ha, I'm going to spam some youtube stuff:
From 2007
Georgia/Russia tensions
Georgia authoritarian crackdown
from 2008
April: Russia shoots down unmanned Georgian plane
from aug 5th, talks about the initial Georgian assault on South Ossetia
ya, again, sorry to spam, but they are 2 min clips and i'd rather not just parrot them/have to site them anyways.
Originally posted by RocasAtoll
Georgia has already withdrawn, but Russia has not withdraw from South Ossetia. Kinda telling, don't you think?
There is no need for Russia to withdraw, they are there defending the Sovreignty of the Ossetian (Russian) people.
Originally posted by inimalist
thats a dodge though, isn't it?like, i mean, President Jesus of Russia has just been informed by his defense advisor that Odessia has been attacked by Georgian aggressors, is his response really "make those ****ers pay"?
Indeed, if I was President I would certainly not have given orders to fire on civilian targets, however I note a slight irony here, what happened to separation of Church and State? I can't allow my religious views to shape what I think about Abortion but I can about War? I can sympathise with how the Russian Government feels- this is not a premeditated assault it is a protection of their people.
Originally posted by inimalist
but if the desire is quickest victory, then even you must believe the Russians are acting with restraint.They could turn Georgia into Chernobyl part 2 and there would never be conflict between Georgian authorities and Odessia ever again, quick, easy, victory.
However, obviously you don't believe that and I feel you should realize that it is rather like putting your foot in your mouth to defend the targeting of civilian cites by Russian forces.
Sometimes the easiest thing isn't the right thing 😉
Indeed and when the Diktat in Georgia nexts decides to commit genocide do we just, push them out of the territory they are cleansing, stop and leave them to rebuild and pick on someone else?
No, a firm hard slap in the face is what Georgia needs, its devastating whats happening to the people- but they were benefiting from their Governments actions, they have too accept the consequences as well.
Originally posted by inimalist
I would do everything I could to end the conflict with the lowest loss of lives. A situation that devolves to war is lost in the first place.
To nuke or not to nuke then.
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
There is no need for Russia to withdraw, they are there defending the Sovreignty of the Ossetian (Russian) people.
Originally posted by RocasAtoll
South Osettia is NOT Russian land. It is an independent region of both Georgia and Russia. If you need a comparison, it's Kosovo. Neither have a right to be there.
The Russian Forces were called in to assist by the Osettian militias who were being attacked by the Georgians (who broke a ceasefire).
Fact, Russian Citizens were attacked by a foreign power, Russia moved in to protect its Citizens.
They are not the only country in the world who would do that...
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Indeed, if I was President I would certainly not have given orders to fire on civilian targets, however I note a slight irony here, what happened to separation of Church and State? I can't allow my religious views to shape what I think about Abortion but I can about War? I can sympathise with how the Russian Government feels- this is not a premeditated assault it is a protection of their people.
haha, thats actually a really good point
I was just giving you the gears about that, I'm hardly in a position to say what Jesus would do in any situation, nor to make a comment on someone's relation to Christ.
I do agree with the protection thing. However, their actions have not been exclusively defensive. A good offense may be the best defense in football, but it is inexcusable in war. For someone to even try and wage "moral" military action, even in defense, requires the highest standard of care for human life. From the media sources I trust, I don't see Russia as acting in that way. (Nor are the Georgians for that matter, but I think everyone agrees on that).
Its funny, every conflict in the world is because some major power is either messing it up or has yet to intervene. Maybe new ideas are necessary... and im ranting...
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Indeed and when the Diktat in Georgia nexts decides to commit genocide do we just, push them out of the territory they are cleansing, stop and leave them to rebuild and pick on someone else?
we have evidence of Genocide?
Nations clamp down on break away regions constantly, I think it does little to the conversation to call it genocide without due cause.
Say what you will, but I am in many ways an isolationist. Regardless of the help one thinks they can bring, I don't see foreign powers as being capable of stopping local problems. I could totally be wrong here, and maybe Eastern Europe has seen more benefits from the international community than africa and the arab world, so ya, maybe Russia pulls it off and I eat my hat.
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
No, a firm hard slap in the face is what Georgia needs, its devastating whats happening to the people- but they were benefiting from their Governments actions, they have too accept the consequences as well.
I refuse to blame the victim, especially in a case like this. Even those who support their government do not deserve death and a loss of their livelihood.
I'm obviously not proposing no reply. However, do you really see a strong Russian reaction here as a force for peace and stability in the lives of common Georgians?
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
To nuke or not to nuke then.
nuke the whales
Originally posted by RocasAtoll
Fact, Russia has no need to be there now. Georgia is gone and done. If they were just protecting Ossetia and upholding its sovereignty, they would be withdrawing.
Yes ofcourse, because thats what you do when you protect someone, you go in then leave...
NO
You go in, you wait until the home nation is able to put up a defense of its own.
Georgia broke a ceasefire once, they can do it again.
Besides, why shouldn't they stay there? They have every right.
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Georgia broke a ceasefire once, they can do it again.Besides, why shouldn't they stay there? They have every right.
Do you then believe that Israel has the right to occupy Palestine?
(and no, I'm not insinuating that the situations are very comparable, though on this point they are kind of close)
Originally posted by inimalist
Do you then believe that Israel has the [b]right to occupy Palestine?(and no, I'm not insinuating that the situations are very comparable, though on this point they are kind of close) [/B]
See, thats funny because I was thinking about that myself.
If Palestine had a majority of Israeli citizens who were being attacked by a foreign power...then yes they would have a right to enter and protect those citizens.
Originally posted by inimalist
haha, thats actually a really good pointI was just giving you the gears about that, I'm hardly in a position to say what Jesus would do in any situation, nor to make a comment on someone's relation to Christ.
We'll let Jesus decide on what he would do 😂
Originally posted by inimalist
I do agree with the protection thing. However, their actions have not been exclusively defensive. A good offense may be the best defense in football, but it is inexcusable in war. For someone to even try and wage "moral" military action, even in defense, requires the highest standard of care for human life. From the media sources I trust, I don't see Russia as acting in that way. (Nor are the Georgians for that matter, but I think everyone agrees on that).Its funny, every conflict in the world is because some major power is either messing it up or has yet to intervene. Maybe new ideas are necessary... and im ranting...
Maybe we need to get past the ideas of nationalities...
Originally posted by inimalist
we have evidence of Genocide?
Originally posted by inimalist
Nations clamp down on break away regions constantly, I think it does little to the conversation to call it genocide without due cause.
Originally posted by inimalist
Say what you will, but I am in many ways an isolationist. Regardless of the help one thinks they can bring, I don't see foreign powers as being capable of stopping local problems. I could totally be wrong here, and maybe Eastern Europe has seen more benefits from the international community than africa and the arab world, so ya, maybe Russia pulls it off and I eat my hat.
Originally posted by inimalist
I refuse to blame the victim, especially in a case like this. Even those who support their government do not deserve death and a loss of their livelihood.
No they do not, but that is war.
Originally posted by inimalist
I'm obviously not proposing [b]no reply. However, do you really see a strong Russian reaction here as a force for peace and stability in the lives of common Georgians?[/B]
Who cares about the common Georgians?
Originally posted by inimalist
nuke the whales
The BBC has just reported that the US Government (who allowed the US Army to train Georgian forces) told Georgia that they were practically part of Nato, thus they could expect to act with the full backing of Nato- thus they felt (in the BBC's words) like they could act with impunity. However, no Nato country has come to, or wants to come to, Georgia's aid.
The French Foreign minister was just on, he seemed a little drunk, he says both countries need to totally withdraw and we need to put in control...he wasn't very clear but then, he was speaking English which is obviously not his first language.
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
See, thats funny because I was thinking about that myself.If Palestine had a majority of Israeli citizens who were being attacked by a foreign power...then yes they would have a right to enter and protect those citizens.
lol, interesting, I don't think I disagree...
and not wanting to turn the thread into Israel/Palestine, I say word 🙂
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Maybe we need to get past the ideas of nationalities...
I'm with it
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
I wonder how many politicians asked that during World War II...
ok, I concede that, unfortunately I won't accept something without verification.
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Thats what the President of Russia called it...on the news they were saying that Georgian forces were flooding basements filled with Russians..
oh 🙁
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
It is local for Russia, because it is her citizens who are being attacked.
I don't necessarily believe that is true. They are technically an independent territory of Georgia, and I don't think that they would necessarily like to be part of Russia after this.
I'm not sure whether I'm sold on the idea that just because Russia has supplied them with passports they are allowed to use military force to protect them. If they universally granted citizenship to all people of the world would they then be allowed to use military force anywhere?
(yes, they did ask for Russia's help, so maybe that is all moot)
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
No they do not, but that is war.
lol, and some day when I grow up I will understand what that means
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Who cares about the common Georgians?
ya, ef em
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
The BBC has just reported that the US Government (who allowed the US Army to train Georgian forces) told Georgia that they were practically part of Nato, thus they could expect to act with the full backing of Nato- thus they felt (in the BBC's words) like they could act with impunity. However, no Nato country has come to, or wants to come to, Georgia's aid.The French Foreign minister was just on, he seemed a little drunk, he says both countries need to totally withdraw and we need to put in control...he wasn't very clear but then, he was speaking English which is obviously not his first language.
WTF IS SO SPECIAL ABOUT THIS GOD DAMMED PIECE OF LAND!
there are no resources, its of no military significance, why the hell are the world's superpowers fighting each other over it?
/emo
I just hope this conflict could be resolve soon. Just very unfortunate for the people living there....
And just to lighten up things around here...
This is how we Americans poke fun @ the Russians back in the 80s.
5CaMUfxVJVQ&feature=related
Man...we have come a long way and now we portray the Russians as mobsters and etc...
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Yes ofcourse, because thats what you do when you protect someone, you go in then leave...NO
You go in, you wait until the home nation is able to put up a defense of its own.
Georgia broke a ceasefire once, they can do it again.
Besides, why shouldn't they stay there? They have every right.
Georgia can't break another considering they now found out Russia won't have to deal with NATO if Georgia goes insane again.
They have no right to be there anymore. It is not Russia's land.
So basically Georgia sees these two countries as part of Georgia, are these actual legal internationally excepted "states of Georgia" or are there a lot of gray areas here?
Russia has lots of its citizens living there, a majority even.
But th key thing imo are the military resources available, I can´t fathom why Georgia acted in such a way. Russia isn´t know for its tolerance and
willingness to waffle about at the UN for months before it acts. Maybe it expected help from other countries.
Espcially when you consider these stats.