DE Sidious vs ROTS Yoda, Mace, Anakin, and Obi Wan

@Gideon

Originally posted by Gideon
Hey, Nai, since you bring up Count Dooku owning the holy hell out of his enemies, how is the comic book series with him and Quinlan Vos? A lot of people seem to hate it, but I haven't read it.

Well. I liked it, especially since it's one of the comics that are artistically well done. The storyline also makes sense. Only Khaleen did went on my nerves here and there though I don't know recall why at the moment.

@Enyalus

Originally posted by Enyalus
Untrue. Lightsnake initially replied to me with the very logically inept line, "if Bane's lightning can burn through techno beasts, nothing is going to stop Palpatine from turning metal to ash if he so desires." Which is completely speculative, and it would fall upon him to prove that Sidious' lightning is equal to or greater than Bane's.

Urm. Wrong. May I remind you that you have come up with that:

Originally posted by Enyalus
Why's this still an issue? As brought up the Project Holocron, DE Sidious' lightning cannot disintegrate large metal objects (or any metal objects for that matter), nor can he disintegrate lightsabers unless he's on a powerful Dark Side world such a Byss.

And there we go newbie. So you brought up that Sidious lightning cannot disintegrate large metal objects? I'd really love to see your proof for that [and yes, burden of proof is yours] because, you know pal: Even if Sidious didn't use force lightning in that particular situation or didn't desintegrate that metal thingy at all, that is all we can conclude from that situation. However. A theory not supported by this hypothesis is that, because he probably simply didn't use force lightning on that occasion, he can never desintegrate metal with that ability.

Which is, somehow, a stupid take anyways. Sidious did annihilate an battalion of Storm-Troopers. Going by the fact that a batallion consists of four companies, that each hold 144 Troopers, that would mean he killed 576 Storm-Troopers with a single force lightning attack. Now, you might be aware of the fact that those Storm-Troopers do wear armour that actually allows them to survive in the vacuum of space [for example] as well as under various other extreme conditions. So how did Sidious execute them through their armour? Is it possible that he burned holes into the armor suits, which then resulted in the Storm-Troopers being hit by his lightning arcs? And if that should be the case, and those people were wearing metal armor, can it be that he is actually capable of melting metal with his force lightning? And if that is correct – going by the fact that he did it to 576 people simultaneously, do you consider it possible that DE Sidious, a guy that could erase entire fleets with his force abilities, is capable of desintegrating metal whenever he wants to do that?

And actually. If Bane's lightning was even close to that of Sidious, then why would Bane even attempt to aim prior to an attack unless being confronted with force users [who might have a defence against that ability], as he must be capable of annihilating entire armies with his lightning blasts?

See Project Holocron page 20 for this supposed feat that DE Sidious fanboys refer to that was busted. And I provide more detailed scans on, I think, page 24. It's a 1 ton cooling unit no larger than anything Vader telekinetically throws at Luke in ESB. It falls on Palpatine's head. And he shrugs it off. Because he's empowered from being on Byss. No disintegration. No lightning at all.

Erm. Actually the scan shows the lower piece of the metal object getting desintegrated if I'm not totally mistaken and, well, in the next pictures you should see the thing on the ground somewhere next to Sidious, if he just let it drop down. Yet the thing is, apparently, gone. So either he desintegrated it or he tossed the 1 ton cooling unit (where did you get that number from btw?) out of the line of sight, without focussing too much on it.

And the statement that he just could do that because residing on Byss actually begs for proof, not to mention that “being on a Dark Side world” doesn't result in considerable power boosts among Dark Side users, otherwise Dooku should have been able to overpower Yoda on Vjun, and pretty much every other confrontation between a Dark Jedi or Sith and a Jedi on dark side tainted worlds [Ambria, Ruusan, Byss], or even places [Vader's fortress, the Emperor's palace etc] should give the Dark Side user a considerable advantage in combat which – duh – apparently never happens.

@DarkSerpent:

Originally posted by DarkSerpent
Borby is going to use an assload of space when he could make the same points in two paragraphs.

Gideon, let the Ego-Nexus that is Borby take it.

Oh my god. Listen closely, tiny dancer. I don't know which actor in this theatre of tragedy decided to order "Nonsense served by an Idiot" when passing the nearest McDrive...but apparently somebody did the job, because otherwise you won't be typing anything here.

If you have something to say that we didn't already read about 500 times, in a desperate attempt to crawl into the red hot chockolate starfishs of certain individuals, you are allowed to hit the reply button. Otherwise: Know your role and shut your mouth. Or write a blog, which would be the common way to litter the internet with stuff that nobody does care about. And if you don't need the internet, I'm sure you can find that pink diary with the unicorn on the front, that you use to express your thoughts when you're not here, and have some fun with that.

Nai, you have proven my point about you.

I liked your post refuting LS's claims.

Originally posted by Borbarad
And there we go newbie. So you brought up that Sidious lightning cannot disintegrate large metal objects? I'd really love to see your proof for that [and yes, burden of proof is yours] because, you know pal: Even if Sidious didn't use force lightning in that particular situation or didn't desintegrate that metal thingy at all, that is all we can conclude from that situation. However. A theory not supported by this hypothesis is that, because he probably simply didn't use force lightning on that occasion, he can never desintegrate metal with that ability.

The only direct evidence for Sidious ever disintegrating metal, so often brought up around here - is what he supposedly does to that cooling unit. The narrator of the Dark Empire Sourcebook clarifies the feat by saying he 'shrugged off' the impact, meaning it hit him, and he didn't disintegrate anything, he shrugged it off. Therefore there is zero textual or on-panel evidence that he can disintegrate metal. And blindly assuming he can is a fallacy when there's no proof of it. As I hope you agree.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Which is, somehow, a stupid take anyways. Sidious did annihilate an battalion of Storm-Troopers. Going by the fact that a batallion consists of four companies, that each hold 144 Troopers, that would mean he killed 576 Storm-Troopers with a single force lightning attack. Now, you might be aware of the fact that those Storm-Troopers do wear armour that actually allows them to survive in the vacuum of space [for example] as well as under various other extreme conditions. So how did Sidious execute them through their armour? Is it possible that he burned holes into the armor suits, which then resulted in the Storm-Troopers being hit by his lightning arcs? And if that should be the case, and those people were wearing metal armor, can it be that he is actually capable of melting metal with his force lightning? And if that is correct – going by the fact that he did it to 576 people simultaneously, do you consider it possible that DE Sidious, a guy that could erase entire fleets with his force abilities, is capable of desintegrating metal whenever he wants to do that?

Starkiller also kills hundreds of stormtroopers at once, numerous times. And doesn't Dooku also kill a battalion of clone troopers? Does this mean that they're lightning is on par with Sidious? Or that maybe every capable Force Lightning user can disintegrate metal?

Metal conducts electricity. Suits touch their wearer's bodies. Which means that it's very possible - and likely - that a stormtrooper could be killed in their armor without their armor being breached.

Originally posted by Borbarad
And actually. If Bane's lightning was even close to that of Sidious, then why would Bane even attempt to aim prior to an attack unless being confronted with force users [who might have a defence against that ability], as he must be capable of annihilating entire armies with his lightning blasts?

I'm not clear on what you're suggesting here, as I don't think I've suggested anything of the sort. If you're using Lightsnake's logic about "if Bane can just bend the lightning why does he miss Hetton LOL!?" please don't. Because I've explained my theory of Force Lightning and it doesn't involve bending anything - I seriously question LS's ability to comprehend basic English. Regarding Sidious killing the stormtroopers while sparing his Red Guard, he sees and recognizes the energy signatures of his Guard in the Force (every lifeform has a Force signature, like an imprint...NJO cites this multiple times), and simply targets everything else. No bending of lightning involved. And the stormtroopers do not have the reaction time, reflexes, or ability to jump and dodge out of the way, as a single person - Hetton - did to Bane.

Bane also uses his Force Storm to kill multiple targets simultaneously - see the mercenary camp on Ruusan as evidence. Just because there weren't more targets around, isn't evidence that he couldn't kill more at once.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Erm. Actually the scan shows the lower piece of the metal object getting desintegrated if I'm not totally mistaken and, well, in the next pictures you should see the thing on the ground somewhere next to Sidious, if he just let it drop down. Yet the thing is, apparently, gone. So either he desintegrated it or he tossed the 1 ton cooling unit (where did you get that number from btw?) out of the line of sight, without focussing too much on it.

"When Leia tried to kill the Emperor by dropping a cooling unit on him, Palpatine shrugged off the crushing impact of a ton of machinery."

A ton = one ton.

The reason it looks like it's disintegrating is twofold - the cooling unit was attached to a beam above.

When Leia rips it off, the little pieces of debris fall down on Sidious' head, too.

The second reason? Bad animation. Also, in the scans - no background or background objects are evident in the next panels at all, only the characters themselves are focused on until the panel where Leia hits the ground, knocked out from Sidious using his Force Lightning on her. Again, the narrator says he shrugs it off, and that it strikes him, so no disintegration period.

Originally posted by Borbarad
And the statement that he just could do that because residing on Byss actually begs for proof, not to mention that “being on a Dark Side world” doesn't result in considerable power boosts among Dark Side users, otherwise Dooku should have been able to overpower Yoda on Vjun, and pretty much every other confrontation between a Dark Jedi or Sith and a Jedi on dark side tainted worlds [Ambria, Ruusan, Byss], or even places [Vader's fortress, the Emperor's palace etc] should give the Dark Side user a considerable advantage in combat which – duh – apparently never happens.

Again from the omniscient narrator in the Sourcebook:

"Despite his clone's rapid deterioration, Palpatine seemed invulnerable while on Byss, and his use of Force powers there was more of an afterthought than an exercise."

If it wasn't because of Byss, the writer would have said something to affect of "Palpatine seems invulnerable, his use of Force powers were more of an afterthought than an exercise."

He specifies the location (twice) and uses it to explain away his disintegration of Leia's lightsaber feat as well as the cooling unit shrugging off. If location made no difference, that wouldn't have been necessary.

Does that clear most of it up, Nai? I'm sure you'll still have issues with my Bane > Sidious in Lightning argument, but the rest?

Enyalus: Good job on the disintegration argument, honestly, its obvious your explanation of it is the only possible, since its stated, word for word. I wish i could get across that you can't assume something, just because it looks a certain way, if its contradicted by a direct source.

My own example of that is the Obi-wan, anakin, ROTS fight. On-screen, it looks like anakin is beating the crap out of obi-wan, but if you read the novelization, it makes it obvious kenobi was in control. Just because it appears on-screen one way, the source shows that our initial intepreation of the visual was false. Its the same way with the DE comic.

No, TJ, it is not.

Originally posted by truejedi
Enyalus: Good job on the disintegration argument, honestly, its obvious your explanation of it is the only possible, since its stated, word for word. I wish i could get across that you can't assume something, just because it looks a certain way, if its contradicted by a direct source.

My own example of that is the Obi-wan, anakin, ROTS fight. On-screen, it looks like anakin is beating the crap out of obi-wan, but if you read the novelization, it makes it obvious kenobi was in control. Just because it appears on-screen one way, the source shows that our initial intepreation of the visual was false. Its the same way with the DE comic.

Thank you.

I'd agree that Obi-Wan was controlling the fight, and that's obvious in the novel. I'd also say that if Vader was in a...more rational state of mind, he'd wipe the floor with his former master, though.

Originally posted by Enyalus
The only direct evidence for Sidious ever disintegrating metal, so often brought up around here - is what he supposedly does to that cooling unit. The narrator of the Dark Empire Sourcebook clarifies the feat by saying he 'shrugged off' the impact, meaning it hit him, and he didn't disintegrate anything, he shrugged it off. Therefore there is zero textual or on-panel evidence that he can disintegrate metal. And blindly assuming he can is a fallacy when there's no proof of it. As I hope you agree.

I am not blindly assuming that Sidious can desintegrate metal, because I saw him summoning a force storm, "ravaging space-time itself", taking apart multiple Rebel ships, which - last time I checked - consisted of metal. And they looked pretty much "gone" after they were sucked into said hole in space-time.

So, obviously, you would have to limit your statement to "there is no evidence for Sidious being able to desintegrate metal using his force lightning". But then again, why would he even try to melt down metal using his force lightning, if he can make about everything disappear in a nice hole in space-time, which he can summon "with a mere thought"?

Starkiller also kills hundreds of stormtroopers at once, numerous times. And doesn't Dooku also kill a battalion of clone troopers? Does this mean that they're lightning is on par with Sidious? Or that maybe every capable Force Lightning user can disintegrate metal?

You are aware of the fact that you have dodged pretty much all of my questions with a completely irrelevant missdirection to those other force users, right?

If they can reproduce feats, it pretty much means this: They are capable of reproducing the feat, which says nothing about their power in comparison to that of Sidious. "Capable force lightning user" is such an arbitrary category, that I don't know who I should fit into it. Revan who apparently annihilated Rakatan Scouting parties by "calling lightning from the sky"? Exar Kun who doesn't need to desintegrate anything with force lightning, as he carries around Sith amulets doing the job?

Metal conducts electricity. Suits touch their wearer's bodies. Which means that it's very possible - and likely - that a stormtrooper could be killed in their armor without their armor being breached.

Oh,oh,oh.
Much to learn you still have, my little friend. First: We're dealing with the SW universe here. Can you give me the specific ohmic resistance of the material those Stormtrooper Armor is made off? I don't think so. But since the usual method of coming up with material in the SW universe consists of putting different materials together on a molecular level (see Duracrete) I guess we can assume that said resitance might be rather high.

Which wouldn't matter at all. Because, you know, the hands of said armor can be electically powered up for Hand to Hand combat. And I really doubt, that the Empire constructs armor suits, that would, upon such activation, shock their users instead of opponents. That, of course, means, that the metal conducts electicity, yes, but the wearer is protected from that electicity, meaning that the metal is not worn on the skin directly, but in between there is a material that apparently protects the wearer against electricity.

And thus, to kill a Storm-Trooper with force lightning, even if you want to assume that the metal the suit consists of is a nice conductor, one still would have to breach the protection against electicity.

Bane also uses his Force Storm to kill multiple targets simultaneously - see the mercenary camp on Ruusan as evidence. Just because there weren't more targets around, isn't evidence that he couldn't kill more at once.

Oh no, dude. That doesn't work. If you assume that Sidious can't destroy metal with his lightning, because we don't see it happen, then you would also have to assume that Bane can't kill more people with a single force attack than we see him killing. Everything else would be a double standard.

The reason it looks like it's disintegrating is twofold - the cooling unit was attached to a beam above.

When Leia rips it off, the little pieces of debris fall down on Sidious' head, too.

Seriously, dude. Did you ever happen to come across that subject called "physics"? You know that the "little pieces of debris" would fall equally fast in comparison to the cooling unit. The result of that will be that they can hit Sidious at the same time as the cooling unit or after the cooling unit. But using your interpretation of what we see in the comic, they must have hit Sidious before the cooling unit. And that, my friend, is logically impossible, considering that you see them falling down after the cooling unit.

This aside your supposed "pieces of debris" are visible mirroring the shape of the cooling unit, but I suppose this is just a coincidence, eh?

The second reason? Bad animation. Also, in the scans - no background or background objects are evident in the next panels at all, only the characters themselves are focused on

Translation: "Because we don't see it, it must have been there [enter reasons for this hypothesis here]"? Yeah. That certainly sounds convincing. Far more than "Oh. We don't see it so it's probably gone." Ever came across "Occams Razor"?

until the panel where Leia hits the ground, knocked out from Sidious using his Force Lightning on her. Again, the narrator says he shrugs it off, and that it strikes him, so no disintegration period.

May I ask you, what narrator you're talking about? There is no narrator speaking in the primary source material [which would be the comic]. The quote you are referring to comes from the Dark Side Sourcebook. And now let me present you the beauty of literature analysis.

Again from the omniscient narrator in the Sourcebook:

Oh my goodness. Why, in the blue hell, is every narrator "omniscient" for you kids, eh? The narrator in the Dark Side Sourcebook doesn't present any information not apparent in the primary source material or so to speak, information that no character appearing in the story could have been aware of. Which would be a criteria for him being "omniscient". So in fact he appears to be a regular third person narrator. Thanks for that.

Aside of that he might be everything but one thing we can surely not attribute to him is that he is "objective". In fact he's using hyperbole [Sidious blotting out the stars and spreading his rule to other galaxies; both never happened] as well as presenting his personal judgement about certain characters. Or in short: The narrator cannot be trusted. End of story.

"Despite his clone's rapid deterioration, Palpatine seemed invulnerable while on Byss, and his use of Force powers there was more of an afterthought than an exercise."

If it wasn't because of Byss, the writer would have said something to affect of "Palpatine seems invulnerable, his use of Force powers were more of an afterthought than an exercise."

He specifies the location (twice) and uses it to explain away his disintegration of Leia's lightsaber feat as well as the cooling unit shrugging off. If location made no difference, that wouldn't have been necessary.

Oh really? I'm astonished that nowadays every mention of a location has a specific meaning. "Qui-Gon and Darth Maul where duelling on Tatooine and the Jedi wasn't able to overcome his opponent." Now. Does me mentioning of the location imply that Qui-Gon would be able to overcome Maul on any other planet? Obviously not. Does the mentioning of Byss in the above statement prove that Sidious couldn't have replicated his feats at any other location? Certainly not. Especially since it's the personal opinion of a not-so-omniscient and biased narrator.

Yet the narrator in the primary source material is in fact omniscient. And what we see through his eyes is a piece of metal getting desintegrated quite obviously. So who are we going to thrust here? The omniscient and objective narrator who is directly witnessing the events as they happen [primary source material] or the third person narrator telling us about events that he might not have personally seen, who seems to be biased anyway [Dark Side Sourcebook]. I'd rather take the stuff presented in the primary source material.

Originally posted by Borbarad
I am not blindly assuming that Sidious can desintegrate metal, because I saw him summoning a force storm, "ravaging space-time itself", taking apart multiple Rebel ships, which - last time I checked - consisted of metal. And they looked pretty much "gone" after they were sucked into said hole in space-time.

So, obviously, you would have to limit your statement to "there is no evidence for Sidious being able to desintegrate metal using his force lightning".

Funny thing, about that. Because in my original post regarding it three pages ago, I say:

Originally posted by Me
As brought up the Project Holocron, DE Sidious' lightning cannot disintegrate large metal objects (or any metal objects for that matter)

Originally posted by Borbarad
But then again, why would he even try to melt down metal using his force lightning, if he can make about everything disappear in a nice hole in space-time, which he can summon "with a mere thought"?

Question: Why indeed, since he doesn't have full control over the Force Storms and since this is a close-quarters battle against four Council-level opponents?
Answer: He doesn't want to be torn to pieces by his own attack.

Originally posted by Borbarad
You are aware of the fact that you have dodged pretty much all of my questions with a completely irrelevant missdirection to those other force users, right?

Just meeting one red herring with another. Since those questions you asked have absolutely nothing to do with providing evidence that Sidious' Force Lightning is superior to Bane's.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh,oh,oh.
Much to learn you still have, my little friend. First: We're dealing with the SW universe here. Can you give me the specific ohmic resistance of the material those Stormtrooper Armor is made off? I don't think so. But since the usual method of coming up with material in the SW universe consists of putting different materials together on a molecular level (see Duracrete) I guess we can assume that said resitance might be rather high.

Another red herring.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Which wouldn't matter at all. Because, you know, the hands of said armor can be electically powered up for Hand to Hand combat. And I really doubt, that the Empire constructs armor suits, that would, upon such activation, shock their users instead of opponents. That, of course, means, that the metal conducts electicity, yes, but the wearer is protected from that electicity, meaning that the metal is not worn on the skin directly, but in between there is a material that apparently protects the wearer against electricity.

Because the hand armor on a stormtrooper is the same material as the, say, chest plating. Oh, right, it isn't. Nice strawman, though.

Originally posted by Borbarad
And thus, to kill a Storm-Trooper with force lightning, even if you want to assume that the metal the suit consists of is a nice conductor, one still would have to breach the protection against electicity.

That hasn't been proven by you, yet. But regardless, it clearly isn't a difficult thing to do for a skilled Force Lightning user like Sidious or Dooku or Galen Marek.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh no, dude. That doesn't work. If you assume that Sidious can't destroy metal with his lightning, because we don't see it happen, then you would also have to assume that Bane can't kill more people with a single force attack than we see him killing. Everything else would be a double standard.

My bullshit detection meter is off the charts here, sensing yet another strawman. Because, you see, Palpatine's Force Lightning has never shown the ability to disintegrate metal, whereas Bane has killed with his lightning. Adding in a few more casualties does not equivocate with attributing something entirely previously unseen (as in Sidious' case). Try again.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Seriously, dude. Did you ever happen to come across that subject called "physics"? You know that the "little pieces of debris" would fall equally fast in comparison to the cooling unit.

Have you? Because if you had taken a Physics class, you'd know that objects with more mass fall faster than lighter objects. Galileo proved that, negating Aristotle's argument, which you're applying.

Originally posted by Borbarad
The result of that will be that they can hit Sidious at the same time as the cooling unit or after the cooling unit. But using your interpretation of what we see in the comic, they must have hit Sidious before the cooling unit. And that, my friend, is logically impossible, considering that you see them falling down after the cooling unit.

Interpretation nothing. The writer of the Dark Empire Sourcebook states that he shrugged it off, and that it hit him. The end, period, drop it.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Translation: "Because we don't see it, it must have been there [enter reasons for this hypothesis here]"? Yeah. That certainly sounds convincing. Far more than "Oh. We don't see it so it's probably gone." Ever came across "Occams Razor"?

Ever came across the fact that Occam's Razor was a medieval-era concept and a deeply flawed principle? Look at the comic - everything except the characters is blacked out. There is no background at all. Or does Sidious' super disintegration powers vaporize the floor, the walls, and his guards, too?

Originally posted by Borbarad
May I ask you, what narrator you're talking about? There is no narrator speaking in the primary source material [which would be the comic]. The quote you are referring to comes from the Dark Side Sourcebook. And now let me present you the beauty of literature analysis.

Congratulations, you can debate semantics. Unfortunately it doesn't help your arguments. Chalk up yet another red herring to you.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh my goodness. Why, in the blue hell, is every narrator "omniscient" for you kids, eh? The narrator in the Dark Side Sourcebook doesn't present any information not apparent in the primary source material or so to speak, information that no character appearing in the story could have been aware of. Which would be a criteria for him being "omniscient". So in fact he appears to be a regular third person narrator. Thanks for that.

He's speaking from an out-of-universe perspective. And he specifies, precisely, that Sidious does not disintegrate the cooling unit - elaborating on what was shown on panel. There is no contradiction. You don't get to argue against the Sourcebook writer's statement and come out correct.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Aside of that he might be everything but one thing we can surely not attribute to him is that he is "objective". In fact he's using hyperbole [Sidious blotting out the stars and spreading his rule to other galaxies; both never happened] as well as presenting his personal judgement about certain characters. Or in short: The narrator cannot be trusted. End of story.

You have the quotes specifically? Page numbers? Anything verifiable at all, "my little friend?" The writer of the Sourcebook presents facts - the DES is not from an in-universe perspective and is not a third person fallible party.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh really? I'm astonished that nowadays every mention of a location has a specific meaning. "Qui-Gon and Darth Maul where duelling on Tatooine and the Jedi wasn't able to overcome his opponent." Now. Does me mentioning of the location imply that Qui-Gon would be able to overcome Maul on any other planet? Obviously not. Does the mentioning of Byss in the above statement prove that Sidious couldn't have replicated his feats at any other location? Certainly not.

Wrong. Considering that directly after the 'on Byss' part he uses that information to explain why Palpatine was able to pull off the lightsaber and cooling unit feat. But then, I've already explained this - several times.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Especially since it's the personal opinion of a not-so-omniscient and biased narrator.

Wrong again.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Yet the narrator in the primary source material is in fact omniscient. And what we see through his eyes is a piece of metal getting desintegrated quite obviously. So who are we going to thrust here? The omniscient and objective narrator who is directly witnessing the events as they happen [primary source material] or the third person narrator telling us about events that he might not have personally seen, who seems to be biased anyway [Dark Side Sourcebook]. I'd rather take the stuff presented in the primary source material.

Firstly, a narrator tells a story - and the narrator explains nothing during the scene. That would be an illustrator - whose artwork obviously was poor enough to need clarification for the DE Sidious fanboys out there, hence the article explaining such a feat in the Dark Empire Sourcebook.

Secondly, the Dark Side Sourcebook is also primary source material and used to elaborate and provide further information and understanding of the story arc in general - it certainly does not, nor can, contradict anything in the comic.

And lastly, the writer of the DES is clearly not biased. But out of morbid curiosity, I'm wondering why you're suddenly defending Sidious when my points actually help your case against him?

Originally posted by Enyalus
I don't need to be redundant. Everyone who had read that post should have known I was referring specifically to Force Lightning. Anyone who didn't is either mentally handicapped or in need of reading glasses. Which category do you fit under?

And anyone who wants to present a premise and lectures other people on keeping an eye on the things they're formulating, should still have added the force lightning thingy once more. And if you don't need to be redundant - then why are you still talking?

Question: Why indeed, since he doesn't have full control over the Force Storms and since this is a close-quarters battle against four Council-level opponents?
Answer: He doesn't want to be torn to pieces by his own attack.

Oh wow. Let me see. As far as I recall, we were arguing Sidious general ability to destroy metal objects [with his force lightning]. Now we're arguing if he's capable of summoning a force storm in the context of this very VS fight?

Just meeting one red herring with another. Since those questions you asked have absolutely nothing to do with providing evidence that Sidious' Force Lightning is superior to Bane's.

Thanks for admitting your use of faulty reasoning.

Another red herring.

Nope, newbie. You might have missed it, but we're pretty much forced to apply inductive reasoning in this argument, which also means that we have to take every information into consideration. So. If you want to compare the power of the force lightning of two characters, you would obviously have to take into consideration, if the targets of their respective attacks had any protection against the attack. Hence, for example, if somebody can kill a normal human being with force lightning, it doesn't mean he can do the same thing to a guy wearing armor or to somebody who can put up force defence against the attack.

Because the hand armor on a stormtrooper is the same material as the, say, chest plating. Oh, right, it isn't. Nice strawman, though.

Oh. I was unaware of the fact that two items who exactly look the same and belong to the same suit of protective wear are naturally composed out of different materials. I would really like to see your proof that they don't consist of the same material. Or did you just want to tell me that those two things are different parts of the armor suit?

That hasn't been proven by you, yet. But regardless, it clearly isn't a difficult thing to do for a skilled Force Lightning user like Sidious or Dooku or Galen Marek.

Stormtrooper armor isn't constructed out of metal, but out of a plastoid fabric. Does plastic conduct electicity nowadays? Then the armor pieces (the white armor plates) are worn over a sealed (they can survive in outer-space) body glove (the black stuff visible under the white armor plates). Said body glove can't conduct electricity [from the outside to the inside], because otherwise they would shock themselves using their power gloves.

So to kill a Stormtrooper with force lightning, one must logically force the lightning through the plastoid fabric and the body glove [or at least through one of that things hitting the helmet or the parts of the body not protected by armor plates]. Can a capable force user do the job? Most likely yes, given examples above. Is Bane capable of doing it on a scale that Sidious did? I don't know.

My bullshit detection meter is off the charts here, sensing yet another strawman. Because, you see, Palpatine's Force Lightning has never shown the ability to disintegrate metal, whereas Bane has killed with his lightning. Adding in a few more casualties does not equivocate with attributing something entirely previously unseen (as in Sidious' case). Try again.

Adding in a few more casualties? How many people did Bane kill with one force lightning attack? Because if you just need "a few" more to reach the count of 576 victims (Sidious frying the Stormtroopers) I'd really like to have the number. And how many of Bane's victims did wear full suits of plastoid body armor over a body glove that doesn't conduct electricity?

Have you? Because if you had taken a Physics class, you'd know that objects with more mass fall faster than lighter objects. Galileo proved that, negating Aristotle's argument, which you're applying.

Either you're not capable of reading or you're plain and simply stupid. I would suggest the latter, because:

a) What Galilei proved was that heavy objects, when dropped don't accelerate faster than lighter objects, proving Aristotle wrong. According to legend, he dropped two balls of the same material but different mass down from a tower and noticed that they did hit the ground at the same time. So thanks for that demonstration of your lack of common knowledge.

b) Going by the fact that the debris is falling after the cooling unit, yet - according to your theory - was hitting Sidious first, you would have to suggest that the lighter objects were falling faster than the heavy one, which can't be explained - neither by Aristotle nor by Galilei - because it's, plain and simple, bullshit.

Interpretation nothing. The writer of the Dark Empire Sourcebook states that he shrugged it off, and that it hit him. The end, period, drop it.

Yes. And the writer of the Dark Empire Sourcebook is interpreting the primary source material, which would be the comic, which shows us the thing landing on Sidious head and getting partitially desintegrated. Primary source material superceedes anything based on it.

Ever came across the fact that Occam's Razor was a medieval-era concept and a deeply flawed principle? Look at the comic - everything except the characters is blacked out. There is no background at all. Or does Sidious' super disintegration powers vaporize the floor, the walls, and his guards, too?

Ever came across the concept that evidence shall not be ignored? Shall I give it another try?

What do we see here, hmm? To me it looks as if the cooling unit is ripped into pieces when hitting the Sith Lord, seemingly by some energy he's generating. And it's quite apparent that the cooling unit shows fissures and that the pieces we see in that “explosion” are coming from the cooling unit. So. Sidious is desintegrating it. Fact. But let's go on.

Congratulations, you can debate semantics. Unfortunately it doesn't help your arguments. Chalk up yet another red herring to you.

Oh well. It doesn't help my argument? Let's see:

He's speaking from an out-of-universe perspective. And he specifies, precisely, that Sidious does not disintegrate the cooling unit - elaborating on what was shown on panel. There is no contradiction. You don't get to argue against the Sourcebook writer's statement and come out correct.

So now the "narrator" of the Sourcebook has turned from an omniscient in universe being to a regular human. While I wouldn't have been able to argue the first, I'm certainly able to argue the second. So obviously "arguing semantics" helped my argument quite well. And I don't get to argue against statements from a Sourcebook write and come out correct? Nice.

Because I don't even have to argue the Sourcebook writer but just your interpretation of what he has written. May I remind you off it:

"When Leia tried to kill the Emperor by dropping a cooling unit on him, Palpatine shrugged off the crushing impact of a ton of machinery."

Thanks for that. So. Does the fact that the cooling unit did impact on the Emperor contradict the idea that it was desintegrated at the same split-second it hit the Sith Lord? No? Then – oh my god, newbie – you don't have a point. Or did somebody claim that Sidious did desintegrate the cooling unit before it could hit him? No. The fact remains that we see the cooling unit getting ripped into pieces. End of story.

Wrong. Considering that directly after the 'on Byss' part he uses that information to explain why Palpatine was able to pull off the lightsaber and cooling unit feat. But then, I've already explained this - several times.

And wrong again, newbie.
"Despite his clone's rapid deterioration, Palpatine seemed invulnerable while on Byss, and his use of Force powers there was more of an afterthought than an exercise."

Where do you see the DES stating that he just was capable off pulling said feats off, while on Byss? What I see there is the claim that he seemed to be invulnerable while being there and that it was easier for him to use the force there (more of an afterthought than an exercise) which, still, doesn't mean that Sidious can't replicate those feats at any given location.

Firstly, a narrator tells a story - and the narrator explains nothing during the scene. That would be an illustrator - whose artwork obviously was poor enough to need clarification for the DE Sidious fanboys out there, hence the article explaining such a feat in the Dark Empire Sourcebook.

If a comic book employs an omniscient narrator, we have to accept the fact that what we see is the point of view of the omniscient narrator.

Secondly, the Dark Side Sourcebook is also primary source material and used to elaborate and provide further information and understanding of the story arc in general - it certainly does not, nor can, contradict anything in the comic.

A Sourcebook interpreting and commenting action that happens in primary sources can never be primary source material, pal. If I write an essay about a book, the essay also isn't primary source material. And sorry. The Sourcebooks are not written to elaborate things and provide further canon information – they are written to interprete the action in a way that makes it fit into the rules of the Star Wars Roleplaying Game. And there is stuff which can't be explained according to said rules, which is why the writer of a sourcebook has to deal with them in a way to make them still fit into his SW RPG universe. For example there is no technique that allows you to desintegrate metal in the SW RPG – so how should that be explained?

And aside of that: If you want to believe everything written down in the Sourcebooks, you have no basis for you argument whatsoever, as even the RotS version of Sidious according to the DSSB trumps Bane in every single force department.

But out of morbid curiosity, I'm wondering why you're suddenly defending Sidious when my points actually help your case against him?

Because you're working with wrong premises and interprete sources according to your opinion. Another answer would be: Look at my user title.

Nai plays the Devil's advocate. It's hard to ascertain how he really feels on the subject. He's a black hole of the Force.

Originally posted by Gideon
Nai plays the Devil's advocate. It's hard to ascertain how he really feels on the subject. He's a black hole of the Force.

Yes, my apprentice. I'm the grim culmination of four years of arguing SW related topics in the KMC SW VS Forum. More badass then flesh. A nexus of sophistic energy and, on top of that I have recently manage to blot out the lamps in my room and spread my rule to other forums.

😉

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh wow. Let me see. As far as I recall, we were arguing Sidious general ability to destroy metal objects [with his force lightning]. Now we're arguing if he's capable of summoning a force storm in the context of this very VS fight?

Yes, that's what we were arguing, until you decided to use a red herring to throw in something completely irrelevant:
"But then again, why would he even try to melt down metal using his force lightning, if he can make about everything disappear in a nice hole in space-time, which he can summon "with a mere thought"?"

And, incase you didn't realize, this is a VS fight, and if you weren't suggesting that he couldn't simply use a Force Storm here, there's absolutely no need for you to post such an irrelevant thought.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Stormtrooper armor isn't constructed out of metal, but out of a plastoid fabric...

Way to go. Remember this:
"And if that should be the case, and those people were wearing metal armor, can it be that he is actually capable of melting metal with his force lightning?"

Thank you for showing your inconsistency. See, that's the problem with arguing for the sake of arguing - you can't always be right. Especially when you argue both sides of the same issue during the same debate.

So we have stormtrooper armor not being metal, the tower in TFU not being disintegrated, and the cooling unit in DE not being disintegrated, and certainly not by Force Lightning. Guess what that means? Since there's zero evidence to support that Darth Sidious' lightning can distingerate metal, he cannot.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Adding in a few more casualties? How many people did Bane kill with one force lightning attack?

Another red herring. Do you think you can manage to stay on topic? Bane has killed multiple people with his Force Lightning. It isn't a stretch to say he could have killed more. Sidious has never disintegrated metal with his Force Lightning. It is a stretch to say that he could, since there is no evidence to support that conclusion.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Yes. And the writer of the Dark Empire Sourcebook is interpreting the primary source material, which would be the comic, which shows us the thing landing on Sidious head and getting partitially desintegrated. Primary source material superceedes anything based on it.

That's your interpretation of events. In the picture, it doesn't even look as though it has struck him yet - as though its still above his head and falling. Not to mention that pictures aren't always accurate in conveying the writer's intentions. Which is why he needed to explain what happened in the Sourcebook, stating specifically that he shrugged it off, and that it hit him. No where does he add, "Sidious disintegrated the cooling unit" or anything of the sort. So no, I'm sorry, but you're version of events are wrong.

What you're doing is no different from Nebaris' arguments regarding PT and OT Jedi not being as fast or as powerful as other characters simply because in the movies they aren't depicted that way. And regardless of what you try to argue, no one here is buying it. Sidious doesn't disintegrate it, or it would have been stated on panel or in the Sourcebook. It isn't. It's just a poor drawing.

Originally posted by Borbarad
What do we see here, hmm? To me it looks as if the cooling unit is ripped into pieces when hitting the Sith Lord, seemingly by some energy he's generating. And it's quite apparent that the cooling unit shows fissures and that the pieces we see in that “explosion” are coming from the cooling unit. So. Sidious is desintegrating it.

The side with the debris falling off of it is the same side which Leia ripped out of the beam. That's why there are fissures in it, that's why there are the 'dots' which look like it is disintegrating.

As for the explosion, that's obviously the 'impact' that the Sourcebook writer mentions. And as for the 'energy' he's generating, have you bothered to read Dark Empire? While on Byss, in at least three entire pages, he is depicted as having a green or yellow glow coming from inside of his robes.

And just so you're reminded, because it would seem like you forget what you're supposed to be arguing - the initial premise was that Sidious cannot disintegrate large metal objects with his Force Lightning. Which, even if we take your interpretation, he doesn't. That hardly matters though, because he isn't disintegrating it at all in any way.

Originally posted by Borbarad
So now the "narrator" of the Sourcebook has turned from an omniscient in universe being to a regular human.

No, you aren't using that strawman. He is an omniscient out of universe writer.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Because I don't even have to argue the Sourcebook writer but just your interpretation of what he has written. May I remind you off it:

"When Leia tried to kill the Emperor by dropping a cooling unit on him, Palpatine shrugged off the crushing impact of a ton of machinery."

Thanks for that. So. Does the fact that the cooling unit did impact on the Emperor contradict the idea that it was desintegrated at the same split-second it hit the Sith Lord? No?

Yes? Because last time I checked, shrugging off something after it hits you ('impact'😉 is completely different than disintegrating it. Conclusion: Sidious doesn't disintegrate the cooling unit, or it would have been specified.

Originally posted by Borbarad
And wrong again, newbie.
"Despite his clone's rapid deterioration, Palpatine seemed invulnerable while on Byss, and his use of Force powers there was more of an afterthought than an exercise."

Where do you see the DES stating that he just was capable off pulling said feats off, while on Byss?

Where do I see it stated? Right after that exact line. And I've posted the quote half a dozen times in another thread, and half of the quote in this thread at least three times already. If you don't know the material, that's fine. Say so, "Newbie."

Originally posted by Borbarad
If a comic book employs an omniscient narrator, we have to accept the fact that what we see is the point of view of the omniscient narrator.

Only, that isn't what is employed. It's third person limited. Even without the speech bubbles of the characters, the "narration bubbles" follow a single character's thoughts. Since you seem not to be familiar with DE, I'll be nice and post exactly one example:

"As Leia ponders the mysterious prophesy of the holocron, a Star Destroyer of prodigious proportions bursts into view over Pinnacle Moon...The Emperor's command vessel seems designed to inspire dread in every possible opponent...But Leia's friends in the Alliance understand that what is about to happen transcends the technology of war. The confrontation with the Emperor - and the fate of the galaxy - is a matter only a Jedi can resolve...Disembarking inside the colossal warship, Leia senses an oppression unlike anything she's ever felt before. There is no glimmer of hope in this ship. Only the Dark Side of the Force. More powerful than ever."

Thus, it's limited third person, not total omniscience. And as for the POV in the picture, it's obviously coming from Luke or Leia's perspective - and hence prone to error, anyway.

Originally posted by Borbarad
A Sourcebook interpreting and commenting action that happens in primary sources can never be primary source material, pal. If I write an essay about a book, the essay also isn't primary source material. And sorry. The Sourcebooks are not written to elaborate things and provide further canon information – they are written to interprete the action in a way that makes it fit into the rules of the Star Wars Roleplaying Game.

I apologize for this. I had meant to say Dark Empire Sourcebook, not Dark Side Sourcebook.

Originally posted by Borbarad
And if you don't need to be redundant - then why are you still talking?

Originally posted by Borbarad
I'm the grim culmination of four years of arguing SW related topics in the KMC SW VS Forum...A nexus of sophistic energy...

You're right. You clearly don't have anything constructive to add, so unless someone else wants to take this up, I'm done with this thread. I've made my points. And no, they are not wrong. As has been shown.

Regarding Palpatine disintegrating the cooling unit, my Master, the Great Publius, corroborates what Nai has to say:

The suggestion that Palpatine's displays of power are not exceptional is not a tenable position. Palpatine has been observed to move faster than the eye can detect (Episode I Journal: Darth Maul), to have immediate knowledge of events transpiring halfway across the galaxy (Revenge of the Sith), to telepathically project across interstellar distances ("Sleight of Hand: The Tale of Mara Jade"😉, to open hyperspace wormholes (Dark Empire), to teleport matter (id.), to disintegrate a lightsaber by psychokinesis (id.), to withstand a direct blow to the head from a ton of metal and then instantaneously disintegrate the same (id.), and to disintegrate warships ranging from a 300-meter frigate to a 16-kilometer battleship in a matter of minutes (id.). Palpatine's destructive capacity can be measure in the gigaton range, without even considering his more metaphysical demonstrations of power, such as reincarnating under his own power (Dark Empire), or repeatedly removing the soul of another being and implanting it into a new body (Darksaber).

Yes, but that's Publius' own interpretation. There is nothing in the source materials to come to that conclusion.

And Publius' opinion =/ Canon source.

Sorry Gideon. 😉

In all honesty, that thing in the artwork is pretty clearly being destroyed...it's breaking apart and pieces are coming off. It's entirely possible both are true.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Yes, but that's Publius' own interpretation. There is nothing in the source materials to come to that conclusion.

And Publius' opinion =/ Canon source.

Sorry Gideon. 😉

No, Enyalus, Nai and Publius are both entirely correct. The comic shows it disintegrating as well as connecting. If the narration completely eliminated and clarified that the cooling unit remained one piece, you'd have a point. But it doesn't, so you don't.

Okay. Can we compromise and say that DE Palpatine is capable of disintegrating the cooling unit, but not with his Force Lightning and only while being amped by Byss or another Dark Side rich world? (Which Publius left out of his summary.)