Originally posted by Creshosk
And does wolverine go around killing petty gang bangers? or does what he kills be soldiers of different sorts? Hydra and the hand for example.
Well... usually the gang bangers have committed a serious crime to invoke Wolverine's wraith, but my previous post was funnier without me clarifying. 🙁
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
[b]Note: This might need to be moved to the Comic Book Forum, but it mostly concerns the Versus Forum and debates, so I thought I'd post it here first.I was wondering if we, as a board, can vote Wolverine Origins out of continuity? Just decided to out right ignore everything that takes place with in? We have the PIS and CIS rules to ignore isolated feats, but we really should have something in place to ignore entire runs when they do nothing but tarnish the history of the characters involved... and what better run to start with than Wolverine Origins? Wolverine Origins is a train wreak, it does nothing but rape Wolverine's character and we should make an example of it by banishing it form continuity. Can we put it to a vote or get a Mod ruling?
No story before Wolverine Origins has managed to butcher a character on the same level Way has with Wolverine. Not a single worth while thing has come from this series. Seriously, it is an outrage. It's almost like the point of Origins is to disregard every heroic character trait Wolverine has, to completely destroy his character... and turn him into a mass murder, a torturer, and even a war criminal responsible for the execution of women and children. Where is the man of honor? Gone. There is virtually no ties between the character established in previous Wolverine stories and the man present in Origins.
Wolverine's past as established in Origins makes him a villain ,and one that his significantly worse then most of Marvel's big bads. Even if I'm supposed to buy that he has reformed, feels guilty about his past and wants to redeem himself for his actions (which has aways been Wolverine's stick), the stuff he has done is so heinous, that nothing short of death will suffice. If he had any sort of honor (and considering he supposedly lives by Bushido... ) he'd kill himself out right or turn himself into the authorities for his war crimes and be executed. Because of Origins, Wolverine loses all his credibility. How can someone lecture Magneto to his face when he has done things far, far, FAR worse?
Nothing in the story meshes at all. It is completely out of character for Wolverine, and disregards every character driven moment in Wolverine's past. I can't imagine why anyone would allow Wolverine to walk around free considering his past. If Hitler survived in Marvel and started wearing spandex and fighting crime because he felt bad about what he did, do you think Captain America would team up with him? No, he'd kick his ass all over the place. No one would tolerate it... why do they tolerate Wolverine?
It's not like he is even a puppet on strings either, nothing thus far suggest he was anything other than a willing participate... he even gives orders to people. Before Origins we all knew Logan had done some shady stuff int the past, but it was all under the pretences that he wasn't in control of his actions; that he was being brain washed and mind controlled, feed false information and manipulated. He certainly seems pretty in-control to me... and how does that play well with what's been established before?
Wolverine was always supposed to be a man of honor, one prone to fits of extreme violence, but a man of honor none the less. Where is that Wolverine? Where is the fallen Samurai?
The whole run is so out of character, for Wolverine. I think we as a forum need to address this with a forum ruling to banish Wolverine Origins from continuity, or a new rule to address when a character has been so miss handled across an entire arch not just a single incident. [/B]
Is it canon?
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Origins, undermines Wolverine's character. It destroys every value and believe system the character has been attributed with over the years... but expects us to believe he is still that character. It turns Wolverine into a joke; into a hypocrite that has no legs to stand on.
Erm ....Wolverine's 'character' did not need Origins to, what did you say, turn him into a joke, a hypocrite with no legs to stand on.
Various writers for Logan have done that over the years, particularly in the 80s and 90s.
However, you do have a point in that comic characters are merely pictorial fiction ....a writer can come and make Superman able to blow away planets, and then another one comes and makes him strain to lift a car. There is always the danger of new writers distorting a character, and that is what one has to face when they are dealing with ...well ....pictorial fiction.
The only danger in writing off entire runs as PIS is that it leads to what many people have already mentioned ...a slippery slope! Before you know it, people will be trying to cut off entire sections of a character's history either because it makes their favorite character look bad, or it makes a character that they do not like appear strong.
For instance, there are a number of Wolverine portrayals that I find pure cr@p ....literally. And to be honest the only reason Origins stands out is because it is recent ....some of the stuff i have from the 80s and (early) 90s should be classified as comedy! But i have never said it should be thrown out ....I just make fun of it when it pops up in the forum and try to logically break it down.
Anyways, I see your point (and you honestly have a good point). It is just that it would lead to a major slippery slope, and all characters (including Wolverine, even excluding the Origins run) have major inconsistencies.
Different writers bring different themes, and while for the most part it is natural evolution in a character's base-line, every now and then some person will come by and just jar things.
It's as if Daniel Way is mentally retarded or something. I mean it's been like this since he started writing Wolverine after Millar's run. Even though House of M was an alternate reality, there's still no Way Fury should have owned him like that..calling him boy and such nonsense. Even in House of M, Wolverine was older than Fury. It was as if Daniel Way thought Wolverine would be better if he had S.H.I.E.L.D training behind him. As if his time with Ogun wasn't nearly enough or something. Then someone finally told him about Wolverine's past and he thought he could make up for it by having Wolverine fight Silver Samurai and speak Japanese. Yeah...then Origins comes along and we are treated to a fight between Wolverine and some old Lady in the White House..seriously, you can't make this up. He roughs her up demanded who was behind Weapon X. As having all of his memories back reminded him of what he already knew - a secretive organization captured him and forceably bonded his skeleton with Adamantium - but he doesn't know who or why. Hmmm...funny, the only thing he remembered about Weapon X was how mad he was at them. lol..twenty years ago, he was doing his best to put his past behind him. Now he's out for revenge against Weapon X for what they did to him even though he knew what they did before he got his memories back? Oh that makes sense. Also, he seems to take Claremont's best plots, tear them to pieces and regurgitate them into some twisted nonsensical, out-of-line way. Like the Maramasa blade - Wolverine had it forged so that he could take himself out, or something..then he goes and grabs it and carries it around with him. Which of course makes sense if you're out for revenge. I mean, if you were going to kill a bunch of baddies, and there was a weapon that nobody knew about that could put you down for good even though you can heal virtually any other injury, wouldn't YOU carry that thing around with you. Of course! What else would you do? I mean, it's not like he could have just stopped by the X-mansion and given to to Cyclops before that. He had to carry it around with him and use it on a bunch of robots and then take Nuke out with it. Because you know..it's just not enough to have six of the sharpest blades housed in your forearms..you gotta have a giant red sword that can kill you just for kicks. Also, the whole thing with Seraph was just painful to read. Here you have the whole Wolverine meets Captain America story - something that was special when it was originally conceived by Claremont. A defining moment in Logan's life where he helps out Captain America using the skills he learned from Ogun. At this point, we could definitely call Wolverine a hero. Well, I guess not anymore since he betrayed Bucky and Cap. I mean, the whole story that Claremont originally thought of just makes Wolverine look like a slimeball villain as Srank mentioned. He was a hero when he met Cap and it should stay that way. Who does Way think he is making him into some creep. Besides, why would Cap ever trust him again after that? Why wouldn't Cap warn the X-men? Why wouldn't S.H.E.I.L.D.? You know..I have a funny feeling that all of Way's work will be dealt with somehow by Marvel..then again maybe I'm an optimist.
Also, what happened to Wolverine's Stealth ability? He has to set places on fire just to break into banks next door. Also, he uses an axe to break through the concrete even though he has the claws. Makes sense to me! Then there's Dakken...what a horrible mess of a character. He's some New Kids on the Block reject with ugly purple hair that pawns Wolverine by magically being in the place that Wolverine isn't looking. All without super speed or invisibility. It's a skill he learned from the Master...who apparently knows some combat techniques that have never been utilized by anyone else. No one knows about this magical skill of being where a person isn't looking. Not Ogun, Stick, Elektra, Black Panther, Captain America. Shang Chi, or Iron Fist have demonstrated this ability..but this purple 80's freak learned it from Romulus who is a super baddy no one has ever heard of yet it powerless to stop Apocalypse from messing with Wolverine and Sabretooth. Yeah sure....with all of the Villians the X-men have crossed, you would think Professor X or someone would actually know about Romulus. You think they would have faced him before but no...he just shows up when no one is looking because he has the skill of being in the place where no one is watching. Yet, at any given time, he can power up Sabretooth or Wild Child...it just doesn't add up at all. The continuity just doesn't' allow for such a big character to fit.
The Deadpool fight was also total PIS. Pool displayed almost no h2h skills and was made to look like some failed Van Damn double or something. The only display of h2h that I can remember is him flipping Wolverine over his back. No fancy kicks, flips or anything just explosive grenades and ACME gimmicks. It was as if the writers for Wiley Coyote spent two weeks huffing gas and then decided to write the plot for the last arc of Origins.
And the worst part is, it's not over..Wolverine is just a loser scum mass-murderer that no respectable hero would ever tolerate. Apparently, Professor X looks kindly upon war criminal-sickos. Yep..Logans killed hundreds of women and children..he'd be perfect for my dream. Will Wolverine be a sexual offender by the end of this thing? It wouldn't surprise me at all...
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Dum Dum koyed Logan by shooting him in the back of the skull with a hand gun. Everyone in Origins is all over the place.And Way is the guy who wrote Wolverine taking a nuke point blank in Venom... a bit of a discrepancy.
Eh
Then just treat it is a low end feat for Wolverine. It happens.
This arc also starts the hole thing about Wolverine haters. They love to bring up the stupid arguement about someone with a gun will beat Logan by putting a bullet in his brain. However in past arcs Wolverine has taken on army's with many guns and kicked thier asses.
Yeah, I can't stand Origins and haven't read any of it. It's by far the worst story of Wolverine ever made. I wish that this arc can be thrown out of KMC and Marvel. But however if this happens than we might as well throw out other arcs that doesn't portray any other character well.
Originally posted by Endrict NuulLike say, Wildcat from the JSA, who nearly single-handedly defeated the Inustice Society in a rampage, and defeated someone with the spear of destiny, but sometimes a group of MA's will rough him up?
This arc also starts the hole thing about Wolverine haters. They love to bring up the stupid arguement about someone with a gun will beat Logan by putting a bullet in his brain. However in past arcs Wolverine has taken on army's with many guns and kicked thier asses.Yeah, I can't stand Origins and haven't read any of it. It's by far the worst story of Wolverine ever made. I wish that this arc can be thrown out of KMC and Marvel. But however if this happens than we might as well throw out other arcs that doesn't portray any other character well.
Every character has their good and bad.