From my understanding, Nihilus' drain isn't the same. I don't think he has to exert any energy to drain them, that is a part of his nature as Kreia explains to the Exile.
As well, Visas seems to imply the same mentioning "life dies... sacrificing itself to his hunger". Is it stated in the game that there's a connection between Nihilus' drain and the Sith assassins?
Originally posted by Advent
Obsidian, what do you think since you just finished a run-through of the game?
Sorry, I didnt really pay much attention about those kind of things. The only time I focused was during dialogues. When it came to combat, I often read something on the side, listened to music or used the internet to stuff meanwhile 😛
I have just cleared the game with one light side male and one dark side female. From what I've heard, I should get some new dialogues this time drool
Originally posted by Advent
From my understanding, Nihilus' drain isn't the same. I don't think he has to exert any energy to drain them, that is a part of his nature as Kreia explains to the Exile.As well, Visas seems to imply the same mentioning "life dies... [b]sacrificing
itself to his hunger". Is it stated in the game that there's a connection between Nihilus' drain and the Sith assassins? [/B]
Like they say, Nihilus is a wound in the force.
Originally posted by Advent
From my understanding, Nihilus' drain isn't the same. I don't think he has to exert any energy to drain them, that is a part of his nature as Kreia explains to the Exile.As well, Visas seems to imply the same mentioning "life dies... [b]sacrificing
itself to his hunger". Is it stated in the game that there's a connection between Nihilus' drain and the Sith assassins? [/B]
According to Kreia: "The sect of assassins that chase you feed on the Force... what he does is simply the pinnacle of what they could achieve, in time."
What exactly was Nihilus going to use to not only pull The Ravager out of that gravity well, but also hold it together? Another capital ship? Because, you know, that would totally be able to survive getting within range of the Mass Shadows Generator without itself getting crushed to pieces. Tractor beam? Yeah, I don't think so. That also wouldn't be some "measure of his power," would it?
As far as his feat on Katarr, he destroys the entire Miraluka population as well as the numerous Jedi who were at the conclave there...with his voice! By speaking! Did he say a paragraph long Sith chant, or simply, "Shazam!"? Does it freakin' matter?
As for not destroying Mandalore, his force drain only works on Force sensitives (if I'm not mistaken). And how is that at all relevant?
Originally posted by Obsidian FuryWho cares? Um it debunks any theories that he lifted the ship by himself, or if he even lifted it at all.Who cares if he lifted it trough a ritual, or if he had machine help, or manpower help?
Originally posted by Obsidian FuryOnce again, tobin is fallible, he did NOT witness the feat being performed, how do you know he didn't make it up? How do you know he is telling the truth?The Ravager left Malachor V thanks to Nihilus. Tobin said that he tore it from the mass shadows along with his fleet. Said that it is a measure of his power. Then if you find it a reliable source or not, I do not really care. It's the closest to details I can come. We already know he is extremely powerful with the force, so it is not unlikely that he used it to lift the Ravager.
And why would he waste time lifting up useless and junkie ships which made up his "fleet"? Incase you were wondering, he did NOT pull a fleet out of the well either as the loading screen states he merely used the ravager to escape malachor V. If he just wants to escape, why bother lifting other broken ships? And he isn't stupid enough to use badly damaged warships to build his fleet.
Once again, prove that he pulled out his ship with the force or simply concede, find concrete evidence.
Originally posted by Obsidian FuryBut out of curiosity , what indicates he used the force at all? Which reliable source states that he did?
But out of curiosity, what machines would he have used? Or what ritual? In what way did he put his manpower to use?
Originally posted by Obsidian FuryIt still doesn't show he did it with "utter ease". Tell me one thing, if he could wipe out planets with "utter ease" please justfity why he couldn't wipe out non sensitives like mandalore with "utter ease" when he was clearly the weak link in the ravager duel seeing he is non force sensitive and does not have the abilities of a jedi.
Star Wars: Tales. Read it 😉
EDIT sorry for the double post, forgot that i could edit my last post.
Originally posted by Enyalus
What exactly was Nihilus going to use to not only pull The Ravager out of that gravity well, but also hold it together? Another capital ship? Because, you know, that would totally be able to survive getting within range of the Mass Shadows Generator without itself getting crushed to pieces. Tractor beam? Yeah, I don't think so. That also wouldn't be some "measure of his power," would it?As far as his feat on Katarr, he destroys the entire Miraluka population as well as the numerous Jedi who were at the conclave there...with his voice! By speaking! Did he say a paragraph long Sith chant, or simply, "Shazam!"? Does it freakin' matter?
As for not destroying Mandalore, his force drain only works on Force sensitives (if I'm not mistaken). And how is that at all relevant?
He killed people by speaking? LOL then why didn't mandalore and the exile end up dead then when he was rambling his garbage?
And your clearly wrong about nihilus "drain attack". It kills any individual which has a connection to the force meaning all living things in star wars.
Besides it isn't just some regular force drain, kreia stated that he severs/destroys his victims force bond which kills them instantly(as kreia stated all life cannot exist without the force) and then feeds on the death that he has just caused.
Oh yes and talk about him holding his ship together with tk, if he was conciously doing so, why didn't the ship break apart when he was killed? Why was the ship still intact?
If its ok can you list down the quote where it stated that he held his ship together? Thank you.
Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
He killed people by speaking? LOL then why didn't mandalore and the exile end up dead then when he was rambling his garbage?
It's likely not meant to be taken in a literal context; rather Visas is trying to convey the ease of which he can execute his power.
The Exile's nature is that she, like Nihilus, is a wound in the Force. We saw what happened when he attempted to sap her with his Force drain. He was weakened, just like if you choose to sacrifice Visas to further devitalize him due to the Force bond.
And your clearly wrong about nihilus "drain attack". It kills any individual which has a connection to the force meaning all living things in star wars.
Only when he focuses his hunger; otherwise he just gradually depletes their essence.
Oh yes and talk about him holding his ship together with tk, if he was conciously doing so, why didn't the ship break apart when he was killed? Why was the ship still intact?
Why would the ship crumble just because Nihilus died? I see no reason why it should. He was only holding it together insomuch that it would've been impossible to function properly otherwise. Canderous mentions as much and Tobin pretty much confirms it.
If its ok can you list down the quote where it stated that he held his ship together? Thank you.
Tobin says,
"He holds it together. And he keeps us all alive, just enough, like rotworms in a dying beast."
Then you have Mandalore mentioning that,
"[The Ravager] is barely holding itself together. The structural damage should have destroyed it long ago."
And before you mention anything regarding their fallibility, there's no reason to assume they were misinformed/making shit up as there was nothing to gain from doing so. Not to mention, Tobin was the one on the freakin' ship; it's safe to say he knew well enough about the situation considering his dialogue and position.
Originally posted by AdventI know that, but some people(or fanboys) take it so literally and they want to pass it off as a feat of nihilus in debates hence i had to ask them that question.
It's likely not meant to be taken in a literal context; rather Visas is trying to convey the ease of which he can execute his power.The Exile's nature is that she, like Nihilus, is a wound in the Force. We saw what happened when he attempted to sap her with his Force drain. He was weakened, just like if you choose to sacrifice Visas to further devitalize him due to the Force bond.
Originally posted by AdventWell i just wanted to correct what the other member claimed of nihilus drain but other than that i do acknowledge that he gradually depletes those around him(his crew).
Only when he focuses his hunger; otherwise he just gradually depletes their essence.
Originally posted by AdventFair enough. I thought that the ship was in pieces hence why he needed to hold it in the first place, most people seem to imply that hence i was being skeptical and asked such questions if it were true.
Why would the ship crumble just because Nihilus died? I see no reason why it should. He was only holding it together insomuch that it would've been impossible to function properly otherwise. Canderous mentions as much and Tobin pretty much confirms it.
Originally posted by AdventFirstly, the game depicts Nihilus as casually stunning the Exile and co. and having them at his mercy. He was even at a disadvantage then insofar that he hadn't been appeased his hunger (which he was planning on doing by destroying Telos).
Then when he does attempt to drain the Exile, it backlashes on him since she's a wound in the Force, thus weakening him. Finally, he had to fend off three powerful combatants. Even so, Visas stated that he was still "too powerful". And there's also a distinct possibility that Visas sacrificed herself to further inflict damage due to their Force bond.
It's complete rubbish to mention his defeat at the hands of the Exile as it had extenuating circumstances surrounding it.
Let's not be ridiculous now. You're clearly degrading Nihilus' feats to an extreme measure.
I don't even think he tried to sever Traya's Force connection; see my previous posts. In the case that it was nothing more than a Force push, then it speaks volumes for his power.
How would "having all day" to pull the Ravager out of the gravity well mean anything? Do you think he pulled it inch by inch? LOL. It's safe to assume he just ripped it out with his vast Force power when you consider he was capable of holding the same ship together so it could function properly even through hyperspace.
Also, I'm curious as to where Mace's defenses would be for a technique capable of consuming entire worlds. You've yet to offer any valid proof Mace can resist its effects.
None of these put him on Nihilus' level. He managed to cause a rockslide, which in the manner you're describing it makes it seem like he didn't do much.
His defeat of Sidious was in a lightsaber battle only; same with redirecting Sidious' lightning back unto him. Nihilus' abilities aren't tangible so they can't be blocked with a saber.
The notion that ROTS Sidious is "leagues upon leagues Nihilus' superior" is hardly true. He is the most powerful, yes, but not in all regards. Not that it has any relevance since Mace only won due his skill with a blade.
Because he hasn't demonstrated the power to do such? I could ask the same about Nihilus, who's telekinetic powers far outweigh Mace's.
Ever heard of offering up a factual basis to assume Mace magically knows all/anything about Nihilus? The default position would be skepticism here - Mace wasn't exactly a historian.
Still, while Nihilus' draining ability is his most devastating power, he's not lacking in the TK department (which encompasses powers like choke, push, etc.), so what can Windu actually do? [/B]
alright alright you had your say.
My turn
1) your fist argument falls due to its contingency on gameplay. if i wear a force mask, nilius aint stunning nothing. who knows what the exile wore.
2) your second argument fails because
A) nilius was trying to kill all 3 of then and failed to drain each one EVEN THE NON_FORCE SENSITIVE MANDATORY MANDALORE. so if he failed to do that, what state would he be in to just instantly drain mace if he is so weak and hungry as you say?
B) the "possibility of visas sacrificing herself" is irrelevant because she lived through the battle and did not die. she said he was too powerful because she was intimidated. notice how after the exile told her to pull herself together she got back up and kept fighting and won
3) let me help you understand my point about nilihus having all day to rip the ravager from slip space.
when it is spoken of nilihus being powerful enough to rip the ravager out nothing is said about him doing it INSTANTLY therefore we dont know HOW LONG it took him to do it. he could have been there a weelk just doing nothing but pushing force TK into his efforts (which migh explain the hunger lol) but my point is we cannot assume he did it instantly. he very well could have done it little by little, in which case mace, yoda, or anakin could do the same thing if they were calm enough,patient enough and knew what they were doing. so its not too big a deal.
4) let me squash 2 of the arguments stated by you with one stone. if you watch CW mace with a mere wave of his hand threw superbattle droids through one another and crushed many other droids, so he WOULD be able to just take ship parts and beat nilihus on the head with them much like vader did to luke in ESB then when nilihus falls he cuts him down.
5) YOU are the one that stated that mace doesnt know of nilihus therefore the burden of proof is on YOU to show me that he didnt know of nilihus. my point was that he could have known about them
6) siddious is stated as the most powerful sith, so its all around, there is no one area where he is stated as being lower than other sith
7) for all these reasons i say mace wins
I'll let Advent deal with the rest of your post, MoC...however:
With regards to your Sidious argument, simply because a being is the most powerful does not mean that they are the most powerful in every single way for every single type of attack. That's a horrible fallacy. I've just come from the Comics vs. section so I'll use the example of this: Superman is more powerful than Flash. Ergo, Superman is faster than Flash. Faulty logic and inherently untrue.
Until Sidious shows he can kill an entire planet's population using his Force Drain technique, Nihilus' skill in that particular technique is greater than Sidious'. Know why? 'Cause he's got the feat to back it up.
Originally posted by Man of Christ
alright alright you had your say.My turn
1) your fist argument falls due to its contingency on gameplay. if i wear a force mask, nilius aint stunning nothing. who knows what the exile wore.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OV8iniopJ3U
^ No, it's quite clearly a canon event as it's represented via cutscene that cannot be altered by gameplay. I find it rather comical that in the above video the Exile also appears to be wearing a Force Mask, LOL!
2) your second argument fails becauseA) nilius was trying to kill all 3 of then and failed to drain each one EVEN THE NON_FORCE SENSITIVE MANDATORY MANDALORE.
It's never shown that Nihilus actually tries to drain Mandalore, so please enough with the nonsense that “he failed to drain him”. By the time the fight began, he was doubly weakened and had to fend off the Exile and Visas on top of Mandalore himself.
so if he failed to do that, what state would he be in to just instantly drain mace if he is so weak and hungry as you say?
In versus bouts, we're assuming the characters are at their peak conditionally. Nihilus hadn't fed upon Telos prior to the Exile confronting him, which was why he was at a disadvantage to begin with. Such a hinderance wouldn't apply here.
B) the "possibility of visas sacrificing herself" is irrelevant because she lived through the battle and did not die. she said he was too powerful because she was intimidated. notice how after the exile told her to pull herself together she got back up and kept fighting and won
Why would she be so intimated if he weren't “too powerful”? Clearly he must've held an advantage prior in the duel. Nevertheless, how does this make my argument fail? The point wasn't so much about Visas, rather the duel. It undeniably had extenuating circumstances, which would render its validity null in the discussion.
3) let me help you understand my point about nilihus having all day to rip the ravager from slip space.when it is spoken of nilihus being powerful enough to rip the ravager out nothing is said about him doing it INSTANTLY therefore we dont know HOW LONG it took him to do it. he could have been there a weelk just doing nothing but pushing force TK into his efforts (which migh explain the hunger lol) but my point is we cannot assume he did it instantly. he very well could have done it little by little, in which case mace, yoda, or anakin could do the same thing if they were calm enough,patient enough and knew what they were doing. so its not too big a deal.
I had already gathered as much. I'd submit it's not really a stretch to say he instantly did it from what we've seen and know of his powers. Indeed, I see it as more likely he just did it rather than him meditating there for days on end.
If we accepted that he lifted it “little by little” that means he was capable of maintaining it in a constant telekinetic stasis throughout the entire duration it would've took him to hoist it off Malachor. Otherwise, it would just constantly be falling back down to the surface. Which is equally as impressive as him instantly doing it, if not more so.
You stand to lose in either situation. And I definitely don't see Yoda, Mace or Anakin being capable of doing the same even if you gave them decades to sit there and concentrate. Much less keeping the starship operable for hyperspace travel. If they could, prove up.
4) let me squash 2 of the arguments stated by you with one stone. if you watch CW mace with a mere wave of his hand threw superbattle droids through one another and crushed many other droids,
Are you talking about the recently released movie or the cartoon series? If the latter, Leland Chee has stated that they exaggerate the extent of the Jedi's power in an attempt to appeal to their target audience of children. So he might not actually be able to do that normally.
so he WOULD be able to just take ship parts and beat nilihus on the head with them much like vader did to luke in ESB then when nilihus falls he cuts him down.
I take it you misunderstood my point, he hasn't demonstrated the power to be able to overcome Nihilus with that type of stuff (Force-users do have defenses, if you weren't aware of that).
In any case, Mace doesn't have the advantage in the Force by any means as I've shown above. Nihilus overpowers him drastically in that regard.
5) YOU are the one that stated that mace doesnt know of nilihus therefore the burden of proof is on YOU to show me that he didnt know of nilihus. my point was that he could have known about them
I pretty much explained what I meant when I said that the default position is skepticism in this case; since it is. Mace wasn't a historian and there's no reason to assume he gathered any intimate knowledge of Nihilus.
6) siddious is stated as the most powerful sith, so its all around, there is no one area where he is stated as being lower than other sith
Enyalus hit the nail on the head exactly; see his post for elaboration.
7) for all these reasons i say mace wins
...You only gave two reasons as to why he would win. One being he can handle some droids, ergo he can beat the shit out of Nihilus with random items. All despite the fact Nihilus assuredly has considerable defenses to protect him from something like that.
The other regards a battle that had circumstances surrounding the reason it turned out like it did. Yeah, see my post(s): it's not looking good for Windu.
Originally posted by EnyalusUm palpatines mere presence on byss(without doing jack) turned a "once fertile world into one of the most powerful dark side sites in the galaxy" though it did take years simply because palpatine was not executing the technique in a manner that it would drain everything instantly.Until Sidious shows he can kill an entire planet's population using his Force Drain technique, Nihilus' skill in that particular technique is greater than Sidious'. Know why? 'Cause he's got the feat to back it up.
And palpatines force storms has been stated(ask gideon for the source, i took it from him) to be able to rip a planets mass apart(the entire surface) as well as annihilating entire star fleets with ease.
Palpatine as of DE is for sure ahead of nihilus though nihilus is quite the power house. All he needs is some damn back story to develop his character and i'm sure he would be much more likable.
Originally posted by Advent
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OV8iniopJ3U^ No, it's quite clearly a canon event as it's represented via cutscene that cannot be altered by gameplay. I find it rather comical that in the above video the Exile also appears to be wearing a Force Mask, LOL!
what makes you think he would have a gander of a time stunning mace? mace is not some catfish padawan, im sure he knows how to put up a block to that.
Originally posted by AdventIt's never shown that Nihilus actually tries to drain Mandalore, so please enough with the nonsense that “he failed to drain him”. By the time the fight began, he was doubly weakened and had to fend off the Exile and Visas on top of Mandalore himself.
[/B]
isnt he the most in need to drain when he is the hungriest? then why not absorb 3 snacks that come before him? its because as you say he was overwhelmed, surely mace could put up an even more overwhelming challenge
Originally posted by AdventIn versus bouts, we're assuming the characters are at their peak conditionally. Nihilus hadn't fed upon Telos prior to the Exile confronting him, which was why he was at a disadvantage to begin with. Such a hinderance wouldn't apply here.
Why would she be so intimated if he weren't “too powerful”? Clearly he must've held an advantage prior in the duel. Nevertheless, how does this make my argument fail? The point wasn't so much about Visas, rather the duel. It undeniably had extenuating circumstances, which would render its validity null in the discussion.
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1) the contradiction to the first part is that if nilihus is at his peak then he is not hungry therefore doesnt need to do force drain, and probably wont since he didnt even drain visas or mandalore when he WAS hungry, so i doubt if he is full he will do it to mace when he ISNT hungry
2) you gave no proof that visas did any act of self sacrifice exploiting her bond with nilihus, that was my point, clearly she won in the duel so it must have been fear that made her say he is too powerful. if i play through the game and only add points to her strength she can easily gut him, so i fail to see an advantage nilihus had.
Originally posted by AdventI had already gathered as much. I'd submit it's not really a stretch to say he instantly did it from what we've seen and know of his powers. Indeed, I see it as more likely he just did it rather than him meditating there for days on end.
If we accepted that he lifted it “little by little” that means he was capable of maintaining it in a constant telekinetic stasis throughout the entire duration it would've took him to hoist it off Malachor. Otherwise, it would just constantly be falling back down to the surface. Which is equally as impressive as him instantly doing it, if not more so.
[/B]
1) find me a valid quote or PROOF that he did it instantly and i will agree but untill then my argument still stands which is that we dont know HOW long it took. because we dont know how long it took you CANNOT assume he did it instantly.
Originally posted by AdventYou stand to lose in either situation. And I definitely don't see Yoda, Mace or Anakin being capable of doing the same even if you gave them decades to sit there and concentrate. Much less keeping the starship operable for hyperspace travel. If they could, prove up.
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since we know next to nothing about how nilihus did it, it is unsafe to assume only he could do it.
Originally posted by AdventAre you talking about the recently released movie or the cartoon series? If the latter, Leland Chee has stated that they exaggerate the extent of the Jedi's power in an attempt to appeal to their target audience of children. So he might not actually be able to do that normally.
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exaggerated or no, it is still cannon, GL saw it and made no negative remarks to my knowlege which meant he too accepted it as cannon
Originally posted by AdventI take it you misunderstood my point, he hasn't demonstrated the power to be able to overcome Nihilus with that type of stuff (Force-users do have defenses, if you weren't aware of that).
In any case, Mace doesn't have the advantage in the Force by any means as I've shown above. Nihilus overpowers him drastically in that regard.
[/B]
i know that force users have defenses im not wet behind the ears to star wars i also know that mace is more than capable of using telekenetic attacks with objects to distract nilihus then deliver the killing blow. if this sith loses in a straight up sword duel to the exile who is not on par with mace or siddious, then he of course would go down to someone on mace or siddious's level.
and dont go talking about how many force powers the exile has because if i go through and only select powers like battle meditation, force heal, etc... then he doesnt have any offensive powers therefore would get cut, its all about what powers the exile is KNOWN to have not speculated to have.
Originally posted by Advent
I pretty much explained what I meant when I said that the default position is skepticism in this case; since it is. Mace wasn't a historian and there's no reason to assume he gathered any intimate knowledge of Nihilus.[/B]
you dont become number 2 in the jedi order just by saber skills, if that were the case then to some anoon boondara would outrank yoda. my point being that i think the qualifications for rank in the council include saberskills force knowlege and history . (surely the jedi take classes). all this to say you CANNOT assume he is ignorant of nilihus historian or not.
Originally posted by Advent
Enyalus hit the nail on the head exactly; see his post for elaboration.[/B]
1) he is stated as the most powerful sith ever, not just the best swordsman, not just the fastest, etc,,,but the most powerful ever so it isnt narrowed down so we assume its all areas in which he is more powerful. unless you can find sith being more powerful than palpatine.
2) and enylus's point is flawed in that the flash RUNS but superman FLIES im sure if you put the flash in the air he aint going faster than the speed of light. and for superman to fly backwards around the planet to go back in time he had to be going uber fast, maybe faster than the flash but thats another forum
Originally posted by Advent
...You only gave two reasons as to why he would win. One being he can handle some droids, ergo he can beat the shit out of Nihilus with random items. All despite the fact Nihilus assuredly has considerable defenses to protect him from something like that.The other regards a battle that had circumstances surrounding the reason it turned out like it did. Yeah, see my post(s): it's not looking good for Windu. [/B]
1) my point is mace has the neccesary telekenisis to do so. when it comes to the force mace has more micro vision than nilihus, nilihus specifies in macro vision, so mace could easily throw objects at him and batter him.
2) not to be sarcastic but i thank you for taking the time to respond to my long post it shows that you care
3) mace has shown in deforming siddious which was by force and not with sword that he is considerably above nilihus
Um palpatines mere presence on byss(without doing jack) turned a "once fertile world into one of the most powerful dark side sites in the galaxy" though it did take years simply because palpatine was not executing the technique in a manner that it would drain everything instantly.And palpatines force storms has been stated(ask gideon for the source, i took it from him) to be able to rip a planets mass apart(the entire surface) as well as annihilating entire star fleets with ease.
Schwarzenegger: None of what you mention involved Force Drain.
isnt he the most in need to drain when he is the hungriest? then why not absorb 3 snacks that come before him? its because as you say he was overwhelmed, surely mace could put up an even more overwhelming challenge
MoC: Advent, myself, and probably others have already given you reasons for this. It isn't our fault if you decide to keep asking the same question. Firstly, he didn't want to drain or kill Visas Marr, and was deeply hurt by her betrayal. Secondly, the Jedi Exile is a wound in the force, meaning he cannot drain her, and when he tried it backfired and weakened him. Lastly, why would he try to drain Mandalore, a non-force user? As it's been stated numerous times by numerous sources (Unseen, Unheard rings a bell), force-sensitive places and beings draw him. Draining Mandalore would have done nothing for him or his appetite.
1) find me a valid quote or PROOF that he did it instantly and i will agree but untill then my argument still stands which is that we dont know HOW long it took. because we dont know how long it took you CANNOT assume he did it instantly.
As Advent said, it doesn't matter if he did it instantly, which is the most probable, or gradually after days or weeks. It's an incredible feat either way to mantain such vast TK concentration for that long, with that much weight being supported (the Ravager is 1,200 meters in length), while he is being crushed by the Mass Shadows generator-enhanced gravity powerful enough to rip capital ships from their orbits around Malachor and crash them into the planet's surface.
since we know next to nothing about how nilihus did it, it is unsafe to assume only he could do it.
Actually, since it's acknowledged that he did do it, and no one else has pulled off a similar feat, that would be the only safe assumption. Unless you can prove that others, based on TK feats, can. I'll be waiting.
i know that force users have defenses im not wet behind the ears to star wars i also know that mace is more than capable of using telekenetic attacks with objects to distract nilihus then deliver the killing blow. if this sith loses in a straight up sword duel to the exile who is not on par with mace or siddious, then he of course would go down to someone on mace or siddious's level.
Nihilus, as has already been stated and you keep ignoring, was weakened. One, he was hungry and hadn't fed on Telos yet. Two, he was crippled from the backlash of trying to drain another wound in the force (Exile). And three, Visas and Nihilus shared a force bond, which is consciously attempted to sever, thus further weakening him. THAT is why he was beaten in saber combat.
Furthermore, Nihilus has at least three of the greatest Force feats in the history of Star Wars:
1. Causing a Supernova - Naga Shadow and...Freedon Nadd (?)
2. Force Storm capable of wiping out an entire fleet - Darth Sidious
3. Wiping out an entire planet's population using Force Drain - Darth Nihilus
4. Sensing every Force-user in the galaxy simultaneously - Darth Nihilus & Luke Skywalker (possibly others?)
5. Using the Force to hold his battlecruiser together and pull it out of the gravity well of Malachor V - Darth Nihilus
Based on sheer Force feats, what makes you think Mace is going to be able to telekinetically throw anything at Nihilus capable of distracting him? Prove it.
1) he is stated as the most powerful sith ever, not just the best swordsman, not just the fastest, etc,,,but the most powerful ever so it isnt narrowed down so we assume its all areas in which he is more powerful. unless you can find sith being more powerful than palpatine.
No. YOU assume it's in every area, which is a no-limits fallacy. Fallacy means a false conclusion, in case you need a vocabulary lesson in addition to a grammar lesson.
I'm not even going to bother with the Supes/Flash comparison. I'm going to cite one more example: Which is more powerful - An F-22 jet fighter or a B-2 Spirit bomber? F-22 is much faster, has a more powerful engine, far better manueverability, more projectiles, et cetera. It is all around better and more powerful. But, oops, the B-2 can drop nuclear bombs...so for firepower, the B-2 gets the check mark. There are hundreds of other possible examples.
The bottom line is Sidious' Force Drain was never shown to be anywhere near Nihilus' level. Thus, we assume Nihilus' ability in that area is greater until proven otherwise. Assuming the opposite isn't a valid conclusion.
3) mace has shown in deforming siddious which was by force and not with sword that he is considerably above nilihus
He used Vaapad to do that. In an All-Out match, I've already shown that Mace isn't going to be able to use Vaapad's special abilities or his Shatterpoint, unless he wants to be absolutely destroyed by Force Drain or TK. Now, pure saber combat, yes - we've all acknowledged that Mace's ability with a lightsaber dwarfs Nihilus'.
That's all for now.
OH MY GOD! Thank you, Enyalus. That was really a fantastic post! 😊 I hope he gets the point now. I advise you to carefully read these posts, Man of Christ.
what makes you think he would have a gander of a time stunning mace? mace is not some catfish padawan, im sure he knows how to put up a block to that.
Just what precisely are you going on about? I never said anything of the sort. You previously claimed my point was invalid since it can be changed through gameplay. I clearly showed that's not the case.
Anyways, I don't see anything convincing that suggests Mace will be able to resist any of Nihilus' attacks. The Exile was very powerful no matter how you play through (certainly no catfish) and she was stunned by a casual wave of the hand. And we can assume that is far from the upper limit of his power.
its because as you say he was overwhelmed, surely mace could put up an even more overwhelming challenge
I guess we're using Mace Windu when he got his hand lopped off by Anakin then? No, we're discussing the characters at states where they are not impaired. As I said previously, they are at their peaks conditionally. Which means that what happened in the Ravager, stays in the Ravager - it's not proof of anything.
1) the contradiction to the first part is that if nilihus is at his peak then he is not hungry therefore doesnt need to do force drain, and probably wont since he didnt even drain visas or mandalore when he WAS hungry, so i doubt if he is full he will do it to mace when he ISNT hungry
^
See that post above mine; and this is downright ridiculous. Nihilus is never "full" really, I believe he can tide his hunger over if he absorbs a mass of living things however. That is not to say he can't or won't drain singular persons (like he tried on the Exile).
2) you gave no proof that visas did any act of self sacrifice exploiting her bond with nilihus, that was my point, clearly she won in the duel so it must have been fear that made her say he is too powerful.
Um, I said it was a strong possibility and it is. We don't know what happened to Visas, so prove she lived through the ordeal. No official ruling has been made, AFAIK. Even if she didn't sacrifice herself it is irrelevant to my CONCLUSION; the battle is inadmissible as evidence. You're too caught up on ONE sentence to see my entire point.
As well, you don't seem to understand that someone wouldn't be fearful for no reason, unless they were Nihilophobiacs (get it?). So he had to have possessed the upper hand some point in the duel to make Visas say that.
if i play through the game and only add points to her strength she can easily gut him, so i fail to see an advantage nilihus had.
Weren't you the one who just warned about gameplay elements being non-canon? Yet here you're using them to support your argument.
find me a valid quote or PROOF that he did it instantly and i will agree but untill then my argument still stands which is that we dont know HOW long it took. because we dont know how long it took you CANNOT assume he did it instantly.
Well, I think it would be harder and require more power to be able to hold the Ravager in a constant stasis for x amount of time (and still lift it into orbit). So instead of making Nihilus into more of a demigod than he already is, I think it is best to assume he did it instantly. It doesn't make a difference either way.
exaggerated or no, it is still cannon, GL saw it and made no negative remarks to my knowlege which meant he too accepted it as cannon
That's a bit daft. Lucas hasn't read a majority of the Expanded Universe materials. So how is he going to correct mistakes there? He has Leland Chee and other LFL employees to deal with that type of work. And the former has said that they made the Jedi badass to appeal to children.
if this sith loses in a straight up sword duel to the exile who is not on par with mace or siddious, then he of course would go down to someone on mace or siddious's level.
The only chance Mace has to defeat him is in a lightsaber battle. But suggesting that Mace can close the distance between the two is absurdity at best when we've seen what Nihilus is capable of doing with the Force.
and dont go talking about how many force powers the exile has because if i go through and only select powers like battle meditation, force heal, etc... then he doesnt have any offensive powers therefore would get cut, its all about what powers the exile is KNOWN to have not speculated to have.
...Err, what? I didn't intend to.
you dont become number 2 in the jedi order just by saber skills, if that were the case then to some anoon boondara would outrank yoda. my point being that i think the qualifications for rank in the council include saberskills force knowlege and history . (surely the jedi take classes). all this to say you CANNOT assume he is ignorant of nilihus historian or not.
He's on the Jedi Council and #2 in the Order, ergo he knows intimate details about Darth Nihilus? That doesn't follow. You can't draw a connection between them based on that.
Like I said, doubt is going to be the default belief here. There can be numerous other possibilities, but none of them can be proven. So we shouldn't allow any of them, rather "he knows exactly squat about him [as far as we know]". If we accepted that he was aware of Nihilus' powers, then it gives Mace an advantage that he might not actually possess. Not that it matters when he is dead though.
my point is mace has the neccesary telekenisis to do so.when it comes to the force mace has more micro vision than nilihus, nilihus specifies in macro vision, so mace could easily throw objects at him and batter him.
What? That doesn't make any sense.
So you're saying that Nihilus: a) won't be able to defend against that, b) isn't capable of doing the same thing, c) would be overpowered by the much weaker Mace Windu with silly Force tactics?
And macro/micro vision? Right. You need to start offering up some valid evidence for these assumptions.
Nihilus utterly tossed Traya around like a ragdoll (who's > Mace), used TK on a more massive scale than Windu (lifting the Ravager), destroyed an entire world with ease, and casually stunned two powerful beings in an instant. I don't see Mace standing anything more than a snowball's chance in hell.
not to be sarcastic but i thank you for taking the time to respond to my long post it shows that you care
Lol, no problem. Even though I really can't agree with your points, thanks for responding back! 😄
Originally posted by EnyalusPalpatine DID drain(force drain) the inhabitants of byss . Don't believe me? Ask lightsnake to give you the page number from dark empire source book to prove it.
Schwarzenegger: None of what you mention involved Force Drain.
Once again nihilus attack is NOT force drain if you actually paid any attention to kreia, she stated that he destroyes/severs his victims force bond killing them instantly and then feeds on the death he has caused.
Originally posted by EnyalusIncase you didn't know, naga caused a supernova via technology, it was NOT off his own power and weaklings like aleema keto could use that technology to blow up stars as well.
1. Causing a Supernova - Naga Shadow and...Freedon Nadd
Read the new essential chronology or the sith war, they prove that naga relied on technology for these feats.
I'll ask you again, prove up that nihilus actually lifted the ship from the gravity well, find a reliable source other than tobin whom is fallible because he was not there at malachor to actually see nihilus do anthing to the ravager hence he cannot be taken seriously.