Star Forge empowered Revan vs Exar Kun

Originally posted by Tangible God
Doesn't work like that man. Speculation and "maybes" have no place here, despite the opinion of some. Of course there is a boost, but we've got no statistics (which we need). And your last statement doesn't apply to the versus forum, we work with what's presented, not with what's needed to give one side an advantage over the other based on nothing (despite the opinions of some).

Again, we can't conclude this fight fairly as Revan's power is already at unknown level, and we have absolutely no idea what the Star Forge's presence in this would do either him or Kun. This can't be done.

Ok, I am new but I must say that from what I have read within the many threads there is much speculation and not facts. Actually how could you have a vs. between two powerful force users that have never fought and there be no maybes or speculation?

One thing we can agree on, Revan and Exar Kun are two powerful force users who were the top dogs during their time.

Two – To say that Exar Kun would receive the same benefits as Revan force wise while on the Star Forge is pure speculation which we won’t use. This brings us to point three.

Three – Something no one has yet addressed is that Revan does have a home court advantage in knowing his surrounding and the area he is in. Exar Kun does not have this advantage. A big plus for Revan.

Four – Saber skills. Without going into the same details that have been stated in other threads, simply we do know that Revan used his light saber when fighting and was never bested. If you say otherwise you must prove so.

Now you have two skilled saber users, one who may be more skilled Exar Kun (which is a maybe) and Revan who has home court advantage (a fact).

Five - Elite Hunter if you are actually stating that Malak was not afraid of Revan when they were searching for the Star Forge then you have to prove so. As for you statement concerning the confrontation on the Leviathan, Malak knew he was facing a Revan that did not have his full memories or abilities.

Remember it was stated that Malak grudgingly took the role of apprentice, not because Markos Ragnos arose from the dead and declared one lord and the other apprentice. Malak was force to be apprentice because he could not defeat Revan.

Six – Lastly let us put everything together:
Saber Skills – Exar Kun the more skilled saber user (speculation and unproven)

Force powers – Could be equal or one could have the slight advantage. (Exar Kun’s amulet could be the advantage)

Surroundings – Advantage goes to Revan (Big Plus)

Advantages –
Exar Kun might be over confident in his powers when confronting Revan presenting an advantage for Revan who knows his surroundings.

Revan knowing his surroundings give him the element of surprise.

Exar Kun also has the element of surprise which is his amulet.

Considering these factors, I believe Revan would come out victorious.

Originally posted by Kotor3

Two – To say that Exar Kun would receive the same benefits as Revan force wise while on the Star Forge is pure speculation which we won’t use. This brings us to point three.

The same speculation about the benefits Revan would receive from the SF. The only benefit he WOULD receive is his knowledge of it, whereas Kun lacks that knowledge.

[quote]Four – Saber skills. Without going into the same details that have been stated in other threads, simply we do know that Revan used his light saber when fighting and was never bested. If you say otherwise you must prove so.

Now you have two skilled saber users, one who may be more skilled Exar Kun (which is a maybe) and Revan who has home court advantage (a fact).

Six – Lastly let us put everything together:
Saber Skills – Exar Kun the more skilled saber user (speculation and unproven)

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
The same speculation about the benefits Revan would receive from the SF. The only benefit he WOULD receive is his knowledge of it, whereas Kun lacks that knowledge.

Except his saber skills are an unknown. He WAS the best in his era but you can't really quantify that without some concrete evidence.

Revan's "home court" is irrelevant since we don't know the power it gives him.

It's more than speculation. Exar Kun was a powerhouse and Revan was an unknown so logically we'd give this to Exar Kun.

Dark Sexy I have read many of your arguments in other threads and have agreed with many of them. It is nice to argue against you statements.

Ok I agree until we know further Exar Kun wins in a saber fight. But please explain why Revan is an unknown. What is it that people need to know in other to realize he was a skilled saber user?

Besides Kreia and even she with force used three sabers, I do not know one powerful force user who was not very skilled with a light saber. Since we do not know the difference in power levels between Revan and Malak, we can logically state that Malak could not defeat Revan in all areas.

Explain how home court advantage is irrelevant. I already disregarded the power that the Star Forge would give as speculation thus we are not using that as a reference. However, Revan does know the layout of the Star Forge and will use that to his advantage. It is not like they will be fighting in a straight line, there will be movement and surroundings will definitely come into play.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Two – To say that Exar Kun would receive the same benefits as Revan force wise while on the Star Forge is pure speculation which we won’t use. This brings us to point three.

No it isn't, I already explained that there is nothing to suggest to that Kun would not receive the same normal dark side boost as Darth Revan. The only possible special benefit that Darth Revan could get is if he knows the same secrets as shown during the battle of the star forge which there is no proof that Darth Revan would know because he didn't want to be attached to it.

Four – Saber skills. Without going into the same details that have been stated in other threads, simply we do know that Revan used his light saber when fighting and was never bested. If you say otherwise you must prove so.

Remember it was stated that Malak grudgingly took the role of apprentice, not because Markos Ragnos arose from the dead and declared one lord and the other apprentice. Malak was force to be apprentice because he could not defeat Revan.

Yes at the time Malak was weaker than Revan which has no bearings here because Kun is also stronger than Malak.

Considering these factors, I believe Revan would come out victorious.

Almost forgot to address this.

Five - Elite Hunter if you are actually stating that Malak was not afraid of Revan when they were searching for the Star Forge then you have to prove so. As for you statement concerning the confrontation on the Leviathan, Malak knew he was facing a Revan that did not have his full memories or abilities.

Where is the proof that pre sith apprentice Malak was shaking in his boots about pre DLOTS Revan? It is up to you to prove that Malak was ever afraid to face Revan 1v1 especially when it mattered in kotor 1. I have addressed every situation in which they had a confrontation and addressed it (which you haven't exactly replied to) especially their confrontation on the star forge. You made the claim that Malak was afraid, now provide some evidence. And just for the record Revan was not exactly a slouch by the time of the Leviathan confrontation.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Ok I agree until we know further Exar Kun wins in a saber fight. But please explain why Revan is an unknown. What is it that people need to know in other to realize he was a skilled saber user?

The reason why Revan is an unknown is because we don't any details(was he always winning his duels, did he almost die in duel, that sort of thing) of his duels only the outcome, and we don't what exact saber style he preferred to use or how many he even knew. We do know he was the top dog of his era but so was Kun,Bane,Luke,etc. so that alone doesn't put in the top tier of saber duelist in star wars.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
No it isn't, I already explained that there is nothing to suggest to that Kun would not receive the same normal dark side boost as Darth Revan. The only possible special benefit that Darth Revan could get is if he knows the same secrets as shown during the battle of the star forge which there is no proof that Darth Revan would know because he didn't want to be attached to it.

And Kun was top dog in his own time, with a unique saber and style that Revan would be unfamiliar with.

Yes at the time Malak was weaker than Revan which has no bearings here because Kun is also stronger than Malak.

Darth Revan has even fewer combat related feats that would put him over Kun. If this was post kotor Revan than I might say Revan would win but Darth Revan has not beaten(that we know of) a talented jedi/sith in his time prior to his memory wipe which is a big blow to the argument that Darth Revan could be Exar Kun.

Almost forgot to address this.

Where is the proof that pre sith apprentice Malak was shaking in his boots about pre DLOTS Revan? It is up to you to prove that Malak was ever afraid to face Revan 1v1 especially when it mattered in kotor 1. I have addressed every situation in which they had a confrontation and addressed it (which you haven't exactly replied to) especially their confrontation on the star forge. You made the claim that Malak was afraid, now provide some evidence. And just for the record Revan was not exactly a slouch by the time of the Leviathan confrontation.

What exactly have I not addressed? I accepted certain statements from you so do not make a reply to them and I believe I have already shown that I have excepted some of them.

First thing, it is speculation to say Exar Kun will receive the same benefits since we do not know if Revan had Malak’s knowledge or not. Even though you made a good logical statement as to why he would not have the same knowledge it is not a fact. So leave it alone. I have already stated that I will do the same.

I have accepted your statement that they will receive the same normal boost. No argument there.

I accepted Exar Kun to be the better saber duelist until further info is presented for Revan.

Elite Hunter: Darth Revan has even fewer combat related feats that would put him over Kun. If this was post kotor Revan than I might say Revan would win but Darth Revan has not beaten(that we know of) a talented jedi/sith in his time prior to his memory wipe which is a big blow to the argument that Darth Revan could be Exar Kun.

Ok I can accept that there is not much recorded details concerning Revan’s battles prior to his memory loss. But we do know he won them.

Elite what actually are you trying to get at in arguing that Malak did not fear Revan? Do you want a statement that says Malak feared Revan. That would make no sense since Revan was his best friend.

If you notice my sentence which you already agreed to is the fact that Malak was weaker than Revan. Even though he did not want he had to take the place of apprentice because he knew he could not defeat Revan. There are many times of fear, this is a fear built upon wisdom of knowing you are not up to par in defeating your opponent.

The fact is Malak did not feel he could defeat Revan until he was empowered by the Star Forge. If your argument against that statement is the fight on the Leviathan then you need to prove that Revan at that time process the same level of power as he did before he lost his memory. According to my knowledge that is when Malak help Revan to gain some of his memory.

From this thread I see that basically it seems that everyone is saying that the Star Forge would present no help or advantages for Revan. Thus Revan would lose to a more powerful user.

I do not agree that the Star Forge has no advantages for Revan but since I do not have more proof at the moment I will except Exar Kun as the winner for this round. I will try to gather more info on the Star Forge and it use.

Originally posted by Tangible God
A Star-Forge empowered Revan is completely unknown, it can't be done accurately. However, assuming it would give a dramatic boost to his already powerful Force abilities... yeah, there's still no way to tell.

Exactly, just a unknown battle.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Ok I can accept that there is not much recorded details concerning Revan’s battles prior to his memory loss. But we do know he won them.

Elite what actually are you trying to get at in arguing that Malak did not fear Revan? Do you want a statement that says Malak feared Revan. That would make no sense since Revan was his best friend.

If you notice my sentence which you already agreed to is the fact that Malak was weaker than Revan. Even though he did not want he had to take the place of apprentice because he knew he could not defeat Revan. There are many times of fear, this is a fear built upon wisdom of knowing you are not up to par in defeating your opponent.

I'm arguing that at no point did Malak feared to face Revan in a duel(most notably during the events of kotor 1) as you originally said here:

Originally posted by Kotor3
As for the duels, we do know that Malak was fearful of Revan as every other sith and Jedi was and would not face Revan in a duel.

The fact is Malak did not feel he could defeat Revan until he was empowered by the Star Forge. If your argument against that statement is the fight on the Leviathan then you need to prove that Revan at that time process the same level of power as he did before he lost his memory. According to my knowledge that is when Malak help Revan to gain some of his memory.

Basically Malak walked into a 3v1 situation with the idea of facing Revan who was out for revenge, it is not a stretch to say that Malak was expecting Revan to be as powerful as he was before the betrayal.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
The two known 1v1 victories to my knowledge are over the echani general Yusanis and Mandalore the Ultimate.

I'm arguing that at no point did Malak feared to face Revan in a duel(most notably during the events of kotor 1) as you originally said here:

My argument against that is that Malak has no clue how powerful Revan is hell, Malak thought that Revan knew who he was he says here:
Besides I had to see if for myself if it was true. Even now I can hardly believe my eyes.....tell me,why did the jedi spare you? Is it vengeance you seek at this reunion?

Basically Malak walked into a 3v1 situation with the idea of facing Revan who was out for revenge, it is not a stretch to say that Malak was expecting Revan to be as powerful as he was before the betrayal.

Elite Hunter: I'm arguing that at no point did Malak feared to face Revan in a duel(most notably during the events of kotor 1) as you originally said here:

Elite if that is the case why was the statement made “Malak grudgingly took the role of apprentice”. We have no recorded of Malak every challenging Revan before he lost his memory.

Why did Malak not fight Revan to see who would be dark lord.
“Both were strong in the force Revan undoubtedly the stronger” “Malak grudgingly took the role of apprentice”.

Elite Hunter: My argument against that is that Malak has no clue how powerful Revan is hell, Malak thought that Revan knew who he was he says here:
Besides I had to see if for myself if it was true. Even now I can hardly believe my eyes.....tell me,why did the jedi spare you? Is it vengeance you seek at this reunion?

Elite the quote shows that Malak could not believe Revan was alive. He also stated to Revan when helping him remember, “you still do not remember let me help you”. My quote may not be word for word however Malak only shock was that Revan was alive.

He knew Revan did not fully remember who he was. If Revan did Malak might have taken a different action but Malak was clear before engaging Revan in Battle that he did not remember who he was.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Elite Hunter: I'm arguing that at no point did Malak feared to face Revan in a duel(most notably during the events of kotor 1) as you originally said here:

Elite if that is the case why was the statement made “Malak grudgingly took the role of apprentice”. We have no recorded of Malak every challenging Revan before he lost his memory.

Why did Malak not fight Revan to see who would be dark lord.
“Both were strong in the force Revan undoubtedly the stronger” “Malak grudgingly took the role of apprentice”.

Elite Hunter: My argument against that is that Malak has no clue how powerful Revan is hell, Malak thought that Revan knew who he was he says here:
Besides I had to see if for myself if it was true. Even now I can hardly believe my eyes.....tell me,why did the jedi spare you? Is it vengeance you seek at this reunion?

Elite the quote shows that Malak could not believe Revan was alive. He also stated to Revan when helping him remember, “you still do not remember let me help you”. My quote may not be word for word however Malak only shock was that Revan was alive.

He knew Revan did not fully remember who he was. If Revan did Malak might have taken a different action but Malak was clear before engaging Revan in Battle that he did not remember who he was.

You just helped my case. By saying that he was surprise to see him alive, also proves that he has no idea that Revan had to be retrained in the force by the jedi so Malak could logically assume that Revan was still as powerful as his former self(and Malak originally thought Revan had his memories as well) yet he had the balls to walk into a 3v1, saw one of them was Revan who one would logically assume was out for revenge and still be more than willingly to fight them.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Elite Hunter: I'm arguing that at no point did Malak feared to face Revan in a duel(most notably during the events of kotor 1) as you originally said here:

Elite if that is the case why was the statement made “Malak grudgingly took the role of apprentice”. We have no recorded of Malak every challenging Revan before he lost his memory.

Why did Malak not fight Revan to see who would be dark lord.
“Both were strong in the force Revan undoubtedly the stronger” “Malak grudgingly took the role of apprentice”.

Elite Hunter: My argument against that is that Malak has no clue how powerful Revan is hell, Malak thought that Revan knew who he was he says here:
Besides I had to see if for myself if it was true. Even now I can hardly believe my eyes.....tell me,why did the jedi spare you? Is it vengeance you seek at this reunion?

Elite the quote shows that Malak could not believe Revan was alive. He also stated to Revan when helping him remember, “you still do not remember let me help you”. My quote may not be word for word however Malak only shock was that Revan was alive.

He knew Revan did not fully remember who he was. If Revan did Malak might have taken a different action but Malak was clear before engaging Revan in Battle that he did not remember who he was.

We know WHAT Revan did, but not exactly HOW he did it. A home field advantage is one thing, but since when does that qualify for Win. We don't KNOW how Revan handled the Forge, other than that he distanced himself from its core powers. There is also absolutely nothing to prove that Kun couldn't tap into the Forge and absolutely nothing to prove that he could. That gives us nothing to work with here, absolutely zip. If this were Malak vs. Kun than that's a bit different.

We've got no statistics and no precedents concerning Revan's prowess with the Force other than that "he was great." That's all Ab Fab, but unfortunately, Kun was also "great." But he at least we can discern.

Gonna have to concede this one, this can't be done fairly or even accurately.

P.S. Just because Malak "grudgingly" assumed the role of apprentice, doesn't make him equal or even near Revan's power. Hell, due to lack of sources, we don't know if he ever was (just because he says he was doesn't make it so).

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
All that quote proves is the obvious: Malak was weaker than Revan at the time. And even then Malak was mad to be the apprentice, so he obviously thought he have been the master. We can speculate on this all day long, I can easily say that Malak didn't want to try and kill Revan earlier because he need Revan's military genius to make the war against the republic go by faster. And it was a smart move for Malak to betray the way he did because he could have killed 2 birds (Revan and Bastila) with one stone.

You just helped my case. By saying that he was surprise to see him alive, also proves that he has no idea that Revan had to be retrained in the force by the jedi so Malak could logically assume that Revan was still as powerful as his former self(and Malak originally thought Revan had his memories as well) yet he had the balls to walk into a 3v1, saw one of them was Revan who one would logically assume was out for revenge and still be more than willingly to fight them.

Wow for someone who agrees about not putting a lot of speculation you are sure doing so.

I am not speculating, it is a fact Malak did not challenge Revan before he lost his memory. Until more info is given concerning Revan’s past.

You are the one speculating a whole lot. I do not even know where you are getting this from.

Malak wanted to be master not thought he could. The way he betrayed Revan is proof enough you can speculate all you want as to his reasons.

I am not going to keep answering these speculative responses because this is no longer relevant to this thread.

According to you Malak never fear his Master Revan would fight him any day of the week and perhaps had a master plan as to why he accepted to be apprentice. Simply put you are wrong. I have already provided logical proof that for some reason you keep twisting around.

The whole point of every bring Malak into this is that he is inferior to Darth Revan. If a Star Forge empowered Malak surpassed Darth Revan’s power than how much more would it do for Darth Revan. Since we have taken out of the argument that Revan is empowered by the Star Forge none thing concerning Malak is relevant anymore.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Wow for someone who agrees about not putting a lot of speculation you are sure doing so.

I am not speculating, it is a fact Malak did not challenge Revan before he lost his memory. Until more info is given concerning Revan’s past.

You are the one speculating a whole lot. I do not even know where you are getting this from.

Malak wanted to be master not thought he could. The way he betrayed Revan is proof enough you can speculate all you want as to his reasons.

I am not going to keep answering these speculative responses because this is no longer relevant to this thread.

According to you Malak never fear his Master Revan would fight him any day of the week and perhaps had a master plan as to why he accepted to be apprentice. Simply put you are wrong. I have already provided logical proof that for some reason you keep twisting around.

Uh, no I haven't twisted anything around, YOU were the one speculating first so I took a page from your playbook especially since we know jackshit about Darth Revan combat capabilites. Malak made the smart move by betraying Revan from afar ( Darth Sion agrees with this as I already provided the quote) and it was Revan's fault for not suspecting a betrayal when it happened. And by betraying him the way he did, Malak insured, that he would survive and not run the risk of the being beaten which is similar to Darth Sidious killing his master in his sleep to become DLOTS.

I already provided the details as to why Malak was not afraid on the Leviathan but I'll post the facts regarding the duel one last time and I'' leave it at that.

Fact 1. Malak assumed he killed Revan and then heard during the destruction of Taris that Revan was still alive.

Fact 2. There is zero evidence that suggests that Malak knew of Revan's mind being reprogrammed and but way more importantly there is nothing to suggest that Malak knew that Revan needed to be retrained in the force by the jedi and thus his strength in the force.

Fact 3. Based on the above fact Malak has no clue of Revan's "power level" now(on the Leviathan prior to the fight) so it is logical for Malak to assume he thought it remained the same as it was before the betrayal.

Fact 4. Again based on the fact above Malak stills walks towards Revan, Bastilla and Carth with a numerical disadvantage and having no clue where Revan's "power level" is which common senses tells us is very risky/dangerous move on Malak's part.

The whole point of every bring Malak into this is that he is inferior to Darth Revan. If a Star Forge empowered Malak surpassed Darth Revan’s power than how much more would it do for Darth Revan. Since we have taken out of the argument that Revan is empowered by the Star Forge none thing concerning Malak is relevant anymore.

Malak once clearly said that a Star Forge empowered Revan would be unstoppable.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Malak once clearly said that a Star Forge empowered Revan would be unstoppable.

When did he say that? And that means jackshit because Revan didn't use the star forge the same way Malak did so you have no clue what he is going to do. Which is one of the reasons why this thread can't be done. and that alone doesn't put him above Kun btw.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Malak once clearly said that a Star Forge empowered Revan would be unstoppable.

I forgot that the Star Forge imbued Malak with "omniscient narrator" powers.

Where did he say that legend? The only thing i recall mr bald headed jawless man is him saying "]you are now stronger than you ever were as the dark lord".

He said something along the lines of, 'All you ever saw was a gaint factory, all you ever imagined was an infinate fleet rolling forth to crush the republic. Perhaps if you had not been so Foolish then you might of become truly unstoppable' in relation to the 'true powers' of the Star Forge. After you kill him once but before you do it twice.

The line was indeed said after Malak drained one jedi. The exact line is You continue to amaze me Revan. If only you were the one to uncover the true power of the star forge you might have truly become invincible Then Malak says Revan "only ever saw an infinite fleet blah blah blah your blind and stupid."

Oh and Exodus you don't kill him until some point after the cutscene described above.

And as Gideon has said, just because Malak says it doesn't make it true.

Whoops.

And just because Malak isn't omniscient doesn't mean that it should be thrown out of the window. What he means is that No-one at the time could have stopped her (don't say it, I know), which is basically true.