Wolverine vs. Daredevil - H2H

^ Jinzin, you are repeating the same gibberish over and over again. And in a lot of instances, have switched and qualified your opinions over and over again. Dude. Take a chill pill, Daredevil downing Wolverine briefly with as nerve shot is not PIS. The fact that you like to simply my statements is garbage. A "lucky shot" on Rocky Marciano is not evidence of his overall ability to take punishment. But it does prove that he is susceptible to them, AS ANY OTHER FIGHTER would. Fact is, the burden of proof is on you to prove that Wolverine could OR should NEVER be subject to precise damage. Let's go ahead and reframe the issue because you like to think you've cornered my logic and you absolutely have not:

Wolverine's majority showings show he can take and fight without pause great damage.

Wolverine's minority showings show that he is susceptible to brief pauses by precise and localized damage.

Are the two mutually exclusive by each other? Absolutely not. An idiot could tell you that one does not negate the other. Just because Wolverine can be briefly put down for a few seconds by precise and localized damage DOES NOT negate his majority showings where he takes them in stride. ESPECIALLY when the "low showings" are consistently performed by top tier fighters. By that very same virtue, just because Wolverine can take a lot of damage in stride, DOES NOT negate his susceptibility to precise localized damage, ESPECIALLY when it only involves him being put down for seconds or moments AND when they are consistently performed by top tier fighters.

You want to be infantile in your reductionist arguments and ignore the common sense behind not using one to absolutely and discriminately negate the other, that's your cup o bitter tea. Point is, it's bs. As much bs as it is when you don't apply the same logic to DD when he gets taken down in three panels, WHEN HE HAS NEVER BEEN EMBARASSED IN HIS CAREER TO SUCH A DEGREE, and when you apply my logic to Wolverine's feats against Sabretooth...

... AND ESPECIALLY when you concoct the most ridiculous myths about Wolverine. You ALREADY were forced to step away from the assertion that Wolverine started his quest right after House of M. You ALREADY have stepped away from the utterly stupid assertion that Wolverine never ate a single bite or never slept a single wink AFTER infiltrating Weapon X in Canada. And you even realized the utter stupidity of it yourself when you actually went and outright LIED that you ever asserted such a thing in the first place! What? You really think I have the memory of a goldfish that I can't recall something you argued for a few pages before you lying about it? Or that I never visited your own respect thread where you completely published the ludicrous idea? Who gives a crap about whether you believe I underestimate Wolverine. You friggin outright lied about your own damn positions. But you know what? I pointed that out already a few pages ago. And I don't need to harp on about it. I can undo all your assertions through logic itself. So here's another pointed question just to expose how dumb your myth is: "Did Wolverine continue eating parts of himself AFTER his boatride to Canada?" [/u]Answer the question. Yes or no.[/u]

Once again personifying hypocrisy.

You're the one who continuously repeats the same bullshit "evidence" of "on-panel" feats to support that the DD feat isn't PIS completely regardless of context. You're the one who keeps dodging important questions and proof that discredits your arguments... The one who's failed to concede even the smallest of points even when "ON-PANEL" evidence is brought to the table to prove you wrong, making up comic events in issues that have never taken place.... Hell.... You've projected your desperation onto me before in this thread and only continue to do so here.

But at the end of the day....
You NEED to prove that the feat of DD putting Logan down is legitimate
in some fasion.... you HAVEN'T...
You NEED to prove that Logan was near peak condition while fighting
Cap... you HAVEN'T....

And instead of proving anything about your position, you've only succeeded in criticising me of mine (regardless of evidence) and accusing me of doing the things you yourself are guilty of....
Myths?
All you've done is make up your own "myth" regarding Wolverine being more suseptible to damage in localized spots than he is on the by and large... NEVER in ANY comic Wolverine has appeared in as this been stated, pondered, or even suggested.... AT ALL.... and yet you continue on stating it as a fact... It isn't one.. and the fact that you think it is only goes to show how far gone in your own hypocrisy you really are.

You think because there's a few low showings of Wolverine being hurt by a certain attack here and there, that automatically seperates it from the high showings as a legitimate feat simply because it's being performed by a skilled fighter at the time?... It is nonsense when I can come up with 5 or more examples to the contrary for every one you've posted... 10 to 20 examples to the contrary for every LEGITIMATE one you've posted... and I've just been going off the top of my head.
The way your argument works, the Thing could be likely to KO Wolverine with a bonk to the head I suppose, it beckons one to ask if you even understand the concept of what a low showing is.

You want to argue there to be a consistency with high ranking fighters?
What a joke!
Half the people who were cutting Wolverine's throat or stabbing him through the chest WERE high ranking fighters...
Ogun, Gorgon, Shingen, Silver Samurai, Azreal, Swordsmen, Mr. X, Mystique, Kitty Pride, X-23..... There's no consistency with high class fighters doing more damage to Logan than anyone else.. There's just low showings; just like there's low showings against more physically imposing opponents.... But low showings do not a character make.

And yet still.... not ONE of those people have ever one shotted Logan like DD did... whether it was against Wolverine pre- Fatal Attractions, against Wolverine while taxed, against Wolverine while poisoned... Even with every advantage to their favor.... NO ONE EVER HAS ONE SHOTTED LOGAN with a single strike like DD did in that ENNIS issue... 😐

But it's legitimate huh? Even though Logan was standing up to having half his body mass blown to a skeleton in the same arc?
Yeah... 🙄
But I know what you'd say to that... "No one's ever embarrassed DD blah blah blah"

Wrong.. but since you want to whine about the DD example again. I did show you equivolent evidence. It wasn't in YOUR opinion because you choose to ignore Elektra's composure during the fight, choose to ignore how she feels about Matt, and choose to ignore... well... CONTEXT... like you have been throughout the entirety of this discussion.... but it doesn't matter at any rate... wanna know why?

The simple fact of the matter is that this Logic of DD not being owned doesn't work for one very important reason......
I can show you other evidence of Logan owning people at, below, around, and above Matt's area of skill just as badly if not worse...
Shang Chi,
Ogun,
Azreal (for years without taking one hit),
Azreal and a clone of himself at the same time without taking one hit,
Matsuo
One shotting Crossbones (Cap's failed to do this with a damned shield)
Shatterstar
Bucky
Zaran
X-23
And it doesn't end there....

It's not uncommon for Logan to beat highly skilled MAs in a few panels with minimal effort... How many times has DD successfully one shotted someone with Wolverine's T-1000 rate of healing?
If I see DD one shotting people who are capible of having every organ in their body liquified only to continue to fight or get up without a moments hesitation, then perhaps I'd be more inclined to deem the feat as not PIS.... but that isn't the case is it...

Funny too is your continuous defection to a pre-multi-upgraded Sabretooth.... Humorous because....
The last time I checked, DD gave all he could handle against Sabretooth and didn't even manage to slow him down before he (DD) was incapible of continuing to fight... Sabretooth's HF at that time was not even close to as impressive as Wolverine's... In fact his fight with Wolverine slightly before the DD fight was the only implication that he even had superpowers that ranged outside of enhanced senses....

Now....

I never said that Wolverine never ate a single bite nor slept a single wink simply because that's never been a notion of mine in spite of what you feel like dictating. I DID say he hadn't ate and hadn't slept which was a generalization because quite frankly.... generally speaking of course.. he hadn't. It's pretty obvious in the story that food and sleep were on the low end of his priority list enough to make a considerable difference compared to his regular performance.... You feel compelled to argue otherwise? Fine... but where's your proof? You don't have any.. The only thing that comes close to proving your position on this case is supposition based on what you think you would do, or based on your ridiculous assertion that Wolverine needing 5 minutes to heal his arms is his usual rate of healing...
One's speculation,
the other's totally unsupported and contradicted by the same writer in the same story line 7 issues later.

There's a difference between lying about an instance and making a general assessment of the situation... Hey what issue of Black Panther did Wild Child "own Wolverine" in anyways? 😉
Where did it say Wolverine got hit with a napalm bomb again? 😉

What this comes down to is simple... All the facts, and the majority of real existing EVIDENCE lies on my side of the debate.

Yours? Not so much.. You have skewed examples, low showings, and Ennis..
that's it.

You cornered yourself, I had nothing to do with it, I just pointed it
out.
Funny that your automatic retort was an inadvertant comparison of yourelf to a child yet again.. lmao...

You know what else a child could tell me? If one had a pile of 100 blue buttons that it would be highly unlikely that one would pluck the single red button out of that pile while blindfolded.... but that's what you're doing here taking that red coated button and exclaiming that one would be able to pluck it out of the pile every time..... You're pulling on the lowest of showings, trying to compare it to other circumstantialy based low showings and attempting to create a false standard... but anyone who understands context and the CONCEPT of minority vs. majority showings can see through that like a sheet of glass.

"Lucky shot" does not sum the total of one's career not being hit
with "lucky shots"

PIS does not sum the total of Wolverine's career not being dropped by one hit.

"Nuff said"

As for your question... Probably not... does this mean that Wolverine was eating and resting sufficiently to a point that he was performing near the standard of his capabilities?
NO.
Something I'm sure Black Widow could attest to...

You can try to use leading questions all you want, but they don't work for any quarry who has a brain in his head...

Originally posted by jinzin
The simple fact of the matter is that this Logic of DD not being owned doesn't work for one very important reason......
I can show you other evidence of Logan owning people at, around, and above Matt's area of skill just as badly if not worse...

^ Longest. Post. Ever. I don't have to prove that Wolverine is susceptible to brief moments of incapacitation to localized precise damage. There are plenty of ON-PANEL examples out there that aren't being written by Ennis. Oh of course you can never let Ennis go... even though you unabashedly accept Tieri's fight where the guy admitted he wrote the story specifically to screw with Punisher. Double-standards once again...

The burden is on you to disprove every single one of them as being clearly beyond the realm of reason. That is the essence of PIS. Where for whatever reason, an author decides that Spiderman can beat Firelord with his fists or Black Panther can armbar Silver Surfer. Daredevil using a nerve strike to down Wolverine for a few seconds? Not the same thing. Not even close.

There's no myth I'm creating. These things happen to Wolverine every once in a while. Where instead of shrugging it off, Wolverine is given pause. Yes. He can be given pause. Indeed, you yourself have already shown examples. But see... that's besides the point. Because it's not so much that you're utterly wrong and are fighting an uphill battle trying to explain ALL instances throughout his history... As I said before, you've got reason to believe that all those instances ought to be regarded as infeasible. No... The real problem is you use double-standards and hold extremely low showings against Wolverine's foes, but not Wolverine himself. Wonder what happened to those supposed times that Cap and Elektra embarassed Daredevil worse than that one Wolvie scan... Oh yeah. Turns out you were full of it. And those Sabretooth scans? The Inferno scan, maybe I could forgive. Even though you fail the age of the scan and offer the context in your own respect thread. But hey, self-serving logic in your own respect thread is your prerogative! But the other two scans? You have to somehow fit it in during a time where... wait.. what did you say? A time before Sabretooth's healing factor was tweaked? Please!!!! Those two scans you gleefully put up were published in comics well after those times in Sabretooth's past where his healing factor had been integrated as part of his established character. Want proof? Sabretooth's healing factor was good enough in the second set of scans for him to actually heal his hand just by reattaching it! Hell, he did it faster than Deadpool was able to in Wolverine: Origins! Please. Enough excuses. Double-standards fail.

And let's stop discussing your Wolverine "never-eats-a-single bit-and-never-sleeps-a-single-wink" myth. I won't change your mind, but I couldn't stand seeing you spin Wolverine: Origins so terribly without giving context or explaining your clear mistakes. That issue is done and over with. Kick the dirt on the grave and plant some flowers, nobody's going to buy that myth anymore whose read that story, pal.

Originally posted by jinzin
As for your question... Probably not... does this mean that Wolverine was eating and resting sufficiently to a point that he was performing near the standard of his capabilities?
NO.
Something I'm sure Black Widow could attest to...

You can try to use leading questions all you want, but they don't work for any quarry who has a brain in his head...

And out of all honest curiousity, where is Black Widow coming into all this anyway?

Originally posted by socool8520
That seems pretty immediate to me. Stab,lift,throw. Three precise actions. Does it say he stopped for a drink or something in between panels? 🙂 To me it seem it's three panels long to specify what happened, not to express an extended period of time. I figure if he was really doing it slowly, then there would have been more panels implying that.

don't get me wrong he didnt spend 100 years on the sword but it was not immediate. He gets stabbed you see Wolverine going argh...you seem him lifting him up and then chucking him thats not immediate. If it wasn't immediate how an else are you going to portray that? The different panels indicate it didnt happen in a split second.

Originally posted by jinzin
Uh.. No.... Gorgon made reference to Wolverine's fatigue not his healing factor.
Wolverine could have been slightly fatigued but had a waaaay slowed down HF...

Either way it doesn't really matter. You can't use it as a point to validate DD's PIS in any instance.

Of course you could argue that the gas didn't effect Logan.. I mean sure why not it's just another thing you could attempt to rob Wolverine the benefit of the doubt/common sense/logic/science/physics/physiology.....

You're not listening are you? YOU said that the methane gas was hindering Wolverine HF, and you deduced this by what Gorgon said. You are now just trying to twist your argumet around.

Originally posted by jinzin

Yes he was stabbed in one panel... one panel in which he was also stabbing Gorgon..

he was lifted in the second....

He was tossed in the third....

He was only up on the blade for one panel... not three... he wasn't on the sword indefinitely he was chucked pretty damned immediately... and it still wasn't enough to put him down.

Im not saying he was on the sword for a 100 years but if the blow had not been a serious one Wolverine would have been able to strike back with his claws.

Originally posted by jinzin

What excuse do I need? Gorgon's a BAMF... him using super strength packing skill level that exceeds people like Elektra and Wolverine combined, while bashing away at Wolverine with a metal wrapping that took Elektra out in one shot completely and dropping Wolverine to his knees for a few seconds really is no big deal, it doesn't help that Gorgon saw fit to stab Wolverine in the throat and Wolverine was still talking through it. It doesn't validate DD's moment of PIS no matter how you look at it.

He has class2 strength!!!!!! Not class 100. How many bloody times have you argued that Wolverine can take class 100 shots. If Gorgon can drop Wolverine with a piece of wood im pretty damn sure he doesnt need methane gas to hinder him.

First panel Wolverine gets stabbed...hed does nothing.
Second panel Wolverine gets lifted he does nothing.
Therefore the blow was a serious one and Woplvrine was not able to fight abck at that point.

Ignoring the content of what's being discussed once again... How was Tieri's rendition of Punisher unfit other than the insinuation that he was gay?
Did he perform poorly against Wolverine? NO...

And yes you very much DO need to prove that since it's the ****ing pillar of your argument...
If its in enough pieces of "on-panel" evidence to not be PIS, perhaps you'd be inclined to share them. So far you've failed.. Your examples, completely discredited...

This constant retreat to Firelord vs. Spiderman is as much nonsense as the rest of the garbage you write. PIS isn't made by street> herald writing.. the fact that you acknowledged Spidey getting KO'd by Aunt May is PIS is proof that you understand that different levels of PIS exist... you're just arguing that this instance isn't because, like you projected onto me... you can't concede one damned thing... 🙂

The "No PIS" Rule

PIS = Plot Induced Stupidity

At times, for the sake of the plot, characters that are immensely more powerful than their opponent will "job" to carry on the plot of the story, even though the characters powers and history would clearly show that they are more than capable of destroying their opponent. For this reason we have a No PIS Rule. This rule prohibits the use of such instances of PIS from being used as evidence in debates.

= Says nothing of Spiderman...... OR Firelord... or Black Panther... or Silver Surfer..... 😐
Yeah you're failing again.....

😂 Oh it's not a myth huh? Aside from using your one sided examples full of discarded context or innaccurate interpretations what's to call it a fact? "On-panel" statements? UH NO.
Wolverine's standard performance? UH NO.
Your assertion that it isn't a myth? Bingbingbing!

The fact of the matter is that I HAVE disproved every SINGLE example you've brought to the table thus far. The only examples that are not ridden with self-discrediting context are the ones that aren't precise or otherwise written by Ennis....

Examples of DD and Elektra embarrassing DD are all there you just fail to give those examples the credit they deserve as long as it suits your purposes as well oh wait Elektra was totally trying, she's totally not hindered by leftover affections for Matt, she was of course looking for a fight, and DD had to worry about her attacking him as well.... Not like Cap's ever Knocked him silly with 2 punches either....

AND JEEEZUS CHRIST! You're seriously going to use Loebs retcon to justify that Sabretooth's HF was faster acting than Deadpools back in the day when the examples you're attacking are from 30 years ago when his powers weren't completely clear and he didn't even have a well developed character yet?
ABSOLUTE NONSENSE.
(but...
Fine.. IN THAT SAME ARC, by the SAME WRITER, Wolverine stabs CURRENT Sabretooth through the heart with THREE BLADES instead of one and it didn't even register an affect on Ol' Sabes... )
What you're failing to realize with Sabes is that Sabretooth has had upgrades SINCE THOSE INCIDENTS TOOK PLACE.... or are you so inept in your own examples that you don't even realize that the other two examples sides Inerno are STILL events that took place well before Weapon X?... 😐

You talk a bunch of shit.. that's all you do..

Myth busted? Can't bust a fact bucko.
And when it comes to FACTS.. when it comes to ON PANEL evidence... EVERYTHING presented only leads to one logical conclussion... WOLVERINE WAS LACKING NURISHMENT AND SLEEP DEPRIVED TO A DEGREE THAT GREATLY AFFECTED THE EFFECIENCY OF HIS HEALING FACTOR BY THE TIME HE FOUGHT CAP....

To refuse to see that is to completely ignore the context of the entirety of the story but oh wait! You're a natural at that..
Or to ignore the strict contradictory performance of Wolverine's HF both before and after this low point.. oh wait you do that already too! 😱

Claim false victories if it helps you sleep at night. Pretend you're pitiful (and discedited) examples are justified in spite of being outnumbered 2 to 1 by the stuff of the top of my head in this thread alone nevermind Wolverine's whole career. Use retcons today to justify your attacks against feats that took place before a character's upgrades to equate him to after the upgrades.

Talk about double standards til you're blue in the face.... Just remember that when you're done yelling your ass off at the kettle to look at the ****in mirror....

On panel evidence only counts when you say it does.
Speculation doesn't count unless it benefits you.
And "lucky shots" of course make up the sum total of one's career......

And all this to defend an issue where Wolverine with his heightened smell, DD with his heightened hearing, and Spiderman with his SS couldn't tell that Punisher was behind them with a rocket launcher 30 feet away. An issue where Daredevil's arm sockets weren't strong enough to support the weight of the Punisher, where Spiderman's spider sense was "faked out" with fake mines, where Wolverine wasn't KOed by a rocket to the gut, or a Hulk punch across state, but Hulk WAS KOd by a bomb in his belly written by a writer who admits to taking a piss with superheroes... 😐

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
You're not listening are you? YOU said that the methane gas was hindering Wolverine HF, and you deduced this by what Gorgon said. You are now just trying to twist your argumet around.

Gorgon's statement only lends credit to it. It compounds on the argument.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Im not saying he was on the sword for a 100 years but if the blow had not been a serious one Wolverine would have been able to strike back with his claws.

After that the advantage of reach took hold.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
He has class2 strength!!!!!! Not class 100. How many bloody times have you argued that Wolverine can take class 100 shots. If Gorgon can drop Wolverine with a piece of wood im pretty damn sure he doesnt need methane gas to hinder him.

I didn't say Gorgon needed the gas, he could probably drop Logan to his knees with repeated sword strikes but the Dawn of the White Light didn't want to risk it.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
First panel Wolverine gets stabbed...hed does nothing.
Second panel Wolverine gets lifted he does nothing.
Therefore the blow was a serious one and Woplvrine was not able to fight abck at that point.

In the second one he's no leverage and hoisted into the air... He was tossed off the blade before he could fight back.. if being hoisted on a sword could finish him don't you think Gorgon would have left him there. 🤨

Jinzin, please forgive them, for they know not what they do......

pray

wolverine, too much power, too much durability, and a much more skilled fighter then dd.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol
Jinzin, please forgive them, for they know not what they do......

pray

Don't encourage him. 😐

Originally posted by jinzin
No... I came to that conlusion based on what methane gas DOES....

Yes.

Originally posted by jinzin

Gorgon's statement only lends credit to it. It compounds on the argument.

Ok but you implied that Gorgon wanted to use the gas to hinder Wolverines HF and you deduced that from Gorgons statement.

Originally posted by jinzin

He was already striking back with his claws... 😕

He had his claws in Gorgon and he did jack shit, which proves my point even further, when he got struck by the sword he didnt try to dig his claws deeper or tear him apart.

Originally posted by jinzin

After that the advantage of reach took hold.

No it didn't read the comic again and stop exaggerating.

Originally posted by jinzin

He had class 2 strength BEFORE his ressurrection.. Afterwards, nobody knew WHAT the extent of his powers were.. Considering how easily he overpowered both Wolverine and Elektra class 2 is a hard pill to swallow.

Right so basically you're arguing that since Gorgon was able to take on Wolverine and Elektra and you don't like that fact he must have got an upgrade?

Gorgon didn't say he had upgrades. The Hand didn't say he had upgrades. The Dawn of the white light didn't say he had upgrades. SHIELD didn't say he had upgrades but were gonna assume he did because you don't like the fact he embarrased Wolverine Elektra? 🤨

Hell you deduced that Northstar got upgrades because he said so and gave some demonstrations you didn't just assume he had them.

Originally posted by jinzin

I didn't say Gorgon needed the gas, he could probably drop Logan to his knees with repeated sword strikes but the Dawn of the White Light didn't want to risk it.

You are arguing thats the reason why he was able to do that with one strike.

Originally posted by jinzin

He was already stabbing back in the first panel.. 😐

In the second one he's no leverage and hoisted into the air... He was tossed off the blade before he could fight back.. if being hoisted on a sword could finish him don't you think Gorgon would have left him there. 🤨

Not arguing that it would have finished him. Im arguing that at least one pressure point strike or precise strikes can mess Wolverine up briefly.

He wasn't chucked before he could do anything he had his claws on him for crying out just let him Gorgon lift him up because he couldnt do anything. Hell even before he cucked he was speaking, Wolverine has enhanced reflexes and would have been able to react in that time but he didn't because he couldn't. Also the pictures shows that Wolverines body was shaking as he was lifted so he was not lifted in a swift motion.

Originally posted by Quincy
I'm going to side with Daredevil in this fight. I think Murdock is just smarter and faster than Wolverine. And the only way to really beat wolverine in a fight is to initally knock him out. I think Daredevil has the fighting capabilities and the billy club to hit Wolverine in a point to knock that durable mutant down for the count.

There are no clubs in this match. I wouldn't say that DD is more intelligent in strategy or skills. Wolverine has been cited as being a great strategist and trained in many ways of combat, so I don't see where DD being smarter comes from.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Pfft. Thought so. Myth. Busted. Admitted by the creator himself.

The writer said that Wolverine eat and slept?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
The writer said that Wolverine eat and slept?

Ate and slept. hahaha! I though I'd make a joke of it before someone destroyed you for it. 😛

People can't be civil = threads closed.