Darth Bane + Darth Zannah Vs. Team Sent To Arrest Palpatine

Originally posted by Taven
Good Lord you're dense. All you've managed to do is list a bunch of in-order hierarchies, as well as name a few anomalies within the Order and list their accomplishments. For the former, the structure or hierarchy within an Order doesn't speak for the Order as a whole, and for the latter, an anomaly isn't an accurate representative of a sample. You haven't proven a thing for the Order as a whole. Try again.

LOL, Nebaris. Refer to my previous points- the fact that the PT Order had released the greatest amount of top-tier Jedi out of any Order speaks for its capacity as a whole, not only to these people's amazing personal ability, as they were trained by the talented masters of that certain Jedi Order.

I don't even need this, as Gideon had already displayed percisely how Lucas' quote puts their overall combat ability at above your precious Jedi Order. And, by the way, where did you curbstomp him? In your wet dreams?

Originally posted by Taven
Which is simply retarded. The higher numbers in the AoL times would apply to both the Masters and the students. Nothing indicates that the Master-student ratio would have been any different, meaning you have no point. For less care to be given in respect to training and such would require that the ratio between student and master be more in favour to the students for the AoL times in comparison to the PT times. Nothing even hints that as much is the case.

No, the Master-student ratio will probably not be different; however, due to the far lesser amount of Jedi, it's very much probable that they received far better and more extensive training by both the individuals in the Jedi Temple- which include a certain Master Yoda- and by their masters, who likely trained them better and more fully due to the great amount of time that passed, which will probably allow the Order to accumulate more and more knowledge over time.

In addition, the Order was led by Yoda for hundreds of years, so it's unlikely any knowledge would be 'lost', so don't even bring up that point. The only thing the previous Jedi Order have on the PT Order is the fact that they fought Sith more often- which is almost completely irrelevant, because other than two specific Sith, every single Sith in the BoD is a worthless piece of junk, as proven by their Bane's extremely low opinion of them. They focused on being soldiers, not Sith- they knowledge of the Dark Side was immensely limited, and it doesn't help that they were lead by incompetent fools like Lord Kaan.

Originally posted by Taven
Also, in case you missed the point, I was simply pointing out that Sarro was a larger fish in a far larger pond. That he was in such a position among such a higher number of Jedi speaks far more highly for his level of ability, as he would face more competition than others would.

Great. A Jedi Order that was trained to fight incompetent Sith- and prove that he was a 'larger fish', because the four who are up against Bane and Zannah are renowned as not only the end-all of the Jedi Order, but some of the best, and most skilled people in history, something that Sarro was never called.

Originally posted by Taven
There's also the cosmic effect that number of Jedi would have had on the Light side of the Force. As PoD notes, the darkside works best when focused in a small number, and the fact that Kaan's Order numbered in the thousands had been weakening and filtering the darkside. The opposite's the case with the Jedi; the higher the numbers, the stronger the light side of the Force.

Prove it.

Originally posted by Taven
We argue by virtue of what we know, and all that Agen has going for him is amazing technical ability. Sarro has the same, albeit to a lesser degree, but amazing strength, speed, grace, and elegance on top of that, and his reputation would indicate that he was higher up than the three were in his already far more impressive Order. When powered by Battle Meditation, he was capable of outclassing someone as powerful as Zannah (who as I said, would realistically be at a level of ability somewhere between Bane's PoD and Ro2 incarnations).

No, Zannah is extremely unlikely to be on the same level of Bane's PoD incarnation, where he displayed incredible strength, ability with the force, and speed- Zannah had never displayed anything even approaching that same level of power. Unless you can prove it, of course.

Agen has more than 'amazing technical ability', as I had proven multiple times in the past, but I don't expect you to be capable of seeing it, due in no small part to your bias and stupidity.

Originally posted by Taven
If you feel so strongly about it, prove up. Analyse the exact meaning behind 'greatest' and 'swordsmen,' examine what effect each word has on each other, use real world and literary examples, and prove, undeniably, that the statement measures more than just their technical ability. Do that, and then you can claim that Agen and Seasee and Kit have more going for them than just their technical ability.

Greatest swordsman. In the Star galaxy, a huge amount of swordsmanship is due to one's ability and attunement to the force, rather than exclusively skill levels. For example, Anoon Bondara was said to have lightsaber skills that were second to none, but we see Darth Maul completely outclassing him in combat.

Originally posted by Taven
It's not my problem if you want to pretend that the evidence isn't there, but sadly for you, it is.

Their numbers were higher, their training was superior, they were more battle hardened, there was a greater emphasis on dueling and combating the Sith, they possessed more of a warrior's mentality, and given, again, the numbers, the Light Side of the Force (what they draw on to power themselves up) would have most definitely flourished during the period.

Training was superior? LOL. If anything, it was inferior. More of a warrior's mentality. LOL. Prove it. Better light side of the force? PROVE IT. Numbers were higher? Points to the strength of the Jedi Order as a whole, not to the power of its individual members. More battle hardened? Compare the war they fought to the Clone Wars, and then prove that it was a greater war. In addition, the fact that there were less Jedi strongly implies that every single Jedi actively participated in the actual conflict, to a greater extent than the greater numbers of the old Jedi Order.

Originally posted by Taven
ROFL. I'd love it if you could prove any of that. Just because the others may not have displayed that much doesn't mean that they have little going for them. Also, why the hell are you bringing up the BoD, we're talking about the AoL and the Jedi Order that followed, keep up.

LOL! My god, I don't remember ever being so amused by someone's attempt at debating here. To quote you, with argue 'virtue of what we know', but when it comes down to the fact that the people you argue for have done absolutely nothing, 'absence of proof is not proof of absence'. You know what? They were all insanely fast, powerful, and were capable of destroying planets with their force abilities. They've never done it... SO WHAT? It doesn't mean they are incapable of it!

The Sith were, as you put it, hardly in touch with the dark side and were hardly even true Sith. Yes, they were a pathetic bunch of nobodys.

Originally posted by Taven
Replace 'all' with 'multiple,' and you'd be correct. No proof whatsoever that Mace was even proficient with Makashi.

Fair enough.

Originally posted by Taven
I don't really care enough about the point to search through a bunch of material and find the quote for you; at the end of the day, you made the claim that Windu had mastered all forms, the burden of proof falls on you to prove up, and you clearly can't (primarily due to the fact that it's impossible in this case, as the evidence is nonexistent).

I can't prove what specific forms he mastered, but he, at least, mastered most of them.

To put the rest of your post in other words: "LOL I made a stupid claim and I can't back it up, but who cares!"

Originally posted by Taven
He completely abandoned the practise of it, yes. I never stated that he would never use it again in a stand alone incident, but that's all it was, one time, to dupe Dooku [in n-canon material, but whatever, you'll only argue it].

There is, actually: noting its defencive flaws and the weakness and vulnerability that surfaced with Qui-Gon's death, he decided never to use the form again and start completely afresh with Soresu. How proficient he may have been with it matters little, as he no longer utilised it in combat.

The point I was making was that he only practised the form for half the time he did with Ataru. As talented as Obi-wan may have been, he was always that talented, both when he was practising Ataru, and when he was mastering Soresu. With only half the time spent mastering Soresu that he spent with Ataru, and no longer utilising his original form, common sense dictates that his technique went down by a fair margin.

Yes. Only that you have to prove that, instead of no longer making it his emphasis, he 'completely abandoned it', and never used it in combat- which is contradicted by how he utilizied it against Dooku.

In addition, during his ten years of practice between the point of TPM and AotC, he had access to more information, more mentors, and better training methods, due to his status as both a master of an insanely promising Padawan and as a talented Jedi Knight who struck down the first Sith Lord to surface in a millennia; plus, he had far more experience at his disposal, no doubt increasing his cunning. Clearly, he's superior to his TPM self, even while enraged.

Originally posted by Taven
They're not mutually exclusive. When you give into your rage, you tap into the dark side of the Force, which in turn provides a significant boost to your abilities. And that would be the only explanation, given how easily Maul was able to take down Obi-Wan's Master, Qui-Gon, and how Obi-Wan was stated to be 'not yet his equal.'

On the other hand, he was outright said to be quicker and, all in all, far superior physically when in comparison to Qui-Gon Jinn, which, along with his rage, is what enabled him to fare far better than his master against Darth Maul.

In addition, Qui-Gon Jinn, despite being of lesser technical skill, speed, and physical conditioning than Maul, put Maul on the defensive for almost the entire fight, and the TPM Novel supports the notion that Maul had to use his acrobatics to get away from Qui-Gon in time, due to the fact that Qui-Gon completely nullified his offensive and prevented him from launching a sufficient counterattack. It clearly wasn't 'easy' for Maul.

Originally posted by Taven
As has already been established, the ten years wouldn't have made that big an overall difference to his ability, and either way, prove up. Maul was vastly more technically skilled (being a high end master of multiple forms), was using an unorthodox weapon, and was physically far better conditioned. He clearly didn't have any trouble breaking through his Force defences and Force pushing him on his ass either. That Obi-Wan was able to compete with him at all would suggest that the rage provided tremendous temporary advantages.

It gives one a great boost of aggression and power- but sufficient to make up for 10 years worth of practice and experience? I highly doubt that.

Originally posted by Taven
That makes... absolutely no sense, whatsoever. So because they were Jedi of renown, Obi-Wan and Shaak Ti = history buffs? Right...

No. Obi-Wan and Shaak Ti, Jedi Masters of high renown and Council Members who, at least in Obi-Wan's case, were highly familiar with Yoda, a being who led the Jedi Order for hundreds of years and was an intellectual who constantly strived for knowledge in order to completely master the force- clearly, Obi-Wan's word his highly credible on the matters of history.

In addition, Mace Windu trained directly under Yoda and was, similarly, a Jedi legendary for his wisdom and skill, and was also a senior council members.

Also, according to the RotS novel, Yoda was personally told about the team assembled to take down Darth Sidious, who, as Dooku's master, was no doubt speculated by the Council to be greater than Dooku in terms of combat ability- Yoda had fought Dooku on two occasions, and would, undoubtedly, know the level of potential skill Sidious would possess. He wouldn't approve any but the Order's greatest swordsmen to attempt to arrest the Dark Lord of the Sith.

Originally posted by Taven
I never denied as much, but what separated Saesee from his fellow Jedi could have easily been his technical ability, and not his Force attunement, which could have just as well remained average.

Lol. It takes more than incredible technical skill to be one of the greatest pilots in a galaxy filled with millions of highly trained soldiers who are templates of Jango Fett, an amazingly skilled pilot in his own right- sorry, Saesee's training as a pilot (something Jedi placed little to no emphasis upon) is unlikely to be the deciding factor of him being an incredible pilot.

Originally posted by Taven
Amazing Force attunement and talent as a pilot. But that's Anakin. Anakin is not Saesee. What makes Anakin an amazing pilot doesn't have to be what makes Saesee an amazing pilot. Now, prove up on your claims, or drop the point.

Proven already.

Originally posted by Taven
No, it implies that as an overall pilot, he was exceptionally gifted. You can't prove that being that great a pilot demands even above average Force attunement, ergo, you have no point. Unlucky.

Not really; Jedi have precious little time to train in their little Starfighter due to the emphasis upon close-quarters combat and lightsaber training in the Order; being an amazingly gifted pilot requires both superb technical skill and force attunement, as displayed previously, by how Tiin was clearly superior to soldiers who were extensively trained in piloting.

Originally posted by Taven
As already established, no. Try harder.

Sorry. Being one of the greatest overall swordsmen in the Jedi Order's history requires an exceptionally high level of force attunement.

@Arnold- I know I shouldn't debate with him, but... well, someone needs to do it, eh?

No, if you ignore him he'll just get banned faster. Rex doesn't want to go through all that text.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

@Arnold- I know I shouldn't debate with him, but... well, someone needs to do it, eh?

Infact most of us has beaten him in debates for the last 2 years but he insists on coming back to annoy and let his bias dictate for him. He just won't shut up no matter how many times you stuff a sock up his ass.

Even the great gideon whom could handle nebaris with relative ease(in my point of view at least) can't get him to shut up hell even darth sexy is already sick and tired of arguing with a social reject and so am i.

Only rex can.

Lol, I think someone here's taking obsession to a whole new level. I don't even so much as try to initiate a single conversation with the guy, and the weirdo won't leave me alone. It would be cute if he was a chick, but sadly, he isn't, and hasn't been one for a very, very long time.

Originally posted by Gideon
Ah, yes, cue the predictable delusions of victory. Persistence in defeat isn't admirable, Nebaris, it's only pathetic and pitiful. Coming to these forums, weeks after your rather brutal defeat at my hands [the longest hiatus you've ever had on these boards], hasn't done wonders for your dull wit and misplaced intelligence. You're back on that slippery slope, a one way, inevitable trip to utter failure. Some people never change.

Well speaking of this Nebaris, who I am most certainly not, he just sent me a Private Message via a secret account that I swore to secrecy I wouldn't reveal, and would like to point out that his "hiatus" lasted little over a week, and that his then latest account didn't so much as direct a passing word at you.

Alas, there's a greater collective of duelists referred to as the best ever in the prequel trilogy moreso than your vaunted RoT-era. Ergo, it would seem to imply that the PT > RoT.

Implications FTW? Wait, that's not even an implication, it's what seems to be an implication. It's like half an implication. So rather than substantiating your claims, that's what your argument's relying on? Great argument there Gideon.

Now as I was saying to Sidi-boy, this is worthless to bring up until you can substantiate what being "one of the best" of a Galaxy wide, +20,000 year long organisation amounts to, and until you can substantiate that the number that the PT Order of Jedi produced was greater than that produced by the AoL Order of Jedi. Then you would also have to prove up on the idea that the higher the number of such Jedi produced by the Order perfectly correlates to the greatness of the Order itself. And you can't do any of that, ergo, bringing these ridiculous quotes up fails, every time. We don't know how many such Jedi the AoL may have produced, and we can't logically deduce that it was any more or less than the those the PT Order of Jedi produced. No comparison can be drawn.

Indeed, which means they are referred to as "the prime of the Jedi" despite their lackluster numbers and despite the fact that the dark side had been gaining strength for the advent of Darth Sidious.

Two point that do nothing to undermine my stance? Well at least you're improving.

Now back to what I was saying, you cannot undeniably prove that the only interpretation of the quote is that the Jedi were at the height of their personal level of power from a combat standpoint; you cannot undeniably prove my interpretation wrong, and your only attempt at a counter does nothing whatsoever at undermining the idea that the quote is made with respect to the era of peace that the Jedi oversaw. Meaning, as usual, you have no point.

Their lackluster numbers and the growing strength of the dark side say nothing about how peaceful the era had been, nor do they undermine the possibility of that being what the quote is in reference to.

Your incompetence has seemingly blossomed over your little break; Palpatine's rise to power had begun, he had just been elected Chancellor and already dominated galactic politics even before.

I was speaking in reference to the real position of power he would later rise to, though again, it doesn't matter. This, in no way, undermines the possible interpretation of the quote that I presented, ergo, you have no point.

According to Labyrinth of Evil, the dark side had been gaining strength for two hundred years prior to the events of that particular story, in preparation for the advent of Darth Sidious.

Again, my point being that the dark side hadn't yet completely taken dominance. The key word - "Beginning" would usually have indicated as much. Not that it matters, as again, this in no way undermines the idea that it was the Prime of the Jedi purely because of how peaceful the era was.

Just did.

No, you didn't. You provided three completely irrelevant pieces of information: the Jedi's numbers, Palpatine's rise to power, and the dark side's growth, in an attempt to undermine the idea that the Jedi were in their prime purely because of the fact that they policed a Galaxy of relative peace.

Your inability to spell and develop funny material are becoming even more stagnant.

And your ability to make sense sadly remains the same. Something doesn't become more stagnant. It's either stagnant, or it's not. Just like Gilliad Pallaleo isn't any more dead by the Legacy era than he was by the end of the LotF series. He's simply dead. And for good reason (only homos enjoyed his character).

But surely you're used to defeat by now, Nebaris. Nothing new or suprising.

LOL. The Publius comment hurt, didn't it?

No, it goes: Drew Karpyshyn and Karen Traviss > George Lucas and Nick Gillard > Gilliad Pallalaon > Publius.

That's what I just said.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Gideon, you are mistaken, because you are speaking about the incredibly reliable, omniscent, and non-biased Nebaris!

Well I'm glad to see you're starting to wisen up, at least.

Ask yourself, and you might get the answer.

Well it looks like someone's witty today.

Wonderful, Nebaris, because Bane- a person who relied on battering opponents into submission via brute strength, speed, and his completely lack of need for defense is unlikely to be particularly refined in his movements.

Just because Bane relies less on his technique doesn't mean he hasn't been progressing it to tremendous heights. Bane's a perfectionist, he literally spent his entire tutelage at the Sith Academy being the best he could be, sleeping a minimal number of hours a day, manipulating both Githany and Kas'im into giving him intensive training in both lightsaber combat and Force application, and spending virtually the rest of his time in the archives, supplementing his current training.

Now as I said, it's stated in Ro2 that he refined his technique during the ten year period that followed PoD, which is over five times the length of time he spent in PoD, where he was not only able to advance his own form, but perfectly memorise the millions of moves and sequences that make up the double bladed lightsaber, and apply that knowledge into countering them. If he can do all of that in under two years, common sense would dictate that he would have brought his own skills to enormous heights after ten further years of training.

In addition, because he has knowledge of the moves utilizing by the saber staff does not mean he can proficiently use them- having knowledge of moves does not mean you can necessarily employ them.

I didn't say that, though it's not improbable. In theory, it wouldn't be very difficult to transition the ability to apply knowledge of the many moves and sequences of a form into countering them, into applying that knowledge into being able to perform them. Being able to perform the moves is certainly not inherently more complex than being able to counter them, and it's far more likely that Zannah learnt how to wield the saber staff from a living, breathing being (Bane) rather than a holocron projection (it's also worth noting that both Revan and Freedon Nadd have always been depicted with a regular single lightsaber, or dual blades (in Revan's case), and never a double bladed lightsaber).

But no, again, that's not the point I was making: I was illustrating how quickly Bane was capable of learning the workings of the lightsaber, and applying that knowledge, and saying that if he was capable of perfectly memorising millions of form and sequences, and knowing how to counter them, on top of advancing his own form of combat, in over five times the amount of time, he would have been able to make far greater progress on learning and applying knowledge of the workings of a lightsaber than he had ever been able to do before (only rather than applying that knowledge into the countering of moves and sequences, he would be doing so into performing them (which isn't something inherently more complex, and thus wouldn't be more difficult in applying)).

For example, I know the someone may be capable of a somersault- but does it mean I can do the same? Hardly.

False comparison, logical fallacy.

Being able to perform a somersault has both its physical demands as well as theoretical demands.

Being able to perform or counter the moves and sequences that make up the style of a weapon, on the other hand, are only dependant on two things: knowledge of the moves and sequences, and the ability to apply that knowledge. No real physical demands.

Now, prove that Bane was amazingly refined, or drop the point.

Already done, logical deduction and common sense would indicate that he had a frightening level of lightsaber refinement. Now, stop trying to pull a [Taven]or drop the point[/Taven], we all know you want to be me, but I'm sorry to say that you don't quite have the skills to pull it off.

So, I'm expected to believe that if someone fought more often against people who wielded lightsabers, they are automatically better than people who had studied primarily to combat blaster technology?

Not undeniably, and I never said as much, no. The point is, it gives them an immediate advantage and one that should be taken into account. At the end of the day, if a Jedi bases his lightsaber training around lightsaber-on-lightsaber dueling more so than another Jedi, his technical prowess is going to be far more relevant if the two of them were ever to fight. What's so hard to understand about that?

The PT Jedi have also sparred extensively with their peers, so they obviously had experience with fighting people wielding lightsabers.

You know, I've started to notice that you just love to add unsupported bits of supplementary information to make your arguments seem more convincing, and because of that, I'm going to go out of my way to call you out on it everytime you do it.

Now, source where it's said that they sparred 'extensively,' or don't bring it up again.

Let's compare 'Darth fricking Zannah' to the other famous practioner of Soresu in history, right?

Sure thing.

She was believed by Bane to possess the greater strength in the Force out of the two of them, was stated by the omniscient narrator to possess an instinctive link to the darkside that rivalled his, and has been learning Sith Magic (which has shown to have insane enhancements on the learner's rate of growth) for ten years, whereas Bane was only able to learn from lesser sources for under three years as of PoD. Common sense would indicate that she was easily more powerful than Bane's PoD incarnation, who was already capable of handling the Force on a planetary level, and as such, she's infinitely greater than Obi-Wan in the aspect of lightsaber combat that the two biggest authorities in the matter: Yoda and Kas'im, believed to be the real determining factor, and on top of that, she's been mastering Soresu with a weapon that Obi-Wan can't be said to be familiar with, and one that would logically be best suited for Soresu practitioners (given its one real weakness: precision, isn't a very significant aspect of Soresu, whereas its strong suite: power, would only add to her defencive stance and give her a stronger and more dominant neutral standing) for ten years.

Zannah wouldn't just beat Obi-Wan, she'd stomp him.

Obi-Wan Kenobi, who is acknowledged as the absolute master of Soresu,

Within his era, yeah. Zannah, on the other hand, has been mastering Soresu for nearly as long, but on top of that, possesses a massive technical advantage in the form of her unfamiliar and superior weapon, and of course, there's her titanic superiority in Force ability that is logically the most significant factor here. Yeah, Obi-Wan hasn't got a chance.

was capable of blocking 20 strikes per second

So because Obi-Wan's specific displays of Soresu have been better documented than Zannah's, he's somehow at an advantage? Great logic.

and stunned Dooku with his 'bewilderingly fast defense'.

1. Invalid material.

2. Doesn't matter anyway, Zannah would be superior to Dooku as well for the very same reasons she's better than Obi-Wan.

The same Obi-Wan who outclasses her in every shape and form other than in force mastery.

He outclasses her, arguably, in one aspect: technical ability, but even that superiority's somewhat negated by Zannah's superior and unfamiliar weapon.

On the other hand, Zannah absolutely smashes him in what's considered by the biggest authorities to be and what is logically the real determining factor: Force ability.

And do you remember Obi-Wan was from the PT-era, right?

Had no idea.

And now, prove that he had few peers in the entire galaxy.

I wasn't arguing that he undeniably did, just saying that being renowned in such a way would indicate that he was a top tier Jedi, and one of the very best.

I've proven over, and over again why greatness with a weapon in Star Wars mentions how good someone is, overall, with a blade. Your persistence is truly staggering.

No, you haven't, all you've displayed is an inept application of the dictionary, and ridiculous attempts at Ipsedixitism.

Now as I said earlier, prove - undeniably - that the term fits your interpretation, and only your interpretation, or drop the point.

Precognition? Sure. But the else? They are machines, and like Grievous, have machine-based reflexes that enable them to move faster than the eye can see (Revenge of the Sith Novelization).

Their "machine-based reflexes" fail miserably when stacked up to precognition and Force enhanced reflexes, and their ability to wield their weapons faster than the eye can see is nothing special considering this is a setting where Jedi Padawans can move so quickly that they appear virtually invisible to human eyes (Obi-Wan in TPM).

They are also study droids, implying that they, like Grievous, are capable of superhuman feats of strength- while that, specifically, may not be above a Jedi's ability, it's most certainly impressive.

For the record, don't think that I believe that the Magnaguards suck or anything, because I don't. I'd rate them on the level of a low tier Jedi Master, easily, but Fisto's defeat of two of them doesn't truly change the fact that a BM powered Sarro is logically his firm superior. It does nothing to bridge the gap that everything we know about Sarro has created.

Really? A person like Grievous, when noting the formidable abilities of a certain Jedi and noting the fact that they might prove a worthy challenge to him, especially when he had fought with Jedi like Shaak Ti and Ki-Adi-Mundi and was never said to be particularly impressed by their abilities in combat, it's quite obvious that he is looking at an exceptionally skilled combatant.

That he didn't outright say the same thing about those that you mentioned doesn't mean that he would have felt differently. And again, back to what you were saying, you were making him out to be in awe of him, when he clearly didn't view him as even an individual threat whatsoever.

Refer to what Gideon said.

LOL. We all know you love to appeal to authority, but I'd suggest you stick to doing it with the Nick Gillard's of the LFL world, and not random KMC members.

The typical Nebaris. Yoda was called the 'most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known'- seeing as every Jedi in history is, by definition, a foe of the darkness, it clearly establishes that Yoda has the most devastating power of any Jedi in history. It has nothing to do with the accumulated amount of time he spent battling the darkness. In fact, your entire point makes me 'lol' with how ridiculous it is.

Firstly, either respond to this, or concede. Ignoring it won't make it go away:

1. I've already explained why the canonicity of that quote should be brought into question; it immediately goes on to say that the 'most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known' just didn't have what it takes to defeat Sidious, in response to a battle between the two that depicted Sidious kicking Yoda's ass all over the place, which clearly contradicts the movie. Now before you go on about narration and character thoughts not being subject to retcon, they are when they're dependant on invalid events, which is exactly what's the case.

Secondly, it would appear that insane level of 'lol'ing you've been performing is interfering with your ability to think. How 'devastatingly powerful' a being is has everything to do with how devastatingly they are able to apply their power. Yoda, having lived, fought against the darkness, and championed the light for centuries has simply been in a better position to be more devastating than nearly any other Jedi, and as such, the sheer fact that he's been able to fight the darkness for such a long period of time could have everything to do with how devastatingly powerful he was.

Of course, I'm not saying that such an interpretation has to be the correct one, but it's your burden of proof, and you're clearly incapable of proving how your interpretation is the only one that fits, and that mine is undeniably not the case.

No- but Yoda had trained EVERY SINGLE Jedi in the Prequel Era. While he did not train them extensively, getting first-hand training from the greatest Jedi in history up to that point is certainly a factor in the overall power levels depicted in the Prequels.

1. As you said, it wasn't first hand teaching.

2. The qualities of a teacher don't even come close to correlating with the qualities of the teacher's student. Simply being great doesn't make you a great teacher. For example, Hoth, one of the greatest Jedi - arguably the greatest - of the Army of Light gave first hand teaching to someone who turned out to be arguably one of the most laughable Jedi in the Order's entire history (Johun). His character was literally made to show the readers just how badly Jedi could potentially suck.

I don't own Shatterpoint, but I'm fairly certain that quote exists- but nevertheless, I'll stop using it due to the fact that I can't show you the quote in question.

It was Vaapad that was labelled "deadliest," not Mace Windu. Not that a case can't be made for Mace Windu being one of the deadliest Jedi ever, the point is, there isn't a quote in existence that states as much, and you shouldn't quote nonexistent statements.

[No, but the fact that most of the greatest Jedi in history were produced by the so-called 'inferior' Jedi order speaks for the overall level of ability displayed within it. You really ought to stop trying to pass it all off as due to the individual ability of these certain Jedi.

Most? So you're actually able to define exactly how many Jedi would qualify as "one of the greatest," and can see that the PT Jedi mentioned in such a way represent the majority of such a number? Remarkable work Sidi-Boy, really. Now, for those who haven't actually heard an explanation as of yet: prove - undeniably - that the few Jedi explained in such a way represent the majority.

Who trained him to use the force to the same extent? Obi-Wan and the Masters of the Jedi Order.

This is laughable. Again, refer to the above. The ability of a Master is nowhere near being fully testament to his student, and it works the same the other way around as well. Being the Chosen One and being very talented is what receives the credit for Anakin being as exceptional as he was. Not his Master, and not his Order.

And once again, you fail to see how the Order that has released the greatest amount of top-tier force users in Galactic History says something for the order in its entirety, rather than just due to these people's personal ability.

Again, prove that the few PT Jedi mentioned in such a way represent the majority, or even the modal average, of any Jedi who might qualify as "one of the greatest." The fact remains that you cannot give an accurate number of how many Jedi would qualify, and you apparently don't quite understand that the PT Jedi, being exposed in far more sources than those of any other Order, will have far greater opportunity to reveal their qualities and exploits than those of other eras. Just because more is documented about the PT Jedi in no way puts them on a level above any other Jedi Order.

Really Sidi, for those very reasons, this argument doesn't work. We don't have nearly the same amount of information on the AoL time period than we do on the PT time period, and when you have a galaxy wide, +20,000 year long organisation, those that qualify as "one of the greatest" likely number far higher than you actually think they do. Until you can actually substantiate that number, talking about this is pointless.

On the other hand, there is a way where we can compare both of the Orders where the lack of information on the AoL Order doesn't matter, and that's when we use concrete facts.

Fact: The AoL were trained primarily to combat opposing Force Users, whereas the Sith were believed extinct during the PT era, and emphasis on lightsaber dueling was at its lowest.

Fact: The AoL possess a far higher number of Jedi than the PT Order, meaning the top tier AoL Jedi would receive far greater competition for their top tier position than the Jedi in the PT Order would have, and meaning that the Light side of the Force (what Jedi draw on) would have been far stronger in the AoL era than it would have been in the PT era (especially considering the fact that the dark side had been growing stronger and diminishing the effects of the light side).

Fact: The AoL fought in the most devastating Jedi war there had ever been, against actual lightsaber wielding Sith, whereas the war experience of the PT Jedi was limited to the three year long Clone Wars that saw minimal Jedi-on-Sith/Dark Jedi Action.

Fact: The AoL possessed a warrior's mentality, whereas the PT Jedi considered themselves to be peacekeepers rather than soldiers.

I'm sorry, but you have no argument whatsoever. Logic would dictate that the Jedi of the Millenium long Jedi and Sith War were far greater, as a group, than the PT Jedi.

LOL, Nebaris. Refer to my previous points- the fact that the PT Order had released the greatest amount of top-tier Jedi out of any Order speaks for its capacity as a whole, not only to these people's amazing personal ability, as they were trained by the talented masters of that certain Jedi Order.

No, the PT Jedi has produced more recorded top-tier Jedi than any other Order of Jedi. The PT Jedi have also been featured in a multitude of comics and novels, whereas the AoL have been featured in two novels, one comic, and one short story.

Again, no conclusion can be drawn between the two Orders from this respect because there's no way of substantiating what it truly means to be "one of the greatest Jedi" in its entire +20,000 year history, and the fact that the PT Jedi are featured far more prominently in the EU than the AoL have means that they lack the opportunity to display as in comparison to the PT Jedi. The only way you can actually draw a conclusion between the two Orders is by doing what I have, and the PT Jedi get beaten by a mile.

I don't even need this, as Gideon had already displayed percisely how Lucas' quote puts their overall combat ability at above your precious Jedi Order. And, by the way, where did you curbstomp him? In your wet dreams?

No, he didn't. The possible interpretation to the quote that I presented was that GL may have been speaking with respect to the era of peace that the PT Jedi oversaw. All that Gideon posted evidence of is the darkside growing stronger, Palpatine rising in power, and their lack of numbers. None of that counters what I was saying about the era being one of peace.

No, the Master-student ratio will probably not be different; however, due to the far lesser amount of Jedi, it's very much probable that they received far better and more extensive training by both the individuals in the Jedi Temple-

And at the same time, the ratio of 'advanced teacher' and 'student furthering their training' can't be said to be any different either - at least, you don't have a logical standpoint in claiming that it was more favourable for the PT Jedi. What you need to understand is that the greater number alone doesn't change anything about teacher-student dynamics. Only the student-teacher ratio would do that, and the greater number can't be said to have any real effect on that ratio whatsoever. You have no argument.

which include a certain Master Yoda- and by their masters, who likely trained them better and more fully due to the great amount of time that passed, which will probably allow the Order to accumulate more and more knowledge over time.

Blind speculation. Worthless to bring up.

In addition, the Order was led by Yoda for hundreds of years, so it's unlikely any knowledge would be 'lost', so don't even bring up that point.

...Didn't even come close to crossing my mind until you brought up. Though, I have to say, I don't think your justification for it could have been any worse. So the fact that Yoda had been leading the Jedi for hundreds of years means that knowledge can't have been lost? Thanks for informing me.

The only thing the previous Jedi Order have on the PT Order is the fact that they fought Sith more often-

No, it was their mentality as Jedi, their training that revolved around fighting Sith, their large numbers, and how strong the light side was during their era on top of their battle experience, that was, again, specific to lightsaber practitioners and darksided Force Users.

which is almost completely irrelevant,

Right. The fact that they had been fighting in a war against the Sith for their entire lives, whereas the PT Jedi had received three years of war experience that saw minimal Force user-on-Force User action is almost completely irrelevant? That makes sense.

because other than two specific Sith, every single Sith in the BoD is a worthless piece of junk, as proven by their Bane's extremely low opinion of them

1. He had a low opinion of their ideals, and that was it. Kaan, someone who he had as low an opinion of as any of the other BoD, was later thought upon as a powerful figure by Bane, so clearly his low opinion of them had nothing to with their personal power or combat prowess.

2. Even if they did suck royal donkey dick as combatants like you appear to think, it's still battle experience against Force Sensitive Lightsaber Practitioners - a bit more beneficial to their dueling capabilities than a three year war against battle droids and mercenaries I'd say.

They focused on being soldiers, not Sith- they knowledge of the Dark Side was immensely limited, and it doesn't help that they were lead by incompetent fools like Lord Kaan.

True, their knowledge of the dark side was somewhat limited, and the darkside was spread among too many Sith, but their level of combat prowess (which wasn't affected by any of that) was at its highest. Fighting the Jedi through brute military force was a double edged sword. The dark side was spread too thin, but at the same time, the Sith were better trained and more experienced at fighting Jedi than the collective Sith of any other Order.

Great. A Jedi Order that was trained to fight incompetent Sith-

Your appeal to ridicule amounts to nothing. They were trained to combat opposing Force Users in the most efficient and deadly way as they possibly could. They had been fighting the Sith for an entire millenium; even if these Sith were 'incompetent' as you described them, it's pretty clear that they knew how important it was to destroy them and wouldn't be taking them lightly.

and prove that he was a 'larger fish',

Given he was renowned within his Order to only be equalled by few beings in the entire Galaxy, it's pretty clear that he was one of the very best lightsaber duelists in the entire Order. It's likely only Raskta was his superior. Agen, Saesee, and Kit on the other hand were clearly a good notch below the likes of Yoda, Mace Windu, Depa Billaba, Obi-Wan, Anakin, and can't be said to be above the likes of Plo Koon or Cin Drallig either, not to mentioned the likes of Sidious, Dooku, Assaj Ventress, Durge, General Grievous, or Sora Bulq.

because the four who are up against Bane and Zannah are renowned as not only the end-all of the Jedi Order, but some of the best, and most skilled people in history, something that Sarro was never called.

Already been addressed. Until you can substantiate what being "one of the greatest" Jedi in the Galaxy wide Order's +20,000 year long history, and prove that Sarro -- given his reputation and proven abilities -- wouldn't qualify, you have no argument.

Prove it.

Already have. The light side of the Force is said to be at its strongest when spread over large numbers of Jedi. The number of Jedi being far lower during the PT era, and the darkside weakening the Light Side of the Force and diminishing the Jedi's ability to use the Force, would indicate that the Light Side of the Force was far more potent in the AoL times.

No, Zannah is extremely unlikely to be on the same level of Bane's PoD incarnation, where he displayed incredible strength, ability with the force, and speed- Zannah had never displayed anything even approaching that same level of power. Unless you can prove it, of course.

She hasn't displayed it, but as I've proven, she definitely possesses it.

1. By Bane's own admission, she possesses strength in the Force that surpasses his own.

Now, that alone wouldn't be conclusive. How her length of experience and training stacks up to his matters a hell of a lot as well, which is what's so crucial about piece of information number:

2. She had been training for ten years, over seven more years than Bane's PoD incarnation.

Still not conclusive, however. Whether she would be able to progress as quickly as Bane had would still be up for question, which is why we have info #:

3. The omniscient narrator declares her instinctive grasp of the dark side of the Force to rival Bane's own.

Which is more than supported in the JvS comic, considering how -- before receiving any training whatsoever -- she was capable of instakilling two Jedi at will, and defending herself and her immediate surroundings from the BoD's Force Lightning Storm Ritual, which was described as consuming everything in its path, and shown to literally decimate Jedi Knights, mass infrastructure and the Forest environment.

So clearly her rate of growth was at least close to Bane's. Now of course, while that seemse pretty conclusive, there still is one question. How does her knowledge of the Force compare?

4. She had been learning Sith Magic for her entire length of training, in comparison to Bane's two years of studying from lesser sources.

Yeah... now it's conclusive. There's simply no way Bane's PoD self can be argued to be more powerful than her. His Ro2 incarnation? Without question. But not his PoD self. That she hasn't displayed as much (though it's not as if she hasn't displayed anything; her sorcery was able to break through the Force defences of trained Jedi with ease, and she was capable of waltzing into the Jedi Temple and shielding her Force alignment from every Jedi she came across) is insignificant.

Agen has more than 'amazing technical ability', as I had proven multiple times in the past, but I don't expect you to be capable of seeing it, due in no small part to your bias and stupidity.

Again, Ipsedixitism doesn't win debates. You may think that you've proven up, but truth is, you don't know what proof is.

Greatest swordsman. In the Star galaxy, a huge amount of swordsmanship is due to one's ability and attunement to the force, rather than exclusively skill levels.

No, their attunement to the Force tells us how effectively they would be able to apply their swordsmanship in combat; their swordsmanship itself purely measures how good they are at using the weapon itself.

For example, Anoon Bondara was said to have lightsaber skills that were second to none, but we see Darth Maul completely outclassing him in combat.

The point you would be making is?

Training was superior? LOL. If anything, it was inferior.

Were you not just agreeing with this earlier? And now you're disagreeing with a nonexistent argument? "If anything, it was inferior" - that's it? Wonderful argument.

Now again, their training was focused around fighting against opposing Force Users, and lightsaber duelists, and fighting as soldiers in wartime. Not only is it far more battle orientated than that of the PT Jedi, but far more specific to fighting against other Force Users and Lightsaber Practitioners.

More of a warrior's mentality. LOL. Prove it.

Good God you're stoopid. So you're trained specifically to fight your most hated enemies in a war that's been going on for a milennium, you fight in that very war your entire life, your only goal in life is to in-part aid the defeat of said enemies though brute force, and somehow you're not going to possess more of a warrior's mentality than a bunch of peaceful, passive Jedi that lived the most of their life in a time of peace, and for the most part, spent as much time acting as ambassadors than being combatants?

Better light side of the force? PROVE IT.

Well I didn't quite phrase it like a five year old, no, but it's already been proven. The AoL possessed a higher number of Jedi for the Light Side of the Force to be spread over, and didn't receive the effects of the dark side of the Force actually making the Light Side of the Force weaker, like the PT Jedi did.

Numbers were higher? Points to the strength of the Jedi Order as a whole, not to the power of its individual members.

Why do I get the impression you're trying awefully hard to be like me?

And no, it speaks highly for the few top Jedi of the Order (which Sarro most certainly was), given that there would be a larger number of Jedi that said position puts him over. The greater the competition for a position, the more it suggests about the person who takes the position.

More battle hardened? Compare the war they fought to the Clone Wars, and then prove that it was a greater war.

Are you being purposely stupid? The Jedi fought in the Jedi-Sith war their entire lifes, against lightsaber practitioners and opposing Force Users, on a near day-to-day basis, at least during their active service. The Jedi of the Clone Wars acted, in part, as behind the scene generals, in a war that lasted three years, that saw minimal Jedi-on-Sith/Dark Jedi action.

In addition, the fact that there were less Jedi strongly implies that every single Jedi actively participated in the actual conflict, to a greater extent than the greater numbers of the old Jedi Order.

Ah, so the Jedi-Sith War didn't fully require all of the Jedi's numbers, huh?? That's the explanation? That would of course be why the AoL were so desperate for more numbers that they started recruiting children with only the slightest semblance of Force potential purely to aid their war effort. Yeah, you're absolutely right; they simply possessed way too many Jedi on their hands and had no idea what to do with them. Makes sense.

LOL! My god, I don't remember ever being so amused by someone's attempt at debating here. To quote you, with argue 'virtue of what we know', but when it comes down to the fact that the people you argue for have done absolutely nothing, 'absence of proof is not proof of absence'. You know what? They were all insanely fast, powerful, and were capable of destroying planets with their force abilities. They've never done it... SO WHAT? It doesn't mean they are incapable of it!

Right, let's compare:

I say that given that Agen can only be said to shine in one area: his technical ability, and that Sarro's ability is elaborated on and held in high praise on almost every level, it's only logical to assume that Sarro has him beaten in every other area.

You say that because the BoD, with the exception of Bane and Kas'im, displayed nothing, they're all a bunch of incompetent fools that suck ass in combat, even though their Order was the most militant collective group of Sith there had ever been.

1. The difference is that my assumptions in the face of the unknown have all been neutral, whereas all of your's have been enormously one sided.

2. With Agen's unknown level of ability, nothing points to them being either above or below average, whereas with the BoD, they were at least one of the most militant group of Force users ever, and as such, their combat prowess would likely be well above average, even if the dark side that they drew on and their knowledge of the Sith ways was somewhat limited.

Yeah, as far as false comparisons go, you're slowly but surely becoming the man. Keep at it.

The Sith were, as you put it, hardly in touch with the dark side and were hardly even true Sith. Yes, they were a pathetic bunch of nobodys.

Well don't you just love a false conclusion!

I can't prove what specific forms he mastered, but he, at least, mastered most of them.

You get "most" from "multiple?"

To put the rest of your post in other words: "LOL I made a stupid claim and I can't back it up, but who cares!"

No. The claim that I can't be bothered to support has absolutely no effect on my argument whatsoever, and something that from a debating standpoint, I never had to bring up and support in the first place, given you were the one making the claim that Mace Windu had mastered very single lightsaber form.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
[B]Yes. Only that you have to prove that, instead of no longer making it his emphasis, he 'completely abandoned it', and never used it in combat- which is contradicted by how he utilizied it against Dooku.

No, there's no contradiction. He utilised it against Count Dooku in a stand alone instance to trick him into believing he was an extremely poor combatant and a practitioner of Ataru. That doesn't change the fact that he chose to stop practising with it, and decided to never use it again in a regular circumstanced battle situation, due to the form's defencive vulnerabilities.

In addition, during his ten years of practice between the point of TPM and AotC, he had access to more information, more mentors, and better training methods, due to his status as both a master of an insanely promising Padawan and as a talented Jedi Knight who struck down the first Sith Lord to surface in a millennia;

Wishful fanon. Nothing indicates that Obi-Wan was in any way favoured in such ways after TPM.

plus, he had far more experience at his disposal, no doubt increasing his cunning. Clearly, he's superior to his TPM self,

Not denying that, just not as superior as ten years would realistically make somebody, due to the fact that he started afresh with his new, chosen form of combat, and only spent half the time practising it as he had done with Ataru. His general experience, and Force ability, and "cunning" may have gone up, but his technique would have realistically gone down by quite a bit.

even while enraged.

This begs for proof. Arguing from personal belief is not a valid argument.

On the other hand, he was outright said to be quicker and, all in all, far superior physically when in comparison to Qui-Gon Jinn, which, along with his rage, is what enabled him to fare far better than his master against Darth Maul.

Well at least you're recognising that it was a Force enhanced rage, which was exactly my point.

In addition, Qui-Gon Jinn, despite being of lesser technical skill, speed, and physical conditioning than Maul, put Maul on the defensive for almost the entire fight, and the TPM Novel supports the notion that Maul had to use his acrobatics to get away from Qui-Gon in time, due to the fact that Qui-Gon completely nullified his offensive and prevented him from launching a sufficient counterattack. It clearly wasn't 'easy' for Maul.

He only put Maul on the defencive twice; the first time, after he had knocked Maul off the platform, and was able to keep him on the defencive by preventing him from regaining his composure; the second time, purely because of the newly regained strength his momentary meditation provided him. As for the ease of Maul's win, that's up for debate, but it doesn't matter whatsoever as to the point you were making.

As I said, you cannot substantiate Obi-Wan's level of ability as of AotC, ergo, Kit Fisto outclassing him is meaningless. You cannot substantiate exactly how much his Force augmented rage aided him in his battle with Maul, and you cannot substantiate his improvement during the ten years between TPM and AotC.

It gives one a great boost of aggression and power- but sufficient to make up for 10 years worth of practice and experience? I highly doubt that.

It was sufficient to make up for the immense gap between he and Maul, and the ten years likely saw a good decrease in his technical ability anyway. Again, you cannot substantiate how close AotC Obi-Wan is to his force empowered TPM self, ergo, bringing up his performance against Maul during TPM proves nothing.

No.

From a literary standpoint, that is - for all intents and purposes - exactly what you were saying. Your point was that Jedi of renown will naturally be well learned on Jedi History.

Obi-Wan and Shaak Ti, Jedi Masters of high renown and Council Members who, at least in Obi-Wan's case, were highly familiar with Yoda, a being who led the Jedi Order for hundreds of years and was an intellectual who constantly strived for knowledge in order to completely master the force- clearly, Obi-Wan's word his highly credible on the matters of history.

So because Yoda was arguably extremely well learned on the matter, Obi-Wan is as well via association? Yeah, there's a reason why honour by association is a logical fallacy. Being highly familiar with Yoda doesn't mean that his presumable high level of knowledge on Jedi Lore is going to rub off on you.

In addition, Mace Windu trained directly under Yoda and was, similarly, a Jedi legendary for his wisdom and skill, and was also a senior council members.

Your point? Mace Windu didn't make the claim, and neither did Shaak Ti for that matter, not to mention anyway that Mace Windu isn't exactly someone who can be argued to be especially well learned on Jedi Lore either. Only really the Ancient Jedi and the historians can.

Also, according to the RotS novel, Yoda was personally told about the team assembled to take down Darth Sidious, who, as Dooku's master, was no doubt speculated by the Council to be greater than Dooku in terms of combat ability- Yoda had fought Dooku on two occasions, and would, undoubtedly, know the level of potential skill Sidious would possess. He wouldn't approve any but the Order's greatest swordsmen to attempt to arrest the Dark Lord of the Sith.

Well, technically speaking, as the movie shows us, there was no such thought process or choice selection whatsoever. Mace Windu and his Jedi party were all ready to go confront Palpatine and ask him to lay down his emergency powers, Anakin reveals the fact that he's a Sith, and with the very same party, he immediately leaves anyway. No such feedback from Yoda or real thought put into it whatsoever.

Lol. It takes more than incredible technical skill to be one of the greatest pilots in a galaxy filled with millions of highly trained soldiers who are templates of Jango Fett, an amazingly skilled pilot in his own right-

So... it takes more than just technical piloting skill to be one of the greatest pilots in a Galaxy full of technically skilled pilots (Jango Fett templates)? Yeah... that makes sense.

Being serious now, I never claimed that Saesee didn't possess anything more than technical piloting ability; as a Force User, he automatically possesses two extreme advantages in the form of precognition and enhanced reflexes. What I'm saying is that you cannot undeniably prove that an above average level of Force ability would be absolutely required to be as good as Saesee was, or that a high level of technical ability couldn't make up for a poor affinity to the Force.

sorry, Saesee's training as a pilot (something Jedi placed little to no emphasis upon)

1. Even if that's the case (which you haven't provided any proof for), that would just undermine Saesee's high position as a pilot within the Order in the first place (which is where his real credit comes from, not simply "impressing Anakin Skywalker"😉.

2. A high level of talent could easily make up for a poor level of training. That Saesee may not have been very well trained does not deny the fact that he may have possessed astonishing technical ability as a pilot, that made up for a lack of exceptional Force ability in making him as good a pilot as he was.

is unlikely to be the deciding factor of him being an incredible pilot.

Argument from personal belief, logical fallacy.

Now prove up on your claim that Saesee Tiin was in any way above average with the Force, or drop the point.

Proven already.

No, you haven't.

Not really; Jedi have precious little time to train in their little Starfighter due to the emphasis upon close-quarters combat and lightsaber training in the Order;

Prove up on the assertion that little emphasis was placed on piloting, or that there weren't individual classes for it as part of Jedi training, because you haven't provided any proof whatsoever. And then substantiate how Saesee needs to have been well trained to be a great pilot in the first place, and that he wasn't a prodigy and amazingly talented.

being an amazingly gifted pilot requires both superb technical skill and force attunement,

Fallacy of Division.

as displayed previously, by how Tiin was clearly superior to soldiers who were extensively trained in piloting.

1. He already receives a tremendous advantage in the first place for simply being a Force User (whether he was an average Force User, below Average Force User, or Above Average Force User, he receives the same benefits), in the form of his enhanced reflexes and precognition, which could easily make up for a lack of technical ability in comparison to others not sensitive to the Force.

2. Even if Saesee wasn't very well trained himself (you've yet to prove up on that), an amazing talent could easily make up for that, and put him on par from a technical standpoint with such trained pilots. Or at least close enough for his force ability to bridge the gap.

At the end of the day, your argument that "amazing Force Using Pilot = Amazing Force User" remains completely unsupported, and idiotic. As it stands, nothing points to Saesee being in any way above average in any area other than his ability as a pilot, and his technical prowess with a lightsaber.

Sorry. Being one of the greatest overall swordsmen in the Jedi Order's history requires an exceptionally high level of force attunement.

Well you've been wrong the last 500 times you stated it, and guess what: you're still wrong. Again, if how fine a swordsman is measures how effectively you can use it in combat, than the time freezing Hiro Nakamura or Smallville's Flash would be considered finer swordsmen than these amazingly skilled Jedi Masters. Makes total sense.

I don't think Arnold's vocabulary is that good.

Originally posted by Taven
Lol, I think someone here's taking obsession to a whole new level. I don't even so much as try to initiate a single conversation with the guy, and the weirdo won't leave me alone. It would be cute if he was a chick, but sadly, he isn't, and hasn't been one for a very, very long time.

Oh, Jesus. Nebaris, you remind me a lot of Jeremey Hunsicker, who fronts a Journey tribute band called Frontiers. You try to make yourself well known, popular, and respected by parrotting someone who is ultimately more brilliant and more accomplished than yourself, as he attempts to mimic the great Steve Perry. See, I pointed out correctly how you continue to Google my name and various usernames and attempt to hack into my accounts for no other purpose than to become closer to me; everyone is aware of your stalker-esque obsessions. And you turn around and attempt to call me obsessed? Please. At least Hunsicker realizes that Perry will always outshine him. You're like one of those obscenely twisted and psychotic fans who shot John Lennon and if it weren't for the fact that you spend all of your time in your mother's basement on these forums, I might be worried that you would try to kill me.

Well speaking of this Nebaris, who I am most certainly not, he just sent me a Private Message via a secret account that I swore to secrecy I wouldn't reveal, and would like to point out that his "hiatus" lasted little over a week, and that his then latest account didn't so much as direct a passing word at you.

Of course he didn't direct a passing word at me. He's much too frightened for a direct debate and prefers to Google from the shadows of his mother's basement.

Implications FTW? Wait, that's not even an implication, it's what seems to be an implication. It's like half an implication. So rather than substantiating your claims, that's what your argument's relying on? Great argument there Gideon.

It's not an implication. It's an observation. More duelists from the PT era are considered among the greatest ever than ones from the RoT era.

Now as I was saying to Sidi-boy, this is worthless to bring up until you can substantiate what being "one of the best" of a Galaxy wide, +20,000 year long organisation amounts to, and until you can substantiate that the number that the PT Order of Jedi produced was greater than that produced by the AoL Order of Jedi. Then you would also have to prove up on the idea that the higher the number of such Jedi produced by the Order perfectly correlates to the greatness of the Order itself. And you can't do any of that, ergo, bringing these ridiculous quotes up fails, every time. We don't know how many such Jedi the AoL may have produced, and we can't logically deduce that it was any more or less than the those the PT Order of Jedi produced. No comparison can be drawn.

No comparison can be drawn and yet you're the one claiming that the RoT-era Jedi are obviously better. That's a comparison. Or does basic logic elude you? This is what I refer to when I mention your double standards. You're pathetic, Nebaris, and you seem to forget that we do things my way around here. My way involves single standards. You conform or you lose. Hell, even if you did, chances are you'd still lose.

Two point that do nothing to undermine my stance? Well at least you're improving.

You can't improve perfection, Nebaris, thus I remain the same.

Now back to what I was saying, you cannot undeniably prove that the only interpretation of the quote is that the Jedi were at the height of their personal level of power from a combat standpoint; you cannot undeniably prove my interpretation wrong, and your only attempt at a counter does nothing whatsoever at undermining the idea that the quote is made with respect to the era of peace that the Jedi oversaw. Meaning, as usual, you have no point.

Not good enough. If what you say is true, then you can't claim that your interpretation is correct, either. Thus, if no comparison can be drawn, you can't conclude RoT-era Jedi are better. Another double standard.

Their lackluster numbers and the growing strength of the dark side say nothing about how peaceful the era had been, nor do they undermine the possibility of that being what the quote is in reference to.

Wrong, it means that the quote isn't referring to numbers or peace. Thus combat. Lucas > you.

I was speaking in reference to the real position of power he would later rise to, though again, it doesn't matter. This, in no way, undermines the possible interpretation of the quote that I presented, ergo, you have no point.

Again, Palpatine dominated galactic politics through his networks and contacts under his own command and that of his alter ego, Darth Sidious. He was de facto galactic leader long before he ever claimed official leadership. Meaning that he was already directing the course of the galaxy. Meaning? It's not referring to peace.

Again, my point being that the dark side hadn't yet completely taken dominance. The key word - "Beginning" would usually have indicated as much. Not that it matters, as again, this in no way undermines the idea that it was the Prime of the Jedi purely because of how peaceful the era was.

LOL. Beginning counts for two hundred years? You've reached new levels of depressingly impotent, Nebaris. The dark side was rising for two hundred years for the preparation of Palpatine. Meaning? It's not referring to peace.

No, you didn't. You provided three completely irrelevant pieces of information: the Jedi's numbers, Palpatine's rise to power, and the dark side's growth, in an attempt to undermine the idea that the Jedi were in their prime purely because of the fact that they policed a Galaxy of relative peace.

Palpatine's rise to power, the Jedi's dwindling numbers, the dark side's ascension, the Stark Hyperspace War, various diplomatic disputes = no peace.

And your ability to make sense sadly remains the same. Something doesn't become more stagnant. It's either stagnant, or it's not. Just like Gilliad Pallaleo isn't any more dead by the Legacy era than he was by the end of the LotF series. He's simply dead. And for good reason (only homos enjoyed his character).

You... do realize that no one finds this funny?

LOL. The Publius comment hurt, didn't it?

It cuts me.

There's a website petitioning every username you've ever used to be entered in the Dictionary as an antonym of funny.

Originally posted by Gideon
You... do realize that no one finds this funny?

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
I don't think Arnold's vocabulary is that good.

... wat?

My god, Nebaris. I honestly can't be bothered to destroy 4 pages of ranting the same things over and over again.

So, let's say, your argument is based on the following:

The AoL Jedi Order is far superior to the PT Jedi Order. Your reasoning? More experience fighting with Sith, better warrior mentality, and somehow superior training. And that little thing is absolutely ridiculous- because, for example, Count Dooku, a person who literally spent decaded refining his form of choice- that certain for that, incidentally, focused the most on saber-to-saber dueling- was taken aback by Anakin Skywalker's ability and ferocity during the points of AotC, despite that same Anakin having never fought a Sith in his life and being a mere Padawan. In addition, Dooku was overwhelmed and forced to run for his life when he was confronted by Yoda, a person who had little to no experience in the last known centuries fighting Sith (for all we know).

As for the better 'superior warrior's mentality'? Ridiculous. Yoda, the most powerful Jedi in history up until that point, considered himself a teacher and a sage rather than a fighter, and was still the strongest Jedi of his order and of all time (superior to Raskta, Sarro, and co.).

As for that final point about superior training is, also, ludicrious, because, as you said, the Order grew to recruiting children to their war effort- it's logical that during the time of the war, training was as rushed as possible, only giving the 'average Jedi' far more limited time to study in comparison to PT Times, when the Jedi had far more time to refine and train themselves.

Now then- I know that your double standards cause you to apply the whole 'absence of proof' only when relevant to your argument and to your sides, but let's do a comparison of the 'uber Jedi' featured in both the AoL and in the PT Era, shall we?

PT Era:

-Anakin Skywalker
-Mace Windu
-Obi-Wan Kenobi
-Yoda
-Sora Bulq
-Depa Billaba
-Saesee Tiin
-Kit Fisto
-Agen Kolar
-Shaak Ti
-Count Dooku

AoL:

-Raskta
-Maybe Sarro
-Maybe Farfalla

Considering what we've seen- and according to you, we argue 'virtue of what we know', it would appear that the Prequel Jedi have a far greater number of effective duelists when compared to basically any other Jedi Order, the AoL included. As for Lucas' 'prime of the Jedi' statement? He said it when he was making a direct reference to a fighting context- in addition, someone's 'prime' is defined as following in dictionary.com:

"the period or state of greatest perfection or vigor of human life: a man in his prime."

Yes. 'Prime' is defined as the period of time when a certain thing has achieved perfection, or at least the thing closest to it during it's 'lifetime'. It has absolutely nothing to do 'peaceful times'.

As for your points about Zannah, you think she is superior to the PoD incarnation of Bane, Dooku, and Obi-Wan due to the fact that she had more raw power than Bane and had more training, right? I don't think so. I'll first make a case for Obi-Wan:

While Obi-Wan did not display any particularly special force talents in the context of a pure force fight (so thus, Zannah will stomp him in a pure force fight), he had indeed displayed the ability, on multiple times, to completely let the force do the work for him (fight against Grievous, against Magnaguards), giving him an incredible chance of survival in a pure lightsaber duel- in addition, he was hailed by Mace Windu, a person with over 50 years of experience, to be 'The Master of Soresu'. He also had FAR more time to refine himself when put in comparison to Zannah- he was capable of blocking a prodigious 20 strikes per second and was also capable of handing assaults from the likes of Dooku and Anakin Skywalker. Sorry, in terms of lightsaber dueling? He's superior.

As for Dooku, you have even more of a case. He trained himself over decades to become the ultimate display of refinery and grace in lightsaber combat (about a million times better than Sarro)- he was capable of completely curbstomping Obi-Wan Kenobi in combat, despite said Obi-Wan (in his AotC incarnation) being a uniquely talented Jedi of high renown. He also had immense talent in force engagements, being able to easily tool Asajj Ventress, an immensely skilled Dark Jedi via the force, and also had more than ten years of training under Darth Sidious, the most powerful Sith Lord in history- he both has far more dark side knowledge than Zannah, as Sidious had access to a far greater range of information than Bane, and was also far more knowledgable. Sorry, Dooku is obviously superior to Zannah.

Now then, to finally destroy the little thing about Kolar's technical skill. How 'great' someone is, with a blade, in Star Wars depends just as much on force attunement and abilities as it does upon technical skill. The end.

As for that little point about Yoda not being the most devastatingly powerful foe of the darkness, it was issued when in reference to a battle with the Dark Lord of the Sith- in addition, 'devastatingly powerful' means that he possessed the most devastating power out of any Jedi in history. Sorry, I can't even think of another way to interpret that certain quote. In addition- the fight only implies that Sidious had the advantage in the duel, it hardly makes the details of the battle clear. And when you look at it from a certain point of view, Sidious did possess the advantage at certain times in the duel depicted in the movie, such as when he forced Yoda to jump around like a crazy fog in the pod-throwing scene, and later when he disarmed him rather casually.

Gideon, has Publius posted any more parts of the Sidious essay, I believe you said the next one would deal with him being the dark lord of the sith.

Hey Noobaris, come mess with my account. I want a justification to shut off your phone line so you don't come back online.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

So, I'm expected to believe that if someone fought more often against people who wielded lightsabers, they are automatically better than people who had studied primarily to combat blaster technology? The PT Jedi have also sparred extensively with their peers, so they obviously had experience with fighting people wielding lightsabers.

Precisely. They SPARRED with their peers. People sparring are not trying to kill each other. They trained in lightsabre duelling basically for tradition and to get a deeper understanding of how to use it properly, not because they needed to know how to battle a lightsabre-wielding foe.

That's like comparing a swordsman who grew up and was trained to use a sword in an era when sword skills were vital for survival with a fencer who studies swordsmanship as a hobby. Which is going to be best in actual combat?

Yes, they "obviously had experience with fighting people wielding lightsabers." Just no-where near to the same level as Sarro, Raskta and the Jedi of their era. No-one is claiming that Kit, Agen etc were useless swordsmen. It's just common sense that the Jedi whose training was focused around battling lightsabre-wielders and have extensive experience in doing so, will be better at duelling than Jedi who went through their training never expecting to have to fight another lightsabre-wielder and have comparitively very little experience in doing so in actual combat. Why is this so hard to understand?

You seem very biased againt the 'Old Republic' Jedi to me.