Wolverine Origins (MODS please read)

Originally posted by Soljer
Indeed. Everyone else just cares about being entertained for a short period of time.

Which, clearly, tens of thousands of people [b]are by Origins. [/B]

If we are being honest... Most of Wolverine Origins are worth the price for the cover alone. There have been some AMAZING covers on this series. I know they say "never judge a book by it's cover" but I'm sure a causual reader faced with three Wolverine solo titles, just grabs the one that looks the best... and the die hard fans just buy it because Wolverine is in it. If it was the same story with Cyclops, it wouldn't have gotten past issue 4.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Yes but we have examples of PIS stupidity in the Rules Section as examples of what it is. If we had a rule that allowed entire runs to be disregarded, why not used Origins as the example?

The plot is Origins is so ridiculous and out of line with the character, that we need a new rule to deal with it. It's existence doesn't make and sense. I don't see why having a rule to disregard archs for their stupidity and lake of continuity in their characterization, is so far removed from disregarding feats of a ridiculous nature that are influenced by the plot.

It is kind of like ignoring filler episodes in an anime... not sure why it is such a big deal.

It's nothing like ignoring filler episodes. You're advocating ignoring a single 616-canon story because you don't like the way a character was portrayed.

On the other hand, filler episodes are typically ignored wholesale. Regardless of characterization or power - even if these two are spot on, the episodes are ignored. Not due to some bias, but because the story belongs to it's original author, or authors. The artist's original vision did not include these pieces of filler; they were just added to stretch things out.

Now, I could see you arguing that Wolverine's characterization does not match the 'artist's' original vision, but in this case Wolverine doesn't belong to Roy Thomas, Herb Trimpe, Len Wein, Jack Abel, Christie Scheele, or Artie Simek - pretty much everyone involved with the production of The Incredible Hulk 180. Rather, Wolverine belong to Marvel, the artist in question is an abstract collection of artists - any Wolverine writer. A group which, unfortunately, includes Way at present. Therefore, his artistic vision is just as valid as any other writers, even if I, personally, find it distasteful.

Originally posted by Mindset
Most people are stupid though. 😠

Yup.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
If we are being honest... Most of Wolverine Origins are worth the price for the cover alone. There have been some AMAZING covers on this series. I know they say "never judge a book by it's cover" but I'm sure a causual reader faced with three Wolverine solo titles, just grabs the one that looks the best... and the die hard fans just buy it because Wolverine is in it. If it was the same story with Cyclops, it wouldn't have gotten past issue 4.

Haha. A Cyclops solo. Good joke. 😛.

Originally posted by Starscream M
because

1) it is hard to reach a consensus. Sure you and many others may think origins is a load of shit, but what about those who don't?

2) it is a slippery slope that opens floodgates for people to bring other things to be banned...which would not be good.

Anyone here think Wolverine Origins is good? Anyone here think Wolverine Origins hasn't butchered Wolverine's character? Anyone here think a war criminal who willing took part in mass murder, torture and some light genocide is in anyway in line with Wolverine's established character? None of it makes any sense. If Wolverine was any of those... why is he still walking around? He is supposed to be a hero now. Why hasn't anyone tried to apprehend him? Why hasn't he turned him self in (being a man of honor with a guilty conscious), or baring that why hasn't he killed himself samurai style? I don't think anyone would be cool with Red Skull turning all noble and figthing crime, why does Cap or Fury let Wolverine do it? It makes no sense. It should all be disregarded.

Originally posted by Soljer
Lulz. Keep dodging.

The cache size is something we use to describe microprocessors. I don't see a 'microprocessor' in cache size, so clearly we can also apply it to automobiles, no?

Damn, that Dodge Viper's got a [b]huge cache! Yeah! And did you hear about it's clock speed? Jesus! Don't get me started on the front side bus. [/B]

No Mentioning Events of PIS
Plot Induced Stupidity, or PIS, is when characters don't use their abilities or skills to the fullest extent as shown before, even within their personality ranges, for the sake of the story plotline. It makes lesser powered characters an actual challenge against higher powered characters in the comics. Examples of PIS include Flash stories lasting longer than three panels, or Toy Man as a threat to Superman.

Character Induced Stupidity, or CIS, on the other hand, refers to any natural mental limitations that characters impose upon themselves and reduce their ability to use their own skills and powers effectively. Unlike PIS, CIS does not occur because the plot requires it, but because the character is genuinely that dumb. Examples of the CIS-afflicted include characters such as Rhino or Jar Jar Binks. Events of CIS are not exempt from debates.

The "No PIS" Rule

PIS = Plot Induced Stupidity

At times, for the sake of the plot, characters that are immensely more powerful than their opponent will "job" to carry on the plot of the story, even though the characters powers and history would clearly show that they are more than capable of destroying their opponent. For this reason we have a No PIS Rule. This rule prohibits the use of such instances of PIS from being used as evidence in debates.

The way the rule is written it seems as if it does refer to specific events. Now then.

This part here:

At times, for the sake of the plot, characters that are immensely more powerful than their opponent will "job" to carry on the plot of the story, even though the characters powers and history would clearly show that they are more than capable of destroying their opponent.

I challenge to you that Wolverine doesn't use any of the honor, any of the personal code of ethics that was developed over more than thirty years of his character.

His honor his "holding back" if you will. that CIS is not exaempt from these debates.

The entire run disregards any "honor" stat that he has. It disregards his personal history. We disregard onslaught's stupidity in regards to juggernaut. It ignores events of his back story. Such as the fact that Juggernaut met Cyttorok before. Yet in Onslaught they had him meat him for the first time. Thus in roleplaying terms he failed a history check. MEANING they disregarded that knowledge, that skill, that ability for the sake of the plot.

Now then, in these various games there is also an ettiquite skill. Which this entire run disregards on wolverine that he's proven to have.

It ignores his skill, his knowledge with history. It ignores his skill and his knowledge with morals and ethics, with that in mind its the entire run that's composed of one feat, one event, one social combat after another. EACH one disregards these skills that he already has. Don't like me refering to role playing games? ITs just a way of making something more relatable. It in no way changes the fact that using knowledge is a skill.

For example a skill in debate. Using knowledge of syntax, philosophy. We do outside of roleplaying games refer to people as "skilled debaters" Regardless of wether you like it or not it is a skill. So to is manners and ettiquite. Knowing what to say and when to say it. just as knowing how to strike, and when to stirke. Skills are knowledge.

Over 30 years has this character been around. and then this arc comes out which totally disregards everything about the character.

One event occurs that ignores the characters past. Its PIS.
Another one occurs that ignores another part of the past. It too is PIS.
A third one occurs sequentially after the other two that is likewise PIS.

Eventually you string enough events together you get a story arc. Since we disegard events of PIS, we might very well wind up ignoring an entire story arc, is all it is is one event of PIS right after the other. IT totally ignores the characters history, as far as their powers, knowledge, skills and ability.

Again I'll ask you. Where does it say that PIS is limited to feats? Your false analogy is amusing. But the word FEAT still appears no where in the definition of what PIS is. regardless of what you infer from the rule.

The wolverine origins run disregards Wolverine's skills of ettiquite, of ethics, of manners. All those skills that he was proven to have over 30 years. Disregarded for the sake of the plot. Therefore, the entire ARC is PIS the ENTIRE arc is disregarded.

You disagree? You ignore the characters previous 30 years for what? one year two?

I'm sorry but 30>2

The entire arc is pis, the entire arc is ignored. plain and simple and its in the forum rules.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Fine. You wanna be that way try this on for size:

The way the rule is written it seems as if it does refer to specific events. Now then.

This part here:

I challenge to you that Wolverine doesn't use any of the honor, any of the personal code of ethics that was developed over more than thirty years of his character.

His honor his "holding back" if you will. that CIS is not exaempt from these debates.

The entire run disregards any "honor" stat that he has. It disregards his personal history. We disregard onslaught's stupidity in regards to juggernaut. It ignores events of his back story. Such as the fact that Juggernaut met Cyttorok before. Yet in Onslaught they had him meat him for the first time. Thus in roleplaying terms he failed a history check. MEANING they disregarded that knowledge, that skill, that ability for the sake of the plot.

Now then, in these various games there is also an ettiquite skill. Which this entire run disregards on wolverine that he's proven to have.

It ignores his skill, his knowledge with history. It ignores his skill and his knowledge with morals and ethics, with that in mind its the entire run that's composed of one feat, one event, one social combat after another. EACH one disregards these skills that he already has. Don't like me refering to role playing games? ITs just a way of making something more relatable. It in no way changes the fact that using knowledge is a skill.

For example a skill in debate. Using knowledge of syntax, philosophy. We do outside of roleplaying games refer to people as "skilled debaters" Regardless of wether you like it or not it is a skill. So to is manners and ettiquite. Knowing what to say and when to say it. just as knowing how to strike, and when to stirke. Skills are knowledge.

Over 30 years has this character been around. and then this arc comes out which totally disregards everything about the character.

One event occurs that ignores the characters past. Its PIS.
Another one occurs that ignores another part of the past. It too is PIS.
A third one occurs sequentially after the other two that is likewise PIS.

Eventually you string enough events together you get a story arc. Since we disegard events of PIS, we might very well wind up ignoring an entire story arc, is all it is is one event of PIS right after the other. IT totally ignores the characters history, as far as their powers, knowledge, skills and ability.

Again I'll ask you. Where does it say that PIS is limited to feats? Your false analogy is amusing. But the word FEAT still appears no where in the definition of what PIS is. regardless of what you infer from the rule.

The wolverine origins run disregards Wolverine's skills of ettiquite, of ethics, of manners. All those skills that he was proven to have over 30 years. Disregarded for the sake of the plot. Therefore, the entire ARC is PIS the ENTIRE arc is disregarded.

You disagree? You ignore the characters previous 30 years for what? one year two?

I'm sorry but 30>2

The entire arc is pis, the entire arc is ignored. plain and simple and its in the forum rules.

clapping

/bow

From your own quotes. PIS is defined as an instance of jobbing to an opponent.

If you feel that the entire run of Origins is an instance of Wolverine jobbing to an opponent, feel free to argue that anytime someone brings up Origins.

Doesn't mean the run is ignored wholesale.

I don't have much issues with Origins...admittedly Im a VERY casual fan of Wolverines.

Anyone here think a war criminal who willing took part in mass murder, torture and some light genocide is in anyway in line with Wolverine's established character?

--- redemption is a key theme in many famous literary characters, don't see why it would be so weird for Logan

He is supposed to be a hero now. Why hasn't anyone tried to apprehend him?

--- how many people know about his past? he barely knew much of it himself...what with that amnesia and stuff.

Why hasn't he turned him self in (being a man of honor with a guilty conscious), or baring that why hasn't he killed himself samurai style?

--- killing himself doesn't do society much good, if it is even possible. He can redeem his crimes much more practically by protecting innocents and defeating dangerous villains. What good does he accomplish by offing himself, other than maybe get a smug sense of false honor and satisfaction?

It makes no sense.

---- thats your opinion. nothing more, nothing less.

Alright, guys. I dunno about all of you, but I'm off from work tomorrow, considering it's the fourth of July. So...I'm gonna finish Snake in the Eagle's Shadow, go pick up my girl from the airport, and then do nothing but have fun and get ****ed up for the next 48-72 hours or so. No hard feelings, I've had a good time discussing this with you, and you know I love you, 😍 .

Assuming this thread isn't eighty pages by the time I return (and considering it's already five, that's not too unlikely), I may take some time to discuss this with you guys some more then. Have a great weekend, everyone.

Originally posted by Starscream M
I don't have much issues with Origins...admittedly Im a VERY casual fan of Wolverines.

Anyone here think a war criminal who willing took part in mass murder, torture and some light genocide is in anyway in line with Wolverine's established character?

--- redemption is a key theme in many famous literary characters, don't see why it would be so weird for Logan

He is supposed to be a hero now. Why hasn't anyone tried to apprehend him?

--- how many people know about his past? he barely knew much of it himself...what with that amnesia and stuff.

Why hasn't he turned him self in (being a man of honor with a guilty conscious), or baring that why hasn't he killed himself samurai style?

--- killing himself doesn't do society much good, if it is even possible. He can redeem his crimes much more practically by protecting innocents and defeating dangerous villains. What good does he accomplish by offing himself, other than maybe get a smug sense of false honor and satisfaction?

It makes no sense.

---- thats your opinion. nothing more, nothing less.

I pretty much addressed this in my original post. The stuff he did is so awful that the only why for him to even come close to redemption would be some grand heroic gesture that ended in his death... and it would have to be something that saved a shit load of lives. I could work with it if Wolverine was written as a guy with a death sentence who felt he needed and deserved to die... but who's healing factor prevented seppuku, so he jumped into dangerous heroics hoping for a heroic death and kept escalating the danger level, moving form a soldier, to a government agent, to the X-Men, and finally to the Avengers. But that isn't how he is written.

Samurai believe that seppuku is the method of regaining lost honor... it is a very honorable death for the samurai and allows them to save face.

Seriously though. Nothing in Origins in line with with Wolverine's character. Nothing is in line with any of the seven codes of Bushido. Wolverine in Origins is a worm of a man.... who someone made a complete 180 and now goes around lecturing villains for not being half as bad as he was... then he tries to kill them.

Originally posted by Soljer
From your own quotes. PIS is defined as an instance of jobbing to an opponent.

If you feel that the entire run of Origins is an instance of Wolverine jobbing to an opponent, feel free to argue that anytime someone brings up Origins.

Doesn't mean the run is ignored wholesale.

So regardless of whether or not you think entire runs should be disregarded, eventully in the manner they will be.

Because a plot IS nothing more than one event happeneing after another until they stop.

Time itself is nothing but a series of instances, of events, happening subsequently. One right after the other. As I type each letter, its a moment in time. as you read each word, its a moment in time. The event of writing, the event of reading. The entire time we spend on a message board. One event, one thread, one post, one paragraph, one sentence, one letter. one after the other.

So too is a plot nothing more than one event right after the other. Ironman, Black bolt, The avengers the x-men. nothing but a sequence of events for world war hulk. a series of fights. a series of encounters. all together these events become the story arc.

If all the events, all the instances all the moments in time are stupid. they are all disregarded. til eventually there is no more arc. no more events. the entire arc gets disregarded.

If this thread is moved. It is stating already that all the events are bad. each is to be ignored. you argue that they should each be ignored in turn. so they will be, because thats how it happens.

All of origins is bad. All of origins is to be discarded. Since not all of origins is used in any fight, just the parts that are used will be discarded.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin

Seriously though. Nothing in Origins in line with with Wolverine's character. Nothing is in line with any of the seven codes of Bushido. Wolverine in Origins is a worm of a man.... who someone made a complete 180 and now goes around lecturing villains for not being half as bad as he was... then he tries to kill them.

Originally posted by Starscream M
😆 😂 😆

I know, WTF, right? 🙁

Originally posted by Creshosk
if each instance, and I mean each and every instance is PIS that ignore thirty years of character history. then each and every instance of PIS will be ignored. Eventually the whole run is ignored.

So regardless of whether or not you think entire runs should be disregarded, eventully in the manner they will be.

Because a plot IS nothing more than one event happeneing after another until they stop.

And if that's the case, then there is no need for any new rule, we can use the existing PIS rules, and you can argue every panel of Origins falls into that category. Doesn't mean there's a new Mod-instated forum rule saying "Origins no es bueno."

EDIT: Seriously now. *gets back to Snake Fist style*.

Originally posted by Soljer
And if that's the case, then there is no need for any new rule, we can use the existing PIS rules, and you can argue every panel of Origins falls into that category. Doesn't mean there's a new Mod-instated forum rule saying "Origins no es bueno."

EDIT: Seriously now. *gets back to Snake Fist style*.

It doesn't have to be in the rules officially.

Origins, undermines Wolverine's character. It destroys every value and believe system the character has been attributed with over the years... but expects us to believe he is still that character. It turns Wolverine into a joke; into a hypocrite that has no legs to stand on.

Technically you're not a hypocrite if you no longer do what you once did. People who overcame their personal problems and seek to warn of the dangers they themselves faced, for example are not hypocrites.

If you touch a hot stove and burn your hand, you are not a hypocrite for preventing others from doing the same.

There is nothing hypocritical about turning on that what you once were. its only hypocritical if you denounce it, and then continue to do it yourself.

The only thing that can excuse such a thing is an addiction. If you find yourself addicted to a drug, but denounce drugs as evil. So long as you truly do not want to be doing it you are not hypocritical.

If Hilter went around to high schools to lecture about intolerance and violence in the day, and at night put on spandex and went out to stop acts of violence and intolerance by beating the tar (and occasionally killing people), everyone would be like "WTF Hitler, you where responsible for the deaths of millions of people? And now you go around and kill petty gang bangers, even though you where responsible for mass genocide? What the hell, dude? Where do you get off?" They wouldn't ask him to join the Avengers... I don't think.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
If Hilter went around to high schools to lecture about intolerance and violence in the day, and at night put on spandex and went out to stop acts of violence and intolerance by beating the tar (and occasionally killing people), everyone would be like "WTF Hitler, you where responsible for the deaths of millions of people? And now you go around and kill petty gang bangers, even though you where responsible for mass genocide? What the hell, dude? Where do you get off?" They wouldn't ask him to join the Avengers... I don't think.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Technically you're not a hypocrite if you no longer do what you once did. People who overcame their personal problems and seek to warn of the dangers they themselves faced, for example are not hypocrites.

If you touch a hot stove and burn your hand, you are not a hypocrite for preventing others from doing the same.

There is nothing hypocritical about turning on that what you once were. its only hypocritical if you denounce it, and then continue to do it yourself.

The only thing that can excuse such a thing is an addiction. If you find yourself addicted to a drug, but denounce drugs as evil. So long as you truly do not want to be doing it you are not hypocritical.

He hasn't really stopped, so much as changed his venue. He used to kill innocent people en mass... now he kills villains in bulk. 😄

He might not be a hypocrite, but he isn't exactly 100 persent credible.