Wolverine vs. Daredevil - H2H

Originally posted by jrodslam
I wouldnt say that. One example that supports that is their confrontations with Spidey. Spidey always has a hard time hitting DD. DD's bullet timing feats are just about unmatched.

Spidy's not a very good example. Daredevil avoids Spider-man because he trys to. Not only is it important that Matt avoids Spider-man, it's vital. Wolverine? He doesn't care if you hit him... in fact... he might prefer it. Gives him a reason to go to claw city after all. Besides Spider-man has said Wolverine is faster than he is, has he said the same about Matt?

Matt does have some great bullet dodges to be sure, but certainly not unmatched. Danny and Shang-Chi both have legitimate bullet time feats (ie sliding between multiple shots, and reacting AFTER the bullets left the chamber). The majority of the time Wolverine isn't concerned with avoiding gun fire so he doesn't have as many bullet dodges BUT the speed feats he does have are more impressive. He once moved after the trigger was pulled on a handgun and managed to stab his claws into the barrel BEFORE THE BULLET EVEN LEFT THE BARREL. That's hell'a fast.

Wolverine has a pretty significant combat speed advantage IMO.

Originally posted by jinzin
I think we're interpreting speed differently here.

When it comes to fighting I think characters/people have two different types of speed.

The first is sheer speed: A person's ability to put their fist or their foot from point A to point B in a certain amount of time during a fight. To this I give Wolverine a solid advantage even if it isn't much of one.

The second is reaction speed: A person's ability to perceive/interpret a threat and how long it take for them to react to the synapses firing in their brain alerting them to respond to it. Initially I want to give DD a slight advantage here due to radar sense, but then you have to consider that while DD may work off of radar sense, Wolverine's natural instincts and muscle memory are so ingrained with fighting that he doesn't have to even think TO fight, his body just naturally responds to whatever it needs to and on top of that his heightened senses help him as well.

I certainly don't think there's enough of an advantage there if DD has one at all that would dictate a win for him over Wolverine's several advantages.

True. Those would be the 2 2 types of speed in a fight. However, id say that speed 2 > speed 1. No matter how fast someone may be, the superior reaction speed will always allow for the other to defend it. In most h2h fights, DD mainly relys on the hearing(heart, muscles) moreso than the radar. Yes he may think " Arm muscles tensing. Hes about to throw a punch..", but its like clockwork.

I still think Matts advantage helps him more than Wolverines. Wolvie cant bank on his advantages to take a clear majority, whereas i think Matt could. Especially considering the other things dont play as much of a factor.(save for strength if grappling is involved)

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Spidy's not a very good example. Daredevil avoids Spider-man because he trys to. Not only is it important that Matt avoids Spider-man, it's vital. Wolverine? He doesn't care if you hit him... in fact... he might prefer it. Gives him a reason to go to claw city after all. Besides Spider-man has said Wolverine is faster than he is, has he said the same about Matt?

Matt does have some great bullet dodges to be sure, but certainly not unmatched. Danny and Shang-Chi both have legitimate bullet time feats (ie sliding between multiple shots, and reacting AFTER the bullets left the chamber). The majority of the time Wolverine isn't concerned with avoiding gun fire so he doesn't have as many bullet dodges BUT the speed feats he does have are more impressive. He once moved after the trigger was pulled on a handgun and managed to stab his claws into the barrel BEFORE THE BULLET EVEN LEFT THE BARREL. That's hell'a fast.

Wolverine has a pretty significant combat speed advantage IMO.

Yes, DD avoids Spidey because he has to, but there is an instance where DD actually allowed spidey to hit him just so he could catch his breath. DD was still able to roll with the punch though. Spidey said Wolvie was faster than he was? Even if it was said i dont believe it. Do you really? And no, Spidey didnt EXACTLY say the same for Matt, but he did say "No matter how fast i am, he still seems to roll with the blow...". Wolvie even mentioned DD being fast. Matts never commented on Wolvies speed.

Im sure DD's bullet timing feats arent completely unmatched, but still highly impressive none the less. The Wolvie feat you mentioned is impressive. There was once a time where a sniper was aimed to shoot Spidey. DD was laying on the floor and a sniper shot was fired. DD got up off the floor and deflected the butllet before it hit spidey. Hes also got his point blank feats as well.

If Wolvie has a significant combat speed advantage, im not seeing it.

Originally posted by jrodslam
True. Those would be the 2 2 types of speed in a fight. However, id say that speed 2 > speed 1. No matter how fast someone may be, the superior reaction speed will always allow for the other to defend it. In most h2h fights, DD mainly relys on the hearing(heart, muscles) moreso than the radar. Yes he may think " Arm muscles tensing. Hes about to throw a punch..", but its like clockwork.

I still think Matts advantage helps him more than Wolverines. Wolvie cant bank on his advantages to take a clear majority, whereas i think Matt could. Especially considering the other things dont play as much of a factor.(save for strength if grappling is involved)

You know I honestly am having a hard time pinning down many fights that DD's been in with well versed fighters near Wolverine's level where he's been able to pull off the same roll with the punches maneuvars that he does with characters like Spiderman and the like. I mean, Spiderman's lack of fighting skill is one of the general reasons he has problems with good streeters in the first place. The guy typically swings for the fences.
Secondly Wolverine's enhanced senses and ability to move as fast as he thinks have avoided Spiderman's blows without looking at them.

And if it's a point to his hearing, Wolverine can hear heatbeats as well.

I'm not sure if Matts radar is even an advantage as much as it would be an equalizer, and even then it would only be for incoming attacks, not landing them.

As far as I can tell Wolverine still holds advantages while Matt has an equalizer for their difference in sheer speed.

Originally posted by jinzin
You know I honestly am having a hard time pinning down many fights that DD's been in with well versed fighters near Wolverine's level where he's been able to pull off the same roll with the punches maneuvars that he does with characters like Spiderman and the like. I mean, Spiderman's lack of fighting skill is one of the general reasons he has problems with good streeters in the first place. The guy typically swings for the fences.

Very Interesting point.

Originally posted by jrodslam
Yes, DD avoids Spidey because he has to, but there is an instance where DD actually allowed spidey to hit him just so he could catch his breath. DD was still able to roll with the punch though. Spidey said Wolvie was faster than he was? Even if it was said i dont believe it. Do you really? And no, Spidey didnt EXACTLY say the same for Matt, but he did say "No matter how fast i am, he still seems to roll with the blow...". Wolvie even mentioned DD being fast. Matts never commented on Wolvies speed.

Im sure DD's bullet timing feats arent completely unmatched, but still highly impressive none the less. The Wolvie feat you mentioned is impressive. There was once a time where a sniper was aimed to shoot Spidey. DD was laying on the floor and a sniper shot was fired. DD got up off the floor and deflected the butllet before it hit spidey. Hes also got his point blank feats as well.

If Wolvie has a significant combat speed advantage, im not seeing it.

And yeh, the first real fight Spidey and Wolverine had, Spiderman at first doubted himself because he thought for a second that Wolverine was faster. He then regained his composure, or his resolve and goes on to say Nobody's faster than me! Nobody! but the fact that Wolverine gave him doubts is impressive no?

Since we're bringing speed feats up I just wanted to add one in for fun too, once Wolverine was sitting in a chair with his back to some attackers smoking a cigar. They shot a gun, Wolverine was out of his chair and on his way to blitzing his attackers before the bullet could go through the chair and before his cigar had begun to fall.

I think the impression of Wolverine's fighting speed advantage comes from feats where his arms are making a virtual hurricane of movement in front of him.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin

And by the same token you have no proof that he did. You need to consider that Wolverine's lack of food and sleep, and a hindered healing factor was brought up in the confines of the story. Now, why would Way even bother with that if - like you are suggesting - he rectified immediately afterwards (off panel no less) while Wolverine bounced around the globe? It was a revelation that didn't have any impact on what had came before it and unless it was meant to explain Wolverine's dialed down healing factor in the coming issues it served no point. Remember Wolverine Origins was originally supposed to take place within the normal Wolverine title as a continuation of the Origins and Endings arch.

Incredible.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin

No one is suggesting Way is infallible... or even that his story is incredibly well planed or thought out(or thought out at all for that matter), but I think his intentions were pretty clear. And seriously, what's more ridiculous: giving Wolverine the benefit of the doubt and assuming he hadn't eaten or rested as the story implies despite the lack of logic... or saying Wolverine has an incomplete skull and is missing several bones? Because I seem to recall you where pretty adamant on the second one, despite the holes in logic/common sense/anatomy... certainly that oppinion requires a MUCH bigger leap of faith than the idea we are discussing now.

Even if it was a leap of faith his points for this argument are perfectly reasonable.

Hell at least with that other argument there are loads of examples of him getting shot in the brain. The point that its a comicbook as well makes sense as well. I disagree with his point though.

Jinzin, your excuses for your clear double standards are painful. Utterly painful. You could use them against Sabretooth? An opponent who is physically superior? Your excuses don't rehabilitate crap. Doesn't turn Daredevil's feat into PIS either. If it did, you'd have to do the same for Cap's tendon crush, Deadpool's twin sword stab, Punisher's ball crusher, Ord's gut slash, Silver Samurai's neck slash in New Avengers, Wild Child's pwnage in Black Panther, Gorgon's heart stab, Spiderwoman's single venom blast, Shingen's spine strike, Maximus Lobo's claw rake, Daken's first chest stab, Elektra's sai stab to the back. Reading DD's feat in isolation and taking Wolverine's majority showings is one thing. But discarding all of these clear, unequivocal precise damage instances is just garbage reasoning. And if you won't discard them all, then there's no damn reason to discard DD's. And I can guaran-damn-tee there are far more instances of precise damage briefly putting Wolvie down or incapacitating him. These were just off the top of my head. Nuff said.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Just a quick stop in (I'm too busy to be an active poster this week).

And by the same token you have no proof that he did. You need to consider that Wolverine's lack of food and sleep, and a hindered healing factor was brought up in the confines of the story. Now, why would Way even bother with that if - like you are suggesting - he rectified immediately afterwards (off panel no less) while Wolverine bounced around the globe? It was a revelation that didn't have any impact on what had came before it and unless it was meant to explain Wolverine's dialed down healing factor in the coming issues it served no point. Remember Wolverine Origins was originally supposed to take place within the normal Wolverine title as a continuation of the Origins and Endings arch.

The idea ONLY makes sense if you think his healing factor was going bonkers before or after or he had reasonable motivation to do so, i.e. stranded in deckhold. The former is unsupported assumption, the latter obviously tends towards him eating and sleeping. Either way:

There is no proof Wolverine did not eat a single bite or did not sleep a single wink before Japan or after Canada.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
No one is suggesting Way is infallible... or even that his story is incredibly well planed or thought out(or thought out at all for that matter), but I think his intentions were pretty clear. And seriously, what's more ridiculous: giving Wolverine the benefit of the doubt and assuming he hadn't eaten or rested as the story implies despite the lack of logic... or saying Wolverine has an incomplete skull and is missing several bones? Because I seem to recall you where pretty adamant on the second one, despite the holes in logic/common sense/anatomy... certainly that oppinion requires a MUCH bigger leap of faith than the idea we are discussing now.

Wolverine's brains can be penetrated by projectiles because it clearly happens on-panel. That is positive evidence that his skull can be penetrated, even though it's counter-intuitive. If his skull can be penetrated then there must be cavities that allow access because of his adamantium lining. That's simple deduction. In this idiotic myth, there is no positive evidence. If Wolverine ever said that he had not eaten a single thing or hadn't slept a single wink during his weeks of hiding before Japan or his travels after Canada, then Jinzin would have an argument, even though it's counterintuitive. But Wolverine never says so. There is no positive evidence. There's only speculative nonsense. And if I give Jinzin the benefit of the doubt, I risk making Wolverine into a complete idiot with no common sense. Think I'll give Wolverine the benefit of the doubt and well, you can figure out the rest.

It's remotely possible. Because I don't have a scan of Wolverine actually eating or sleeping other than passing out. But it's not plausible. It's about as plausible as Wolverine continuing to eat his arms and legs throughout the entirety of 'Origins & Endings' off-panel. And if that sounds patently ridiculous to you, then you know how I feel about this starved, sleep-deprived myth.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Matt does have some great bullet dodges to be sure, but certainly not unmatched. Danny and Shang-Chi both have legitimate bullet time feats (ie sliding between multiple shots, and reacting AFTER the bullets left the chamber). The majority of the time Wolverine isn't concerned with avoiding gun fire so he doesn't have as many bullet dodges BUT the speed feats he does have are more impressive. He once moved after the trigger was pulled on a handgun and managed to stab his claws into the barrel BEFORE THE BULLET EVEN LEFT THE BARREL. That's hell'a fast.

Wolverine has a pretty significant combat speed advantage IMO.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
That assumption goes against common sense. There was a reason Wolverine had to eat his arm on the boat, he stranded himself in the deckhold to avoid problems with the crew. Ship wouldn't leave dock for 12 hours. Freighters of that size typically travel 20-30 knots. Taking a speed of 30 knots between Japan and Alaska, the voyage takes about 5 days. We have no idea when Wolverine began eating his arm. He feinted right after sneaking into the cargo hold. When he wakes, he eats his arm and feints again. So it makes absolute sense he's starved after days of being stuck in the cargo hold. It makes absolutely no sense he would not eat or sleep in the three weeks of hiding prior to Japan or after Canada when he had perfect access and oppurtunity to do so. Besides, he friggin slept on the god damn boat. It wasn't restful because his body was most likely extremely taxed, but the idea of him not sleeping before or after is absolutely unsupported when he had perfect oppurtunities to do so.

Exactly from my understanding Wolverine can be a bit crazy and I he had got his memories back so it seemed he went a bit nuts......BUT why would he continue to starve himself after hes realised that hes been so weak that he collapsed and had to eat his arm?

Ok he was weakened when he fought SS, but he realised afterwards that he needed to eat and sleep. So he decideds to change his clothes but doesn't bother to eat.....WTF. 🤨

Originally posted by jinzin
Hmm I'll have to think about this.

You know I honestly am having a hard time pinning down many fights that DD's been in with well versed fighters near Wolverine's level where he's been able to pull off the same roll with the punches maneuvars that he does with characters like Spiderman and the like.

Honestly, DD has rolled with punches from almost all top fighters hes fought. IF never landed a full hit on him, but hes done it with Cap, Tasky, Echo(i believe), Ghostmaker. They may not all be on Wolvies lvl of MA, but hes done it to opponents other than powerhouses who he really does it often with.

Originally posted by jinzin
I mean, Spiderman's lack of fighting skill is one of the general reasons he has problems with good streeters in the first place. The guy typically swings for the fences.

True.

Originally posted by jinzin
I'm not sure if Matts radar is even an advantage as much as it would be an equalizer, and even then it would only be for incoming attacks, not landing them.

As far as I can tell Wolverine still holds advantages while Matt has an equalizer for their difference in sheer speed.

Against Wolvie, the radar wouldnt be an equalizer imo. It may hardly be relied on at all. True it doesnt really help much for attacks as well as defending against them, but it helps along with his senses.

The advantages you mention Wolvie holds wouldnt be noticeable in a fight with DD. Strength, speed(if that).

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Jinzin, your excuses for your clear double standards are painful. Utterly painful. You could use them against Sabretooth? An opponent who is physically superior?

Seriously... WHAT.... IS... YOUR..... PROBLEM?

You treat comics like you treat my arguments; ignoring the content that doesn't suit well your agenda.

Do you not understand what effect that not one, not two, not three, BUT FOUR UPGRADES to Sabretooth's physicality and his healing factor would have on my assessment of Sabretooth vs. whomever in a forum fight? Where the most current version is the DEFAULT version?

Do you not understand how equating Sabretooth from before those upgrades to Sabretooth AFTER them is logically flawed?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Your excuses don't rehabilitate crap. Doesn't turn Daredevil's feat into PIS either. If it did, you'd have to do the same for Cap's tendon crush,

Originally posted by OneDumbG0 Deadpool's twin sword stab,

Wolverine didn't have a working healing factor IN THAT FIGHT.... It was referenced FOUR ****ING TIMES.....
But since words alone brush off of you like water from a duck's back perhaps I'll simply show you:

http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/6191/dphf1mg2.jpg
http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/6605/dphf2rt9.jpg
http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/4516/dphf3nf4.jpg

Yeah..... INVALIDATED.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Punisher's ball crusher,

ENNIS..... You're going right back to the same writer who started this whole discussion as proof to support your argument... Can you not grasp for one second what's wrong with that? Of course not.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Ord's gut slash,

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Silver Samurai's neck slash in New Avengers,

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Wild Child's pwnage in Black Panther,

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Gorgon's heart stab,

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Spiderwoman's single venom blast,

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Shingen's spine strike,

But you just keep ignoring that fact for the notion that the mere sign of an affect on a depowered Logan means DD's anti-feat has validity.Of course you also ignore that the Shingen fight discredits Daredevil's throat strike directly about 4 times alone.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Maximus Lobo's claw rake,

Never happened.... The first time Wolverine got downed by Lobo, he was stated as looking like he went through a grinder and later stated to have lost what looked like half of his blood. That doesn't imply a single claw rake.
The second time they fought, Wolverine was dropped off panel again the last thing we see are his claws being forced into his own face area, dunno what the hell happened with him.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Daken's first chest stab,

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Elektra's sai stab to the back

http://img228.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fukedzj1.jpg
http://img359.imageshack.us/img359/6019/fuked2rp2.jpg

And EVEN THEN discredits what you're arguing...

http://img359.imageshack.us/img359/5285/eots5md2.jpg
Her pressure point only worked as long as she kept applying pressure.. END OF STORY... when she let go... "Pressures off the nerves. Arms are doing what they're told again"..... it completely contradicts DD doing anything from a single strike.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Reading DD's feat in isolation and taking Wolverine's majority
showings is one thing. But discarding all of these clear, unequivocal
precise damage instances is just garbage reasoning. And if you won't
discard them all, then there's no damn reason to discard DD's. And I
can guaran-damn-tee there are far more instances of precise damage
briefly putting Wolvie down or incapacitating him. These were just off
the top of my head.

Perhaps the fact that they came from the top of your head is the reason why they're such poor examples.... Fact of the matter is you can't take ONE instance where Wolverine's taken down by a single strike to the throat and equate that to all the instances that far worse damage has put him down, or all the instances he's registered pain at some level. Silver Samurai and Ord being prime examples; offer no credability to DD being successful in a single strike, nor do they support this notion of precise damage being more potent to Logan than far more devistating things.
Wolverine's healng factor doesn't work slower in specific areas of the body than others, so why argue that it does? There's no such evidence to prove this and the fact that Wolverine bounces back to fight bricks like Hulk after getting bodyslammed and having all his organs liquified tends to lead one to believe that his healing factor doesn't give one damn about where you attack him...

What this all comes down to is that you've yet to provide any CREDIBLE examples to prove what you're attempting to argue here. Every example you've given so far has been littered with circumstance from the plot, not precise, or too ambiguous to dictate what happened (OFF PANEL). At the end of the day even if we gave credit to the examples that are not littered with plot devices such as your Ord, Silver Samurai, or Punisher feat..... that for every anti-feat you have of Logan, I can find multitudes that contradict it. On KMC battles we have these character's powers working at the peak of their effeciency, so using the lowest of showings (regardless of context) doesn't do anything to prove the cons of a character.
Your ridiculous insistance that Lobo put Logan down with a single claw rake just goes to show how little credit you're giving him here as if that feat had actually taken place outside of your imagination it WOULD very much be discarded compared to the literally dozens of examples I could find to the contrary.

And as for Origins...

Wolverine hadn't ate up to the point he fought Samurai for some time. BEFORE he passes out Wolverine references this. "Can't remember the last time I; Hungry...Should a..." Wolverine being unable to pin down the last time he ate doesn't lend credit to your babble that he did.

Wolverine stating that he held out as long as he can, gives credit to the argument that he was withholding himself from eating. Your insistance that he spent days on the ship would only compound on this argument....

And Wolverine even up to the point of meeting Black Widow said that he needed some sleep.... His means of travel hadn't radically altered, his situation hadn't become better up to the point of meeting Cap either.

So there IS evidence that Wolverine hadn't eaten up to meeting Silver Samurai past a point he could remember.
There IS evidence that Wolverine's hunger while on board the ship to Canada had become greater than the sum total of what it was while he trecked in a desert for 3 days even having taken decent damage.
And for that matter there IS evidence that Wolverine will forego food and sleep to see his way through to the end of a mission.
There ARE multiple statements in the headliners for the story that Wolverine was on a mission.
There ARE multiple references to Wolverine being on the run from every law enforcement agency in the world.
There ARE multiple references to the urgency of Wolverine's crusade:
Wolverine: "Told them to get me there in a hurry"

Bucky: "We don't have much time."

There IS a point in the story that Wolverine is offered a place to sleep and refuses to do so, even though he says he needs the sleep and looks as such by Black Widows account, giving credit to the notion he wasn't sleeping while traveling.
There ARE panels of Wolverine's hideout in Brooklyn displaying newspapers, radios and TV's on the floor with him in the middle, but no food or wrappers of any kind while he scanned for a sign.
There IS a clearly represented Wolverine with a strong healing factor both before and after the crusade started till the Deadpool arc but not DURING.
There IS a feat that flat out contradicts the Cap arm crush after Wolverine had gone to get the C-synth.

There IS PLENTY of ON-PANEL evidence to come to the conlcussion that sleep and food were not on the top of Wolverine's priority list, and that they were neglected enough to affect Logan's performance, there is plenty of evidence that shows his healing factor was faster both before and after the low point to know that there's a reasonable difference during the low point. There IS ABSOLUTELY NO PROOF that Wolverine was well fed or well rested during this time WHATSOEVER, and any insinuations in the story lead directly to the contrary.... 😐

All you have to go off of to prove otherwise is the insinuation of what YOU would do in that situation, or what you think you would do, OR the insinuation that Wolverine's forearms getting crushed by Cap is something that's consistent with his normal rate of healing... in spite of the fact that the feat is contradicted later that arc, or the fact that Wolverine healed faster from multiple shield bashes to the forearms and wrists from Cap back in the 80's... Your argument is as poor as the examples you've been using to support it, and you project more bullshit than a movie theater. Until you have PROOF that isn't heaped on a pack of lies, circumstantial evidence, or your own hypocricitally powered speculation I think I've done more than prove my point here.

Originally posted by jrodslam
Honestly, DD has rolled with punches from almost all top fighters hes fought. IF never landed a full hit on him, but hes done it with Cap, Tasky, Echo(i believe), Ghostmaker. They may not all be on Wolvies lvl of MA, but hes done it to opponents other than powerhouses who he really does it often with.

When did Daredevil do this to Cap?

Originally posted by jrodslam
Against Wolvie, the radar wouldnt be an equalizer imo. It may hardly be relied on at all. True it doesnt really help much for attacks as well as defending against them, but it helps along with his senses.

The advantages you mention Wolvie holds wouldnt be noticeable in a fight with DD. Strength, speed(if that).

Wolverine has better Ofactory though I don't see how it would help.

Both have a keen sense of touch, both can use shifts in the air to react to danger.

Taste doesn't matter.

Sight doesn't matter too much.

So radar's the only thing that would even come into play IMO... I don't see a single thing that Daredevil has which would make up the difference against a stronger, possibly faster, and most likely better fighter.

Originally posted by jinzin
Perhaps the fact that they came from the top of your head is the reason why they're such poor examples.... Fact of the matter is you can't take ONE instance where Wolverine's taken down by a single strike to the throat and equate that to all the instances that far worse damage has put him down, or all the instances he's registered pain at some level. Silver Samurai and Ord being prime examples; offer no credability to DD being successful in a single strike, nor do they support this notion of precise damage being more potent to Logan than far more devistating things.
Wolverine's healng factor doesn't work slower in specific areas of the body than others, so why argue that it does? There's no such evidence to prove this and the fact that Wolverine bounces back to fight bricks like Hulk after getting bodyslammed and having all his organs liquified tends to lead one to believe that his healing factor doesn't give one damn about where you attack him...

What this all comes down to is that you've yet to provide any CREDIBLE examples to prove what you're attempting to argue here. Every example you've given so far has been littered with circumstance from the plot, not precise, or too ambiguous to dictate what happened (OFF PANEL). At the end of the day even if we gave credit to the examples that are not littered with plot devices such as your Ord, Silver Samurai, or Punisher feat..... that for every anti-feat you have of Logan, I can find multitudes that contradict it. On KMC battles we have these character's powers working at the peak of their effeciency, so using the lowest of showings (regardless of context) doesn't do anything to prove the cons of a character.
Your ridiculous insistance that Lobo put Logan down with a single claw rake just goes to show how little credit you're giving him here as if that feat had actually taken place outside of your imagination it WOULD very much be discarded compared to the literally dozens of examples I could find to the contrary.

And as for Origins...

Wolverine hadn't ate up to the point he fought Samurai for some time. BEFORE he passes out Wolverine references this. "Can't remember the last time I; Hungry...Should a..." Wolverine being unable to pin down the last time he ate doesn't lend credit to your babble that he did.

Wolverine stating that he held out as long as he can, gives credit to the argument that he was withholding himself from eating. Your insistance that he spent days on the ship would only compound on this argument....

And Wolverine even up to the point of meeting Black Widow said that he needed some sleep.... His means of travel hadn't radically altered, his situation hadn't become better up to the point of meeting Cap either.

So there IS evidence that Wolverine hadn't eaten up to meeting Silver Samurai past a point he could remember.
There IS evidence that Wolverine's hunger while on board the ship to Canada had become greater than the sum total of what it was while he trecked in a desert for 3 days even having taken decent damage.
And for that matter there IS evidence that Wolverine will forego food and sleep to see his way through to the end of a mission.
There ARE multiple statements in the headliners for the story that Wolverine was on a mission.
There ARE multiple references to Wolverine being on the run from every law enforcement agency in the world.
There ARE multiple references to the urgency of Wolverine's crusade:
Wolverine: "Told them to get me there in a hurry"

Bucky: "We don't have much time."

There IS a point in the story that Wolverine is offered a place to sleep and refuses to do so, even though he says he needs the sleep and looks as such by Black Widows account, giving credit to the notion he wasn't sleeping while traveling.
There ARE panels of Wolverine's hideout in Brooklyn displaying newspapers, radios and TV's on the floor with him in the middle, but no food or wrappers of any kind while he scanned for a sign.
There IS a clearly represented Wolverine with a strong healing factor both before and after the crusade started till the Deadpool arc but not DURING.
There IS a feat that flat out contradicts the Cap arm crush after Wolverine had gone to get the C-synth.

There IS PLENTY of ON-PANEL evidence to come to the conlcussion that sleep and food were not on the top of Wolverine's priority list, and that they were neglected enough to affect Logan's performance, there is plenty of evidence that shows his healing factor was faster both before and after the low point to know that there's a reasonable difference during the low point. There IS ABSOLUTELY NO PROOF that Wolverine was well fed or well rested during this time WHATSOEVER, and any insinuations in the story lead directly to the contrary.... 😐

All you have to go off of to prove otherwise is the insinuation of what YOU would do in that situation, or what you think you would do, OR the insinuation that Wolverine's forearms getting crushed by Cap is something that's consistent with his normal rate of healing... in spite of the fact that the feat is contradicted later that arc, or the fact that Wolverine healed faster from multiple shield bashes to the forearms and wrists from Cap back in the 80's... Your argument is as poor as the examples you've been using to support it, and you project more bullshit than a movie theater. Until you have PROOF that isn't heaped on a pack of lies, circumstantial evidence, or your own hypocricitally powered speculation I think I've done more than prove my point here.

Wow Jinzin....I respect your gangster 😄

Originally posted by jinzin

Even if you wanted to argue that the one sword stab was enough to...
well fit WHATEVER agenda you're attempting to prove this time. You can't argue as if it was against a healthy Logan anyways... Gorgon
didn't want to attack until Wolverine fatigued, Wolverine was fighting ninja who were seeping out methane gas from every wound.
Do you know what inhilation of methane gas does? The affect that Mathane Gas has on oxygen in any given environment can be lethal. Since it causes a displacement of oxygen in the atmosphere it can cause asphyxiation to the human body. Methane gas> not enough oxygen. Not enough oxygen to run through your system > no ability to use a mass of adrenaline. No adrenaline > Slower healing factor.
The affects of asphyxiation are of course faster acting when one is engaged in excercise since the body needs more oxygen this causes abnormal fatigue which is probably what Gorgon was reffering to when he said he was going to wait for Wolverine to fatigue a little before attacking him. And then there's the added symptoms of muscular incoordination, disturbed respiration, nausea,

Don't belive it now hes using the methane gas an excuse. Anyway in there second fight Gorgon stabbed him through the chest and Wolverine couldn't breath. Wolverine was helpless to stop Gorgon from tossing him against the wall.

I don't think the methane gas was supposed to do anything even if it was Gorgon has shown that he can deal with Wolverine without the methane, also Gorgon said that let them tire him out a LITTLE so even if he was weakened it was only a little bit.

Hell even in there second fight Gorgons punches were messing him up, so there goes your theory. LOL and prior to that he got dropped by Gorgon using a plank of wood against him.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Don't belive it now hes using the methane gas an excuse. Anyway in there second fight Gorgon stabbed him through the chest and Wolverine couldn't breath. Wolverine was helpless to stop Gorgon from tossing him against the wall.

I don't think the methane gas was supposed to do anything even if it was Gorgon has shown that he can deal with Wolverine without the methane, also Gorgon said that let them tire him out a LITTLE so even if he was weakened it was only a little bit.

Hell even in there second fight Gorgons punches were messing him up, so there goes your theory. LOL and prior to that he got dropped by Gorgon using a plank of wood against him.

Excuse? Why was it stated on panel, immediately following Gorgon telling his Dawn of the White Light ninja he was going to wait until Wolverine fatigued out a little? Oh right because like the entirety of the first several acts of Origins, it's just a coincidence.. It doesn't matter if Logan felt the affects of fatigue a little or at all... the point is that methane WOULD have an effect on the healing factor since Wolverine wouldn't be able to pump oxygen through his system.. Simple as that.

And that's just the point Zone... Gorgon DID stab Logan later in that arc. Once through the neck, which did.... NOTHING... as Logan was talking with the blade inside his throat, and once plucked out he was up and after Gorgon... When Gorgon stabbed him later.. Yeah Wolverine was hurt but he wasn't helpless... Gorgon tossed him immediately into a wall, and he still couldn't capitalize on his next attack since Wolverine got out of the way too fast. That right there discredits any notion that one hit of "precise damage" is enough to put Logan down.

And yeah his superhuman punches were hurting Logan... you know since he was landing multitudes of them.. so no my defense of Logan stands. One shot of "precise damage" is not going to leave Wolverine a gasping helpless heap on the ground as per the DD feat. The feat is PIS PERIOD.

Originally posted by socool8520
Wow Jinzin....I respect your gangster 😄

Originally posted by jinzin
Excuse? Why was it stated on panel, immediately following Gorgon telling his Dawn of the White Light ninja he was going to wait until Wolverine fatigued out a little? Oh right because like the entirety of the first several acts of Origins, it's just a coincidence.. It doesn't matter if Logan felt the affects of fatigue a little or at all... the point is that methane WOULD have an effect on the healing factor since Wolverine wouldn't be able to pump oxygen through his system.. Simple as that.

Look in my opinion the methane gas was not even supposed to slow him down...but even if you want to use that it excuse lets try this again........he said tire him out a LITTLE

So in other words you are exaggerating he his HF was not not heavily depleted he was only tired a little bit.

Originally posted by jinzin

And that's just the point Zone... Gorgon DID stab Logan later in that arc. Once through the neck, which did.... NOTHING... as Logan was talking with the blade inside his throat, and once plucked out he was up and after Gorgon... When Gorgon stabbed him later.. Yeah Wolverine was hurt but he wasn't helpless... Gorgon tossed him immediately into a wall, and he still couldn't capitalize on his next attack since Wolverine got out of the way too fast. That right there discredits any notion that one hit of "precise damage" is enough to put Logan down.

He got stabbed in the throat after Gorgon plonked him over the head with a plank of wood. You had better read the comic again because it shows Wolverine on his hands and knees and even then its not like the sword to the throat didnt do anything but he had time to heal it a bit...thats wen we see him next.

Yes Wolverine was helpess. Gorgon did not throw him into a wall immeditaley read the comic again. We see Gorgon stabbing Wolverine and actually lifting him up over 2 panels. Wolverine didn't do anything, and even after that Wolverine didn't recover quick enough for Gorgon to get the next strike.

Originally posted by jinzin

And yeah his superhuman punches were hurting Logan... you know since he was landing multitudes of them.. so no my defense of Logan stands. One shot of "precise damage" is not going to leave Wolverine a gasping helpless heap on the ground as per the DD feat. The feat is PIS PERIOD.

Gorgon has class 2 strength, since you've argued that Wolverine can take class 100 punches im going to assume that Gorgon using martial arts training and not brute strength.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Look in my opinion the methane gas was not even supposed to slow him down...but even if you want to use that it excuse lets try this again........he said tire him out a LITTLE

So in other words you are exaggerating he his HF was not not heavily depleted he was only tired a little bit.

He got stabbed in the throat after Gorgon plonked him over the head with a plank of wood. You had better read the comic again because it shows Wolverine on his hands and knees and even then its not like the sword to the throat didnt do anything but he had time to heal it a bit.

Yes Wolverine was helpess. Gorgon did not throw him into a wall immeditaley read the comic again. We see Gorgon stabbing Wolverine and actually lifting him up over 2 panels. Wolverine didn't do anything, and even after that Wolverine didn't recover quick enough for Gorgon to get the next strike.

Gorgon has class 2 strength, since you've argued that Wolverine can take class 100 punches im going to assume that Gorgon using martial arts training and not brute strength.

Logan wouldn't notice whether or not he was tired. Perhaps he was a little fatigued but he wouldn't notice that his healing factor wasn't running up to par. It's pretty simply...

He had time to heal it? It was lodged in his throat! How ridiculous is that?
And as for the plank Gorgon had to whack Logan repeatidly with a steel lace wrapped around the plank.
He only had Logan lifted for one panel, he threw him pretty damned immediately.... And yes Wolverine very much did recover fast enough before Gorgon could land the next strike otherwise the sword would not have been planted into the ground instead.

He had class 2 strength according to sheilds files that weren't even up to date on Gorgon and what he was packing after his ressurection...

But wait... let me get this right... Gorgon repeatedly hitting Wolverine with a metal wrapping, stabbing him through the throat hard enough to embed Logan in concrete, Wolverine and him falling a couple dozen stories on his head, Gorgon gutting him, then puncturing his lung, then running up and hitting him for god knows how long with more punches hard enough to embed Logan's head into concrete and Logan STILL winning the fight and walking away from it, somehow validates to you that DD dropping him with a single strike is acceptable in comparison? 😕

😂

Originally posted by jinzin
But wait... let me get this right... Gorgon repeatedly hitting Wolverine with a metal wrapping, stabbing him through the throat hard enough to embed Logan in concrete, Wolverine and him falling a couple dozen stories on his head, Gorgon gutting him, then puncturing his lung, then running up and hitting him for god knows how long with more punches hard enough to embed Logan's head into concrete and Logan STILL winning the fight and walking away from it, somehow validates to you that DD dropping him with a single strike is acceptable in comparison? 😕