Star Wars: The Old Republic [KOTOR MMO]

Originally posted by Peach
Light Side Sith? Ummm...contradiction much?

Biowares going for the angle that in this case the Sith are an entire empire of people, rather than a just the Sith Order. Not all of them are going to be power-crazed lunatics. And it seems that to be a Sith you won't necessarily need to use the dark side. In this case its not Dark Side vs Light Side, its Republic vs Empire. You can also be a Dark Jedi being a douche while fighting the Imperials.

Whether this'll be handled well or not is another matter. I personally raise my eyebrow at it but its intriqing I guess.

Originally posted by -Pr-
They don't care; this game is going to make so much money regardless.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Biowares going for the angle that in this case the Sith are an entire empire of people, rather than a just the Sith Order. Not all of them are going to be power-crazed lunatics. And it seems that to be a Sith you won't necessarily need to use the dark side. In this case its not Dark Side vs Light Side, its Republic vs Empire. You can also be a Dark Jedi being a douche while fighting the Imperials.

Whether this'll be handled well or not is another matter. I personally raise my eyebrow at it but its intriqing I guess.

This simply isn't Star Wars.

Originally posted by General Kaliero
Sadly I'm not of the opinion that stealing people's money with a crap game validates sacrificing the source material's integrity.

In my opinion, that's utterly ridiculous. The story of Star Wars has always been the Dark vs. the Light. The Sith have always been about the Dark Side, and the Jedi have always been about the Light Side.

This simply isn't Star Wars.

Neither am I, and it's probably why I won't be playing it, as much as my inner Jedi wants me to.

Originally posted by General Kaliero
In my opinion, that's utterly ridiculous. The story of Star Wars has always been the Dark vs. the Light. The Sith have always been about the Dark Side, and the Jedi have always been about the Light Side.

This simply isn't Star Wars.

So, 'they changed it, now it sucks?' 😉

I can respect that. Personally I'd find it pretty boring if everything always stayed the same. Re-imaginings are fun and add depth to a mythos when done right. Besides, having the entire empire be evil would be dumb as hell. I'm iffy on the concept of a Light Side Sith because of the fundamental corrupting element of the Dark Side, but I can see were their coming from with this. Not all Force Sensitives in the Empire want 'Unlimited Powah!'. Some probably just want to use the Force in service of the Great Sith Emperor (may he live forever).

But the game isn't out yet, so I'll wait until I make a judgement call. Also if you're still interested in the LightSide Sith issue there are a TON of threads about it in the Swtor forums. Alot of people agree with you.

The SWTOR forums? I spent like five minutes on there. Never seen such a hive of scum and villainy...

And it's less "they're changing it so it sucks", and more that they're changing the biggest, core part of what Star Wars is. Good vs. Evil. Light Side vs. Dark Side. That's what Star Wars is.

So yeah.

Light Side Sith.....yeah. Never gonna convince my friends of that. It's full darkie or nothing if I play this game. And I would really want to play as Tilulla. This would have to be her evil twin or something.

Shame, you're missing out on a sweet Twilek GF.

who you happen to kinda own

Originally posted by Peach
The SWTOR forums? I spent like five minutes on there. Never seen such a hive of scum and villainy...

And it's less "they're changing it so it sucks", and more that they're changing the biggest, core part of what Star Wars is. Good vs. Evil. Light Side vs. Dark Side. That's what Star Wars is.

So yeah.

Well the Empire is still pretty ****ing evil. Just because there you can be a good guy doesn't change that. I'm sure there were some good Nazis too.

IDK, it just doesn't bug me as much as it should.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Besides, having the entire empire be evil would be dumb as hell. I'm iffy on the concept of a Light Side Sith because of the fundamental corrupting element of the Dark Side, but I can see were their coming from with this. Not all Force Sensitives in the Empire want 'Unlimited Powah!'. Some probably just want to use the Force in service of the Great Sith Emperor (may he live forever).

And he was one of the less evil stories the Sith had.

The interplay of good and evil is simply the core of what the Force is. There can't be a Light Side Sith any more than there can be a flying mole. It's just not something that actually happens.

Originally posted by Digi
Light Side Sith.....yeah. Never gonna convince my friends of that. It's full darkie or nothing if I play this game.

Racist.

Originally posted by General Kaliero
I would in fact welcome this concept, were it any franchise other than Star Wars. In this mythos, the Dark Side always corrupts, and that corruption is always fueled by a selfish lust for power and/or control. Even Anakin's fall could be construed as that, with a selfish, possessive "love" for Padme. And after she died, the desire remained, just directed toward control of the galaxy, with plans for complete dominance by destroying the Emperor.

And he was one of the less evil stories the Sith had.

The interplay of good and evil is simply the core of what the Force is. There can't be a Light Side Sith any more than there can be a flying mole. It's just not something that actually happens.

That would be my problem with it as well, but in the game you start off as a new acolyte who hasn't actually been twisted by the darkside yet. If you want to you can take him/her/it down a lighter path.

Maybe in the movies its like that, but theres more to the Dark side in the Star Wars mythos than it only working one way. Besides which, stories change. Its natural for a mythos to change and evolve over time. Simple, stock Good vs Evil plots can only be told so many times in a setting before things get dull. IMO this is perfectly encapsolated by the recent Legacy of the Force storyline, wherein a Jedi turns to the darkside but tries to maintain a set of morals and principles. And for a time it was genuinely interesting and engaging. But then he went insane, got corrupted by the darkside and it turned into utter trash. They traded in complexity and moral ambiguity for another Crazy Sith Lord storyline. Yawn.

And from what, I've seen, its more of a role-playing element. You can be a power-mad douchenozzel or not depending on the situation. Did you expect a RPG where if you pick one side you can only be a meglomaniacal madman?

Well, for starters, most of the EU is utter shite that contradicts canon, so...

Star Wars is a fantasy in a fantasy universe where things are purely black and white. It's meant to be that simple. Just because people decided to muck it up in the books and games doesn't change what it is at its core.

"Megalomaniac madman" is not the only Dark Side option that exists, though video games tend to treat it as such due to mechanical limitations (looking at you, KOTOR2), btw.

The movies are the most valid view of the Force, so yeah.

Before they actually revealed anything, I honestly was hoping for a role-playing element that wouldn't have to lean on the flawed "Be a self-sacrificing altruistic idiot, a thieving murderous petty megalomaniac, or entirely devoid of personality," and instead offer roleplaying where you choose your side up front, and then play the nuances of each side. For example, a Sith who could solve a situation by murdering everyone involved, or helping out for a high fee, or subtly manipulating everyone so that he came out ahead with some money and some extra accessories for the effort. That game I would buy in an instant, because that level of roleplay would be something truly unique and genre-defining.

Instead, it's the exact same half-assed and hyperbolic "morality" system BioWare's used for eight years now, flying in the face of Star Wars' traditional black-and-white view of philosophy.

Star Wars is a fantasy, a fairy tale. It doesn't need good bad guys or jerk good guys. That's not what Star Wars is. It's simple and straight to the point.

Originally posted by Peach
Well, for starters, most of the EU is utter shite that contradicts canon, so...

Considering that this game is EU and considers this "utter shite" canon I fail to see your point.

Star Wars is a fantasy in a fantasy universe where things are purely black and white. It's meant to be that simple. Just because people decided to muck it up in the books and games doesn't change what it is at its core.

It certainly is not that simple especially due to the PT. Consider one of the opening lines of Revenge of the Sith "There are heroes on both sides." And then there is the fact that the Republic is bloated, corrupt, and run by a Sith Lord. There are certainly shades of gray in SW and alway will be.

Hell, look at the Mortis Trilogy in which Lucas sets the rules for the force. Light=good and dark=evil is greatly oversimplifying things.

Sure, Light-sided Sith may not make a ton of sense but that falls into the gameplay aspect of the, well, game.

Originally posted by General Kaliero
Star Wars is a fantasy, a fairy tale. It doesn't need good bad guys or jerk good guys. That's not what Star Wars is. It's simple and straight to the point.

Um... It has that. Han Solo and Anakin fall into the jerk good guys and Dooku arguably falls into the good bad guys camp.

Originally posted by ares834
Um... It has that. Han Solo and Anakin fall into the jerk good guys and Dooku arguably falls into the good bad guys camp.

Note that Anakin, well, fell. He actually kind of proves my point.

Dooku acts noble, but he's still a murderous and power-lusting traitor.

Originally posted by General Kaliero
Han is still a good guy at heart, as evidenced by returning to save Luke at the Death Star and his later joining the Rebellion completely.

And yet takes part in illegal activities and shoots first (don't bring up the SE bull shit here 😛 ).

Note that Anakin, well, fell.

Sure, yet he still is an example of a "jerk hero".

Dooku acts noble, but he's still a murderous and power-lusting traitor.

Which is not prevalent in the movies only the EU.

Originally posted by Peach
Star Wars is a fantasy in a fantasy universe where things are purely black and white.

I see ares has already pointed out the 'Heroes on both sides' part, so I won't bother.

Originally posted by Peach
It's meant to be that simple.

YouTube video

Simple. Quite.

Originally posted by General Kaliero
The movies are the most valid view of the Force, so yeah.

The movies barely mention the Force beyond midi-chlorians and aggression = bad. Nor are the movies the sole valid viewpoint on the mythos. Frankly, you don't seem to care much at all for the EU anyway, so so I dunno why you care so much if this game 'betrays' SW.

Originally posted by General Kaliero
Before they actually revealed anything, I honestly was hoping for a role-playing element that wouldn't have to lean on the flawed "Be a self-sacrificing altruistic idiot, a thieving murderous petty megalomaniac, or entirely devoid of personality," and instead offer roleplaying where you choose your side up front, and then play the nuances of each side. For example, a Sith who could solve a situation by murdering everyone involved, or helping out for a high fee, or subtly manipulating everyone so that he came out ahead with some money and some extra accessories for the effort. That game I would buy in an instant, because that level of roleplay would be something truly unique and genre-defining.

I'm confused. I thought you wanted Star Wars to be simple. And now you're saying it should be genre-defining? Surely people don't play SW games for deep role-playing, its all about fighting bad guys.

Originally posted by General Kaliero
Star Wars is a fantasy, a fairy tale. It doesn't need good bad guys or jerk good guys. That's not what Star Wars is. It's simple and straight to the point.

Obviously they'll always be a market for those stories. But if you think that Star Wars should never try to be deep, then I disagree. Give me complex and thought-provoking over simple and cliche any day of the week.

I wouldn't really classify Anakin as a hero.

And how is Dooku being murderous and power-hungry not prevalent in the movies? It most certainly is.

Originally posted by ares834
And yet takes part in illegal activities and shoots first (don't bring up the SE bull shit here 😛 ).

Sure, yet he still is an example of a "jerk hero".

Which is not prevalent in the movies only the EU.

Anakin proves that heroes who act like "jerks" (I'd say enraged murdering is a bit more than "jerk," personally) don't stay heroes.

No, I think Dooku being a traitor to the Jedi, lusting after power by being Sith, and killing people are still clearly in the movies.

To Nephthys:

The example I gave is still in the area of being simple, in that evil is simply evil, and good is simply good.

I love complex and thought-provoking morality. That sort of thing is my favorite part of, say, Gundam, or Game of Thrones. But it's not in the spirit of the Star Wars movies.

I respectfully submit that there is moral ambiguity/complexity to be found within the films. Perhaps not to the degrees found within certain anime {hate that stuff} or Martin's novels {haven't read 'em}, but present just the same.

Originally posted by General Kaliero
The Rebellion was "illegal" too. Illegality isn't a bad guy thing when the legal government is an evil Empire.

Except in Han's case he was working for a known villian, Jabba the Hutt.

Anakin proves that heroes who act like "jerks" (I'd say enraged murdering is a bit more than "jerk," personally) don't stay heroes.

Well true. But I would say that if you play a dark-side Jedi who ends up doing things for an increase in power rather than helping the galaxy you aren't really a hero either.

No, I think Dooku being a traitor to the Jedi, lusting after power by being Sith, and killing people are still clearly in the movies.

And yet these are not neccesarily evil within the scope of the movies. And from a purely movie standpoint, I can't recall any time Dooku lusted after power.