Wolverine vs. Daredevil - H2H

Originally posted by jinzin
And Daredevil is near the top in fighting skill and use of pressure points in that list. Just because you consider DD doing it to be the most personally embarassing, doesn't mean diddly-squat. It doesn't turn IDLI, IDH into PIS.

It's PIS.
IDLI, IDH has nothing to do with it.

Originally posted by jinzin
But if you for one second, put aside your utter ignorance of the many other times Wolverine's been briefly brought down by precise and localized damage... you know what makes your otherwise seemingly reasonable position a farce?

Originally posted by jinzin
You turn right around and post a respect thread of Wolverine and happily post these scans of Wolverine utterly embarassing Sabretooth, with: 1) a single stab; 2) two slashes and a heart stab; 3) uppercut and heart stab. This is an opponent with a comparable healing factor and long career of taking it to Wolverine. An opponent you yourself admitted would be Wolverine's superior in a fight. And you have the gall to sit there and lecture ME about using supposed low showings as proof? *sniff* *sniff* What is that I smell? Oh... it's just more of the same ole self-serving double standard bs:

If you're familiar with my arguments revolving around Sabretooth, then you're also aware that Sabretooth wasn't much more than a peak human before the mutant massacre, that he had been tweaked by Sinister during his time with the Marauders, that he'd been upgraded by Graydon Creed, that he had a noticeable increase in the effeciency of his healing factor after he was upgraded by Apocalypse, and that Weapon X also upgraded him.
2 examples of creed before the marauders and one example of him during Inferno validate anything about a guy who's healing factor was faster than his before Fatal Attractions?

UH, NO comes to mind....

Originally posted by jinzin
Double-standard much?

Originally posted by jinzin
It's ok for Wolverine to benefit from, by your logic, PIS-y moments, but not suffer from them?

Originally posted by jinzin
........ Apparently, Ari can't make another appearance today. That was for having the ballz to lie and try to deny something you said several times. This time, I'll be nicer and just use this to encapsulate your myths and double standards:

Originally posted by jinzin

Originally posted by hatredcopter
Guess you dont understand what Wolverine is about. Matts good, but Ennis is better 😉

Originally posted by Starscream M
uh...I'd be much more scared of a man who is well fed and energized than a man who's dumb enough to starve himself and deprive himself of sleep...but that's just little ol' me

This starved and sleep deprived man has still taken it to, and performed with superior performance against the likes of Mystique, Captain America, Winter Soldier, Cyclops, and Silver Samurai... 😕

Originally posted by Juk3n
Ari was right, it's still DD for a majority.

And it is ok if Wolverine doesn't win one forum battle. It's not the same as saying he CANT win, he CAN..it's just some people like Ari and myself think he won't.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
Agreed. Logan can win but in the long run under this scenario is should be the minority. The circumstances play to much in DD's favor with Logan's healing factor removed.

Hm, the insinuation that I can't bring myself to admit Logan's defeat is quite innaccurate.
I'll readily admit when Logan is in a losing scenario.. This isn't one of them.
The problem is that Logan's constantly put into the same types of fights; either against street level characters or against bricks who don't have an answer for his claws (I.E.HF or invulnerability). Wolverine typically excells at these types of fights.
But put Logan into fights against people who have an answer for the Adamantium, have a range to keep Wolverine at bay that doesn't fall under conventonal weaponry and Logan start losing more fights.
I know when he's outmatched...
SM, DD, and Cap vs. Loges? Wolverine loses the majority, even with cover and a B-rage.
Wolverine vs. Hulk? Nothing but a one sided ass stomping no matter how admirably Wolverine performs.
Wolverine vs. Dock Ock with Admantium in a bookstore? Even cover won't help Wolvie there.
Wolverine vs. Sandman? Nothing James can do.
Wolverine vs. Vindicator? Short of Vindi shorting his suit out or dropping his shields, Wolverine's gonna get the crap kicked out of him.
Wolverine vs. Madarin in a straight fight? 😂

But Wolverine vs. DD? Even without a healing factor in a h2h matchup.. Wolverine's still the stronger of the two. Still the faster of the two. And still argueably a superior fighter with more experience. Plus his pain tolerance even without a healing factor is way off the charts.

This fight is basically DD vs. a stronger, faster, and more skilled version of Punisher. And I think we can all agree that Punisher AS HE IS would give Murdock hell on wheels and even squeak out some wins to boot.

Given that Wolverine has time to adjust to his weakened state there's no reason for me to begin to give Matt the majority here, and an Ennis written issue of Punisher where a fight between the two takes place is the farthest thing from proof that would convince me otherwise.

Originally posted by jinzin

Wolverine vs. Dock Ock with Admantium in a bookstore? Even cover won't help Wolvie there.

it shows you have moments of objectivity

Originally posted by Starscream M
yeah, your answer in that thread was a refreshing surprise

it shows you have moments of objectivity

Originally posted by jinzin
I'm just going to ignore the insulting manner of your post and instead celebrate the fact that you're posting complete and coherent thoughts. Just remember those periods end the thought okay? 😉

Originally posted by jinzin
But Wolverine vs. DD? Even without a healing factor in a h2h matchup.. Wolverine's still the stronger of the two. Still the faster of the two. And still argueably a superior fighter with more experience. Plus his pain tolerance even without a healing factor is way off the charts.

This fight is basically DD vs. a stronger, faster, and more skilled version of Punisher. And I think we can all agree that Punisher AS HE IS would give Murdock hell on wheels and even squeak out some wins to boot.

Given that Wolverine has time to adjust to his weakened state there's no reason for me to begin to give Matt the majority here, and an Ennis written issue of Punisher where a fight between the two takes place is the farthest thing from proof that would convince me otherwise.

I dont agree with you on this in re: to Wolvie in a h2h fight without a healing factor vs DD.

Wolvie may be stronger, but not strong enought to make a difference in a h2h fight. Strength is hardly considered here imo. Faster? I personally think that DD's fighting speed is slightly better than Logans. What kinda gets me about the 1st paragraph is that you say "And still arguably a superior fighter...", but you dont think that their combat speed arent arguably similar?

As far as the comment on Punisher vs DD goes, certain fights are close because thats pretty much whats called for to make it somewhat close. Its just like how at times, its mentioned Wolvie doing so well or taking x amount of hits vs A, yes cant take it vs person B. Then pis or cis is used. Punisher only does as good vs DD, as Matt allows him to do.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
YOU HAVE NO PROOF THAT WOLVERINE NEVER ATE A SINGLE BITE OR NEVER SLEPT A SINGLE WINK BEFORE JAPAN OR AFTER CANADA.

Just a quick stop in (I'm too busy to be an active poster this week).

And by the same token you have no proof that he did. You need to consider that Wolverine's lack of food and sleep, and a hindered healing factor was brought up in the confines of the story. Now, why would Way even bother with that if - like you are suggesting - he rectified immediately afterwards (off panel no less) while Wolverine bounced around the globe? It was a revelation that didn't have any impact on what had came before it and unless it was meant to explain Wolverine's dialed down healing factor in the coming issues it served no point. Remember Wolverine Origins was originally supposed to take place within the normal Wolverine title as a continuation of the Origins and Endings arch.

No one is suggesting Way is infallible... or even that his story is incredibly well planed or thought out(or thought out at all for that matter), but I think his intentions were pretty clear. And seriously, what's more ridiculous: giving Wolverine the benefit of the doubt and assuming he hadn't eaten or rested as the story implies despite the lack of logic... or saying Wolverine has an incomplete skull and is missing several bones? Because I seem to recall you where pretty adamant on the second one, despite the holes in logic/common sense/anatomy... certainly that oppinion requires a MUCH bigger leap of faith than the idea we are discussing now.

Originally posted by Starscream M
I'm sorry, but you lost all credibility when you claimed that jet lag affected Logan.

Sleep cycles are adjusted through eye lids not health.

Originally posted by jrodslam
I dont agree with you on this in re: to Wolvie in a h2h fight without a healing factor vs DD.

Wolvie may be stronger, but not strong enought to make a difference in a h2h fight. Strength is hardly considered here imo. Faster? I personally think that DD's fighting speed is slightly better than Logans. What kinda gets me about the 1st paragraph is that you say "And still arguably a superior fighter...", but you dont think that their combat speed arent arguably similar?

Originally posted by jrodslam
As far as the comment on Punisher vs DD goes, certain fights are close because thats pretty much whats called for to make it somewhat close. Its just like how at times, its mentioned Wolvie doing so well or taking x amount of hits vs A, yes cant take it vs person B. Then pis or cis is used. Punisher only does as good vs DD, as Matt allows him to do.

Originally posted by jinzin
And ad nauseum doesn't make invalid points any more credible the 100th time you state them than they were the first.

Originally posted by jinzin
I don't think that Wolverine is leagues stronger or faster, or that he's even leagues better in fighting ability. His advantage in all areas would be pretty slight. But it's BECAUSE they're so similar that those edges give Wolverine a majority in my opinion.

I think Wolvies slight edge in strength would give him an advantage only if his punches/kicks fully connected often. In a DD vs Wolvie fight, i dont see that happening. I do believe that DD's fighting speed is faster than Wolvies as well as reaction/counter timing(senses). Faster timing/countering > being similar in skill or having a slight edge in strength imo.

Originally posted by jinzin
I'm not arguing that Punisher would win. I realize you're not stating that I am, but your argument comes across that way. There's a consistency with Punisher giving DD at least a difficult time, can you honestly not agree that he can?

Id say Punisher is more of an annoyance to DD consistently, lol. There are/have been times where Pun has put up greats fights. There also are/have been times where the fight between the two were short. In answer to your question, id probably say its like 50/50. Then again on DD's behalf i can easily call pis because of things DD never tried to execute on Frank.

Originally posted by Boy Blue
Why the hell do you keep insulting yourself in this post?

CUZ I'M CAHRAZY!

Originally posted by jrodslam
I think Wolvies slight edge in strength would give him an advantage only if his punches/kicks fully connected often. In a DD vs Wolvie fight, i dont see that happening. I do believe that DD's fighting speed is faster than Wolvies as well as reaction/counter timing(senses). Faster timing/countering > being similar in skill or having a slight edge in strength imo.

Originally posted by jrodslam
Id say Punisher is more of an annoyance to DD consistently, lol. There are/have been times where Pun has put up greats fights. There also are/have been times where the fight between the two were short. In answer to your question, id probably say its like 50/50. Then again on DD's behalf i can easily call pis because of things DD never tried to execute on Frank.

Originally posted by jinzin
DD's fighting speed is not anywhere near faster though his reaction/counter/timing might be superior due to his radar sense, I wouldn't say that gives him a massive advantage over Wolverine either. Wolverine's strength advantage would certainly come into play if they ended up on the ground or he gets ahold of DD (we're talking about a guy who has multiple times crushed metal doors, pipes, and training dummies with his grip strength alone.)

DD's reaction/counter/timing in a h2h fight would be considered as part of his fighting speed would it not? Faster dodging which leads to counter attacks. Im not saying it give him a massive advantage either, but i do think its a better advantage to have than strength or slight skill if that. A tussle on the ground may cause a problem if a grasp is made. It can pose as a difficult task, so the IF is used heavily. Kingpin once grabbed DD and Matt used a nerve hit on him to loosen the grip.😬

Originally posted by jinzin
That's more to do with CIS than PIS. 😬

Doh! Thats what i mean to put.

Originally posted by jrodslam
DD's reaction/counter/timing in a h2h fight would be considered as part of his fighting speed would it not? Faster dodging which leads to counter attacks. Im not saying it give him a massive advantage either, but i do think its a better advantage to have than strength or slight skill if that. A tussle on the ground may cause a problem if a grasp is made. It can pose as a difficult task, so the IF is used heavily. Kingpin once grabbed DD and Matt used a nerve hit on him to loosen the grip.😬

Doh! Thats what i mean to put.

Even saying that DD is Wolverine's equal in reaction speed or combat speed, is giving Matt the benifit of the doubt. He certainly doesn't have the edge.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Even saying that DD is Wolverine's equal in reaction speed or combat speed, is giving Matt the benifit of the doubt. He certainly doesn't have the edge.

Is it giving him the benefit of the doubt? Why so?

Originally posted by jrodslam
Is it giving him the benefit of the doubt? Why so?

Mostly because there is no evidence to support it. 😈

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Mostly because there is no evidence to support it. 😈

I wouldnt say that. One example that supports that is their confrontations with Spidey. Spidey always has a hard time hitting DD. DD's bullet timing feats are just about unmatched.

Originally posted by jrodslam
DD's reaction/counter/timing in a h2h fight would be considered as part of his fighting speed would it not? Faster dodging which leads to counter attacks. Im not saying it give him a massive advantage either, but i do think its a better advantage to have than strength or slight skill if that. A tussle on the ground may cause a problem if a grasp is made. It can pose as a difficult task, so the IF is used heavily. Kingpin once grabbed DD and Matt used a nerve hit on him to loosen the grip.😬

Doh! Thats what i mean to put.

I think we're interpreting speed differently here.

When it comes to fighting I think characters/people have two different types of speed.

The first is sheer speed: A person's ability to put their fist or their foot from point A to point B in a certain amount of time during a fight. To this I give Wolverine a solid advantage even if it isn't much of one.

The second is reaction speed: A person's ability to perceive/interpret a threat and how long it take for them to react to the synapses firing in their brain alerting them to respond to it. Initially I want to give DD a slight advantage here due to radar sense, but then you have to consider that while DD may work off of radar sense, Wolverine's natural instincts and muscle memory are so ingrained with fighting that he doesn't have to even think TO fight, his body just naturally responds to whatever it needs to and on top of that his heightened senses help him as well.

I certainly don't think there's enough of an advantage there if DD has one at all that would dictate a win for him over Wolverine's several advantages.

and LOLz