Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Thanos cannot strip Heralds of their Power Cosmic though. Which was my point. None of the Heralds have the ability to strip each other of their powers.Avlon, you've got nothin. Your retorts have been reduced to blanket statements of ridicule and telling me to go to the respect thread for non-existent threads. I've been to the respect thread. I daresay, I've read it far more than you. Where do you think I get a lot of my GL scans or information from? You can't prove Lanterns could replicate Dr. Doom's tech without having prior access. I gave you my reasoning and showed you a scan where a GL needed to analyze a machine before being able to replicate it.
The whole "they can drain each other equally" argument is simple reductionist nonsense. Your motive is quite transparently clear. You wish to simplify this battle, rather than discuss context and nuance. You want to reduce it to "two competent energy wielders who can drain vs. one competent energy wielder who can drain." No thanks.
Fact of the matter is, not a single Lantern proponent has produced a single scan of a current Lantern absorbing or usurping a competent energy wielder of their energies. There isn't a single example. As has been already posted and referenced, Surfer has superior energy absorption feats from competent energy wielders. You want to use circumstantial evidence of people draining an exiled depowered Surfer or used specialized tech on a current Surfer. But you turn right around and demand that I recognize that Manhunters have specialized technology as well. That's hypocrisy. You even ignore how a post-exiled current Surfer has either beaten a superior energy absorber (by his own clear on-panel admission) or downright overloaded all other energy absorbers.
Since you're so keen on insinuating some false weakness in my arguments when I supposedly dodge or not mention points. I have no problem pointing out how you ignored ENTIRE posts of mine. You completely ignored, and thus under your reasoning must have conceded all of responses to Raoul about pre-Crisis continuity. You must also then have conceded the first portion of my last two-part rebuttal of your arguments. Maybe I can mention how you've dropped the whole classic Dr. Strange nullification sphere rebuttal I posited. Pretty funny how you can't even bring yourself to mention Black Hand at all.
Being drained by some schnook's power rod, whose name is Black Hand, and being unable to resist it at all is a hella lot worse than being drained by Black Panther with a ripoff of Dr. Doom's Power Cosmic Siphon Harness. Hell that technology completely stole Aron the Watcher's power and Hyperstorm's power. It was beastly. After your last few responses, I'd assumed you were sufficiently pressed by my reasonable requests to produce actual on-panel proof of your assertions. But you've failed to do so. I could insinuate that you're just being stubborn and can't stand admitting that you have nothing. At best, you were just plain misinformed and worked off of third-hand accounts.
1. "Show me a scan where a Lantern was able to create plasma construct imitations of technology or create/transmute such technology without guidance or prior access to or prior analysis of such technology."
2. "Show me scans where a Lantern usurped or at least absorbed a competent energy wielder's energies."
3. "Show me scan where a Lantern either beat or overloaded a competent energy wielder's efforts or technology."
I've already posted contradictory evidence against 1 and 3. I've already provided scans and references for Surfer for 2. You've done nothing. Until then, the last two responses of yours can be characterized as pure dodging and insubstantial diatribe nonsense. And I'll mention again how nobody's posted a single current Lantern feat that could be considered equal or superior to Surfer's best. I still invite anybody to do so. Until then, anybody can feel free to post their conclusions. But if you want to engage in actual debate, put up or shut up. Silver Surfer wins. Neither Hal, nor Sinestro have done anything to be on his level.
gimme the team almost every time. ss has never been shown to be definitively more powerful than quasar in direct combat. to assume ss can win this would imply quasar would also be able to beat both. and there is no way i'd agree that was the case.
true current ss has apparently been amped some since that battle, but not enough imo to clearly defeat 2 beings, each of whom are at least equal to wendel.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Thanos cannot strip Heralds of their Power Cosmic though. Which was my point. None of the Heralds have the ability to strip each other of their powers.Avlon, you've got nothin. Your retorts have been reduced to blanket statements of ridicule and telling me to go to the respect thread for non-existent threads. I've been to the respect thread. I daresay, I've read it far more than you. Where do you think I get a lot of my GL scans or information from? You can't prove Lanterns could replicate Dr. Doom's tech without having prior access. I gave you my reasoning and showed you a scan where a GL needed to analyze a machine before being able to replicate it.
The whole "they can drain each other equally" argument is simple reductionist nonsense. Your motive is quite transparently clear. You wish to simplify this battle, rather than discuss context and nuance. You want to reduce it to "two competent energy wielders who can drain vs. one competent energy wielder who can drain." No thanks.
Fact of the matter is, not a single Lantern proponent has produced a single scan of a current Lantern absorbing or usurping a competent energy wielder of their energies. There isn't a single example. As has been already posted and referenced, Surfer has superior energy absorption feats from competent energy wielders. You want to use circumstantial evidence of people draining an exiled depowered Surfer or used specialized tech on a current Surfer. But you turn right around and demand that I recognize that Manhunters have specialized technology as well. That's hypocrisy. You even ignore how a post-exiled current Surfer has either beaten a superior energy absorber (by his own clear on-panel admission) or downright overloaded all other energy absorbers.
Since you're so keen on insinuating some false weakness in my arguments when I supposedly dodge or not mention points. I have no problem pointing out how you ignored ENTIRE posts of mine. You completely ignored, and thus under your reasoning must have conceded all of responses to Raoul about pre-Crisis continuity. You must also then have conceded the first portion of my last two-part rebuttal of your arguments. Maybe I can mention how you've dropped the whole classic Dr. Strange nullification sphere rebuttal I posited. Pretty funny how you can't even bring yourself to mention Black Hand at all.
Being drained by some schnook's power rod, whose name is Black Hand, and being unable to resist it at all is a hella lot worse than being drained by Black Panther with a ripoff of Dr. Doom's Power Cosmic Siphon Harness. Hell that technology completely stole Aron the Watcher's power and Hyperstorm's power. It was beastly. After your last few responses, I'd assumed you were sufficiently pressed by my reasonable requests to produce actual on-panel proof of your assertions. But you've failed to do so. I could insinuate that you're just being stubborn and can't stand admitting that you have nothing. At best, you were just plain misinformed and worked off of third-hand accounts.
1. "Show me a scan where a Lantern was able to create plasma construct imitations of technology or create/transmute such technology without guidance or prior access to or prior analysis of such technology."
2. "Show me scans where a Lantern usurped or at least absorbed a competent energy wielder's energies."
3. "Show me scan where a Lantern either beat or overloaded a competent energy wielder's efforts or technology."
I've already posted contradictory evidence against 1 and 3. I've already provided scans and references for Surfer for 2. You've done nothing. Until then, the last two responses of yours can be characterized as pure dodging and insubstantial diatribe nonsense. And I'll mention again how nobody's posted a single current Lantern feat that could be considered equal or superior to Surfer's best. I still invite anybody to do so. Until then, anybody can feel free to post their conclusions. But if you want to engage in actual debate, put up or shut up. Silver Surfer wins. Neither Hal, nor Sinestro have done anything to be on his level.
I understand that you want to be thorough, but nobody is going to read all that.
As for your points. You've got nothin' but once sided fallacies and opinions. Oh, "it's better that Doom drains than Black hand"... are you serious? LOL!!!! Drainage is drainage.
Oh..now SS got an undefined power boost so he's immune to drainage! Which as already been proven false. The iron man example is just one since it's the same power set.
I put it into simple terms earlier and showed scans of Hal doing some pretty amazing things himself. You showed a GL having an issue with a black hole and I addressed it by showing a rookie CLOSING a black hole and a few of the ok GL's surviving a black hole.
You showed SS in pieces, I showed Hal in pieces.
You showed SS starting a process of planetary genetic manipulation (which he had no control over) and I showed you Hal stopping time for a system.
You showed SS running into a beam smaller than his body as a battle speed feat and I showed you Hal keeping up with a speeding flash and having conversation.
Someone brought up the GL/SS crossover and I addressed it. Hint. It wasn't great for SS. OK, but not great.
Now we have 2 characters who are DEBATABLY in SS class (as they aren't GL fodder) together vs SS.
SS for the loss. It's easy math to get and understand. You could make a nice case vs any one of them on their own, but together? They win.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Nicely done and before I heard your well thought out points I would have given the team the solid majority but have changed my tune. Well done.
Thanos cannot strip Heralds of their Power Cosmic though. Which was my point. None of the Heralds have the ability to strip each other of their powers.Avlon, you've got nothin. Your retorts have been reduced to blanket statements of ridicule and telling me to go to the respect thread for non-existent threads. I've been to the respect thread. I daresay, I've read it far more than you. Where do you think I get a lot of my GL scans or information from? You can't prove Lanterns could replicate Dr. Doom's tech without having prior access. I gave you my reasoning and showed you a scan where a GL needed to analyze a machine before being able to replicate it.
The whole "they can drain each other equally" argument is simple reductionist nonsense. Your motive is quite transparently clear. You wish to simplify this battle, rather than discuss context and nuance. You want to reduce it to "two competent energy wielders who can drain vs. one competent energy wielder who can drain." No thanks.
Fact of the matter is, not a single Lantern proponent has produced a single scan of a current Lantern absorbing or usurping a competent energy wielder of their energies. There isn't a single example. As has been already posted and referenced, Surfer has superior energy absorption feats from competent energy wielders. You want to use circumstantial evidence of people draining an exiled depowered Surfer or used specialized tech on a current Surfer. But you turn right around and demand that I recognize that Manhunters have specialized technology as well. That's hypocrisy. You even ignore how a post-exiled current Surfer has either beaten a superior energy absorber (by his own clear on-panel admission) or downright overloaded all other energy absorbers.
Since you're so keen on insinuating some false weakness in my arguments when I supposedly dodge or not mention points. I have no problem pointing out how you ignored ENTIRE posts of mine. You completely ignored, and thus under your reasoning must have conceded all of responses to Raoul about pre-Crisis continuity. You must also then have conceded the first portion of my last two-part rebuttal of your arguments. Maybe I can mention how you've dropped the whole classic Dr. Strange nullification sphere rebuttal I posited. Pretty funny how you can't even bring yourself to mention Black Hand at all.
Being drained by some schnook's power rod, whose name is Black Hand, and being unable to resist it at all is a hella lot worse than being drained by Black Panther with a ripoff of Dr. Doom's Power Cosmic Siphon Harness. Hell that technology completely stole Aron the Watcher's power and Hyperstorm's power. It was beastly. After your last few responses, I'd assumed you were sufficiently pressed by my reasonable requests to produce actual on-panel proof of your assertions. But you've failed to do so. I could insinuate that you're just being stubborn and can't stand admitting that you have nothing. At best, you were just plain misinformed and worked off of third-hand accounts.
1. "Show me a scan where a Lantern was able to create plasma construct imitations of technology or create/transmute such technology without guidance or prior access to or prior analysis of such technology."
2. "Show me scans where a Lantern usurped or at least absorbed a competent energy wielder's energies."
3. "Show me scan where a Lantern either beat or overloaded a competent energy wielder's efforts or technology."
I've already posted contradictory evidence against 1 and 3. I've already provided scans and references for Surfer for 2. You've done nothing. Until then, the last two responses of yours can be characterized as pure dodging and insubstantial diatribe nonsense. And I'll mention again how nobody's posted a single current Lantern feat that could be considered equal or superior to Surfer's best. I still invite anybody to do so. Until then, anybody can feel free to post their conclusions. But if you want to engage in actual debate, put up or shut up. Silver Surfer wins. Neither Hal, nor Sinestro have done anything to be on his level.
Surfer for the hard fought win.
Originally posted by Avlon
I understand that you want to be thorough, but nobody is going to read all that.As for your points. You've got nothin' but once sided fallacies and opinions. Oh, "it's better that Doom drains than Black hand"... are you serious? LOL!!!! Drainage is drainage.
Oh..now SS got an undefined power boost so he's immune to drainage! Which as already been proven false. The iron man example is just one since it's the same power set.
I put it into simple terms earlier and showed scans of Hal doing some pretty amazing things himself. You showed a GL having an issue with a black hole and I addressed it by showing a rookie CLOSING a black hole and a few of the ok GL's surviving a black hole.
You showed SS in pieces, I showed Hal in pieces.
You showed SS starting a process of planetary genetic manipulation (which he had no control over) and I showed you Hal stopping time for a system.
You showed SS running into a beam smaller than his body as a battle speed feat and I showed you Hal keeping up with a speeding flash and having conversation.
Someone brought up the GL/SS crossover and I addressed it. Hint. It wasn't great for SS. OK, but not great.
Now we have 2 characters who are DEBATABLY in SS class (as they aren't GL fodder) together vs SS.
SS for the loss. It's easy math to get and understand. You could make a nice case vs any one of them on their own, but together? They win.
Saying DRAINAGE is DRAINAGE is not true at all. It is equivalent to saying that you are drained dry by a high level enrgy absorber the same would happen to you against a much lower enrgy absorber. IT does not make sense at all. Silver surfer was able to drain the hulks enrgy yet in WWH a member of the Xmen was unable to. Heck evn in some of the scans shown here surfer been able to resist his enrgy absorbed by some and but not resist by others.
Also you cant say that just because its the same powerset he is still prone to being drained by the likes of Iron man. This is just ridiculous.
Obviously an increase in power levels would make it more difficult to drain him evn if he does have the same powerset. I will use superman as an example. A competent enrgy absorber will be able to absorb a regular supermans enrgy. Howver let superman go for a sundip and the situation will change entirely. Although he stil has the same powerset, his enrgy levels would have skyrocketed making it far far harder to drain him. Or do u think that it would be just as easy to drain him because he has the same powerset? Of course not.
The really impressive scans you showed which IMO would put him on SS level were pre crisis . And while i certainly am not going to debate their validity to simply avoid controversy it would have undoubtedly bin better to post more current feats.
Ok So does anyone remember when surfer got his ass handed to him by that no name energy drainer in the star masters book? Does anyone also realize that not only do the power batteries power the rings, but the rings, absorb power. It's a two way street. Shown by Kyle using his ring to absorb the TOTALITY of a cosmic cube. Just for thought. I don't think Surfer will be able to drain either lantern. Not in a Forum battle where he has no prep. He got drained by a no name 2nd rate villian. While the Lanterns get drained by beings prepped to drain them. BIG Difference.
Further the hal did not stop time for an entire system or evn IT was clearly stated by hal that he froze all the beings within a thousand mile radius of the shattered planet. The narration does not support the claim that he froze the entire system because it does NOT use any words indicating that it was EVRY, ALL, or the ENTIRE amount of beings in the system that were frozen. It never mentions anything that contradicts hals statement or anything that proves that hal extended the his beam beyond what he originally intended.
Originally posted by fangirl101
Ok So does anyone remember when surfer got his ass handed to him by that no name energy drainer in the star masters book? Does anyone also realize that not only do the power batteries power the rings, but the rings, absorb power. It's a two way street. Shown by Kyle using his ring to absorb the TOTALITY of a cosmic cube. Just for thought. I don't think Surfer will be able to drain either lantern. Not in a Forum battle where he has no prep. He got drained by a no name 2nd rate villian. While the Lanterns get drained by beings prepped to drain them. BIG Difference.
There are some huge inaccuracies and ambiguitites in this post. But aside that i dont think anyone advocated power draining as a way SS would win. It also is NOT a way the Gls can win either.
Originally posted by fangirl101You do realize surfer has been upgraded rather recently which does change things imo.
Ok So does anyone remember when surfer got his ass handed to him by that no name energy drainer in the star masters book? Does anyone also realize that not only do the power batteries power the rings, but the rings, absorb power. It's a two way street. Shown by Kyle using his ring to absorb the TOTALITY of a cosmic cube. Just for thought. I don't think Surfer will be able to drain either lantern. Not in a Forum battle where he has no prep. He got drained by a no name 2nd rate villian. While the Lanterns get drained by beings prepped to drain them. BIG Difference.
Originally posted by ultimatethor
There are some huge inaccuracies and ambiguitites in this post. But aside that i dont think anyone advocated power draining as a way SS would win. It also is NOT a way the Gls can win either.
Originally posted by quanchi112
You do realize surfer has been upgraded rather recently which does change things imo.
And his upgrade did what? Superman has been getting stronger for awhile now too. But guess what? Hal still is the one referred to as it's always you hal, in the JLA books who can over come what the others cannot.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
It says every being in "the system" is frozen. Narration pretty much always takes precedence over thoughts and statements by characters because it is in the 3rd person omniscient.
Very false. There is no "ëvery"in the narration. And a thousand mile radius makes it only planet wide and nothing more.