John Mclane vs the Joker

Originally posted by Robtard
You people are funny.

Scheming this, Scheming that nonsense. Joker has a building with hostages, he isn't trying to pull what he did in the TDK, so your Scheming fantasies are irrelevant here, read what the trhead starter stipulated. John is undetected in the building and he's hunting the Joker and his men. If anything, the Joker would underestimate John once he found out some cop was inside, just like Hans Gruber and end up getting shot in the head.

That bit about "the has Joker dogs!" is especially moronic. Unlike Batman, John has a gun(s) and he wouldn't hesitate to shoot the dogs and the Joker dead. While we do know that the Joker, being the Joker has a flare for dramatics before he kills people, it's just what he tends to do.

The Joker never "beat up" Batman, he got a few hits in with the help of his dogs and ended up being tossed out the ****ing window for his antics, he certainly didn't win that fight.

2. Really? Or he sicks the dogs, and while John is shooting the dogs, Joker shoots John. Joker had a flare for the dramatic with Batman. To Joker though, Mclane is just another cop. Joker doesn't wast time with cops, he just kills them.

3. After the dogs were taken out, Joker held his own with Batman, sure, he had a pipe, but he was fighting fvcking Batman, who is a much better fighter than John, he handles armed thugs with guns easily.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
The Joker didn't nearly get owned, or whatever that is. And besides, I never claimed McClane isn't a better shot than the Joker; just that with the insignificant distance between them, being an 'uber shot' won't effin' matter, considering that John is supposedly inside the building butchering his henchmen; if he succeeds (which is doubtful), the Joker will know that he isn't some punk. He hides and then jumps him. Do you really think he's just gonna shoot the dogs and the the Joker like it's nothing? Really, he isn't that fast, and that's more than enough time for the Joker to shoot him, knife him, or do whatever sick sh!t he does.

As far as I can remember, the Joker initially attacked Batman with the dogs. Batman is on the ground, beaten (badly) beaten by the dogs and the Joker. He knocks them off of him, and proceeds to throw the Joker away; the Joker subsequently punches him in the face, pummels him, and pins him down. If it hadn't been for the fact that the Joker didn't want to kill Batman, or if he wasn't too busy waiting for the 'fireforks', Batman's throat could have easily been slit, or he could have been alternatively shot. That belief that Batman owned him or beat him is ridiculous.

And as far as I can remember, even after his dogs were incapacitated, the Joker beat up Batman with Batman getting many hits in; he certainly 'spiritually won' the fight despite not actually wanting to kill Batman (then again, Batman didn't wanna kill him, either...). And how the hell does it matter that he was 'prepared specifically' for Batman? Does it adapt his H2H skills?

Sorry, McClane doesn't stand a chance unless he encounters the Joker on a random street and they go into a shootout, or John snipes him.

Why are your arguments always biased on the Joker automatically getting the upper-hand via hiding, jumping or cleverly springing like a cheetah in some fashion? John has a gun, why would he want to get as close as possible to shoot him? Bullets go long distances; that's the purpose of a gun. To think he would get within 10-15 feet of the Joker before shooting is just nonsense.

Now the Joker "spiritually won" the hand-2-hand fight? What the **** does that mean?

Joker and his dog temporarily overpowered Batman and got a few hits in, in the end, Batman kicked the dogs out of the way and tossed the Joker's ass out of a window. Win-win for Batman.

If you looked at it objectively, you'd see that the Joker would just get his ass shot by John.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
1. Yeah, Joker is more strategic and a better planner than Hans by far. Why not pull some things he did in TDK? Joker isn't Hans. John is undetected. Yeah, as in they don't know he is there at first. But like in Die Hard, they will learn of John's presence soon. Hans Gruber, despite being a "MASTAMIND!!!!!" was nowhere near as intelligent as you all try to play him off to be, he was not even half the schemer Joker was.

2. Really? Or he sicks the dogs, and while John is shooting the dogs, Joker shoots John. Joker had a flare for the dramatic with Batman. To Joker though, Mclane is just another cop. Joker doesn't wast time with cops, he just kills them.

3. After the dogs were taken out, Joker held his own with Batman, sure, he had a pipe, but he was fighting fvcking Batman, who is a much better fighter than John, he handles armed thugs with guns easily.

And the Joker is still trying to perform a little B&E. He's stealing, not trying some master scheme to bring a whole city to it's knees. Hans was a genius.

LoL, again with the dogs. This is how pathetic you "Joker pwns all" people are becoming. Dogs this or dogs that. BTW, the Joker likes to use a knife, he said it himself.

And he got his ass thrown out the window for all his badass-ness you think he has. The fight wasn't that long. Don't make it seem like it was some epic battle with Batman barely pulling through. BTW, John has a gun, no need to fight the Joker with his fist.

Originally posted by Robtard
WTF? You used "pwn" in a few threads above, but you're passively giving him shit for saying "owned", right.

Ehh... and your point is? How witty.

Originally posted by Robtard
Why are your arguments always biased on the Joker automatically getting the upper-hand via hiding, jumping or cleverly springing like a cheetah in some fashion?

Because the Joker is smart, and that's what he does all the bloody time.

Originally posted by Robtard
John has a gun, why would he want to get as close as possible to shoot him? Bullets go long distances; that's the purpose of a gun. To think he would get within 10-15 feet of the Joker before shooting is just nonsense.

How about the fact that as far as I can remember, the final scene (at least in number two) happened to be Batman facing the Joker in a relatively secluded room, and there is no F*CKIN' reason why he wouldn't grab a shotgun as soon as he realized people were getting killed downstairs, looked at the door, and as soon as John comes blasting in, the Joker, being prepared and ready, blasts off his head. Or, better yet, he simply lets the dogs loose and shoots him. Or hides, disguises himself in some form, and sticks a knife in John's head. But I guess that because John is a badass, he is automatically immune to bullets!

Sorry, that only applies to Chuck Norris.

Originally posted by Robtard
Now the Joker "spiritually won" the hand-2-hand fight? What the **** does that mean?

That he, for all intents and purposes, WON THE BLOODY FIGHT! He was reluctant to kill Batman, had him at his mercy, and still only lost thanks to shooting knives coming from Batman's gauntlet. I'm sure your precious McClane doesn't have that, now does he?

Originally posted by Robtard
Joker and his dog temporarily overpowered Batman and got a few hits in, in the end, Batman kicked the dogs out of the way and tossed the Joker's ass out of a window. Win-win for Batman.

Way to go for watching the movie and ignoring the fact that Joker beat Batman across the room, pinned him down, choked him, and could have easily killed him. Nah, all that can be easily ignored, because Batman kicked the Joker's ass, beat him bloody, and then punched him out of the window. DUH.

Originally posted by Robtard
If you looked at it objectively, you'd see that the Joker would just get his ass shot by John.

If you look at it objectively, you'd see the John isn't as intelligent, crafty, cunning, as good a knife user, as good an H2H combatant as the Joker. However, you simply refuse to admit that the Joker won't just stand there and wait to get shot, because maybe he... *gasps*... actually has some skills?

Btw, Jaxx, I'm debating with myself whether to go and watch TDK again. Is the second time watchin' better than the first?

For all those who need verification, the Batman-Joker fight went like this.

Joker lets the dog loose, while Batman is struggling with the dogs, Joker beats on him with a pipe. Batman knocks the dogs off, and punches the Joker away. While Bats is getting up, Joker knocks him into a net, where he procedes to punch him, and stabs him once. Bats knocks Joker away again, now, his radar is messed up, and he can't see anything clearly. Joker knocks him into the wood thing where Bats is restrained.

Then Batman gets tired of Jokers ranting, shoots him with those spike gauntlet thingy's and throws his ass off of the building

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Ehh... and your point is? How witty.

Because the Joker is smart, and that's what he does all the bloody time.

How about the fact that as far as I can remember, the final scene (at least in number two) happened to be Batman facing the Joker in a relatively secluded room, and there is no F*CKIN' reason why he wouldn't grab a shotgun as soon as he realized people were getting killed downstairs, looked at the door, and as soon as John comes blasting in, the Joker, being prepared and ready, blasts off his head. Or, better yet, he simply lets the dogs loose and shoots him. Or hides, disguises himself in some form, and sticks a knife in John's head. But I guess that because John is a badass, he is automatically immune to bullets!

Sorry, that only applies to Chuck Norris.

That he, for all intents and purposes, WON THE BLOODY FIGHT! He was reluctant to kill Batman, had him at his mercy, and still only lost thanks to shooting knives coming from Batman's gauntlet. I'm sure your precious McClane doesn't have that, now does he?

Way to go for watching the movie and ignoring the fact that Joker beat Batman across the room, pinned him down, choked him, and could have easily killed him. Nah, all that can be easily ignored, because Batman kicked the Joker's ass, beat him bloody, and then punched him out of the window. DUH.

If you look at it objectively, you'd see the John isn't as intelligent, crafty, cunning, as good a knife user, as good an H2H combatant as the Joker. However, you simply refuse to admit that the Joker won't just stand there and wait to get shot, because maybe he... *gasps*... actually has some skills?

The Joker hides, springs and jumps all the time? I doubt that.

John can be killed, he's just better at killing people than the Joker. He has a simple aim and shoot policy, doesn't bother with theatrics.

Na, you're just being silly, Joker didn't win the fight. His overall scheme worked, but he didn't win the fist fight. He even said something along the lines of not betting it all on a fist fight, because he knows he's no match in a physical confrontation.

Joker has major skills. But when it comes to Joker with dogs and knife verses John with a gun, the gun wins. You just have this chilld-like fantasy of the Joker dressing up like a nurse, hiding in a corner and jumping out like a rabid chipmunk onto John's back and stabbing him while John is apparently fighting two dogs.

Originally posted by Prime#
For all those who need verification, the Batman-Joker fight went like this.

Joker lets the dog loose, while Batman is struggling with the dogs, Joker beats on him with a pipe. Batman knocks the dogs off, and punches the Joker away. While Bats is getting up, Joker knocks him into a net, where he procedes to punch him, and stabs him once. Bats knocks Joker away again, now, his radar is messed up, and he can't see anything clearly. Joker knocks him into the wood thing where Bats is restrained.

Then Batman gets tired of Jokers ranting, shoots him with those spike gauntlet thingy's and throws his ass off of the building

But, but, but... the Joker "spiritually won" the fight!

Originally posted by Robtard
Well, point was that is was odd, you used "pwn", then question Prime# using "owned". Very odd.

You really hadn't grasped the meaning of humor, have you?

Originally posted by Robtard
The Joker hides, springs and jumps all the time? I doubt that.

He hides among other people, disguises himself, and gets sneak attacks plenty of times, yeah. Just two examples are the nurse scene and the attempted mayor assassination, where he disguised himself as a cop. Now... what would prevent him from doing the same against McClane? I suppose his aura of badassness will prevent the Joker from doing anything other than standing and waiting to get shot?

Originally posted by Robtard
John can be killed, he's just better at killing people than the Joker. He has a simple aim and shoot policy, doesn't bother with theatrics.

LOL. The Joker killed the well-protected commissioner, bombed the judge's car, shot LOADS of people (including his own henchmen), managed to be cunning enough in order to sneak into a major mobster's hideout and kill him in his own lair... do we really need to discuss who, overall, is the more effective killer? Shooting at people isn't he only way to kill 'em.

Originally posted by Robtard
Na, you're just being silly, Joker didn't win the fight. His overall scheme worked, but he didn't win the fist fight. He even said something along the lines of not betting it all on a fist fight, because he knows he's no match in a physical confrontation.

Yeah... err... you do know that it's because the Joker both didn't want to kill Batman and, therefore, a fistfight wouldn't matter? The fact that punching Batman to death wasn't his plan doesn't mean that he is not capable of doing it (I'm not saying he is, but he's certainly a match and a challenge for Batman, even on an individual basis).

Originally posted by Robtard
Joker has major skills. But when it comes to Joker with dogs and knife verses John with a gun, the gun wins. You just have this chilld-like fantasy of the Joker dressing up like a nurse, hiding in a corner and jumping out like a rabid chipmunk onto John's back and stabbing him while John is apparently fighting two dogs.

And, really, what would prevent the Joker from doing that, hmm? Or just stand there and as soon as John comes waltzing in, shoot him in the face? And besides, even you have to concede that the Joker will defeat him in a hand-to-hand fight.

And the fight; as far as I can remember, the Joker momentarily blinded Batman, and even before he blinded him, he was holding his own quite nicely. And the fact that without his cool gadgets, Batman was helpless and could have been easily killed doesn't count, does it?

And I might remind you that the Joker didn't blow Batman's head off or stick him with his knife kick. He WASN'T going all-out in that fight.

Originally posted by Robtard
But, but, but... the Joker "spiritually won" the fight!

Funny guy.

Sorry, didn't find your "joke" humorous.

Yes, I do understand the Joker uses disguises. You're avoiding the scenario the thread starter laid out though (because it benefits your silliness). The Joker is in the building and he's trying to break into a vault. Why in the **** would he bring various outfits with him, let alone two dogs? But okay.

When it comes to simply killing people, John is better. He simply shoots and kills, nice and easy. Now in grand schemes of killing people and theatrics, the Joker wins that hands down. This scenario isn't one of those fancy schemes though. It would be John vs the Joker and his thugs in a building.

You're still avoiding the fact that Batman kicked his dog's and his ass and you're assuming that the Joker could have killed him at any time and it simply isn't so. I believe Prime# laid the fight scene out scene per scene. Do you really think the Joker is a better combatant than Batman, or even close?

I never argued that the Joker would just stand there, I in fact argued that it would most likely come down to a gun battle, and John is far better at killing with guns, hence, he wins. You assume that John would somehow have to get within H2H range before he shoots and that the Joker would then disarm and kill him via knife or fist while wearing some master disguise. Which is just a silly scenario. That and the dogs you keep bringing in.

"Joker waits on the top floor of the building, with his dogs, staring at the elevator shaft"

"An 18 wheeler that John is driving then comes zooming through the roof of the building instantly crushing Joker and his dogs."

Originally posted by Robtard
Yes, I do understand the Joker uses disguises. You're avoiding the scenario the thread starter laid out though (because it benefits your silliness). The Joker is in the building and he's trying to break into a vault. Why in the **** would he bring various outfits with him, let alone two dogs? But okay.

I currently discussing the second situation, the TDK one. I won't get around to the first situation.

To answer you, it's because he might just know that people will be after him? It doesn't necessarily have to be McClane or whatnot. But he already displayed the ability to deceive people in very cunning manners. And if he hides, lets his dogs (which WERE there) distract McClaine, and subsequently blows his head up... how will McClane avoid that, eh?

Originally posted by Robtard
When it comes to simply killing people, John is better. He simply shoots and kills, nice and easy. Now in grand schemes of killing people and theatrics, the Joker wins that hands down. This scenario isn't one of those fancy schemes though. It would be John vs the Joker and his thugs in a building.

I wouldn't quite know about that. The Joker has killed many, many people with just guns and knives and whatnot; he has an entirely different style than John, obviously, but that doesn't make him the lesser killer. If anything, the Joker is an overall more effective killer than McClane.

And besides, it's not like McClane outclasses the Joker in every aspect of personal combat, too. The Joker is craftier, more brutal, and a more effective H2H fighter than McClane; being a better shot won't help, because they aren't far away from each other and the Joker can, most definetly, hit him from that range. Not to mention that he will be prepared and ready for McClane while he won't know what he's stepping into (which, of course, you casually ignore).

Originally posted by Robtard
You're still avoiding the fact that Batman kicked his dog's and his ass and you're assuming that the Joker could have killed him at any time and it simply isn't so. I believe Prime# laid the fight scene out scene per scene. Do you really think the Joker is a better combatant than Batman, or even close?

Better? Nah. As good? Quite possibly, at least in TDK. He has more weapons, isn't afraid to use guns, and can also hold his own against Batman in a hand-to-hand, close-up battle. He did do that; even before he UBWR BLINDED HIM!!!11!!, he was holding his own nicely and got multiple kicks in. And let me remind you that he didn't use his guns, explosives, or knife kick, and, as he said later, he didn't want to kill Batman.

And besides, if you want H2H skills, the Joker quite obviously easily beat up a pissed off cop in the interrogation room. Cops are well-trained in hand to hand and fighting techniques, and do you really think Gordon- a smart, good cop- is stupid enough to leave an incompetent policeman? And the Joker obviously took control of him quite easily, with only his hand to hand skills. He also easily disabled a mobster with his hands and a pencil. He is a better hand-to-hand combatant than Johnny.

Originally posted by Robtard
I never argued that the Joker would just stand there, I in fact argued that it would most likely come down to a gun battle, and John is far better at killing with guns, hence, he wins. You assume that John would somehow have to get within H2H range before he shoots and that the Joker would then disarm and kill him via knife or fist while wearing some master disguise. Which is just a silly scenario. That and the dogs you keep bringing in.

No... what would make you think the Joker is so incompetent he would need to get very close in order to shoot someone, especially if he just hides and blasts McClane apart the moment he enters the room. The only situation where a full-blown gun battle may takes place is if they face each other on some street. Unless the Joker closes in on him and puts a smile on his face.

And besides- if, say, they do get hand-to-hand- what would prevent the Joker from gutting him? And what would prevent the Joker from disguising himself or hiding? That's right. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!

Originally posted by Prime#
"Joker waits on the top floor of the building, with his dogs, staring at the elevator shaft"

"An 18 wheeler that John is driving then comes zooming through the roof of the building instantly crushing Joker and his dogs."

Not sure if it was intentional, but it seems you're quoting me; I never said that nonsense.

Master Crimzon,

We'll argue the John or Joker winning round and round. I'm tired of that, as either is going to convince the other. You think the Joker will disguise himself, hide, jump about and use dogs to win. I think it will come down to a gun fight and John has the upper-hand there, so he'd win. Let's just disagree.

But what in the world are you thinking that the Joker is as good as Batman in hand-to-hand fighting? All he did was take two down guys, one a thug and the other a fat cop, which he took by surprise. Now, I'm not saying he isn't skilled, but there is no proof that he is an expert combatant. Seems like more TDK induced madness.

I can definetly agree to the whole 'let's stop arguing' notion, without baiting you.

But, otherwise said, he took out the thug by surprise, not the fat cop, considering that said cop tried to beat the crap out of the Joker (and failed). There is no proof that he isn't an excellent hand-to-hand combatant? Please. Sure, he doesn't use purely his hand-to-hand skills, he also uses knifes (he is, apparently, a skilled user, considering he prefers knifes to guns). He also held his own, despite what you might say, individually, without any sort of assistance against Batman. Without using the knife inside his boot, a gun, or trying to kill Batman- if the difference between them was as large as you think, Batman would simply have swept him away easily. He didn't.

And nah. I love TDK, and the Joker's depiction deserves to go down in history with names like Darth Vader and Hannibal Lecter, but I still think logically about these stuff. Oh, and I like Batman himself, too.

And by the way, I've read that some comic or whatnot explains the Joker's fighting prowess due to the fact that his insanity gives him adrenaline rushes, which gives him sort-of inhuman strength and reflexes. Just throwing it out here.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
And by the way, I've read that some comic or whatnot explains the Joker's fighting prowess due to the fact that his insanity gives him adrenaline rushes, which gives him sort-of inhuman strength and reflexes. Just throwing it out here.

Joker is no match for Batman in H2H.

He got a few hits in when Batman fought three rabid dogs. And then lucked out and could use Batman's equipment malfunctioning, to "beat" him.

Master Crimzon,

There actually isn't proof that he is an excellent hand-2-hand combatant. Good, maybe/yes. Excellent, no.

He twisted the thugs hand behind his back and slammed his head into the table. That's good, the thug was underestimating him, but still a good move. The cop, well, we don't know exactly what happened, most likely the same. He mind-****ed the cop into attacking and he beat him, using his anger against him. Again, good, but no indication of true excellence.

As far as the knife thing goes, what was an impressive feat he did with a knife? Can you name one?

Three dogs where on Batman and his eye-gear malfunctioned, it's the only reason he got a few hits in. There is nothing in that fight scene that proves the Joker is equal (or close) to Batman in fighting, nothing as fact.

Originally posted by Röland
Not to get in the middle of your debate, but you can't bring in anything outside of the movies, unless the thread starter states that it is fair game.

Yeah, I know. I just randomly said it, as some sorta reference.

And as for the whole "OMGZ JOKER SUX NEXT TO BATMAN!!!11!!" stance is totally absurd, considering you haven't refuted the following points:

1. After the dogs attacked him, the Joker fought equally with Batman. This is before Batman's eyegear malfunctioned.

2. Even after Batman was only momentarily blinded, he STILL couldn't get the upper hand again, which would not make any sort of sense if he was truly 'not even close' to Batman, or absolutely no match for him.

3. Joker didn't knife his throat, kicked him using the knife from his boot, or used anything otherwise potentially lethal. He didn't want to KILL Batman, for the last time; he will have no such reservations fighting against John McClane.

Try to refute this, now. Or support your claim of how Batman is so much better than the Joker with evidence, because as far as we know, the fight could've gone either way if Batman wasn't using the whole weird eye thingy. When did Batman ever show himself to be far better than the Joker in H2H?

And you do know that the whole 'twisting arm behind the back' move- particularly when facing men as physically strong as you are and, in the case of the cop, have had training in these sorts of techniques- implies that the Joker at least knows some actual hand-to-hand moves that aren't just his crazy freestyle.

No, he didn't fight equally. He surprised Batman (dogs, broken gear and whatnot) and temporarily got the upper-hand, key word TEMPORARILY. Just stop this nonsense.

You want proof that Batman is far superior in Hand-2-hand to the Joker? Okay:

1) He kicked the Joker's ass
2) He defeated scores of Ninja along with Raj Al Ghul (could the Joker do this?)
3) He defeats multiple armed thugs and gangsters repeatedly (Could the Joker do this?)

There, it's been refuted yet again.

I said the Joker is probably/maybe a good combatant based on what little we see. I disagree that he defeated Batman in the fight, "spiritually", or otherwise.

Oh, that bit about him being an excellent knife fighter. Do you have a scene where he shows us this?

He kicked the Joker's ass... when? In the interrogation scene, when the Joker was in the middle of a f*cking police department and wasn't interested in doing anything to Batman himself? Oh, yeah, that scene.

Now, an actual scene when they fought, please, and Batman destroyed the Joker?

As for the 'scores of ninja'? He beat up... 6, 7 or so ninja with great difficulty, and subsequently proceeded to defeat Ra's Al Ghul in the same manner that he beat the Joker; they got cocky or didn't want to kill him when they had the upper hand, so Batman took the opportunity and defeated him. Not saying that Ra's Al Ghul is necessarily better- but Batman isn't, either.

You know why I like Batman? He uses stealth, deception, fear, and martial arts to fight his opponents. He doesn't waltz in front of them and beats them up; he stealthily attacks them and uses his bullet-proof suit to avoid damage to him. So, there goes your points about Batman defeating scores of thugs with just his H2H skills.

And, if Batman was as vastly superior as you say, he would have easily subdued the Joker after the dogs were down; so it happens that he didn't. And even after being only momentarily blinded, the Joker still pressed his advantage and pinned him down. If Batman was vastly superior, he would've escaped or stopped the Joker from beating him up. And, for god's sake, the JOKER DIDN'T TRY TO KILL HIM!

As for the comment about him being an excellent knife user? Well, according to Jaxx, he used a knife against Batman. Otherwise, there isn't any specific place displaying the fact that he is an excellent knife user- however, he is shown to carry dozens of knifes on his body and, by his own admission, prefers them to guns, logically meaning that he at least spent some time training his skills with a knife.

That doesn't matter, though, as John isn't half the hand-to-hand fighter Batman is.