Darth Bane + Darth Zannah Vs. Team Sent To Arrest Palpatine

Started by Chick Magnet13 pages
Because, maybe, Anakin's strength in the force is greater than anyone in the Star Wars mythos, bar none? Yeah. I think it just might be that.

Oh now you admit that...and no, Anakin's POTENTIAL is greater then anyones, his ACTUAL manifested power...not so much (Luke, Jacen, Yoda, Sidious off the top of my head surpass him) especially during the time were the quote that I put is stated.

Jacen stands out as one who has alot of force power, surpassing that of Anakin, but during his tenure in the Rough Squad, he still wasn't a better pilot then Anakin. Neither is Luke.

As much as I dislike that whole "people are just vessels to the powa of the force!!!" thing, it's canon.

Debatable. The Sith namely would disagree with that notion.

Even if Grievous only killed, say, 50 Jedi, it's still amazing that he is highly impressed by Kit Fisto's abilities, as some of the Jedi he fought were top-tier, like Shaak Ti, Ki-Adi-Mundi, and Adi Gallia, formidable Council Members and rather skilled duelists.

I don't care. I want some STATED figures on how many Jedi he's killed before you go slinging hyperbole BS like "he's killed hundreds" around.

And this is the same Grievous who made Mace f*cking Windu not want to prolong the engagement them. The same usually highly arrogant Grievous, who Dooku was 'hard pressed' to defeat in sparring sessions.

Once again: I don't care. I'm not arguing with you, I just want your sources.

Originally posted by Chick Magnet
Oh now you admit that...

Huh? Did I ever deny that little piece of information? If I did, I would be stupid.

Originally posted by Chick Magnet
and no, Anakin's POTENTIAL is greater then anyones, his ACTUAL manifested power...not so much (Luke, Jacen, Yoda, Sidious off the top of my head surpass him) especially during the time were the quote that I put is stated.

I think you have a slight misunderstand of 'force strength'. Anakin had the most midichlorians in galactic history- midichlorians amount fo one's strength in the force. Similarly, one's strength in the force is equivalent to 'force attunement'. The person with the most power in the force has the potential to be capable of using the force to the greatest extent- which is why Yoda, despite having lesser strength in the force than Anakin, will be able to curbstomp him in a force fight- he has far greater control over it, so he is capable of using it in the most devastating manner.

In addition, Anakin- despite having 'less manifested force power' than Dooku, by your logic, as Dooku's force feats curbstomp Anakin's own, overpowered the more technically skilled Count via his innate power with the force.

For example- if someone is, physically, the physically strongest being in the universe, he might have the potential to be the best fistfighter in the world- but other individuals of lesser strength can use their power in a more efficient, controlled manner to curbstomp said person in personal combat.

Originally posted by Chick Magnet
Jacen stands out as one who has alot of force power, surpassing that of Anakin, but during his tenure in the Rough Squad, he still wasn't a better pilot then Anakin. Neither is Luke.

First of all, Jacen is undoubtedly weaker in terms of raw power in the force when in comparison to Anakin- Luke, however, has just as much strength in the force, or slightly lesser- but Anakin is more technically skilled, or so I believe. This is incredibly similar to lightsaber combat- there's technical skill, and there's how much the force impacts one's own skill- if two people have equal ability with the force, their technical ability will make all the difference. The same applies if they have equal technical skill- and if one has greater technical skill and the other greater force power, it usually happens that the one with superior force power triumphs.

The level of strength and attunement one has to the force effects their piloting- Anakin's innate power enabled him to gain levels of reflexes and precognition well beyond most pilots in history.

Originally posted by Chick Magnet
Debatable. The Sith namely would disagree with that notion.

Maybe it's because the Sith use the force in an entirely different manner than the Jedi?

Originally posted by Chick Magnet
I don't care. I want some STATED figures on how many Jedi he's killed before you go slinging hyperbole BS like "he's killed hundreds" around.

Try exaggeration.

Originally posted by Chick Magnet
Once again: I don't care. I'm not arguing with you, I just want your sources.

Once again, I was exaggerating the amount of Jedi General Grievous killed- however, it still stands that he killed an immense amount of Jedi, some of them being exceptionally talented.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Good point but now can you actually quote a reliable source which proves that the force was actually aiding him for his reflexes in TPM?

I still do remember obiwan in ROTJ labelling him the greatest pilot in the galaxy.[/B]

First of all, I'm not at my own house now so I don't have access to most of the sources- but I'm certain that if you check the TPM novel, both the pod scene and the battle in space offer plenty of descriptions of how Anakin 'surrendered to his instincts' or some kind of cliched EU shit like that.

Anakin is certainly the greatest pilot in the galaxy- but it comes virtue both of his technical ability and his attunement to the force. For example, the RotS novel says that Anakin's flying "transcends mere flying in the same way that Jedi combat transcends a schoolyard scuffle".

Try exaggeration.

Thats the definition of hyperbole....

Anakin is certainly the greatest pilot in the galaxy- but it comes virtue both of his technical ability and his attunement to the force. For example, the RotS novel says that Anakin's flying "transcends mere flying in the same way that Jedi combat transcends a schoolyard scuffle".

See, had you said that in the first place there wouldn't have been a problem, as I've said; yes the force certainly does help Anakin, but he is also very innately skilled at piloting that goes beyond simply: the force did it. That was my only beef.

Originally posted by Chick Magnet
See, had you said that in the first place there wouldn't have been a problem, as I've said; yes the force certainly does help Anakin, but he is also very innately skilled at piloting that goes beyond simply: the force did it. That was my only beef.

He is innately skilled in piloting; but without the force, he wouldn't have been the best pilot in the galaxy. In order to truly be an amazing pilot, one needs the force- being a great pilot implies that Tiin's connection and mastery over the force were high.

After such a long hiatus, Nebaris has coped with his fear and returned... even lesser than before. Master Crimzon crushed that argument pretty handily. Good for you.

Thank you.

Define amazing...cause I think Han Solo, Wedge Antilles, Jango and Boba Fett, Tycho Celchu, and Jagged Fel are all amazing pilots. And yes the force does give advantages that these people simply can't have, however I think that in itself is a strength because they have to be a hell of a lot more creative then those who simply have an energy field telling them what to do. I despise the idea that force sensitives are automatically better at everything then EVERYONE else period cause they can touch the force. This idea has been shown to false also in Star Wars when someone like Thrawn exists who'd most likely shit on any force sensitive in a naval engagement. Non force sensitives are underated beyond belief, we have Jango Fett killing multiple Jedi with his bare hands, Durge laying the smackdown on Anakin Skywalker. You CAN be an amazing pilot/fighter/tactician WITHOUT the force.

Rant ova...

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

First of all, I'm not at my own house now so I don't have access to most of the sources- but I'm certain that if you check the TPM novel, both the pod scene and the battle in space offer plenty of descriptions of how Anakin 'surrendered to his instincts' or some kind of cliched EU shit like that.

Your "certain" its stated in the TPM novel and aren't even sure of it?

But then again what about his technical flying skills alone(Meaning no attunement)? Of course yes the force attunement would further aid his skills but to what extent exactly?

The force alone can't simply make you an "ub3R" pilot, it is simply is there to further enhance your already solid reflexes and skills.

The same way bodybuilding supplements work, they are only there to assist you further with an already solid eating and work out regime, the supplements alone won't help you gain the muscle mass you need... same way the force attunement alone won't make you a great pilot...

Anyways i'm not looking for another debate as i was merely addressing a point.

But you are partially right, that he is the greatest pilot partly due to his attunement, but then again read my above posts and you should understand what i am implying(which is that without the attunement he should already be a remarkable pilot).

EDIT

And please try to at least understand what i am trying to say before you come up with a rebutal.

Originally posted by Chick Magnet
Define amazing...cause I think Han Solo, Wedge Antilles, Jango and Boba Fett, Tycho Celchu, and Jagged Fel are all amazing pilots. And yes the force does give advantages that these people simply can't have, however I think that in itself is a strength because they have to be a hell of a lot more creative then those who simply have an energy field telling them what to do. I despise the idea that force sensitives are automatically better at everything then EVERYONE else period cause they can touch the force. This idea has been shown to false also in Star Wars when someone like Thrawn exists who'd most likely shit on any force sensitive in a naval engagement. Non force sensitives are underated beyond belief, we have Jango Fett killing multiple Jedi with his bare hands, Durge laying the smackdown on Anakin Skywalker. You CAN be an amazing pilot/fighter/tactician WITHOUT the force.

Rant ova...

First of all, tactics have nothing to do with the force- while being force-sensitive, thanks to precognition, may give a slight advantage, but it's hardly major. Two of the best tacticians in Star Wars history, General Grievous and Thrawn, weren't force-sensitive and they still fared fine (Grievous in particular, against armies that contained force-sensitive people).

Yes, these people you listed are exceptional pilots, but that's exclusively due to their technical skill- in addition, Anakin was the best pilot in the galaxy when Clones, trained pilots who possessed Jango Fett's genes, roamed around, and Anakin was head and shoulders above them. Why? The Force. As much as I like non force-sensitive people, they are inferior to force sensitive people in almost all manners.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Your "certain" its stated in the TPM novel and aren't even sure of it?

But then again what about his technical flying skills alone(Meaning no attunement)? Of course yes the force attunement would further aid his skills but to what extent exactly?

The force alone can't simply make you an "ub3R" pilot, it is simply is there to further enhance your already solid reflexes and skills.

The same way bodybuilding supplements work, they are only there to assist you further with an already solid eating and work out regime, the supplements alone won't help you gain the muscle mass you need... same way the force attunement alone won't make you a great pilot...

Anyways i'm not looking for another debate as i was merely addressing a point.

But you are partially right, that he is the greatest pilot partly due to his attunement, but then again read my above posts and you should understand what i am implying(which is that without the attunement he should already be a remarkable pilot).

EDIT

And [b]please try to at least understand what i am trying to say before you come up with a rebutal. [/B]

First of, I apologize for the double-post. Second of all, I read the TPM novel and remember these sorts of things, if not the exact quotes- give me a few days and I can provide you with quotes. Third of all, I did not once deny Anakin's incredible technical skill, but what truly made him the best pilot in the galaxy was his force attunement, which supplemented his already formidable technical skill. Why do you think he was better than an entire galaxy's worth of people like Jango Fett? Because of his force attunement.

Of course, having the force doesn't make you 'uber', but it greatly helps. Anakin was amazing because of technical skills and the force- without either of them, he wouldn't have been the best.

Good Lord, what is it with morons and being overly and annoyingly persistent?

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
[B]Nebaris, the impossible has happened: your humor is actually degenerating.

That was supposed to come out , apparently my keyboard's playing nasty tricks on me.

LOL. Okay, you know what? Sarro was more technically skilled than Bane,

Which Zannah notes with obvious high regard, as follows:

"Even though her technique was more refined than her Master's, she'd been able to withstand his assault ... so far."

Which speaks a hell of a lot for his saber technique, considering Bane's the guy who was able to perfectly memories and counter the millions of moves and sequences that make up all seven forms of the saber staff in under two years; in over five times the amount of time, it's pretty clear that he would have made a tremendous improvement and reached an extremely high level of ability, as it's noted that he spent time refining his technique during the period.

And unlike these Masters, his training focused on combating the Sith, he would have most definitely fought them in the War (in response to Lightsnake bringing up the fact that he was a padawan during the war, Force sensitive children were called on to fight in the war, it's pretty clear Padawans would have received their fair share of battle experience), and as such would be much more specialised at combating lightsaber wielding Force Users than your three one trick ponies.

was graceful because of his technical skill,

Grace =/= lightsaber refinery.

and all he had is brute strength!

As well as astonishing speed, elegance, and as an overall swordsman, was believed to possess few peers in the entire Galaxy, and when BM powered, was capable of outclassing Darth fricking Zannah.

Nice try. 'Greatest swordsman'. We've been over this- part of being a swordsman in the Star Wars galaxy is force attunement and ability- they weren't the most 'skilled swordsman'- which refers purely to technical skill- but overall, 'greatest' and 'best'.

We have been over this, and you stopped replying the last time, most likely because you knew that your argument had no leg to stand on.

How 'great' or 'fine' a swordsman is measures purely how good they are with the weapon itself, and that's it. Their speed, strength etc. doesn't tell you how good they are with the weapon, but rather how effective they would be able to use it in a miscellaneous situation, ergo, it has no effect on how great they are as swordsmen specifically.

If you believe otherwise, prove up on your stance.

While that specific era focused less on dueling, it still holds that when they engaged in lightsaber combat with other lightsaber-wielding or at least people wielding melee weapons, they did just fine-

And? I'm not saying that they suck as duelists because of it, but that they're naturally at a disadvantage when stacked up to beings who's training was focused around dueling and combating other Force Users and Lightsaber Practitioners, and who received a high level of battle experience, again, against lightsaber wielding Sith, on top of that

when Kolar practically defeated Vos,

Substantiate [the barely trained] Vos's level of ability, and then get back to me, as you failed miserably the last time.

and when Fisto took apart multiple magnaguards (droids who were said to have programming in all the forms, and were 'more than a match for most Jedi'😉,

Well he was only able to take two of them on at once, and it took him as long to defeat them as it did Mace to defeat Grievous. And while they're extremely technically skilled, at the end of the day, they're still just droids, they're not sensitive to the force, and as such, don't receive the many advantages that the Force provides them: such as the inhuman speed, strength, reflexes, or precognition. Shaak Ti was after all capable of holding her own against about twelve of them; they may have been 'more than a match for most Jedi,' but it's made quite clear that would stand literally no chance against an upper tier Jedi, which Sarro most certainly is, by virtue of deeds, reputation and proven ability.

enough to awe General Grievous (causing him to refer to Kit as a 'true Jedi'😉, who had slaughtered hundreds of Jedi.

Grievous was hardly in 'awe' of him, he simply stated that his assault on the many Jedi protecting the Chancellor might not have been so successful had he surrounded himself with Jedi such as the likes of Kit Fisto. Meaning even then, he only questioned whether he would be able to take on the likes of a group of Kit Fisto level Jedi, it's quite clear that he certainly didn't think of Kit as individually posing a threat against him.

And as AC Styles pointed out, that number amounts to nothing more than hopeful hyperbole.

Oh, and a vastly inferior Jedi Order?

Yes. In numbers, training, battle experience, mentality, and emphasis on dueling and fighting against the Sith. Vastly inferior.

Right. Then how come it was called 'the prime of the Jedi' by George friggin' Lucas,

Define 'the prime of the Jedi' and prove that the meaning is anything remotely related to combat and personal power. It could just as easily be in reference to the time of peace (it was made with reference to the time of The Phantom Menace) that the Jedi policed over as it could their level of power.

contained the 'most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known' (puts him a notch or two above Raskta, Farfalla, and co., eh?),

1. I've already explained why the canonicity of that quote should be brought into question; it immediately goes on to say that the 'most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known' just didn't have what it takes to defeat Sidious, in response to a battle between the two that depicted Sidious kicking Yoda's ass all over the place, which clearly contradicts the movie. Now before you go on about narration and character thoughts not being subject to retcon, they are when they're dependant on invalid events, which is exactly what's the case.

2. Even assuming that it's a canonical piece of narration, define it, and then get back to me, because power can be defined as the capacity to be effective, Yoda's labelled a direct foe of the 'darkness,' a force of nature that had lived throughout the ages and presumably can never be completely destroyed, and as such, it's highly likely that the quote is in allusion to Yoda's role in the grand scheme of things, and how much of a threat he had been to the darkness throughout the many centuries he had been alive. Now, prove up on your interpretation, or drop the point.

3. Even assuming that Yoda was the most combat capable Jedi ever, he's an ancient Jedi Grandmaster who had lived for centuries and who's midi-chlorian level was presumably the highest of the PT era before Anakin came along. He's not an accurate representative of the Jedi Order as a whole, ergo, you have no point.

'one of the deadliest Jedi in history' who had mastered a form incomplete for a milennia and formed the most lethal form in existence,

Again, another Jedi who was essentially an anomaly within his Order. Not an accurate representative of the Order as a whole. Also, please source that quote, as I'm pretty sure it doesn't exist.

the ultimate master of Soresu ("the most cunning Jedi"😉,

Now you're just being ridiculous. Obi-Wan Kenobi's praise fully stems from his position within his Order. The structure or hierarchy within an Order doesn't speak for how the Order itself compares to those before or after it, ergo, you have no point.

and the Chosen One, whose raw power is well beyond any who preceded him

1. The 'well beyond' demands proof.

2. Again, he's the Chosen One, another anomaly. He's not an accurate representative of his Order, ergo, you still have no point.

and was the 'strongest and fastest Jedi',

Again, how good someone was in relation to the Order doesn't speak for the Order as a whole.

perhaps of any generation.

The term 'Perhaps' would immediately bring the statement into question, can be considered hyperbolic, but that doesn't matter anyway, as the fricking Chosen One is not the quintessential PT Jedi. Far from it.

Yeah, right. 'Vastly inferior Jedi Order'.

Good Lord you're dense. All you've managed to do is list a bunch of in-order hierarchies, as well as name a few anomalies within the Order and list their accomplishments. For the former, the structure or hierarchy within an Order doesn't speak for the Order as a whole, and for the latter, an anomaly isn't an accurate representative of a sample. You haven't proven a thing for the Order as a whole. Try again.

In addition, did you ever heard of the phrase "quality before quantity?"

The old Order has both. Far higher numbers, and far greater emphasis on fighting the Sith and dueling, better training, and better battle experience.

The fact that there were far less Jedi in the PT-era implies that much greater dedication and care was put into every single Jedi.

Which is simply retarded. The higher numbers in the AoL times would apply to both the Masters and the students. Nothing indicates that the Master-student ratio would have been any different, meaning you have no point. For less care to be given in respect to training and such would require that the ratio between student and master be more in favour to the students for the AoL times in comparison to the PT times. Nothing even hints that as much is the case.

Also, in case you missed the point, I was simply pointing out that Sarro was a larger fish in a far larger pond. That he was in such a position among such a higher number of Jedi speaks far more highly for his level of ability, as he would face more competition than others would.

There's also the cosmic effect that number of Jedi would have had on the Light side of the Force. As PoD notes, the darkside works best when focused in a small number, and the fact that Kaan's Order numbered in the thousands had been weakening and filtering the darkside. The opposite's the case with the Jedi; the higher the numbers, the stronger the light side of the Force.

Just because Agen wasn't extensively described in combat at any given time doesn't mean he's below Sarro;

We argue by virtue of what we know, and all that Agen has going for him is amazing technical ability. Sarro has the same, albeit to a lesser degree, but amazing strength, speed, grace, and elegance on top of that, and his reputation would indicate that he was higher up than the three were in his already far more impressive Order. When powered by Battle Meditation, he was capable of outclassing someone as powerful as Zannah (who as I said, would realistically be at a level of ability somewhere between Bane's PoD and Ro2 incarnations).

it's not 'technical skill', which you would see if you stopped being so persistently blind and biased towards PT characters.

If you feel so strongly about it, prove up. Analyse the exact meaning behind 'greatest' and 'swordsmen,' examine what effect each word has on each other, use real world and literary examples, and prove, undeniably, that the statement measures more than just their technical ability. Do that, and then you can claim that Agen and Seasee and Kit have more going for them than just their technical ability.

Also, that so-called 'uber Jedi order!!!11!!' was put as inferior to the PT Jedi Order by George Lucas himself.

Not from a combat standpoint.

In addition, the only thing we know of that Jedi Order is the fact that they were more trained to battle other lightsaber users- basing the fact that they were the greatest Jedi Order ever is pointless, stupid, and unsupported.

It's not my problem if you want to pretend that the evidence isn't there, but sadly for you, it is.

Their numbers were higher, their training was superior, they were more battle hardened, there was a greater emphasis on dueling and combating the Sith, they possessed more of a warrior's mentality, and given, again, the numbers, the Light Side of the Force (what they draw on to power themselves up) would have most definitely flourished during the period.

Especially when other than Bane and Kas'im, every single Sith in the Brotherhood of Darkness was pathetic, worthless bantha fodder.

ROFL. I'd love it if you could prove any of that. Just because the others may not have displayed that much doesn't mean that they have little going for them. Also, why the hell are you bringing up the BoD, we're talking about the AoL and the Jedi Order that followed, keep up.

Shatterpoint calls Windu one of the deadliest Jedi in history-

Quote and Page Number. Not that it matters, my argument's not based around Mace, but his Order, and being an anomaly within his Order, is not an accurate representation of it.

and being the only, and greatest known master of the 'deadliest' form only speaks for his ability. The fact of the matter is, the omniscent narrator of the RotS novel referred to Mace and Kolar as the best counters to Darth Sidious, who, as Dooku's master, was probably speculated by the council to be even stronger than Dooku.

Why are you bringing up what the omniscient narrator states, and then bringing up the council's potential speculations? I don't even know what point you think you're trying to make here.

In addition, Vaapad requires mastery- or at least knowledge- of all forms.

Replace 'all' with 'multiple,' and you'd be correct. No proof whatsoever that Mace was even proficient with Makashi.

I was aware of Dooku being the greatest Makashi practitioner in the Jedi Order. But the only one? Can you prove it?

I don't really care enough about the point to search through a bunch of material and find the quote for you; at the end of the day, you made the claim that Windu had mastered all forms, the burden of proof falls on you to prove up, and you clearly can't (primarily due to the fact that it's impossible in this case, as the evidence is nonexistent).

Apparently, he didn't 'completely abandon it', as he utilized it in multiple battles in RotS.

He completely abandoned the practise of it, yes. I never stated that he would never use it again in a stand alone incident, but that's all it was, one time, to dupe Dooku [in n-canon material, but whatever, you'll only argue it].

In addition- if anything, having near-mastery of a certain form (there's no indication that he 'completely' abandoned it, only that it was no longer his emphasis),

There is, actually: noting its defencive flaws and the weakness and vulnerability that surfaced with Qui-Gon's death, he decided never to use the form again and start completely afresh with Soresu. How proficient he may have been with it matters little, as he no longer utilised it in combat.

in addition to being a highly talented practioner of Soresu (training in a form for 10 years, when you're a talented Jedi Master, tends to make you an exceptional practioner of said form).

The point I was making was that he only practised the form for half the time he did with Ataru. As talented as Obi-wan may have been, he was always that talented, both when he was practising Ataru, and when he was mastering Soresu. With only half the time spent mastering Soresu that he spent with Ataru, and no longer utilising his original form, common sense dictates that his technique went down by a fair margin.

In addition, prove that it was force-enhanced and not just a rage.

They're not mutually exclusive. When you give into your rage, you tap into the dark side of the Force, which in turn provides a significant boost to your abilities. And that would be the only explanation, given how easily Maul was able to take down Obi-Wan's Master, Qui-Gon, and how Obi-Wan was stated to be 'not yet his equal.'

While it gives you a noteworthy boost of power for a short while, it's not enough to compensate for 10 years of seasoning, experience, and extensive training.

As has already been established, the ten years wouldn't have made that big an overall difference to his ability, and either way, prove up. Maul was vastly more technically skilled (being a high end master of multiple forms), was using an unorthodox weapon, and was physically far better conditioned. He clearly didn't have any trouble breaking through his Force defences and Force pushing him on his ass either. That Obi-Wan was able to compete with him at all would suggest that the rage provided tremendous temporary advantages.

As Jedi Masters of renown, they no doubt spent plenty of time studying the Jedi Archives (that had an immense amount of information), to learn of past Jedi of old-

That makes... absolutely no sense, whatsoever. So because they were Jedi of renown, Obi-Wan and Shaak Ti = history buffs? Right...

it's also possible that Yoda or Mace told them that information.

Possible, but unproven. Prove up, or drop the point. Substantiate their credibility at making such a claim.

Or he didn't. The reason why Jedi Pilots are so much greater than regular pilots is because of force attunement-

I never denied as much, but what separated Saesee from his fellow Jedi could have easily been his technical ability, and not his Force attunement, which could have just as well remained average.

why do you think Anakin was such an amazing pilot?

Amazing Force attunement and talent as a pilot. But that's Anakin. Anakin is not Saesee. What makes Anakin an amazing pilot doesn't have to be what makes Saesee an amazing pilot. Now, prove up on your claims, or drop the point.

Technical ability? Heh.

It's a possibility, which is all that I need to provide proof of, considering it's your burden of proof.

Being good enough to impress Anakin Skywalker implies an extraordinary amount of force attunement

No, it implies that as an overall pilot, he was exceptionally gifted. You can't prove that being that great a pilot demands even above average Force attunement, ergo, you have no point. Unlucky.

(as does being one of the best swordsman in the order's history). Try again.

As already established, no. Try harder.

LOL.

Anakin Skywalker, Yoda, Mace Windu, Count Dooku, Agen Kolar, Kit Fisto, Saesee Tinn, Sora Bulq (and, by some extention, Depa Billaba). That's ten Jedi whose skills have been lauded as elite or powerful even compared to the entire history of the Jedi Order, twenty-five thousand years. Meanwhile, the "prime of the Jedi" statement was issued during a time that the Order's numbers had dwindled to a "mere 10,000" and beginning the rise to power of the most powerful Sith Lord in history, where the dark side of the Force was beginning to take dominance. It clearly refers to combat capability. George Lucas and I > RoT and the EU > you.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
First of, I apologize for the double-post. Second of all, I read the TPM novel and remember these sorts of things, if not the exact quotes- give me a few days and I can provide you with quotes. Third of all, I did not once deny Anakin's incredible technical skill, but what truly made him the best pilot in the galaxy was his force attunement, which supplemented his already formidable technical skill. Why do you think he was better than an entire galaxy's worth of people like Jango Fett? Because of his force attunement.

Of course, having the force doesn't make you 'uber', but it greatly helps. Anakin was amazing because of technical skills and the force- without either of them, he wouldn't have been the best.

Wait a minute, you completely misunderstood my point.

I already made it clear that the force assists your already solid reflexs and piloting skills the same way that supplements assist your already solid eating and gym regime.(At least you seem to got this)

I have already asked you and you have yet to answer, to what extent does the force assist him in such situations? You are making it as if it helps him by an incredibly large margin which you have yet to prove.

So, what is your point exactly? That he is the greatest pilot due to both his "amazing" talents and "force attunement"? If so, why bring out and argue a point that most of us already know?

BTW don't bother arguing with nebaris, no matter how many times you own or smash him he keeps coming back like a broken record. Just ignore him.

LOL. Apparently after the 500 curbstomps you still] think you can win one against me.

LOL.

Anakin Skywalker, Yoda, Mace Windu, Count Dooku, Agen Kolar, Kit Fisto, Saesee Tinn, Sora Bulq (and, by some extention, Depa Billaba). That's ten Jedi whose skills have been lauded as elite or powerful even compared to the entire history of the Jedi Order, twenty-five thousand years.

Substantiate.

In a Galaxy Wide and over 20,000 year long organisation, define what it means to be "one of the best" or "one of the greatest."

In the greatest era for Jedi there's ever been, it's really not that much of a stretch to conclude that a few of these "greatest" or "best" would be present.

Meanwhile, the "prime of the Jedi" statement was issued during a time that the Order's numbers had dwindled to a "mere 10,000"

Did you not just read through my post (silly question, you make it a habit to read everything that comes out of my computer screen)? Their lower number is a condition that I listed for them being a less imrpessive order. A possible interpretation of the statement that I presented was that The Jedi were in their prime due to their era's relative level of peace.

and beginning the rise to power of the most powerful Sith Lord in history,

The beginning to the rise. Exactly. He hadn't risen to power quite at that time, ergo, it wouldn't undermine the idea that the Prime of the Jedi is in reference to something other than combat prowess and personal power.

where the dark side of the Force was beginning to take dominance.

Beginning.

It clearly refers to combat capability.

Prove it.

George Lucas and I > RoT and the EU > you.

No, it goes: Drew Karpyshyn and Karen Traviss > George Lucas and Nick Gillard > Gilliad Pallalaon > Publius.

Originally posted by Taven
LOL. Apparently after the 500 curbstomps you still] think you can win one against me.

Substantiate.

In a Galaxy Wide and over 20,000 year long organisation, define what it means to be "one of the best" or "one of the greatest."

In the greatest era for Jedi there's ever been, it's really not that much of a stretch to conclude that a few of these "greatest" or "best" would be present.

Did you not just read through my post (silly question, you make it a habit to read everything that comes out of my computer screen)? Their lower number is a condition that I listed for them being a less imrpessive order. A possible interpretation of the statement that I presented was that The Jedi were in their prime due to their era's relative level of peace.

The beginning to the rise. Exactly. He hadn't risen to power quite at that time, ergo, it wouldn't undermine the idea that the Prime of the Jedi is in reference to something other than combat prowess and personal power.

Beginning.

Prove it.

No, it goes: Drew Karpyshyn and Karen Traviss > George Lucas and Nick Gillard > Gilliad Pallalaon > Publius.

You know, I'm going to amend that actually.

Nadal > all of you... so good day.

Gideon, you are mistaken, because you are speaking about the incredibly reliable, omniscent, and non-biased Nebaris!

Originally posted by Taven
Good Lord, what is it with morons and being overly and annoyingly persistent?

Ask yourself, and you might get the answer.

Originally posted by Taven
Which Zannah notes with obvious high regard, as follows:

"Even though her technique was more refined than her Master's, she'd been able to withstand his assault ... so far."

Which speaks a hell of a lot for his saber technique, considering Bane's the guy who was able to perfectly memories and counter the millions of moves and sequences that make up all seven forms of the saber staff in under two years; in over five times the amount of time, it's pretty clear that he would have made a tremendous improvement and reached an extremely high level of ability, as it's noted that he spent time refining his technique during the period.

Wonderful, Nebaris, because Bane- a person who relied on battering opponents into submission via brute strength, speed, and his completely lack of need for defense is unlikely to be particularly refined in his movements. In addition, because he has knowledge of the moves utilizing by the saber staff does not mean he can proficiently use them- having knowledge of moves does not mean you can necessarily employ them. For example, I know the someone may be capable of a somersault- but does it mean I can do the same? Hardly.

Now, prove that Bane was amazingly refined, or drop the point.

Originally posted by Taven
And unlike these Masters, his training focused on combating the Sith, he would have most definitely fought them in the War (in response to Lightsnake bringing up the fact that he was a padawan during the war, Force sensitive children were called on to fight in the war, it's pretty clear Padawans would have received their fair share of battle experience), and as such would be much more specialised at combating lightsaber wielding Force Users than your three one trick ponies.

Grace =/= lightsaber refinery.

So, I'm expected to believe that if someone fought more often against people who wielded lightsabers, they are automatically better than people who had studied primarily to combat blaster technology? The PT Jedi have also sparred extensively with their peers, so they obviously had experience with fighting people wielding lightsabers.

Originally posted by Taven
As well as astonishing speed, elegance, and as an overall swordsman, was believed to possess few peers in the entire Galaxy, and when BM powered, was capable of outclassing Darth fricking Zannah.[B]

Let's compare 'Darth fricking Zannah' to the other famous practioner of Soresu in history, right? Obi-Wan Kenobi, who is acknowledged as the absolute master of Soresu, was capable of blocking 20 strikes per second and stunned Dooku with his 'bewilderingly fast defense'. The same Obi-Wan who outclasses her in every shape and form other than in force mastery. And do you remember Obi-Wan was from the PT-era, right?

And now, prove that he had few peers in the entire galaxy.

Originally posted by Taven
[B]How 'great' or 'fine' a swordsman is measures purely how good they are with the weapon itself, and that's it. Their speed, strength etc. doesn't tell you how good they are with the weapon, but rather how effective they would be able to use it in a miscellaneous situation, ergo, it has no effect on how great they are as swordsmen specifically.

If you believe otherwise, prove up on your stance.

I've proven over, and over again why greatness with a weapon in Star Wars mentions how good someone is, overall, with a blade. Your persistence is truly staggering.

Originally posted by Taven
Well he was only able to take two of them on at once, and it took him as long to defeat them as it did Mace to defeat Grievous. And while they're extremely technically skilled, at the end of the day, they're still just droids, they're not sensitive to the force, and as such, don't receive the many advantages that the Force provides them: such as the inhuman speed, strength, reflexes, or precognition. Shaak Ti was after all capable of holding her own against about twelve of them; they may have been 'more than a match for most Jedi,' but it's made quite clear that would stand literally no chance against an upper tier Jedi, which Sarro most certainly is, by virtue of deeds, reputation and proven ability.

Precognition? Sure. But the else? They are machines, and like Grievous, have machine-based reflexes that enable them to move faster than the eye can see (Revenge of the Sith Novelization). They are also study droids, implying that they, like Grievous, are capable of superhuman feats of strength- while that, specifically, may not be above a Jedi's ability, it's most certainly impressive.

Originally posted by Taven
Grievous was hardly in 'awe' of him, he simply stated that his assault on the many Jedi protecting the Chancellor might not have been so successful had he surrounded himself with Jedi such as the likes of Kit Fisto. Meaning even then, he only questioned whether he would be able to take on the likes of a group of Kit Fisto level Jedi, it's quite clear that he certainly didn't think of Kit as individually posing a threat against him.

Really? A person like Grievous, when noting the formidable abilities of a certain Jedi and noting the fact that they might prove a worthy challenge to him, especially when he had fought with Jedi like Shaak Ti and Ki-Adi-Mundi and was never said to be particularly impressed by their abilities in combat, it's quite obvious that he is looking at an exceptionally skilled combatant.

Originally posted by Taven
Yes. In numbers, training, battle experience, mentality, and emphasis on dueling and fighting against the Sith. Vastly inferior.

Refer to what Gideon said.

Originally posted by Taven
2. Even assuming that it's a canonical piece of narration, define it, and then get back to me, because power can be defined as the capacity to be effective, Yoda's labelled a direct foe of the 'darkness,' a force of nature that had lived throughout the ages and presumably can never be completely destroyed, and as such, it's highly likely that the quote is in allusion to Yoda's role in the grand scheme of things, and how much of a threat he had been to the darkness throughout the many centuries he had been alive. Now, prove up on your interpretation, or drop the point.

The typical Nebaris. Yoda was called the 'most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known'- seeing as every Jedi in history is, by definition, a foe of the darkness, it clearly establishes that Yoda has the most devastating power of any Jedi in history. It has nothing to do with the accumulated amount of time he spent battling the darkness. In fact, your entire point makes me 'lol' with how ridiculous it is.

Originally posted by Taven
3. Even assuming that Yoda was the most combat capable Jedi ever, he's an ancient Jedi Grandmaster who had lived for centuries and who's midi-chlorian level was presumably the highest of the PT era before Anakin came along. He's not an accurate representative of the Jedi Order as a whole, ergo, you have no point.

No- but Yoda had trained EVERY SINGLE Jedi in the Prequel Era. While he did not train them extensively, getting first-hand training from the greatest Jedi in history up to that point is certainly a factor in the overall power levels depicted in the Prequels.

Originally posted by Taven
Again, another Jedi who was essentially an anomaly within his Order. Not an accurate representative of the Order as a whole. Also, please source that quote, as I'm pretty sure it doesn't exist.

I don't own Shatterpoint, but I'm fairly certain that quote exists- but nevertheless, I'll stop using it due to the fact that I can't show you the quote in question.

Originally posted by Taven
Now you're just being ridiculous. Obi-Wan Kenobi's praise fully stems from his position within his Order. The structure or hierarchy within an Order doesn't speak for how the Order itself compares to those before or after it, ergo, you have no point.

No, but the fact that most of the greatest Jedi in history were produced by the so-called 'inferior' Jedi order speaks for the overall level of ability displayed within it. You really ought to stop trying to pass it all off as due to the individual ability of these certain Jedi.

Originally posted by Taven
2. Again, he's the Chosen One, another anomaly. He's not an accurate representative of his Order, ergo, you still have no point.

Who trained him to use the force to the same extent? Obi-Wan and the Masters of the Jedi Order.

Originally posted by Taven
Again, how good someone was in relation to the Order doesn't speak for the Order as a whole.

And once again, you fail to see how the Order that has released the greatest amount of top-tier force users in Galactic History says something for the order in its entirety, rather than just due to these people's personal ability.

Originally posted by Taven
LOL. Apparently after the 500 curbstomps you still] think you can win one against me.

Ah, yes, cue the predictable delusions of victory. Persistence in defeat isn't admirable, Nebaris, it's only pathetic and pitiful. Coming to these forums, weeks after your rather brutal defeat at my hands [the longest hiatus you've ever had on these boards], hasn't done wonders for your dull wit and misplaced intelligence. You're back on that slippery slope, a one way, inevitable trip to utter failure. Some people never change.

Substantiate.

In a Galaxy Wide and over 20,000 year long organisation, define what it means to be "one of the best" or "one of the greatest."

In the greatest era for Jedi there's ever been, it's really not that much of a stretch to conclude that a few of these "greatest" or "best" would be present.

Alas, there's a greater collective of duelists referred to as the best ever in the prequel trilogy moreso than your vaunted RoT-era. Ergo, it would seem to imply that the PT > RoT.

Did you not just read through my post (silly question, you make it a habit to read everything that comes out of my computer screen)? Their lower number is a condition that I listed for them being a less imrpessive order. A possible interpretation of the statement that I presented was that The Jedi were in their prime due to their era's relative level of peace.

Indeed, which means they are referred to as "the prime of the Jedi" despite their lackluster numbers and despite the fact that the dark side had been gaining strength for the advent of Darth Sidious.

The beginning to the rise. Exactly. He hadn't risen to power quite at that time, ergo, it wouldn't undermine the idea that the Prime of the Jedi is in reference to something other than combat prowess and personal power.

Your incompetence has seemingly blossomed over your little break; Palpatine's rise to power had begun, he had just been elected Chancellor and already dominated galactic politics even before.

Beginning.

According to Labyrinth of Evil, the dark side had been gaining strength for two hundred years prior to the events of that particular story, in preparation for the advent of Darth Sidious.

Prove it.

Just did.

No, it goes: Drew Karpyshyn and Karen Traviss > George Lucas and Nick Gillard > Gilliad Pallalaon > Publius.

Your inability to spell and develop funny material are becoming even more stagnant.

But surely you're used to defeat by now, Nebaris. Nothing new or suprising.

No, it goes: Drew Karpyshyn and Karen Traviss > George Lucas and Nick Gillard > Gilliad Pallalaon > Publius. [/B][/QUOTE]