DE Sidious vs ROTS Yoda, Mace, Anakin, and Obi Wan

Originally posted by Enyalus
Before I go further, the "tower" you're referring to him destroying - that's in TFU? Caused by Starkiller's explosion/death?

The novelization depicts the event as the result of Starkiller entering a state of "one-ness" with the Force and generating explosive energy in a last ditch effort to stop Palpatine and save the fleeing rebel leaders. The comic and video game, on the other hand, depict it as the repulsion of Palpatine's Force energies in an explosive manner. The same as what happened on the Senate pod when the Emperor battled Yoda, except the ensuing explosion was many, many times greater. It destroyed the observation tower.

One, I said he wasn't top tier. Not he wasn't impressive. But right, he wasn't on the Council (and was certainly old enough to be, unlike Anakin). It's also implied that he's much weaker than Shaak Ti, which is gauge to his strength right there. In addition, it was Galen's first time taking on a Jedi. Galen is completely unfamiliar dueling an actual Force user, which is totally different from taking on PROXY. (Does he spar with Vader? It doesn't say in the comic.) Still, Galen - who doesn't seem physically powerful, was able to overpower Kota and blind him with his own saber while in the saber lock. Moreover, Starkiller's power (or skill) increases vastly by the time he faces Vader and the Emperor - there's not any proof or reason to think that his lightning is anything special, especially not early on in his duel against Rahm. Despite Galen never having faced a Jedi before and essentially being a "rookie," he would have killed Kota if the floor hadn't gave out.

Allow me to get this straight: you're basing the assumption that General Kota is weak (or whatever) off of the idea that a.) he wasn't on the Jedi Council and b.) he was implied to be weaker than Shaak Ti. If I may, I will debunk both in one fell swoop.

First, implications mean nothing unless you can corroborate them. You can't; while I may even agree that Shaak Ti is more powerful than Kota, can you prove it conclusively?

Second, that Kota didn't have a seat on the Jedi High Council isn't conclusive proof of his lack of favor. Numerous sources indicate that Qui-Gon Jinn would have sat on the Council had he comported himself with their orthodox methods; he demonstrated the power and wisdom to have a seat there but wasn't given one due to politics. The same for the great Count Dooku. Are they weaker than the Jedi Council members because they weren't considered their peers? No. Let's be honest, my friend, you have no argument.

He takes the full force of Palpatine's lightning, steps forward and grabs the Emperor...then goes the one with the Force/blowing up thing. If the Emperor's lightning was as powerful as you and Lightsnake seem to want everyone to think, it should have blown Galen back on his ass and killed him. It didn't.

I grow tired of those who try to dodge the issue. This is what you said, verbatim:

Originally posted by you
And Galen takes the full force of his lightning (aimed to kill Kota the second time around) and survives it easily enough.

Since Galen died in the attempt and Palpatine walked away unscathed, it debunks the incredibly stupid idea that he "survived it easily" and to suggest parity with the Emperor. Concede the point. And if you want to readdress it, I'd suggest wording things a bit more carefully next time.

Not if you subscribe to LS's theory, about Palpatine's body not mattering and it not affecting his ability to channel Force energies at all. And all of his power being in his spirit now.

I, personally, do not. I hope you're of like mind in that regard.

Palpatine was, considered by Luke Skywalker, "more energy than flesh" and the Dark Empire Sourcebook refers to him as a dark side nexus. That's not the point: the point is that Palpatine's physical condition was ridiculously weak; since his body was dying, with every further application of the Force bringing him closer to death, so that he could barely walk, one can assume that he did not summon all of his great energy on one meager Jedi, since he had more opponents to face before he could claim Anakin Solo, including Luke Skywalker himself.

I'm curious to see where you would rank Kota. As I said, I don't believe him to be top tier. Not on Obi-Wan's level. Not on Shaak Ti's level. The events of TFU take place 17 years after ROTS...making Sidious that much more powerful. To me, Sidious is at least two or three tiers above him in power, making it not much of a feat at all.

That would require a greater discussion. Submit it to Project Holocron, if you're curious. You may spearhead it.

As for the rest, Nai can handle it. But he's not going to be nearly as generous or kind about this as I have been.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Going by feats of some of Palp's lesser servants, though, it says something for the elite

Borby is going to use an assload of space when he could make the same points in two paragraphs.

Gideon, let the Ego-Nexus that is Borby take it.

Originally posted by Faunus
And yet, most of the greatest and most powerful alchemists in the saga lived during or relatively shortly after the reign of the ancient Sith Lords. But somehow, they're all weak?

No one said that the Ancient Sith were "weak." Not even Lightsnake. They're just not "LOLZTHEYWILLOWNTEHPALPYANDTEHLUKE" anymore. All of us have great respect for the major Ancient Sith characters as sources of power and knowledge; the problem is that most of them were assisted by use of Sith arcana and technology: hardly comparable or as impressive to those Force sensitives who are powerful purely from the merit of their own natural potency.

And I thought you didn't care about this subject?

Originally posted by Gideon
No one said that the Ancient Sith were "weak." Not even Lightsnake.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
The Ancients as a whole are frankly jokes from Golden Age and Fall.

Damn. Were they all, however, noted to be great alchemists?

Doubtful.

I'm not calling all of the ancients powerful, but merely refuting LS's strange assertion that they are "as a whole, frankly jokes." Even worse is that he does so while trying to put three individuals on a pedestal based on a line that applies to all dark alchemists. Even the arcana used by the ancient Sith Lords would have required some serious alchemical innovation to create.

Actually Galen's explosion didn't destroy the tower, Sidious' robes were intact in game, his own body was intact, the Storm troopers mysteriously vanished however(disintegrated maybe) Galen is struggling to do what Yoda did and in the end cannot do it and instead reverts to destroying himself. If it destroyed the tower then Vader and Sids would have died from the lack of oxygen. It was actually pretty small considering the Bail and Kota walked like fifty feet and were not effected by the explosion. And they saw it in third person. THe range of the explosion was about a twenty feet diameter

Originally posted by Faunus
Doubtful.

I'm not calling all of the ancients powerful, but merely refuting LS's strange assertion that they are "as a whole, frankly jokes." Even worse is that he does so while trying to put three individuals on a pedestal based on a line that applies to all dark alchemists. Even the arcana used by the ancient Sith Lords would have required some serious alchemical innovation to create.

Should be obvious, I'm a little spiteful at that point.

Though it can't be denied the Ancients minus Naga and arguably Ludo are total jokes in GAots and FotSE. And the recent issue of Legacy didn't do wonders for them.

Originally posted by Faunus
Correct me I'm completely wrong in assuming that you're talking about the three acolytes who "remade" Darth Maul, but the logic used to promote [them] is absolutely absurd. You have one source noting alchemists as a group to be powerful, and from that you deduce that those three are exceptional in one regard or another. And yet, most of the greatest and most powerful alchemists in the saga lived during or relatively shortly after the reign of the ancient Sith Lords. But somehow, they're all weak?

I was more meaning servants like Cronal, Droga, the rest of the Hands and others.

Originally posted by LS
He refers to dueling as nothing more than a game a moment later. If he lashes out with the Force, Luke's saber won't save him. There's no reason to go after the saber, none

He is extremely upset (look at the facial expressions) and tells Luke the Dark Side still has him while accusing him of wanting to rule the galaxy in Palpatine's place (IE, usurp his position). Then he says that he's played along with Luke's saber game to distract him from what was going on below.

"But utter imbecile that you are, you have still failed to understand my power. Look below - look what is happening to your pitiful moon!...My Force Storm is reducing your rebel fleet to dust! All your friends will die!"

So it would seem that, as angry as he was, he still didn't intend to kill Luke or Leia.

Originally posted by LS
Palpatine had one other functioning hand as Luke demonstrated earlier in the comic, one doesn't need a hand to use the Force. And yes, he meant the storm to kill Luke and Leia when he was done with the fleet. Presumably, he'd have let it tear them apart or fling them into the vacuum where he remained safe in it.
and what would stop him from blasting Luke to dust? Avatar states are done and Luke and Leia don't do the whole 'channel the entire Force' thing until after the Force Storm is unleashed

He's literally 10 feet away from Luke and Leia at the time. You're telling me he's going to intentionally let it rip his own ship apart and probably kill himself as well? Recall that he does not have total control over the Force Storms. Not even close. Additionally, look at the page in which he gives the "Jedi dueling games" quote. His hand is extended towards Luke and Leia, with lightning coming off of it. Then, they use Force Sever. I can post the scan if you don't recall specifically or don't have access to it.

Originally posted by LS
Sing kills trained Jedi Masters with little effort, she's not a weakling at all.

I didn't say she was. I said she doesn't compare to Luke or the Council members in power. And I'm right.

Originally posted by LS
No, he says 'on Byss' it's just an afterthought for him. Unless he tries and fails on another place, your argument there isn't a good one.
Meaning...what, he'd just have to wave two fingers instead of one?

No, he says that the use of his Force powers, while on Byss, is more of an afterthought than an exercise. Then the writer, directly afterwards, mentions the lightsaber feat. The implication being that without being empowered by Byss, he can't replicate such a feat. And where is the finger part coming from? I've posted the quote. He says "waves his fingers," making it clear its already more than one finger he's waving.

Originally posted by LS
As we're well aware of thanks to Exar, if the opponent is stronger than the one using Force Sever, it can be resisted.
And DE Palpatine is definitely stronger than Yoda

Conceded.

Originally posted by LS
Gee, because he never states it IN DE from his own mouth and its appearance is chronicles in source materials including Palpatine's writings in his three volumes and out of universe mentions?
I realize Palpatine's a liar and all, but out of universe sources aside, I find it very hard to believe he's lying in his own Dark Side Compendium

It's quoted in the back of an issue of DE. Several pages later, he mentions him being able to do generate Force Storms...which, coincidentally, also kill from afar. Hm...

Moreover, if it is an entirely separate attack, you know it can't be resisted by a powerful Force user how, praytell? Or that it's instant? Because that part isn't ever stated.

Originally posted by LS
Examples?

Massive illusions, incredible battle meditation, one of the most powerful Sith Swords we know of, amulets capable of destroying temples and vaporizing Sith warriors, Alchemical experiments capable of transforming frail creatures into the aforementioned powerful Sith warriors, designing the technology and arcana used to pull the core out of stars using the Force simply by a simple fist gesture, being recognized by "the most powerful of the powerful, THE Dark Lord," as the Dark Lord of the Sith, stalemating a co-DLOTS powerful enough to completely shatter a 50 ft. stone statue with a simple movement, being knowledgable enough to be indirectly responsible for the rise of two of the most powerful Sith Lords in history (Nadd, Kun)...Need I go on?

Originally posted by LS
Knowledge, yes. Talent? I'm doubtful. He performed the star explosion due to his ship and when relative weaklings like Brakiss can manipulate solar flares and possibly destroy suns themselves-and Aleema can quadruple the Sun destroying thing- then it kind of takes some steam from ol' Naga.
That aside, with the exception of Battle meditation and illusions, does he display anything that'd help him in a combat scenario?

He designed the technology and sorcery that the ship uses. That's like holding it against Warb Null for using Sith armor in battle, even though he designed it. Furthermore, let's not twist the facts. Aleema destroyed four suns because she was in a star cluster and was manipulated by Exar to go there in the first place. Naga was not, and had no need to destroy four suns, when one clearly sufficed.

See the Ludo Kressh battle for combat abilities. He carries a Sith Sword capable of killing with one cut (poisoned blade) and "Kun's" amulets. I'm quite sure he's formittable in a battle.

Originally posted by LS
Rivan's backstory is extremely messed up as Jedi vs. Sith now says he was hunted down and killed by the Jedi shortly after fleeing Almas, so jury's kind of out on that.

Meh. That's why sourcebooks suck. 😉

Originally posted by Gideon
The novelization depicts the event as the result of Starkiller entering a state of "one-ness" with the Force and generating explosive energy in a last ditch effort to stop Palpatine and save the fleeing rebel leaders. The comic and video game, on the other hand, depict it as the repulsion of Palpatine's Force energies in an explosive manner. The same as what happened on the Senate pod when the Emperor battled Yoda, except the ensuing explosion was many, many times greater. It destroyed the observation tower.

What you're referring to is on pages 118-121 in the comic, and there's no indication that it's solely Palpatine's energies. In fact, it clearly shows Galen's force abilities as a definitive contributing factor to the explosion on 118. The Emperor aimed to use Force Lightning against Kota, Galen blocks it by stepping in front, but stopping it with his Force shielding (or Force Deflection...similar to what Yoda did). He gets close enough to Palpatine to touch him, turning back Palpatine's own energies....then goes Super Sayian, expands his bubble/shielding and boom, explosion. The LS video game ending also shows this. So it was Galen's energies added to Palpatine's which cause the explosion, and was certainly not a Force Lightning feat by Palpatine which caused the tower's explosion.

Which means that out of these...

Originally posted by Gideon
Palpatine's reflected lightning owns a ****ing tower, disintegrates three Sith acolytes casually, owns Jedi casually (despite the Emperor being upon the brink of death), pushes "teh most powerful Jedi ever!" to his limits absolute limits, and overpowers a Jedi general capable of casually resisting Sith lightning from Starkiller. Not to mention he can maneuver it to avoid his Royal Guardsmen in the heat of battle, striking only his enemies.

Him being able to maneuver his lightning around his guards is impressive, but its something almost any master of Force Lightning should be able to do. Apply what we've learned about the Force from the NJO series and being unable to use basic attacks on the Vong, because they were unable to feel their energy signatures through the Force, and this becomes clear. Palpatine knows what his guards feel like, since he's familiar with them. "Zaap!" Targets everyone whose energies do not feel familiar. The end of that.

Originally posted by Gideon
First, implications mean nothing unless you can corroborate them. You can't; while I may even agree that Shaak Ti is more powerful than Kota, can you prove it conclusively?

*sigh* I'm not trying to, Gideon. You and I, and every other sensible person knows that she is. Do I really need to prove it? Can you quit with the sophistry for a moment and how easily you might be able to twist words around, and instead focus on what is true?

Have you ever read Euthydemus by Plato? It's about two brothers who like to phrase things in such a way that everything has more than one meaning, so that no matter what the other person answers, they look foolish. And it's nothing more than a game with no purpose, which is what the majority of your posts remind me of - especially when you seem to delight in and point out the very fact that you do it.

Excerpt:

Euthydemus: "Now Clinias, which of mankind are the learners, the wise or the ignorant?"
Clinias: "The wise are the learners."
E: "There are people you call teachers, aren't there?"
C: "Yes."
E: "The teachers are teachers of the learners; for example, the music master and the grammar master were teachers of you and the other boys, and you were the learners?"
C: "Yes."
E: "Of course at the time when you were learning, you did not yet know the things you were learning?"
C: "No."
E: "Then you were wise when you did not know these things?"
C: "Certainly not."
E: "If not wise, then ignorant?"
C: "Yes."
E: "So you boys, while learning what you did not know, were ignorant and were learning?"
C: "Yes."
E: "So the ignorant learn, my dear Clinias, not the wise as you suppose."
Dionysodorus (E's brother): "What happened, my dear Clinias, when the grammar man dictated to you? Which of the boys learned the things dictated, wise or ignorant?"
C: "The wise ones."
D: "Then the wise ones learn and not the ignorant, and you answered wrong just now to my brother."

(Continuing)

E: "Do the learners learn what they know, or what they don't know?"
C: "What they don't know."
E: "Very well. Do you know your letters?"
C: "Yes."
E: "All of them?"
C: Yes."
E: "And when a teacher dictates anytihng, does he not dictate letters?"
C: "Yes."
E: "Then he dictates a bit of what you know, if you know them all?"
C: "Yes."
E: "Very well. You do not learn what somoene else dictates, but only the one who does not know letters learns them? Eh?"
C: "No, no, I do learn them."
E: "Then you learn what you know, since you know all the letters."
C: "Yes."
E: "Then you did not answer right."

The entire book consists of such wordplay...Really, you don't need to resort to it. It doesn't impress me in the least. I answer the way I answer because I believe it to be true, not simply for argument's sake.

[/End Platonic Philosophy 101]

Originally posted by Gideon
Since Galen died in the attempt and Palpatine walked away unscathed, it debunks the incredibly stupid idea that he "survived it easily" and to suggest parity with the Emperor. Concede the point. And if you want to readdress it, I'd suggest wording things a bit more carefully next time

No need. I said he survived Palpatine's Force Lightning. Which he does. He explodes himself. That's how he dies. The end.

Originally posted by Gideon
Palpatine was, considered by Luke Skywalker, "more energy than flesh" and the Dark Empire Sourcebook refers to him as a dark side nexus. That's not the point: the point is that Palpatine's physical condition was ridiculously weak; since his body was dying, with every further application of the Force bringing him closer to death, so that he could barely walk, one can assume that he did not summon all of his great energy on one meager Jedi, since he had more opponents to face before he could claim Anakin Solo, including Luke Skywalker himself.

This one, I'll concede. Although if we go by Lightsnake's theory, then again - his ability to channel the Force, regardless of the body's condition, shouldn't matter. Perhaps he needs to word things a bit more carefully.

Originally posted by Gideon
That would require a greater discussion. Submit it to Project Holocron, if you're curious. You may spearhead it.

I would say that there isn't enough evidence to conclusively decide either way. And I think that's what we're after in Project Holocron, conclusiveness.

Originally posted by Gideon
As for the rest, Nai can handle it. But he's not going to be nearly as generous or kind about this as I have been.

I appreciate you not referring to me as 'dense' or 'moron.' 😉 Although since I know you don't need to resort to trolling or flaming to make good arguments, I would say you use such things intentionally to rile others up, affecting the quality of their points. Do I have you pegged yet?

Originally posted by Enyalus

He is extremely upset (look at the facial expressions) and tells Luke the Dark Side still has him while accusing him of wanting to rule the galaxy in Palpatine's place (IE, usurp his position). Then he says that he's played along with Luke's saber game to distract him from what was going on below.

Apply what we've learned about the Force from the NJO series and being unable to use basic attacks on the Vong, because they were unable to feel their energy signatures through the Force, and this becomes clear. Palpatine knows what his guards feel like, since he's familiar with them. "Zaap!" Targets everyone whose energies do not feel familiar. The end of that.

Originally posted by LS
Doesn't the sourcebook say that's exactly what he intends? Well, Luke yes, but likely he'd just wait for Leia to die and then take the child

I don't believe so, but I wasn't exactly looking for that. If you know a quote or can show me where...I'm not going to reread the whole damn Sourcebook. 😉 Did that enough for Project Holocron.

Originally posted by LS
'Not even close?' He has enough to transport someone all across space to Byss.
Either that, or he's furious enough to want to just destroy the fleet before he turns his attention to Luke and Leia

Fine. The 'not even close' comment was uncalled for, brought about via my passionate dislike of any non-ROTJ Sidious incarnation. Still, though...10 ft away, or thereabout. No way he's controlling it that well. Especially when I've already posted, what, 3 quotes saying that he cannot.

Originally posted by LS
He's not releasing anything. Palpatine's entire BODY is crackling with energy in the bit where he's clutching his stump
And they don't use sever immediately...they join together first

I know he didn't release it. But in the scan, it is only his hand which is crackling with lightning...indicating that he might have been taking aim. Also, Luke and Leia were already side-by-side.

Originally posted by LS
No, the implication is just that it's incredibly easy on Byss. And alright. He'd need to wave his hand then?

Considering the saber was 10,000 years old and using an organic crystal, which is far less durable and inferior power-wise to a modern lightsaber, it's my opinion that he can't do so at all. But if he could, it'd take much more effort than simply that, and much more concentration.

Originally posted by LS
Different techniques. The instant kill one focuses on finding someone with the Force and snuffing their life out...there's a bit of a disaprity between that and massive gigantic storms to rip them, their loved ones, their home and their pets apart.
Bit less subtle

LOL! I love you, LS. The pet part was hilarious. Still...why doesn't he use the technique against Brand or other Jedi and people in DE 2 and 3? We never see it on panel. It's not like a quote about Palpatine being the most powerful. There's nothing that explicitly states he has a totally separate attack that can kill instantly.

Originally posted by LS
For starters, it seems to be that when Palpatine focuses, that's it. And it's a technique that he created, leaving the attacked with practically no defense, especially given Palpatine's power

Meh, if you're going to ask me to prove stuff, then I want you to prove this. Any sourcebook will do, preferrably a writer's comments on the matter or a character besides Palpatine's own writings in The Book of Anger.

Originally posted by LS
Ok, bit wrong here:
1. The 'massive illusions' bit is a bit less than impressive when you factor in he's in a Meditation sphere that bolsters his powers, we see Aleema and Akana of the Fallanassi create illusions of similar scale and all
2. Incredible battle meditation can be shared by Lord Kaan, Bastila Shan, Master Oppo Rancisis and Arca Jeth, it's not a great indication of incredible power. Moreover, to my knowledge, Naga has never been confirmed as a BM user. Checking Wookieepedia, he's listed as a possible user
3. Likewise, alchemy isn't a representation of great power. He had a long time for experiments And what 'frail' creatures?
4. Ok, the core out of stars thing? That's cause of the ship. As I said, Brakiss indicates he might be able to do the same with effort
5. Proof of his designing the technology and weaponry? Or the amulets? Or the sword? And 'deadliest Sith Sword?' Where'd that come from? If it's from a KOTOR item description, take those with a grain of salt, consider Freedon Nadd's blaster killed 'more Jedi than any Lightsaber' and he never even MET a Jedi again after he left the order.
6. nadd and Kun have both shown ample evidence they're stronger than Naga. Especially given that Nadd's the one who killed him.
7. The indication with Ludo's statue shattering would be his amulet. Notice it's flaring like that and all when the statue collapses...knowing Ludo, he'd be mortified he 'desecrated' the valley.
8. Err...when did Marka ever recognize him as Dark Lord? Marka appears once, tells the Sith to knock off the stupid infighting and leaves...Naga is crowned much later on. Likely, Marka would've wrung his neck for some of the crap he pulls in the comic.

1. Similar scale? Nah. But I'm not impressed by any illusions, so I agree with the 'not impressive part.'
2. Lord Kaan wasn't a master of BM. He was struggling to keep it up, and pretty much says he isn't a master of the technique when it starts to be countered by a Jedi trained in BM. I don't know much about Ms. Shan, so I'll take your word. And...it doesn't matter if Wookieepedia has confirmed it or not. Have you read the arc? He's clearly using BM.
3. I never said Naga Sadow had 'great power.' Regarding the frail creatures - that was my bad. Massassi are hardly that. But he does perform experiments on them which augment their size, strength, and ability to wield the Dark Side of the Force.
4. It's caused by his ship which uses a Sith Crystal as a focus for Naga Sadow's energies.
5. I said 'one of the deadliest,' first of all. I can't give you conclusive proof right now (maybe it's in a source I have lying around, I will let you know), but logic dictates that he did. In The Fall of the Sith Empire it says he has 'delved into forbidden Sith teachings, and augments his dark side power with long-forgotten Sith traditions.' He's one of the greatest, if not the greatest Sith Sorcerers we see in the mythos. And if others made his amulets and swords and whatnot for him, how come they weren't running things? Why would they hand over such powerful creations?
6. I agree with you. Somewhat...they circumstances surrounding Nadd's killing of Sadow is sketchy. Kun though, I think outclasses Sadow, yes. Then again, he could probably find ways to argument his strength and power to overcome Exar's initial power if given the opportunity.
7. I haven't read Golden Age of the Sith in a while and didn't catch the amulet thing. Thanks.
8. Once again, I stand corrected. Thanks for pointing that out. I kind of ran together The Kun arc with Sadow's run.

Originally posted by LS
Source that he designed it?

*points above to his version of "logic", then waves his hand* "Republic credits will do fine." ....Until I can look through some of my sourcebooks. Probably tonight or tomorrow.

Originally posted by LS
The manipulation detail isn't really covering the fact she surpassed Naga's feat.

She was in a star cluster! Obviously, there are more suns around. Nada wasn't in such a place. There weren't multiple suns around. Not like he needed them. Plus, you honestly believe that Aleema > Sadow in power? And that her control of his ship and technology is superior to his? Let's be real.

Originally posted by LS
Noticeably neither decide to start maniacally blasting one another and it really would've helped Ludo when he was on the ground

...They didn't want to end up ruining the tombs on Korriban? Clearly they both had amulets that could cause massive damage. That's the only explanation they didn't bother using them. Or PIS.

Originally posted by LS
Don't forget, we have NOT seen what Bane's lightning can do to someone who isn't force sensitive either

I think you meant to say 'who is Force sensitve'? I don't recall right now (and I could check, but **** it - it's late), doesn't he kill some Sith assassins with his lightning? Also, it rips through Jedi Master Farfalla's shielding like nothing, and even though Farfalla has his saber, he notes that he'd have been killed by it if Raskta hadn't stepped in and deflected all 12 arcs of lightning. Considering Raskta wasn't that far away and she is extremely fast (Farfalla would also know this), the fact that he considers himself dead if not for her indicates that Bane's lightning would have killed him very quickly. Faster than it would take for Raskta to get back up and charge Bane. Which wouldn't be that long at all. And although Farfalla isn't shown doing much, he was second-in-command of the Army of Light and the most powerful Jedi to escape Ruusan, as well as a Jedi Master. Safe to say he's much more powerful than the three acolytes. Probably Kota level. 😛

Originally posted by LS
Based upon? If this were true, why the heck doesn't Dooku do it to Obi-wan? It'd really be beneficial to some Dark Siders.

I'm under the impression Gideon is referrencing the feat where Sidious kills a room full of stormtroopers while avoiding his own men. Ergo, he has other targets to curve his lightning around and lock onto their force patterns. Dooku's one on one (basically).

Originally posted by LS
Unleashing a massive storm of lightning and manuevering it to not kill any of your guards, don't knock the feat, that's amazingly impressive control and mastery of the technique. if it can be maneuvered so easily why does HETTON dodge it when Bane fires a blast to kill him?
and lightning on its own literally arches away from the Vong unless you can feel them via the Force.

I admitted that it was impressive, but that its a feat any master of Force Lightning should be able to do, and gave my reasoning. The rest has already been answered directly above. 🙂

Meh, I can't edit my post now, but I'll add that in addition to Naga Sadow's other abilities, he has the Force Drain ability. And, according to the Dark Side Sourcebook, his knowledge of Sith Lore is 14, whereas by comparison, Emperor Palpatine's is 15. Not half bad, eh?

Originally posted by Enyalus

I don't believe so, but I wasn't exactly looking for that. If you know a quote or can show me where...I'm not going to reread the whole damn Sourcebook. 😉 Did that enough for Project Holocron.

Fine. The 'not even close' comment was uncalled for, brought about via my passionate dislike of any non-ROTJ Sidious incarnation. Still, though...10 ft away, or thereabout. No way he's controlling it that well. Especially when I've already posted, what, 3 quotes saying that he cannot.

I know he didn't release it. But in the scan, it is only his hand which is crackling with lightning...indicating that he might have been taking aim. Also, Luke and Leia were already side-by-side.

Considering the saber was 10,000 years old and using an organic crystal, which is far less durable and inferior power-wise to a modern lightsaber, it's my opinion that he can't do so at all. But if he could, it'd take much more effort than simply that, and much more concentration.

LOL! I love you, LS. The pet part was hilarious. Still...why doesn't he use the technique against Brand or other Jedi and people in DE 2 and 3?

Meh, if you're going to ask me to prove stuff, then I want you to prove this. Any sourcebook will do, preferrably a writer's comments on the matter or a character besides Palpatine's own writings in The Book of Anger.

1. Similar scale? Nah. But I'm not impressed by any illusions, so I agree with the 'not impressive part.'

2. Lord Kaan wasn't a master of BM. He was struggling to keep it up, and pretty much says he isn't a master of the technique when it starts to be countered by a Jedi trained in BM. I don't know much about Ms. Shan, so I'll take your word. And...it doesn't matter if Wookieepedia has confirmed it or not. Have you read the arc? He's clearly using BM.

3. I never said Naga Sadow had 'great power.' Regarding the frail creatures - that was my bad. Massassi are hardly that. But he does perform experiments on them which augment their size, strength, and ability to wield the Dark Side of the Force.

4. It's caused by his ship which uses a Sith Crystal as a focus for Naga Sadow's energies.

5. I said 'one of the deadliest,' first of all. I can't give you conclusive proof right now (maybe it's in a source I have lying around, I will let you know), but logic dictates that he did.

In The Fall of the Sith Empire it says he has 'delved into forbidden Sith teachings, and augments his dark side power with long-forgotten Sith traditions.' He's one of the greatest, if not [b]the greatest Sith Sorcerers we see in the mythos.

And if others made his amulets and swords and whatnot for him, how come they weren't running things? Why would they hand over such powerful creations?

6. I agree with you. Somewhat...they circumstances surrounding Nadd's killing of Sadow is sketchy. Kun though, I think outclasses Sadow, yes. Then again, he could probably find ways to argument his strength and power to overcome Exar's initial power if given the opportunity.

7. I haven't read Golden Age of the Sith in a while and didn't catch the amulet thing. Thanks.

[/b]

*points above to his version of "logic", then waves his hand* "Republic credits will do fine." ....Until I can look through some of my sourcebooks. Probably tonight or tomorrow.

[/b]

She was in a star cluster! Obviously, there are more suns around. Nada wasn't in such a place. There weren't multiple suns around.

Not like he needed them. Plus, you honestly believe that Aleema > Sadow in power? And that her control of his ship and technology is superior to his? Let's be real.

[/b]

...They didn't want to end up ruining the tombs on Korriban? Clearly they both had amulets that could cause massive damage. That's the only explanation they didn't bother using them. Or PIS.

[/b]

I think you meant to say 'who is Force sensitve'? I don't recall right now (and I could check, but **** it - it's late), doesn't he kill some Sith assassins with his lightning?

Also, it rips through Jedi Master Farfalla's shielding like nothing, and even though Farfalla has his saber, he notes that he'd have been killed by it if Raskta hadn't stepped in and deflected all 12 arcs of lightning. Considering Raskta wasn't that far away and she is extremely fast (Farfalla would also know this), the fact that he considers himself dead if not for her indicates that Bane's lightning would have killed him very quickly.

Faster than it would take for Raskta to get back up and charge Bane. Which wouldn't be that long at all.

And although Farfalla isn't shown doing much, he was second-in-command of the Army of Light and the most powerful Jedi to escape Ruusan, as well as a Jedi Master. Safe to say he's much more powerful than the three acolytes. Probably Kota level. 😛

[/b]

I'm under the impression Gideon is referrencing the feat where Sidious kills a room full of stormtroopers while avoiding his own men. Ergo, he has other targets to curve his lightning around and lock onto their force patterns. Dooku's one on one (basically).

[/b]
pQuote]
I admitted that it was impressive, but that its a feat any master of Force Lightning should be able to do, and gave my reasoning. The rest has already been answered directly above. 🙂 [/B][/QUOTE]
If that is the case, why the heck does Bane not angle his lightning and turn Hetton into a smoldering corpse rather than let the old man pull off his matrix jump?

Your assumption it's somehow a simple thing when it has never been duplicated by any other user of Force Lightning is a bit...odd.

Originally posted by LS
He just has to reject them into space. Either way, he's pissed enough to destroy the fleet first

'Reject them into space'? They're inside of his ship. Which is sealed....He unseals the ship, and gets sucked out with them. Or does his uber Force power prevent that, too?

Originally posted by LS
He's just wagging his hands at them with energy. For all we know that's normal when he sends at a Force Storm given his entire body was rippling with it a moment ago.
If he was 'taking aim' we've seen him release energy with alarming speed before and he seems to just be mocking them with the whole "I AM the Dark Side!"

This makes sense. And is plausible. Still, it's speculation either way.

Originally posted by LS
Issue here is that a 10,000 year old saber won't be weak at all. The Jedi had long mastered the art of saber making

But they didn't start using more powerful artificial crystals until, what, 4,000 BBY?

Originally posted by LS
Let's assume that since it's a technique that requires both extreme skill in the force and lots of rage, he couldn't use it for fear of his already nearly dead body dying on him on the spot.

That's a lot of hypotheticalness (Like the word?)

Originally posted by LS
Sith battle meditation doesn't enhance the morale or fighting ability of your troops, it crushes the opposition's spirits...read the descrip of Kaan's in PoD.

Yes, I get that. But once the Jedi shows up and counters his meditation, Kaan admits that it isn't something he specializes in and the Jedi he's facing probably was a specialist in Battle Meditation.

Originally posted by LS
Ability to wield the Dark Side? Not totally sure of that. There seems little difference between them in the millenia in regards to force ability. Granted, he augmented their size and strength, which demonstrates alchemical skill

Let's not forget him creating that gigantic 'Sith wyrm.' Quite a feat of alchemy/sorcery.

Originally posted by LS
The ONLY mention we have of a Sith EVER creating a blade is Tritos Nal creating a weapon for his friend Lord Garu of the Sith Council

So we assume that everyone else just found their stuff? That's a stretch, don't you think? Keep in mind that basically everyone in the modern era gets their items and knowledge from the Ancient Sith. You're implying that the Ancient Sith get all their stuff from the original Jedi Exiles? I don't think I can refute that. I just find it difficult to believe.

Originally posted by LS
I'd rank Kun well above him. And while it seems Naga's a bit of a firebrand amongst the council, do we have any substance on this? All of them are practicing their own alchemical things on themselves, too.

Well, I had using the RPG stats, but the Dark Side Sourcebook states that Naga Sadow's "Enhance Ability" is +14, which is the second highest out of anyone. Behind Marka Ragnos' +19 and ahead of Exar Kun's +13. No one else is even close in that regard. In addition to his amulets and Sith Sword, he's also got a Sith talisman and Sith armor, so...I'd also say those amp his abilities by a great deal.

Originally posted by LS
For all we know, he got them from his predecessors as leftovers from the reign of the Exiles. As I said, we have mention of Tritos Nal crafting a weapon for Garu. The implication is that other smiths might exist

How likely do you think that is, given the fact that Naga Sadow is a top tier Sith sorcerer par excellence?

Originally posted by LS
And Nadd, recall, is powerful enough in the Dark Side and has used it so much his skin's started to decay a bit

The skin decay is due to using the Dark Side too frequently. I don't think it has much to do with power. Naga's amulets and whatnot would ensure that he wasn't channeling too much of that power directly through his body - so anyone using a lot of said enhancements shouldn't have the decaying issue.

Originally posted by LS
The nova he blows up is two suns

Shaddup! You get my drift.

Originally posted by LS
Of course not. Just that her ability with the ship with so little effort kind of puts the whole power thing there in doubt

Sadow never struggles or strains over it, either. And it's most likely he's the freakin' one who made the Sith crystal, given his sorcery abilities. If not, then yeah, I think he'd have picked it up from the Exiles.

Originally posted by LS
It's that versus DYING and considering they have no problem slamming their swords into the tomb walls...or at least get in a position so that the beam goes into empty air.

Right. So. PIS then.

Originally posted by LS
'Force patterns?' Nobody else in that room is force sensitive. Nothing indicates he's locking on either...and little indicates one can manuever lightning to THAT extent with anything resembling ease.

Everything has patterns in the Force. See the entire NJO series for further explanation. Also, what's to manuever? You've never heard of the Chain Lightning ability they have in most games? He fills the room with lightning targeting it to hit every unfamiliar energy signature in the room. That's that. It's a great feat. But like I said, anyone who has mastered Force Lightning (or rather, Force Storm - I worded that poorly) should be able to do so.

Originally posted by LS
If that is the case, why the heck does Bane not angle his lightning and turn Hetton into a smoldering corpse rather than let the old man pull off his matrix jump?

Cause like I said regarding your Obi-Wan example, Hetton is one guy. There are no other targets, and he's not using Force Storm. Lightning fires, lightning misses. Pretty straight forward. Also, Hetton's dodging in a pretty exceptional manner, as you pointed out. Stormtroopers, though? Yeah, you get where I'm going here.

Originally posted by Enyalus

'Reject them into space'? They're inside of his ship. Which is sealed....He unseals the ship, and gets sucked out with them. Or does his uber Force power prevent that, too?

This makes sense. And is plausible. Still, it's speculation either way.

But they didn't start using more powerful artificial crystals until, what, 4,000 BBY?

That's a lot of hypotheticalness (Like the word?)

Yes, I get that. But once the Jedi shows up and counters his meditation, Kaan admits that it isn't something he specializes in and the Jedi he's facing probably was a specialist in Battle Meditation.

Let's not forget him creating that gigantic 'Sith wyrm.' Quite a feat of alchemy/sorcery.

So we assume that everyone else just found their stuff? That's a stretch, don't you think?

Keep in mind that basically everyone in the modern era gets their items and knowledge from the Ancient Sith. You're implying that the Ancient Sith get all their stuff from the original Jedi Exiles? I don't think I can refute that. I just find it difficult to believe.

Well, I had using the RPG stats, but the Dark Side Sourcebook states that Naga Sadow's "Enhance Ability" is +14, which is the second highest out of anyone. Behind Marka Ragnos' +19 and ahead of Exar Kun's +13. No one else is even close in that regard. In addition to his amulets and Sith Sword, he's also got a Sith talisman and Sith armor, so...I'd also say those amp his abilities by a great deal.

How likely do you think that is, given the fact that Naga Sadow is a top tier Sith sorcerer par excellence?

The skin decay is due to using the Dark Side too frequently. I don't think it has much to do with power. Naga's amulets and whatnot would ensure that he wasn't channeling too much of that power directly through his body - so anyone using a lot of said enhancements shouldn't have the decaying issue.p/Quote]
Palpatine had a bunch of Sith amulets himself...he even gave one to Vader under his glove-Source: Evil Never Dies. It didn't seem to prevent the whole...wrinkly thing
[Quote]

Shaddup! You get my drift.

Sadow never struggles or strains over it, either. And it's most likely he's the freakin' one who made the Sith crystal, given his sorcery abilities. If not, then yeah, I think he'd have picked it up from the Exiles.

Right. So. PIS then.

Everything has patterns in the Force. See the entire NJO series for further explanation. Also, what's to manuever? You've never heard of the Chain Lightning ability they have in most games?

He fills the room with lightning targeting it to hit every unfamiliar energy signature in the room. That's that. It's a great feat.

But like I said, anyone who has mastered Force Lightning (or rather, Force Storm - I worded that poorly) should be able to do so.

Cause like I said regarding your Obi-Wan example, Hetton is one guy. There are no other targets, and he's not using Force Storm. Lightning fires, lightning misses. Pretty straight forward. Also, Hetton's dodging in a pretty exceptional manner, as you pointed out.

Again: Even when used against multiple targets, there is NO record of any other Force user pulling this off. Palpatine's feat is unique and nothing suggests Force Lightning operates how you surmise. In every other instance, it's just what you fire and intensify and that's that

Oh my god, Lightsnake. Before you suffer from a heart-attack, I will try to keep it a little bit more civil. I won't read to that huuuuge amount of text you came up with (I noticed the constant Red Herrings and ad hominem arguments - they aren't worth my time), and just go through this via keywords.

Let's defend against force lightning

In contrary to your statements, Lightsnake, putting your lightsaber in the way won't provide any defence against force lightning.

a) You are aware of the fact that lightning comes flying at the target in literally metre wide arcs. Unless laser beams nowadays magnetically pull electricity towards them (and believe me - they don't), most of the lightning would still pass the blade (which is only some centrimetres wide) and hit the guy holding the lightsaber. Doesn't happen.

b) Whenever we see force lightning being blocked with a blade, the lightning arcs do focus on the lightsaber, surrounding the entire weapon which means that the arcs do initially pass the saber but are focused back on it after that. The only logical explanation for this is the force user holding the blade is actually using the force to focus the metre wide arcs on the centrimetre wide blade. Anything else won't work. So even to defend yourself against force lightning with a lightsaber, you would need knowledge to redirect the arcs onto the weapon - otherwise you're just getting toasted.

Now let's deal with the idea that you need to encounter a technique first to defend yourself against it. Frankly: It doesn't matter. And the reason why this doesn't matter can be found on p.84 of The Essential Guide to the Force. What you can find there is Plo Koon descriping his use of force lightning, which includes him saying that: "Like other Jedi, I learned of force lightning in the Jedi Temple. Yet notice that he learned the ability before he was chosen to join the Council, apparently on Jedi Knight status. So, as Plo Koon had access to it and it apparently was common knowledge among the Jedi, it would be rather stupid to assume that they - especially after they learned that the Sith are still around, who use that ability as one of their main weapons - did not to develop any defence against it.

Aside of that you might take into consideration that the idea that somebody could put up some defence against force lightning didn't pop up in the continuum before AotC where Obi-Wan (saber) and Yoda (bare hands) manage to do the job. So in times of DE, the idea that somebody could defend himself against it didn't even exist. Hence we see nobody being able to do the job.

ROTS Sidious VS DE Sidious

Well. I have to admit that I'm totally disappointed with you on that topic, Lightsnake. Face it: You can't define the knowledge Sidious had in RotS as well as you can't define the knowledge he gained after it and therefore you can't never even make an educated guess on how much knowledge he might have gained. It's entirely irrelevant in concrete terms, that source X went into his possesion, until you can clearly define the knowledge stored in that source.

And even if you could do the job, you from there would have to draw [absurd] conclusions to his powerlevel. So basically you were attempting to argue based on three unknowns: Sidious RotS knowledge, the additional knowledge he gained between RotS and DE/EE and the influence of that knowledge on his power-level. Actually you should be aware of the fact that this doesn't make any sense at all.

The Dark Side Elite – powerful?

And another point where you have just to face the facts, Lightsnake. All sources that descripe the Dark Side elite are dating back to the early or mid 90s. How many Dark Siders aside of Sidious and Vader where known at that point in time? We didn't have any idea about the Emperor's Hands (Mara Jade aside), Jerec and his Dark Jedi weren't introduced into the continuum and the same is the case with all Dark Siders appearing in the PT era as well as all other Dark Side servants Sidious had.

So what does a quote tell us that lists them as Sidious most powerful servant back on that date? The only other Force users we knew off, that served the Emperor at that point in time, where Joruus C'Baoth (already killed in times of DE) and Mara Jade (not his servant any longer at that point in time), which means that there are no other Dark Siders that such a quote could refer to – means that the Dark Side Elite has simply no contestants. And the statement that they are “quite powerful”? What does that say? It's an arbitrary statement that doesn't include any closer definition. Going by what we see most of those people (Kam and Sedriss excluded) are plain and simply walking dartboards that get pwned by every halfway decent warrior crossing their way. Yet you simply can't use the feats of two members of the group (one being their leader, the other being somebody that grew up under the tutalage of a Jedi Knight) to determine the abilities of every group member.

EE Sidious – weak?

Apparently you are simply joking, Lightsnake. I know that the Emperor wasn't in a good condition in EE. Point: Since when does once physical state affect his ability to use the force? King Ommin didn't even have bones and managed to floor Jedi (and Jedi Masters) without much effort. Yoda was 900 years old and barely able to walk without a cane, which doesn't stop him from kicking the ass of everybody he opposes during the PT. And now you do really want to tell me that, because using the force speeds up his aging process (which is far away from killing him instantly) his abilities are limited?

Apparently he had no fear to kill himself using force manouvers, going by the fact that he attempts to force probe Leia in the Millenium Falcon with the force (across the Galaxy – without any reason to do so since he knew where she was). He also executes that Officer who failed him with force lightning, where he could easily have used his lightsaber or simply ordered his execution. And you really think he won't use all he could [which is still the full extend of his power to get rid of the Jedi protecting the child that he wanted to possess? Especially even if he would have died in the process, that would have left his spirit right next to said child?

That aside from you exeggerating his weakness by far. He couldn't hardly walk? Didn't appear to me that way when he ran across the room to get Anakin out of Leias hand just before Han shoots him.

Sidious vs the four Jedi

And with this, we're back at the original topic. Taking your first scenario where Sidious, as you suppose, would either create a huge storm of lightning or redirect the lightning around the Jedi's lightsaber.

A storm of force lightning wouldn't do the job, as, if the Jedi can draw lightning to their weapons or (in Yoda's case) hands, it will be drawn right there. Yet if Sidious attacks them all at once, he can just individually attack every Jedi present with just 25 % of his actual power. So logically, to overpower Mace or Yoda with that, he must have become four times as powerful as he was in RotS.

The second option (redirecting the lightning around their sabers) also won't work, assuming that my interpretation above is correct. Because he would then have to overpower the Jedi's efforts to draw the lightning onto the blade individually, meaning he again has to overpower them all simultaneously with TK (his redirection of the lightning VS their effort to direct it to their weapons), this while generating the lightning. So in this case, he not only does have to perform five force movements simultaneously, he also has to overpower all for Jedi simultaneously. Don't think that he can do that – at least there is nothing to suggest that he can.

Which leaves us with his instakill ability. Can you remind me, Lightsnake, when he used that on a force user? Because, as you see, whenever he is confronted with opponents throughout the entire saga, he uses force lightning as direct attack. If he could simply instakill people right and left, why would he use force lightning at all? And even then he's confronting some of the most powerful individuals in the entire saga here. Do you really think he could easily instakill them, given that any of them has an inherent force defence? You see: Aleema Keto easily managed to hit one of her servants with a Sith Magic attack that instantly burned flesh and skin off the victim down to his bones. When she attempts the same with Exar Kun, the Sith Lord pretty much walks right through the attack and blasts her through the room. In the same manner he get's just put on his ass for a split second by the most powerful Light Side technique there is, coming from a guy who apparently owned Ancient Sith in combat with that ability.
If we would accept the premise that instakill = instakill, no matter against whom a technique is used, we would also have to assume that Aleema Keto can kill anybody with her attack (despite facts suggesting otherwise), that NJO Luke can own anybody with his “green sparks” instakill. And for this fight, we would have to assume that Yoda can strip anybody from the Dark Side with his “force light” attack (also a pretty absurd premise), which would than result in him instakilling Yoda while Yoda in turn strips him from his Dark Side abilities.

I think Sidious can be lucky if he manages to kill one of the Jedi, or possibly Anakin and Obi-Wan, as they would be the weakest link there, but after this, he is lost. And notice that this already is an extremely generous suggestion, considering you would find it extremly hard to come up with proof for him being able to take out even one of that individuals anywhere fast.