy.

and was good enough a pilot to impress Anakin Skywalker- arguably the best pilot in the history of the galaxy. In order to truly be an excellent Jedi pilot, it suggests that Tiin possessed a unique attunement to the force, and had great mastery over it.

Or, he possessed average Force attunement, and simply possessed exceptional technical piloting ability that made up for it. Don't really care either way, you're making the claim, it's not my burden of proof. Now prove your case, or drop the point.

Oh, be banned already.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Nope, it was stated that Zannah could have killed Johun anytime. She deliberately left him alive because she realised that he was a bigger hindrance to his ally than he was to her.

Sure those guys are better Jedi, but are they better fighters? Heck, it is stated in the book that Raskta and Sarro focused almost entirely on combat ability, this left them vulnerable to Bane and Zannah's Force attacks/Sith sorcery. Would those guys really have focused that much on fighting ability alone?

Originally posted by Taven

The keyboard function you're looking for there would be .

Nebaris, the impossible has happened: your humor is actually degenerating.

Originally posted by Taven
Did I deny as much? The fact of the matter is that all that they have going for them is their technical ability (also, I don't know where you're gauging "dueling" - specifically - from, considering their time period was far less focused on lightsaber-on-lightsaber action given the period didn't demand it so much, and nothing regarding them speaks specifically on the matter). Sarro was clearly not lacking in that area one bit, and yet on top of that, as I explained, was as complete a fighter as any other Jedi, was being powered to extraordinary heights by Worror's BM, and his training and experience was far more focused on dueling against opponents such as the three mentioned Jedi. He was one of the top duelists of a far greater Jedi Order, and he was being powered heavily by BM. Puts him a good notch above a bunch of one trick ponies, that absolutely suck strategically as Jedi.

LOL. Okay, you know what? Sarro was more technically skilled than Bane, was graceful because of his technical skill, and all he had is brute strength! Nice try. 'Greatest swordsman'. We've been over this- part of being a swordsman in the Star Wars galaxy is force attunement and ability- they weren't the most 'skilled swordsman'- which refers purely to technical skill- but overall, 'greatest' and 'best'.

While that specific era focused less on dueling, it still holds that when they engaged in lightsaber combat with other lightsaber-wielding or at least people wielding melee weapons, they did just fine- when Kolar practically defeated Vos, and when Fisto took apart multiple magnaguards (droids who were said to have programming in all the forms, and were 'more than a match for most Jedi'😉, enough to awe General Grievous (causing him to refer to Kit as a 'true Jedi'😉, who had slaughtered hundreds of Jedi.

Oh, and a vastly inferior Jedi Order? Right. Then how come it was called 'the prime of the Jedi' by George friggin' Lucas, contained the 'most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known' (puts him a notch or two above Raskta, Farfalla, and co., eh?), 'one of the deadliest Jedi in history' who had mastered a form incomplete for a milennia and formed the most lethal form in existence, the ultimate master of Soresu ("the most cunning Jedi"😉, and the Chosen One, whose raw power is well beyond any who preceded him and was the 'strongest and fastest Jedi', perhaps of any generation. Yeah, right. 'Vastly inferior Jedi Order'.

In addition, did you ever heard of the phrase "quality before quantity?" The fact that there were far less Jedi in the PT-era implies that much greater dedication and care was put into every single Jedi.

Originally posted by Taven
One of the greatest in a galaxy wide 20,000 year old institution. Substantiate what that truly amounts to, and then substantiate what real significance technical ability truly has (which is all the statement measures), and then, if you manage to do that, substantiate how it puts him above a top tier Jedi of the greatest Order of Jedi there had likely ever been and ever will be, who was being powered tremendously by BM, and was far more specialised at fighting against lightsaber wielding Force users and far more complete a fighter than Agen could even hope to dream of.

Just because Agen wasn't extensively described in combat at any given time doesn't mean he's below Sarro; it's not 'technical skill', which you would see if you stopped being so persistently blind and biased towards PT characters. Also, that so-called 'uber Jedi order!!!11!!' was put as inferior to the PT Jedi Order by George Lucas himself. In addition, the only thing we know of that Jedi Order is the fact that they were more trained to battle other lightsaber users- basing the fact that they were the greatest Jedi Order ever is pointless, stupid, and unsupported. Especially when other than Bane and Kas'im, every single Sith in the Brotherhood of Darkness was pathetic, worthless bantha fodder.

Originally posted by Taven
QV was unique purely because of his psychometric power, something entirely irrelevant on a dueling situation, and something that was both powered by his Force ability and his natural ability as a guardian (and thus, not completely testament to his ability with the Force).

Fair enough.

Originally posted by Taven
Irrelevant misdirection. That Mace has such faith in his ability and highly trusted him speaks of Agen's ability in comparison to any other Jedi who might fill such a spot, not to Mace Windu himself, so posting evidence of Mace's notability amounts to nothing. Oh, and for the record, Dooku was the only Jedi of his time to master Makashi, so sadly, Mace Windu most certainly did not master all the forms. Unlucky. And the only thing that was labelled "deadliest" was Vaapad. Stop repeating this falsehood.

Shatterpoint calls Windu one of the deadliest Jedi in history- and being the only, and greatest known master of the 'deadliest' form only speaks for his ability. The fact of the matter is, the omniscent narrator of the RotS novel referred to Mace and Kolar as the best counters to Darth Sidious, who, as Dooku's master, was probably speculated by the council to be even stronger than Dooku.

In addition, Vaapad requires mastery- or at least knowledge- of all forms. I was aware of Dooku being the greatest Makashi practitioner in the Jedi Order. But the only one? Can you prove it?

Originally posted by Taven
LOL. So he was able to outclass a guy with no real proven skills and no notability whatsoever. Nice argument. Now, substantiate Obi-Wan's level of ability as of AotC, and then get back to me, or drop the point.

In a force empowered rage that granted him tremendous temporary advantages. Not testament to his regular level of ability. Try again. Also, you make an effort of pointing out the ten years that had passed, when in all truth, while his Force ability would have most definitely improved during the period, his lightsaber ability most likely went down a good notch or two, given he had completely abandoned the form of combat that he had been practising for about twenty years, and started from scratch with Soresu and only practised it for about half the time he had Ataru. If his overall level of ability was even greater after those ten years, it was marginal, at best.

Apparently, he didn't 'completely abandon it', as he utilized it in multiple battles in RotS. In addition- if anything, having near-mastery of a certain form (there's no indication that he 'completely' abandoned it, only that it was no longer his emphasis), in addition to being a highly talented practioner of Soresu (training in a form for 10 years, when you're a talented Jedi Master, tends to make you an exceptional practioner of said form). In addition, prove that it was force-enhanced and not just a rage. While it gives you a noteworthy boost of power for a short while, it's not enough to compensate for 10 years of seasoning, experience, and extensive training.

Originally posted by Taven
There's only one passage of text that declares them both knowledgeable in such a respect, and I'm replying to it. Now, substantiate their knowledge on Jedi Lore, and then come back to me, because evidence isn't pointing to it being anything near worthy.

As Jedi Masters of renown, they no doubt spent plenty of time studying the Jedi Archives (that had an immense amount of information), to learn of past Jedi of old- it's also possible that Yoda or Mace told them that information.

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Originally posted by Taven
Or, he possessed average Force attunement, and simply possessed exceptional technical piloting ability that made up for it. Don't really care either way, you're making the claim, it's not my burden of proof. Now prove your case, or drop the point.

Or he didn't. The reason why Jedi Pilots are so much greater than regular pilots is because of force attunement- why do you think Anakin was such an amazing pilot? Technical ability? Heh. Being good enough to impress Anakin Skywalker implies an extraordinary amount of force attunement (as does being one of the best swordsman in the order's history). Try again.

Anakin with or without the force WAS a legit amazing pilot, one of if not the best ever in the SW galaxy, don't knock his skills.

I didn't 'mock his skills'. He's an amazingly skilled pilot- but he's the best because of his force attunement.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
I didn't 'mock his skills'. He's an amazingly skilled pilot- but he's the best because of his force attunement.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
I didn't 'mock his skills'. He's an amazingly skilled pilot- but he's the best because of his force attunement.

I said knock not mock...while I agree, the force certainly helps (reflexes, foresight and such) there is apparently something else that sets aside Anakin from the rest of the force users piloting ships, his sheer skill for piloting. I mean a little into the Clone Wars and he's flat out stated by the Council to be the best pilot they have. Had it simply been his force connection doing all the work then why aren't people whom at the time were stronger in the force then Anakin better pilots?

I just dislike this new thing in the EU where no one has any legitimate skills and its all "LOLZ da force did it!" Why can't they just be really damn good?

And where the hell is it stated Grievous has killed "hundreds of jedi"? Maybe over a dozen at best...

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
What about during TPM when he had NO force training?

Key word, attunement. Not 'mastery'. Anakin Skywalker's force attunement is unmatched, and was the only reason why he possessed the sufficient insight and reflexes to master pod-racing, an act no other human had ever achieved. Of course, he has natural talent and is a technically skilled pilot- but it's his force attunement, reflexes, precognition, and his creativity that enable him to truly be an incredible pilot.

Originally posted by Chick MagnetI said knock not mock...while I agree, the force certainly helps (reflexes, foresight and such) there is apparently something else that sets aside Anakin from the rest of the force users piloting ships, his sheer skill for piloting. I mean a little into the Clone Wars and he's flat out stated by the Council to be the best pilot they have. Had it simply been his force connection doing all the work then why aren't people whom at the time were stronger in the force then Anakin better pilots?

I just dislike this new thing in the EU where no one has any legitimate skills and its all "LOLZ da force did it!" Why can't they just be really damn good?

And where the hell is it stated Grievous has killed "hundreds of jedi"? Maybe over a dozen at best...

Because, maybe, Anakin's strength in the force is greater than anyone in the Star Wars mythos, bar none? Yeah. I think it just might be that.

As much as I dislike that whole "people are just vessels to the powa of the force!!!" thing, it's canon.

Even if Grievous only killed, say, 50 Jedi, it's still amazing that he is highly impressed by Kit Fisto's abilities, as some of the Jedi he fought were top-tier, like Shaak Ti, Ki-Adi-Mundi, and Adi Gallia, formidable Council Members and rather skilled duelists.

And this is the same Grievous who made Mace f*cking Windu not want to prolong the engagement them. The same usually highly arrogant Grievous, who Dooku was 'hard pressed' to defeat in sparring sessions.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Key word, attunement. Not 'mastery'. Anakin Skywalker's force attunement is unmatched, and was the only reason why he possessed the sufficient insight and reflexes to master pod-racing, an act no other human had ever achieved. Of course, he has natural talent and is a technically skilled pilot- but it's his force attunement, reflexes, precognition, and his creativity that enable him to truly be an incredible pilot.

I still do remember obiwan in ROTJ labelling him the greatest pilot in the galaxy.