Originally posted by Scoobless
You talking about the Deadpool thing? why wouldn't having a bullet bounce around inside his skull, ripping his brain to pieces, knock him out?😬
A well written Logan wouldn't have let that happen. Wolverine haters make it sound so easy for someone with a gun to pull this off. But this Logan in Origins arc is poorly written.
I'm against this, after following origins for a little bit I dont see whats so out of character for wolverine.
Wasnt the whole reason he was mad at weapon x and others is because they used him as a weapon?
so ofcourse in origins wouldnt they show how/when they used him as a weapon?
maybe I'm not fully understanding this (I havent read it in a year or so) so could you explain it to me.
Originally posted by ScooblessBecause its physically impossible to get the bullet into his brainpan in the first place. People might not be aware of this but there is bone behind peoples eyes.
You talking about the Deadpool thing? why wouldn't having a bullet bounce around inside his skull, ripping his brain to pieces, knock him out?😬
The brain is totally encased in bone to protect it, there aren't any large gaps that don't have bone in the way of some kind. The largest hole in the skull is the where the spine is. The skull is like a vault, and in Wolverine's case its like an adamantium vault. There's NO way to get a bullet into his brain.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
[b]Note: This might need to be moved to the Comic Book Forum, but it mostly concerns the Versus Forum and debates, so I thought I'd post it here first.I was wondering if we, as a board, can vote Wolverine Origins out of continuity? Just decided to out right ignore everything that takes place with in? We have the PIS and CIS rules to ignore isolated feats, but we really should have something in place to ignore entire runs when they do nothing but tarnish the history of the characters involved... and what better run to start with than Wolverine Origins? Wolverine Origins is a train wreak, it does nothing but rape Wolverine's character and we should make an example of it by banishing it form continuity. Can we put it to a vote or get a Mod ruling?
No story before Wolverine Origins has managed to butcher a character on the same level Way has with Wolverine. Not a single worth while thing has come from this series. Seriously, it is an outrage. It's almost like the point of Origins is to disregard every heroic character trait Wolverine has, to completely destroy his character... and turn him into a mass murder, a torturer, and even a war criminal responsible for the execution of women and children. Where is the man of honor? Gone. There is virtually no ties between the character established in previous Wolverine stories and the man present in Origins.
Wolverine's past as established in Origins makes him a villain ,and one that his significantly worse then most of Marvel's big bads. Even if I'm supposed to buy that he has reformed, feels guilty about his past and wants to redeem himself for his actions (which has aways been Wolverine's stick), the stuff he has done is so heinous, that nothing short of death will suffice. If he had any sort of honor (and considering he supposedly lives by Bushido... ) he'd kill himself out right or turn himself into the authorities for his war crimes and be executed. Because of Origins, Wolverine loses all his credibility. How can someone lecture Magneto to his face when he has done things far, far, FAR worse?
Nothing in the story meshes at all. It is completely out of character for Wolverine, and disregards every character driven moment in Wolverine's past. I can't imagine why anyone would allow Wolverine to walk around free considering his past. If Hitler survived in Marvel and started wearing spandex and fighting crime because he felt bad about what he did, do you think Captain America would team up with him? No, he'd kick his ass all over the place. No one would tolerate it... why do they tolerate Wolverine?
It's not like he is even a puppet on strings either, nothing thus far suggest he was anything other than a willing participate... he even gives orders to people. Before Origins we all knew Logan had done some shady stuff int the past, but it was all under the pretences that he wasn't in control of his actions; that he was being brain washed and mind controlled, feed false information and manipulated. He certainly seems pretty in-control to me... and how does that play well with what's been established before?
Wolverine was always supposed to be a man of honor, one prone to fits of extreme violence, but a man of honor none the less. Where is that Wolverine? Where is the fallen Samurai?
The whole run is so out of character, for Wolverine. I think we as a forum need to address this with a forum ruling to banish Wolverine Origins from continuity, or a new rule to address when a character has been so miss handled across an entire arch not just a single incident. [/B]
i've read like, two issues of origins, so i'm really in no position to dictate... its up to the users of the forum to decide, imo...
if its canon, though, i dont see many people agreeing with you...
Originally posted by DestinyGuy678
I'm against this, after following origins for a little bit I dont see whats so out of character for wolverine.Wasnt the whole reason he was mad at weapon x and others is because they used him as a weapon?
so ofcourse in origins wouldnt they show how/when they used him as a weapon?
maybe I'm not fully understanding this (I havent read it in a year or so) so could you explain it to me.
See, the problem is, Wolverine was always portrayed as being USED as a weapon against his will. In Origins, however, he willingly tortures and murders people. Look what he did to Nuke - for all the vengeance he's after for what Weapon X did to him, he's sure hypocritical - he thinks the people who made him a weapon should die - then he surely should die for doing the same to Nuke. The essence of Logan was that he was a bezerker with the heart of a Samurai - the warrior who never conquered his rages but ALWAYS fought the savage killing machine inside of him. That was the difference between him and Creed. Now, however, it seems like Vic and Logan were truly cut from the same cloth. Actually, it would make Creed better as a person because at least he admits it and doesn't act like he never did such things.
Originally posted by The Real Wolvie
See, the problem is, Wolverine was always portrayed as being USED as a weapon against his will. In Origins, however, he willingly tortures and murders people. Look what he did to Nuke - for all the vengeance he's after for what Weapon X did to him, he's sure hypocritical - he thinks the people who made him a weapon should die - then he surely should die for doing the same to Nuke. The essence of Logan was that he was a bezerker with the heart of a Samurai - the warrior who never conquered his rages but ALWAYS fought the savage killing machine inside of him. That was the difference between him and Creed. Now, however, it seems like Vic and Logan were truly cut from the same cloth. Actually, it would make Creed better as a person because at least he admits it and doesn't act like he never did such things.
Originally posted by DestinyGuy678
I thought he didnt know what he was doing usually they filled his head with information and once he was done with his mission they brain wipd hi mand filled it with different information, and once he got his memories back he hated himself for everyting he's done
He was being manipulated, but he was in control. Contradictory to what's been shown of how Weapon-X uses him in the past where he isn't even conscious of what's doing - he's just being controlled. Like how he murdered that Senator and didn't even realize until he saw it on the news. Why would he hate himself if he wasn't in control? Seriously, if this is a brainwashing thing similar to what the Hand and Hydra did to him then Way needs to make that clear.
Originally posted by DestinyGuy678That's the pre-origins explination. Origins establishes him as doing these things willingly without being told the information. Origins takes a dump on all the ideals people had of wolverine. and all of his past. that whole thing with epsilon red is not in the toilet due to what's gone on in origins.
I thought he didnt know what he was doing usually they filled his head with information and once he was done with his mission they brain wipd hi mand filled it with different information, and once he got his memories back he hated himself for everyting he's done
Before he'd do things after being brainwashed and then gets mind wiped.
Now he does these things without the brainwashing.
Before: "Oh, bad men made me do bad things."
Now: "I AM the bad man that enjoys doing bad things."
Plus the way it tarnishes other people. like Wyldchild suddenly he was a nazi. MAde deadpool take minutes to heal minor damage that he healed in seconds from greater damage. and those are just two examples.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
It takes before Whedon's Astonishing.... or maye after... where the hell does Astonishing fit? Origins happens pretty much right after HoM. Issues 1-15 take please before Loebs run on Wolverine and 16-26 (minus flash back issues, take place afterwards.... maybe?
the last astonishing run fits in betweem x-men 204 and messiah complex...
and yes, its canon.
also, ive talked this over with badabing, and i'm honestly against disregarding entire runs... unless marvel says they arent 616, that is...
if we disregard one run, that opens us up to a very slippery slope, hell, there are arcs i hate that i'd want disregarded, but thats not fair to the fans who actually like those arcs, and the fact that until stated otherwise, its canon...
so its a vote against disregarding runs, from me...
Originally posted by Creshoskno, I remember in one issue (against omega red I think) where they show that after every mission they take him in and alter his memory, at least im pretty sure.
That's the pre-origins explination. Origins establishes him as doing these things willingly without being told the information. Origins takes a dump on all the ideals people had of wolverine. and all of his past. that whole thing with epsilon red is not in the toilet due to what's gone on in origins.Before he'd do things after being brainwashed and then gets mind wiped.
Now he does these things without the brainwashing.Before: "Oh, bad men made me do bad things."
Now: "I AM the bad man that enjoys doing bad things."Plus the way it tarnishes other people. like Wyldchild suddenly he was a nazi. MAde deadpool take minutes to heal minor damage that he healed in seconds from greater damage. and those are just two examples.
Originally posted by DestinyGuy678
no, I remember in one issue (against omega red I think) where they show that after every mission they take him in and alter his memory, at least im pretty sure.
Alter his memory or not, he was in control while committing the acts. Mind-wiping someone after the fact doesn't grant someone a pardon from the guilt of committing that act while fully in control of one's own actions.
Originally posted by DestinyGuy678That was in the 90s when they first introduced Omega Red. Origins doesn't have him doing that. even during the confrontation with Omega Red around WO#8 they used a few snippets of the actual mission which seemed to be lifted from the 90s story around X-Men v2#6 or so...
no, I remember in one issue (against omega red I think) where they show that after every mission they take him in and alter his memory, at least im pretty sure.
Originally posted by The Real Wolviewell wolverine wasnt to proud of himself either, I think thats the reason he hates himself so much.
Alter his memory or not, he was in control while committing the acts. Mind-wiping someone after the fact doesn't grant someone a pardon from the guilt of committing that act while fully in control of one's own actions.
You know, I'm tired of people using a false claim as a defense. No, if you do it for one person you don't HAVE to do it for everytone else. no one is holding a gun to your head. its NOT a slippery slope until it happens.
Each instance of disregarding a run CAN be handled on an individual basis. So quit equivocating with that damned "Oh its a slippery slope" BS. Its a weak cop out argument that's invalid due to the supposition of necessity being false.
Originally posted by Creshosk
You know, I'm tired of people using a false claim as a defense. No, if you do it for one person you don't HAVE to do it for everytone else. no one is holding a gun to your head. its NOT a slippery slope until it happens.Each instance of disregarding a run CAN be handled on an individual basis. So quit equivocating with that damned "Oh its a slippery slope" BS. Its a weak cop out argument that's invalid due to the supposition of necessity being false.
pr1983
Originally posted by Creshoskthey talk about it in issue 7 of origins
That was in the 90s when they first introduced Omega Red. Origins doesn't have him doing that. even during the confrontation with Omega Red around WO#8 they used a few snippets of the actual mission which seemed to be lifted from the 90s story around X-Men v2#6 or so...