DE Sidious vs ROTS Yoda, Mace, Anakin, and Obi Wan

Originally posted by Gideon
Enyalus, when I see your arguments, I'm practically suffocating beneath the fog of WRONG! that you seem to create.

Prove that Bane's lightning is more powerful than Palpatine's.

It isn't my burden of proof. LS was the one using the logic, "If Bane can do it Palpatine can do it better." Which you also seem to ascribe to.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
If Bane's lightning can burn through techno beasts, nothing is going to stop Palpatine from turning metal to ash if he so desires.

The burden of proof is on you to prove Palpatine's Force Lightning superiority. Based on feats and displays, Bane's Lightning > Palpatine's Lightning. Unless there's a source saying otherwise, or until they write another book about how uber Palpatine is and show him charring 10 meter long drexls with scale armor to the bone with one hand (while moving in the air - accuracy feat as well), as well as reducing technobeasts to ash and melted metal, tearing through Jedi Council member's shields like they don't exist, and being easily more powerful than the combined voltage output of five full powered Force Pikes - Bane's Lightning is superior.

Palpatine's reflected lightning owns a ****ing tower, disintegrates three Sith acolytes casually, owns Jedi casually (despite the Emperor being upon the brink of death), pushes "teh most powerful Jedi ever!" to his limits absolute limits, and overpowers a Jedi general capable of casually resisting Sith lightning from Starkiller. Not to mention he can maneuver it to avoid his Royal Guardsmen in the heat of battle, striking only his enemies.

So, yeah... Palpatine > Bane. Palpatine's lightning > Bane's lightning.

Originally posted by Gideon
Palpatine's reflected lightning owns a ****ing tower, disintegrates three Sith acolytes casually, owns Jedi casually (despite the Emperor being upon the brink of death), pushes "teh most powerful Jedi ever!" to his limits absolute limits, and overpowers a Jedi general capable of casually resisting Sith lightning from Starkiller. Not to mention he can maneuver it to avoid his Royal Guardsmen in the heat of battle, striking only his enemies.

So, yeah... Palpatine > Bane. Palpatine's lightning > Bane's lightning.

The only impressive part of that entire post was the tower.

Kota isn't top tier - we all know this. And Galen takes the full force of his lightning (aimed to kill Kota the second time around) and survives it easily enough.

That was... awful.

Originally posted by Gideon
Palpatine's reflected lightning owns a ****ing tower,

disintegrates three Sith acolytes casually,

owns Jedi casually (despite the Emperor being upon the brink of death)

Prove how being on the brink of death reduces his destructive ability with the Force.

pushes "teh most powerful Jedi ever!" to his limits absolute limits,

and overpowers a Jedi general capable of casually resisting Sith lightning from Starkiller.

Not to mention he can maneuver it to avoid his Royal Guardsmen in the heat of battle, striking only his enemies.

So, yeah... Palpatine > Bane. Palpatine's lightning > Bane's lightning.

Originally posted by Enyalus
The only impressive part of that entire post was the tower.

Oh, well... in that case...

[Enyalus] LOLZ NONE OF YOUR ARGUMENT WAS IMPRESSIVE!! NAH NAH BANE'S FEATS BLOW! [/Enyalus]

See? I can do it to. Substantiate why it isn't impressive, sport. I'm disinclined to educate you on how to debate, though it is painfully obvious that you need some of it.

Kota isn't top tier - we all know this.

[Enyalus] LOLZ NEITHER IS BANE HAR HAR!!1![/Enyalus]

Again, I can still do that. Substantiate why he isn't impressive. Because he wasn't on the Council? Jesus Christ, neither was Anakin until Palpatine shoved his ass on it. Is that the hallmark of a failure? Doubt it, since the novelization says that General Kota casually deflected Sith lightning (and then telekinesis) from Starkiller, who is enormously friggin' powerful.

And Galen takes the full force of his lightning (aimed to kill Kota the second time around) and survives it easily enough.

Except the fact that he's dead when the smoke clears... or is survival defined as "dying in an attempt" now?

Originally posted by Faunus
That was... awful.

What can I say? I'm evoking you.

Depends on what source you look at. We have three conflicting versions.

The comic and the game support the idea that it was Palpatine's deflected Force energies. That would be two versus one.

Which Bane, ten years before we last see him, does to three riders and their ten-meter beast while flying over a kilometer in the air on the back of another drexl.

Were they Force sensitive? Were they masters of Sith alchemy? Did he do it with one hand?

He kills one Jedi and overloads the life support system of another.

Prove how being on the brink of death reduces his destructive ability with the Force.

Well, one assumes that a man who was "barely able to walk" according to the New Essential Chronology might find difficulty in summoning Force energies?

While said Jedi is literally teetering on the edge of a steel pod, grasping it with his feet, and yet still manages to force it back towards the aggressor.

Don't start taking shit out of context, Faunus. Care to venture a guess as to why Yoda was "teetering on the edge of a steel pod" in the first place? You're not going to like the answer. 😉

And I said "tested to his limits." You didn't disprove that at all.

Kota resisted the lightning of a weaker Starkiller, and didn't even try to block Palpatine's. He simply got knocked to the ground by it.

Right. Don't take shit out of context. He was armed with the Sith Lord's lightsaber, Palpatine was surprised, and he still knocked Kota on his ass.

This was impressive.

Good to have your endorsement.

WOW. Could you prove it any more conclusively?

I just did. As for Palpatine > Bane, let's not go back into that. It will only end with you crying and conceding defeat. Palpatine's stronger and in the words of Cliegg Lars, "Accept it."

Originally posted by Enyalus
It isn't my burden of proof. LS was the one using the logic, "If Bane can do it Palpatine can do it better." Which you also seem to ascribe to.

Erm. Actually, if you want to suggest that Bane's lightning is more powerful than that of Sidious, it would be your burden of proof. Not that it matters because:

The burden of proof is on you to prove Palpatine's Force Lightning superiority. Based on feats and displays, Bane's Lightning > Palpatine's Lightning. Unless there's a source saying otherwise, or until they write another book about how uber Palpatine is and show him charring 10 meter long drexls with scale armor to the bone with one hand (while moving in the air - accuracy feat as well), as well as reducing technobeasts to ash and melted metal, tearing through Jedi Council member's shields like they don't exist, and being easily more powerful than the combined voltage output of five full powered Force Pikes - Bane's Lightning is superior.

As you might as well have noticed: Neither Drexls nor technobeasts (those might even have a weakness against force lightning) or metal constructs have any defence against Force Lightning. And for the latter one has to say that Sidious apparently simply disintegrated a huge metal construct about to drop on his head in DE, without even moving.

As far as the Jedi are concerned: You have to know certain techniques to defend yourself against any form of force lightning, no matter how powerful it is. Even if you have a saber in your hand which could aid your attempts to defend yourself against that ability, you have to be able to focus the lightning on your blade as it - apparently - isn't just drawn to the lightsaber automatically.

Without that, every user of force lightning is going to pretty much destroy you with a casual hand movement. Just have a look at Dooku pwning Jedi and Dark Jedi apparently effortless with that ability.

Hey, Nai, since you bring up Count Dooku owning the holy hell out of his enemies, how is the comic book series with him and Quinlan Vos? A lot of people seem to hate it, but I haven't read it.

Originally posted by Borbarad
[B]He didn't blast a hole into Rayf - he destroyed his clothes. And defending themselves with a saber? Yes. Not only that this technique must have been learned (putting your saber in the way alone won't help). As I already said: Brands saber was built into his arm, Rayf didn't know any defence. And hell...I don't see anybody with the powerlevel of Mace Windu running around there.

What point is it, that you don't get, Lightsnake? It doesn't matter if Luke can contend with Sidious. Point is: Sidious attempts to kill him with force lightning and manages to do nothing more but putting him on his ass. End of story.

I may ask once more: Do you think the likes of Yoda, Mace, Anakin and Obi-Wan are closer to DE Luke in terms of power - or would rather compare then to untrained Rayf, untrained Leia and weak-against-force-lightning Brand? Is that question simple enough for you, or do I have to find somebody that speaks fluent moron?

Rofl. Are you the same guy that told me two paragraphs in the past that holding up your saber is enough to defend against Sidious force lightning? Hilarious.
And no. I'm assuming it will work like it always work, Lightsnake. The Jedi can refocus the lightning to hit nothing but their lightsaber. I wonder that you didn't notice that.

Oh holy shit, dude. Get your head out of your ass. If you don't read what I write, you can simply go and shut up, because I won't waste 2 more minutes of my free-time with you.

Anakin and Obi-Wan can defend themselves against lightning on Dooku level. Got that? Mace and Yoda can defend themselves against lightning on RotS Sidious level. Got that? Okay. If you have understood it that far: Even if Sidious can shoot lightning that fills the entire room, the Jedi will probably be able to draw it to their lightsabers (or in Yoda's case: hands). Then, to overpower them all together with one simultaneous force attack, he needs to generate power on a level that more than doubles his own as seen in RotS (to overpower Mace and Yoda at the same time), adding more than twice the power Dooku could come up with (to simultaneously own Anakin and Obi-Wan).

If you come up with another stupid reply like you presented here, I will happily write that on a nice, heavy piece of wood and whack your head with it.

Oh cool. Notice people: Neither of that Jedi has any defence to force lightning, hence we saw all of them defending themselves against that ability at least in one instance of the SW mythos. Hooray.

Gosh. This is Earth talking, Lightsnake. Yes. Sidious had one last chance. So he was capable of making a decission between trying all he could to get rid of the Jedi and maybe lose his body in the process (which didn't matter as the child was near anyways) or getting killed without defending himself with all he could.

No, Lightsnake. The physician said that any anger or use of the force would speed up the degeneration of his body. In fact going so far that telling Sidious a single force use will kill him. And it's still the same guy who was responsible for said Clone failing at all.

Is that the same Sidious who, at that point in time - as mentioned in the appendix to the DE comic, wanted to summon another force storm to kill Luke and Leia? Uh-hu. So apparently he wanted to kill Luke before the duel, in the duel and after the duel.

Note: I question Rayfs ability to defend himself against Force Lightning. Lightsnake replies talking some random crap. Admit it. You're a bot programmed to random quote-and-answer me...

Oh look. After telling me that putting your saber in the way of Sidious lightning would help, then telling me it won't do anything, we're now back at the "Oh they could just have moved their saber into the way" scenario. Brilliant.

Oh cool. Now Lightsnake is reacting on something I basically asked 30 replies ago: How many force attacks do you think Sidious can use before the Jedi reach him. No answer.

But obviously. Our Sidious fanboy number one would answer this question with "Whatever number of opponents he's facing - that is the number of force attacks he can perform before having to engage them in a lightsaber duel. And of course, he will perform four force attacks simultaneously if that's the only way for him winning."

Lightsnake is talking in a language you can't understand. First: There is nothing to suggest that he even can kill Yoda with a single, instantenous working force attack.

Second: Even if we assume that he can do the job, that means he has to engaged Anakin, Mace and Obi-Wan in lightsaber combat.

Unless we're arguing that they are attacking him from a mile of range, because we're fanboys and need him to perform 120 force attacks before he even gets in the remote danger of getting cut into pieces. [/B]

i like that option better. Stop being so immature

Originally posted by Gideon
The comic and the game support the idea that it was Palpatine's deflected Force energies. That would be two versus one.

Lying, now?

Were they Force sensitive? Were they masters of Sith alchemy? Did he do it with one hand?

And yes, one hand.

Don't start taking shit out of context, Faunus. Care to venture a guess as to why Yoda was "teetering on the edge of a steel pod" in the first place? You're not going to like the answer. 😉

And I said "tested to his limits." You didn't disprove that at all.

Right. Don't take shit out of context.

I evoke you.

He was armed with the Sith Lord's lightsaber, Palpatine was surprised, and he still knocked Kota on his ass.

Sorry, no. Getting an attack through =/= overpowering.

I just did. As for Palpatine > Bane, let's not go back into that. It will only end with you crying and conceding defeat.

Crying and conceding defeat? Do you actually remember we had this argument? Oh, wait. "We" didn't. Crimzon and I did, you did absolutely nothing.

Palpatine's stronger and in the words of Cliegg Lars, "Accept it."

This bullshit is pathetic. If all you can do is try and talk shit, just leave this to Lightsnake. I'm not trying to prove that Bane is more powerful than Sidious, but I'm trying to wrap my head around the staggeringly retarded "argument" you put forth to "prove" that the latter's lightning is better.

But, then again, you are competitive about Palpatine's sex life in comparison to that of other Sith Lords, so I shouldn't be too surprised.

Originally posted by Gideon
Hey, Nai, since you bring up Count Dooku owning the holy hell out of his enemies, how is the comic book series with him and Quinlan Vos? A lot of people seem to hate it, but I haven't read it.

First, LMAO. Easy, Faunus. This was all banter, nothing intended to get your panties in a wad.

Originally posted by Faunus
You said the comic had Starkiller creating an explosion "the size of a Star Destroyer."

Lying, now?

No, of course not. Comprehension of facts helps: that Starkiller caused the explosion was never indicative that it was his own energies. It was Palpatine's.

Force-sensitivity doesn't automatically make people resistant to Force-attacks. Unless they were ready for the lightning and had their defenses up, their "power" is irrelevant.

And yes, one hand.

Even if I concede that, you still haven't disproven Palpatine's superiority.

I'm not the one taking shit out of context. We never had Yoda standing there face-to-face with Palpatine on even ground like Starkiller was, or like Yoda was with Dooku. He was surprised by the blast in the room, and took the second one full-on.

Did I say that Yoda was standing face-to-face with Palpatine on even ground? No. I said that he tested the Jedi Master to his limits. Which he did. That you're trying to fabricate some subversion in my posts suggests that you continue to have problems regarding this topic.

I wasn't trying to. I'm putting things in context, which you're just repeatedly and purposefully failing to do.

So, let's get this straight. I never claimed that Yoda stood face-to-face with Palpatine, merely saying that the Jedi Master was strained to repulse the lightning. You come in, guns a blazing to remind me that it never happened. So, the question becomes: why state it? Unless you're more attached to this argument than you'd have us believe.

Secondly, why is Yoda teetering on the edge of the pod, again? You didn't answer me.

Oh, wait. Kota surprised Palpatine by pulling his lightsaber out from his sleeve, therefore he surpassed his defenses, ergo, Kota > Palpatine! Hurray for hypocrisy.

Sorry, no. Getting an attack through =/= overpowering.

Palpatine visibly reacted to Kota in surprise. Did the Acolytes?

LMAO

Crying and conceding defeat? Do you actually remember we had this argument? Oh, wait. "We" didn't. Crimzon and I did, you did absolutely nothing.

When you've handled this topic so many times as I have, you aren't obligated to rush in and handle it yourself.

Apparently, I have a hidden agenda to prove that Bane > Palpatine. I must have missed that...

Your words, not mine. I didn't state as much, though it is suspicious, now that you mention it. May I take this as a confession?

This bullshit is pathetic. If all you can do is try and talk shit, just leave this to Lightsnake. I'm not trying to prove that Bane is more powerful than Sidious, but I'm trying to wrap my head around the staggeringly retarded "argument" you put forth to "prove" that the latter's lightning is better.

Except... you've arguably made one single point in refuting this "staggeringly retarded argument." Are you suggesting that you're incapable of handling such a ridiculous contention?

But, then again, you are competitive about Palpatine's sex life in comparison to that of other Sith Lords, so I shouldn't be too surprised.

'Comprehension', 'Common Sense', and 'The Ability to Read' are no longer in your close circle of "friends" and e-pals, are they, Faunus?

Originally posted by Gideon
No, of course not. Comprehension of facts helps: that Starkiller caused the explosion was never indicative that it was his own energies. It was Palpatine's.

Anyway, my mistake.

Even if I concede that, you still haven't disproven Palpatine's superiority.

Did I say that Yoda was standing face-to-face with Palpatine on even ground? No. I said that he tested the Jedi Master to his limits. Which he did. That you're trying to fabricate some subversion in my posts suggests that you continue to have problems regarding this topic.

Is that clear?

So, let's get this straight. I never claimed that Yoda stood face-to-face with Palpatine, merely saying that the Jedi Master was strained to repulse the lightning. You come in, guns a blazing to remind me that it never happened. So, the question becomes: why state it? Unless you're more attached to this argument than you'd have us believe.

"He said this, but he really mean this, even though there's no f*cking connection between the two!"

Secondly, why is Yoda teetering on the edge of the pod, again? You didn't answer me.

This isn't court, and you're not a prosecutor. Don't waste my time.

Palpatine visibly reacted to Kota in surprise. Did the Acolytes?

Your words, not mine. I didn't state as much, though it is suspicious, now that you mention it. May I take this as a confession?

Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh look. Lightsnake demonstrating his superior fishing skills, presenting us a big, nice and fat Red Herring in his desperate attempt to get away from the topic. Bohoo. Thanks for agreeing that they aren't powerful. I'm going to leave it like that.
[//Quote]
"Many of them were quite powerful indeed."
Yes, Nai. Keep thinking that. No, I'm going to think 'direct proof' is above your worthless opinion.

Yes. Because he will dodge blaster bolts and lightsaber strikes while being asleep and lying on his bed.

Yes, because the force isn't going to do anything CRAZY like warn him and allow him to wake up...Exception of Plagueis-whose apprentice had this funny like ability to conceal himself in the Force, I can't think of many Force users who get caught sleeping.
Besides, does it not make more sense to poison Luke and then kill him? With Palpatine distracting him in the dream, whereafter he snaps awake?

[Quote]
Hey. Look. LIEsnake is on the run again. I could swear I just demonstrated that there isn't a year passing between the events shown in DE II and the events shown in EE.

No matter how you slice it? Sedriss STILL matched Ood Bnar fighting as hard as he could with energy from Ossus's core. No matter how you slice it, they're STILL the most powerful of Palpatine's servants and that includes some extremely powerful Dark Siders like Shadowspawn, Droga, Tremayne, Brandl and Cronal.

Yeah every other Dark Sider is just MILES above the Dark Side Elite despite statements to the contrary! Where's your defense on the Ancient Sith now? I REALLY hope there's a lot of them as a whole wreaking holy vengeance on legions of Jedi, because if Fall of the Sith Empire is any indication, you should really be ready to declare the Ancient Sith badly suck.

Oh, did I forget Ludo's two flunkies who get torn apart by Massassi? When one of them, a Sith COUNCIL MEMBER mind you conducts the brilliant defense of "But you're my servants!"
That sounds like a really powerful Force User! You know, based on all available evidence, it seems like Sedriss kicks the majority of your precious Ancient Siths' asses.

Thanks for repeating my previously made point again (Mara Jade > Dark Jedi elite). If I'll ever develop the desire to own a parrot, you will get the job.

Oh look. Another nice straw man. Nope, dude. I'm suggesting that Ventress and Jerec are more powerful than every single member of the supposed Dark Jedi "Elite".

Let's all give Nai a hand, everyone. Never let it be said truth interferes with his bias and vitriol.

Their spirits at his call. Lmao. The same spirits he does visit on Korriban which are questioning him, because he had only ruled for some decades and therefor shouldn't been able to command those who "held dominion over centuries"? Yes. I'm sure they would give Sidious anything he wants - which is why he still has to go and question them after already having access to their knowledge directly (as you suppose) for at least 30 years. Or can it be that the only quote mentioning his summoning of Sith spirits is hyperbole on the same level with that quote in the DSSB which states that he was "blotting out the stars" and "spread his rule to other galaxies"?

But let's ignore points I've brought up many a time before.
and yeah...there's something hyperbolic about saying 'he could summon them'

And last I recall, Anakin desperately wanted a seat on the Jedi Council because only with that he would be allowed to access said information in the archieves. Aside of that I don't see why anybody would grant Dooku, one of the people who constantly opposed the Council, access to such information.

Creating a holocron is a certain technique, Lightsnake. And given that most of the Sith known to us where quite eager to prolong their own existance (through Force stasis, Alchemy, Clones etc.) one could develop the thought that creating a holocron is one path to "immortality" in a certain sense. And please. Bastilla Shan's father constructed a holocron that he used as journal.

If the technique is so demanding, one should assume that it wouldn't be used for every-day-routine.

Go on and prove it, Lightsnake. Oh. You can't? Unless the knowledge contained in a source is defined in any way, it's worthless in concrete terms. So even if Sidious had a gigantic pile of holocrons in a storehouse on Coruscant, it doesn't matter unless you can come up with any information stored within them.

Oh what, Lightsnake? Are we only blindly thrusting quotes when they say anything that matches our opinion?

Was that you who called me a hypocrite?

See. The matter of fact is this: We don't know what the holocron contained. It could be priceless Ancient Sith knowledge, the personal journal of said Ancient Sith King, or a user manual for Adas's DVD-Recorder.

The fact that Nadd studied it and still sought training under Sadow and that Amanoa as well studied it, and was still defeated by Arca Jeth, actually lead to the suggestion that the knowledge contained within seems to be rather limited.

Says who, Lightsnake? You? I'm afraid. To record things in a holocron you must have access to said holocron, meaning the facts are simply contradicting your personal opinion.

You mean the one where he quotes Publius? Who does nothing but list sources of Ancient Sith knowledge that Sidious had access to, without closer defining when he gained them (which makes them worthless for answering my question) and without specifying the knowledge they contained, making them - by Publius own words - "worthless in concrete terms"? [/B]

Either way, I think I'm done. I've had my point and spelled it clearly and frankly? You're too much a dick to make this even remotely enjoyable.

Originally posted by Faunus
Not all of us have access to the sources, so we rely on the words of those who introduce them to us. I've never seen a single one of the quotes Lightsnake brought in on paper, but I trust him not to lie about them.

Anyway, my mistake.

Then it would behoove you to never question your superiors again.

I'm not trying to. I thought I made that clear.

Good. Then this needn't be brought up again.

Considering you're the one always citing Palpatine's position in his final lightning contest with Mace as being "inferior," one would think it wouldn't be necessary for me to spell this out for you. If Yoda was in a poor position to begin with, he would have a lower "limit" than he might if both he and Palpatine were in equal positions. Meaning, he would have likely fared better against the Sith Lord's onslaught had he not been hanging on to the edge of a metal pod with his feet, in which case his limits would be higher.

Is that clear?

That's precisely the point. Windu is stated to be "inferior" because Palpatine was on his ass, being electrocuted, and attacking an enemy who is his vast superior in physical conditioning. Despite the pain and the fact that Windu has a unique ability to create a superconductive loop (as well as leverage) he is nearly killed. Palpatine withdraws and is actually feigning weakness.

Your comparisons are ridiculous. I said that Palpatine pushed Yoda to his limits. He was in visible pain and effort trying to repulse the lightning. What you have said does absolutely nothing to contradict any of it. Meaning? It's irrelevant.

Here we go again.

"He said this, but he really mean this, even though there's no f*cking connection between the two!"

No, Faunus, but I cover my ass. I didn't say that Palpatine defeated Yoda. I said he pushed him to his limits and nothing you posted contradicts or trivializes that.

It's not relevant, and it's a stupid question, because you know the answer.

This isn't court, and you're not a prosecutor. Don't waste my time.

Yes, just as I thought. For the record? Palpatine disarmed Yoda casually and knocked him off balance. That is why he is teetering. When we're using the duel as an indicator of Palpatine's proficiency with lightning, leaving that part shaded out is a rather grave attempt to shield the truth. It's not like he nearly fell because he broke a hip or someshit and Palpatine merely capitalized on it.

Knock yourself out.

Good. I'm off to watch House. Don't waste my time with this shit even further. If you're going to make a point regarding Yoda or Palpatine's lighting in comparison to Bane's, make it a good one. So far, you've only managed to conflict the status of the acolytes. Everything else? You've accomplished nothing in the face of this "retarded argument."

Originally posted by Gideon
Oh, well... in that case...

[Enyalus] LOLZ NONE OF YOUR ARGUMENT WAS IMPRESSIVE!! NAH NAH BANE'S FEATS BLOW! [/Enyalus]

See? I can do it to. Substantiate why it isn't impressive, sport.

Before I go further, the "tower" you're referring to him destroying - that's in TFU? Caused by Starkiller's explosion/death?

Originally posted by Gideon
Again, I can still do that. Substantiate why he isn't impressive. Because he wasn't on the Council? Jesus Christ, neither was Anakin until Palpatine shoved his ass on it. Is that the hallmark of a failure? Doubt it, since the novelization says that General Kota casually deflected Sith lightning (and then telekinesis) from Starkiller, who is enormously friggin' powerful.

One, I said he wasn't top tier. Not he wasn't impressive. But right, he wasn't on the Council (and was certainly old enough to be, unlike Anakin). It's also implied that he's much weaker than Shaak Ti, which is gauge to his strength right there. In addition, it was Galen's first time taking on a Jedi. Galen is completely unfamiliar dueling an actual Force user, which is totally different from taking on PROXY. (Does he spar with Vader? It doesn't say in the comic.) Still, Galen - who doesn't seem physically powerful, was able to overpower Kota and blind him with his own saber while in the saber lock. Moreover, Starkiller's power (or skill) increases vastly by the time he faces Vader and the Emperor - there's not any proof or reason to think that his lightning is anything special, especially not early on in his duel against Rahm. Despite Galen never having faced a Jedi before and essentially being a "rookie," he would have killed Kota if the floor hadn't gave out.

Originally posted by Gideon
Except the fact that he's dead when the smoke clears... or is survival defined as "dying in an attempt" now?

He takes the full force of Palpatine's lightning, steps forward and grabs the Emperor...then goes the one with the Force/blowing up thing. If the Emperor's lightning was as powerful as you and Lightsnake seem to want everyone to think, it should have blown Galen back on his ass and killed him. It didn't.

Originally posted by Gideon
Well, one assumes that a man who was "barely able to walk" according to the New Essential Chronology might find difficulty in summoning Force energies?

Not if you subscribe to LS's theory, about Palpatine's body not mattering and it not affecting his ability to channel Force energies at all. And all of his power being in his spirit now.

I, personally, do not. I hope you're of like mind in that regard.

Originally posted by Gideon
Right. Don't take shit out of context. He was armed with the Sith Lord's lightsaber, Palpatine was surprised, and he still knocked Kota on his ass.

I'm curious to see where you would rank Kota. As I said, I don't believe him to be top tier. Not on Obi-Wan's level. Not on Shaak Ti's level. The events of TFU take place 17 years after ROTS...making Sidious that much more powerful. To me, Sidious is at least two or three tiers above him in power, making it not much of a feat at all.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Erm. Actually, if you want to suggest that Bane's lightning is more powerful than that of Sidious, it would be your burden of proof.

See Project Holocron page 20 for this supposed feat that DE Sidious fanboys refer to that was busted. And I provide more detailed scans on, I think, page 24. It's a 1 ton cooling unit no larger than anything Vader telekinetically throws at Luke in ESB. It falls on Palpatine's head. And he shrugs it off. Because he's empowered from being on Byss. No disintegration. No lightning at all.

Originally posted by LS
A dying, weakened Palpatine incapable of accessing anything resembling fool power for risk of killing himself? One would think they'd at least attempt it. Preferable alternative to 'die horribly' don't you think?

I thought the inferior clone bodies didn't affect his ability to channel the Force, LS? Come on now, be consistant. Remember your arguments.

Originally posted by LS
Clear enough for you? Oh, let's see some evidence that they'll 'probably' all be able to redirect it considering three quarters of this team are going to die if it hits them and the opponent can direct it however he wants

I'd like to you list any and all powerful Force users that Sidious kills with his Force Lightning. Don't bother with Mace Windu, for obvious reasons. And don't bother with the '3 acolytes powerful enough to resurrect Darth Maul,' because clearly that is where their talents in the Dark Side ended. They were afraid of Vader, even.

Originally posted by LS
What changes in between the time he blasts Luke and summons the Force Storm?
Well...only Luke reaffirming total commitment to the Light, a vicious duel in which Luke becomes an apex of light side power and tells Palpatine to surrender.
If he wanted to kill him BEFORE the duel, why is he continuously saying "Join me! You are MINE!"
You can kinda notice the distance when Palpatine yells "So be it! You will die!"
Metihnks that's the point where he decides Luke's dead and not before.

Once again, you don't get to change your arguments because they suit one particular case and not another. If he wants to kill Luke after, why not disintegrate his lightsaber and finish it right there? Your excuse before was that "he wanted to humiliate him" by unleashing a Force Storm. Now you say he wanted to kill him? Make up your mind. Or better: acknowledge the fact that he couldn't simply disintegrate Luke's saber or anyone possessing a decent Force shield with a modern lightsaber off of a Dark Side enhanced world.

Originally posted by LS
And somehow, I really doubt he'll be incapable of hitting them all with Malacia or morichro. Considering I hear in Medstar, Morichro isn't hard to use on multiple targets, how is he going to have much trouble there?

Yoda also knows morichro. And guess who already has the decaying body and rotting insides? Hint: Not anyone on the team.

Originally posted by LS
Besides superior power and Yoda's total infamiliarity with the attack he's using?

Enlighten us. Which attack is this that one of the most knowledgable Jedi ever with hundreds of years to study Sith holocrons as well would be 'totally unfamiliar' with?

For the record, it's pretty clear that every Sith Lord and apprentice with the exception of maybe Zannah is more powerful than any member of the Dark Side Elite...though that's neither here nor there.

Originally posted by Enyalus

He takes the full force of Palpatine's lightning, steps forward and grabs the Emperor...then goes the one with the Force/blowing up thing. If the Emperor's lightning was as powerful as you and Lightsnake seem to want everyone to think, it should have blown Galen back on his ass and killed him. It didn't.

I thought the inferior clone bodies didn't affect his ability to channel the Force, LS? Come on now, be consistant. Remember your arguments.

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I'd like to you list any and all powerful Force users that Sidious kills with his Force Lightning. Don't bother with Mace Windu, for obvious reasons. And don't bother with the '3 acolytes powerful enough to resurrect Darth Maul,' because clearly that is where their talents in the Dark Side ended. They were afraid of Vader, even.

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Once again, you don't get to change your arguments because they suit one particular case and not another. If he wants to kill Luke after, why not disintegrate his lightsaber and finish it right there?

Your excuse before was that "he wanted to humiliate him" by unleashing a Force Storm. Now you say he wanted to kill him? Make up your mind.

Or better: acknowledge the fact that he couldn't simply disintegrate Luke's saber or anyone possessing a decent Force shield with a modern lightsaber off of a Dark Side enhanced world.

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Yoda also knows morichro. And guess who already has the decaying body and rotting insides? Hint: Not anyone on the team.

[/b]

Enlighten us. Which attack is this that one of the most knowledgable Jedi ever with hundreds of years to study Sith holocrons as well would be 'totally unfamiliar' with?

For the record, it's pretty clear that every Sith Lord and apprentice with the exception of maybe Zannah is more powerful than any member of the Dark Side Elite...though that's neither here nor there. [/B]

Originally posted by Lightsnake
According to Gideon, the TFU novelization says that Galen achieves a state of oneness with the Force there.

Ah. Might need Gideon's explanation on this then, because I was under the impression that he gets struck, comes forward and grabs Palpatine, then goes Oneness with the Force.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Shut. Up. This thread has not left me in any mood to be taunted. If you bothered to look t the rest of it, you'd notice:
A. The clone has been TAMPERED WITH. Sabotaged. He cannot use the Force without fear of killing it and consigning himself to final death.
He can't even get angry for that purpose.

You're right - I didn't read that. I apologize.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Uh, there's no fear to Vader there.
And last I checked, considering Vader's immense force power, inferiority to him in the Force means...nothing.
By this logic, let's hear the powerful Force Users Bane's also killed with lightning.
Besides 'nearly himself.'

IIRC, the acolytes not only thought that Vader was tainted and needed to be replaced, but were afraid of him (resorting to hiding behind Maul, essentially). Since Vader is at least 20% weaker than Palpatine, and being afraid of Vader implies the acolytes being much weaker than him...

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Answered in Project Holocron. You have a bad habit of ignoring my arguments when they hurt one of your cases

No, it really wasn't. It made little sense why Palpatine wouldn't have if he could.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I didn't realize the two were mutually exclusive. He creates a Force storm because he wants to utterly crush Luke and Leia, humiliate them, obliterate the feat...the whole thing there, and he's described as so powerful, he's a 'chaotic nexus' of power right there, calling upon the Dark Side 'as never before.' With that description, if he wanted to, what would be stopping him from blasting Luke or Leia into dust with his lightning besides sadism?

'Utterly crush Luke and Leia'...with a Force Storm directed outside of the ship? And again, this is just after losing his duel and being extremely enraged. I'd imagine what is stopping him from blasting Luke to dust with his Force Lightning is the fact that he couldn't do so. That, and Luke still had his saber and shields to block with - unlike Palpatine, who lacked a hand at that point.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Or better yet, you realized how absolutely flawed this is and drop it as it's been explained to reasonable satisfaction.
And considering overloading Aurra Sing's saber with the Force really isn't tough for Vader and the Force usage centers on the saber and not the shielded person...onus is on you.

Vader needed to hold her saber to do so. And Sing hardly compares in power to Luke or the four Council members in this thread. Bottom line: if he can disintegrate lightsabers anyway, the omniscient writer wouldn't have specified 'on Byss'. He does. Meaning, Palpatine can't.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I was totally unaware that happened in a measured span of 'seconds.'
Unfortunately for Yoda, he's got to use it to break through a superior opponents defenses, who could just as easily hit them with a stasis field ala what Farfalla uses on Bane...a technique that can effect multiple opponents

Hell, by that logic - Yoda performs a Force Sever and that's the end of Sidious. What kind of screwed up argument is that?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
One Palpatine created
Unless Palpatine made a Holocron, discovered the secrets of time travel and left it in the Jedi archives just to freak Yoda out.

Oh, right. The one Palpatine never displays and only writes about. The same guy who lies multiple times throughout DE about multiple things, including his control of Force Storms for one. We're to believe this made up instakill attack why, exactly?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Arguable point when you introduce Darth Bandon, Qordis, possible unknowns as Rivan, Belia Darzu, the Dark Underlord, and others.
And 'pretty clear?' The Ancients as a whole are frankly jokes from Golden Age and Fall. Sedriss displayed more power than a good chunk of Sith as well, being able to match Ood Bnar drawing up energy from Ossus's core.
And it's a general trend Sith Lords>Dark Jedi. There are exceptions to the rule, though. I could rattle off a good list of Dark Jedi kicking the asses of more than one Sith Lord. Jerec, Ventress, Sora Bulq, Sedriss...
And Sedriss, by the by, is a Qel-Droma, explaining his potential and strength in the Force.

I'm going to agree with you to a certain extent. Most of the Ancient Sith didn't impress me. Naga Sadow, though, certainly was one who did. As Corran Horn shows, you don't need exceptional TK to be a great Force-user. He had plenty of other talents and knowledge to compensate for his "brick throwing" feat.

I think it's almost a given that DLOTS like Bandon and Rivan are superior, especially considering Rivan was able to generate a Force Storm with his Darkstaff that transported him to Ruusan.

Originally posted by Enyalus

Ah. Might need Gideon's explanation on this then, because I was under the impression that he gets struck, comes forward and grabs Palpatine, then goes Oneness with the Force.

You're right - I didn't read that. I apologize.

IIRC, the acolytes not only thought that Vader was tainted and needed to be replaced, but were afraid of him (resorting to hiding behind Maul, essentially). Since Vader is at least 20% weaker than Palpatine, and being afraid of Vader implies the acolytes being much weaker than him...

No, it really wasn't. It made little sense why Palpatine wouldn't have if he could.

'Utterly crush Luke and Leia'...with a Force Storm directed outside of the ship? And again, this is just after losing his duel and being extremely enraged. I'd imagine what is stopping him from blasting Luke to dust with his Force Lightning is the fact that he couldn't do so. That, and Luke still had his saber and shields to block with - unlike Palpatine, who lacked a hand at that point.

Vader needed to hold her saber to do so. And Sing hardly compares in power to Luke or the four Council members in this thread.

Bottom line: if he can disintegrate lightsabers anyway, the omniscient writer wouldn't have specified 'on Byss'. He does. Meaning, Palpatine can't.

Hell, by that logic - Yoda performs a Force Sever and that's the end of Sidious. What kind of screwed up argument is that?

Oh, right. The one Palpatine never displays and only writes about. The same guy who lies multiple times throughout DE about multiple things, including his control of Force Storms for one. We're to believe this made up instakill attack why, exactly?

I'm going to agree with you to a certain extent. Most of the Ancient Sith didn't impress me. Naga Sadow, though, certainly was one who did.

As Corran Horn shows, you don't need exceptional TK to be a great Force-user. He had plenty of other talents and knowledge to compensate for his "brick throwing" feat.

I think it's almost a given that DLOTS like Bandon and Rivan are superior, especially considering Rivan was able to generate a Force Storm with his Darkstaff that transported him to Ruusan. [/B]