Project Holocron

Started by Gideon51 pages
Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
So basically palpatine, of all the SW characters has the highest force mastery?

By taking it all into consideration, yes. He has mastered a greater scale of Force knowledge than any one individual in the whole of the mythos, has studied the Force in all of its guises, and is powerful enough to develop new techniques at his very leisure. He has mastered a 'drain' on par with Darth Nihilus's own and the Force Storms, which are peerless in terms of potential for destruction. There are none who are his equal, there.

I have no doubt that Sidious has the most force knowledge or mastery than anyone else but is he the most powerful force user that ever was according to the canon?

According to lucas, had anakin achieved his full potential, his power levels and potency would be twice of that of DE sidious(assuming thats sidious at his peak).

But he does not exist so...well...theres always an alternate timeline.

Makes me wonder what happens if luke really joined vader in TESB, or if marek and vader really killed sidious, or if mace and anakin killed sidious.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
According to lucas, had anakin achieved his full potential, his power levels and potency would be twice of that of DE sidious(assuming thats sidious at his peak).

But he does not exist so...well...theres always an alternate timeline.

Makes me wonder what happens if luke really joined vader in TESB, or if marek and vader really killed sidious, or if mace and anakin killed sidious.

ya but we are looking at what is in the canon

Originally posted by Gideon
By taking it all into consideration, yes. He has mastered a greater scale of Force knowledge than any one individual in the whole of the mythos, has studied the Force in all of its guises, and is powerful enough to develop new techniques at his very leisure. He has mastered a 'drain' on par with Darth Nihilus's own and the Force Storms, which are peerless in terms of potential for destruction. There are none who are his equal, there.

i would argue that Luke's massive illusion feats, and his ability to "anchor himself in the very heart of the force" would put him in the same neighborhood (mostly the illusions,) in a different category, less destructive to be sure, but do we have any proof that one takes more force mastery than the other?
and also, knowledge doesn't always translate into mastery.
finally, if you are going to talk about top force knowledge, you have to consider master yoda, who regrettably never displays(because he has no reason to) the vast amounts of knowledge he has undoubtedly collected after 8 + centuries as head of the jedi order with the jedi archives at his disposal.

Originally posted by truejedi
i would argue that Luke's massive illusion feats, and his ability to "anchor himself in the very heart of the force" would put him in the same neighborhood (mostly the illusions,) in a different category, less destructive to be sure, but do we have any proof that one takes more force mastery than the other?

Um. No. Look, I know there's this cabal out there who thinks that I have this major hate-on for Luke Skywalker, but I really don't, I'm just telling you facts.

First, Swarm War confirms that Skywalker's knowledge and mastery of illusions are inferior to Jacen; Solo uses a "memory rub" on Ben, a type of illusion taught to him by the followers of the White Current, of which Skywalker is totally ignorant of.

Second, Skywalker is not in the same neighborhood as Sidious or Yoda in terms of Force knowledge. He's not even in the same city. The majority of the Jedi and Force sensitive knowledge was monopolized by the Emperor, purged, or deliberately misinformed. He is a mere novice, in the grand scheme of things, when it comes to knowledge.

and also, knowledge doesn't always translate into mastery.

When you are explicitly stated to have mastered all that you've learned, it does. 😉

finally, if you are going to talk about top force knowledge, you have to consider master yoda, who regrettably never displays(because he has no reason to) the vast amounts of knowledge he has undoubtedly collected after 8 + centuries as head of the jedi order with the jedi archives at his disposal.

Yoda is undisputed as a master of Jedi knowledge. But Palpatine studied the Force "in all of its aspects."

Originally posted by Gideon
Um. No. Look, I know there's this cabal out there who thinks that I have this major hate-on for Luke Skywalker, but I really don't, I'm just telling you facts.
LOL anti-phanbboy!1!! u r teh LOOOKH haitr!

Originally posted by Gideon
Um. No. Look, I know there's this cabal out there who thinks that I have this major hate-on for Luke Skywalker, but I really don't, I'm just telling you facts.

First, Swarm War confirms that Skywalker's knowledge and mastery of illusions are inferior to Jacen; Solo uses a "memory rub" on Ben, a type of illusion taught to him by the followers of the White Current, of which Skywalker is totally ignorant of.

Second, Skywalker is not in the same neighborhood as Sidious or Yoda in terms of Force knowledge. He's not even in the same city. The majority of the Jedi and Force sensitive knowledge was monopolized by the Emperor, purged, or deliberately misinformed. He is a mere novice, in the grand scheme of things, when it comes to knowledge.

When you are explicitly stated to have mastered all that you've learned, it does. 😉

Yoda is undisputed as a master of Jedi knowledge. But Palpatine studied the Force "in all of its aspects."

thanks for clearing it up, works for me. I would be the first to admit my knowledge of sidious and some of the ancient sith is pretty low, because most of their stories aren't novels, they are comics and such, so i'll concede on all of those points b/c i dont have the knowledge of the quotes to counter.

Originally posted by truejedi
thats a lot of a>b>c logic in those first few paragraphs

Yeah Ragnos' power is mostly implied, we dont have many feats to judge him by. Unlike Luke who has a whole library dedicated to his force exploits. But implied power can be just as persuasive evidence as judging by feats.

And for more of Ragnos implied power, the golden age of the sith was a time when people were actually inventing techniques as opposed to learning them in some long forgotten holocron. The ancient sith had techniques to make a star go supernova, this is beyond anything that modern force users have done. And even if some technology was being used to aid Sadow in that feat, it still shows that the ancient sith had an incredible understanding of the force, and by virtue of being the top dog DLOTS for over 100 years and being quoted as 'the most powerful of the most powerful' its obvious that Ragnos was the greatest of them all.

Originally posted by Enyalus

Wasn't he able to effortly go into an avatar state to duel Luke? If that's taken into account and/or counts, and considering that the Dark Side's strength is more than the Light Side's...

Well apparently this fight was under 'ambiguous circumstances'. The force could of chosen its 'champion' of both the light and dark side, so these feats could of had nothing to do with the power of the individuals involved.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
The ancient sith had techniques to make a star go supernova, this is beyond anything that modern force users have done. And even if some technology was being used to aid Sadow in that feat, it still shows that the ancient sith had an incredible understanding of the force, and by virtue of being the top dog DLOTS for over 100 years and being quoted as 'the most powerful of the most powerful' its obvious that Ragnos was the greatest of them all.

It was a ship. A ship.

Last I checked, the Imperials also used a ship to make a star go nova.

😐

Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
It was a ship. A ship.

Last I checked, the Imperials also used a ship to make a star go nova.

😐


All it states is that Sadow used technology to help him. It doesnt specify the ship, not that it matters. It was a force technique used not some laser cannon. Also I have to call bs on the imperials blowing up a star unless you can provide a source.

i think the sun crusher does that

the Sun Crusher could destroy an entire star system by causing its star to turn into a supernova. source from wookieepedia and the JA trilogy.

yep i was right

That Aleema, a relative weakling, was capable of replicating Sadow's feat to a FAR greater extent....it casts some doubts on the power behind it

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Also I have to call bs on the imperials blowing up a star unless you can provide a source.

Considering in the Jedi Academy series Kyp Durron used the Sun Crusher to make a star go super nova and raped the Carida star system with it... I don't see what the problem.

And yes, Aleema managed to do the exact same as Naga Sado's, and, ever so coincidentally, did it using the same ship.

Alright your point about the sun crusher is granted I just read about it, though that ship merely fires a torpedo into the core of a star, where as Sadow is clearly shown to manipulate force energies to blow up the star, look here.
This thread is about the force, not torpedos or laser cannons.

@ LS Yes aleema could do it also, Im not disputing that Sadow had help in blowing up the star. My original point was that if the ancient sith were capable of designing technology to aid in such feats, they obviously had a tremendous knowledge of the force.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Alright your point about the sun crusher is granted I just read about it, though that ship merely fires a torpedo into the core of a star, where as Sadow is clearly shown to manipulate force energies to blow up the star, look here.
This thread is about the force, not torpedos or laser cannons.

My point is that using technology to "aid" in the destruction of blowing up a star does not necessarily reflect upon the character's actual strength. I'll give it to you though that his knowledge of the force itself is probably immense.

Originally posted by Gideon
When you are explicitly stated to have mastered all that you've learned, it does. 😉

Where exactly is that stated? We know that he was "believed" (which begs the question, by whom?) to have mastered nearly all known powers, forgotten ones, and created new ones at his leisure, and we know he studied (studied, not mastered) the Force in all its guises, but where is it explicitly stated that he mastered absolutely all of the knowledge that he possessed?

As for your "assessment," it's really not anywhere near as clear cut as you'd like to think.

Firstly, knowledge =/= mastery. It's your knowledge of the Force, and your control over it that defines your mastery over it. His studies in and knowledge of the Force, as I've almost always acknowledged, is certainly more encompassing than that of anyone else in the mythos, but his control of the Force hasn't shown to even come close to some of the other characters in the mythos.

Darth Bane for one, displayed the ability to fill up a room capable of housing hundreds of students with a storm of force lightning with a single burst of energy, all while still a Sith initiate, and not an hour after having learnt the technique in the first place (a display of mastery with the technique that rivals Palpatine's best showing after decades of growth and refinement with it).

He's shown himself capable of energy absorption throughout all part of his body rather than just his hands (such as his face and back), the ability to store it for long durations of time and protect his internal organs from it, and the ability to redirect it across an entire planet (which would require that he be able to sense out the landscape across the planet with the Force in the first place).

His telepathic resistance is of such a high level that Kaan's manipulations -- which were capable of keeping the entire BoD under control, which included multiple notably powerful Sith Lords such as Kas'im, Quordis, Kopekz, and Seviss Vaa -- "had no more effect than a rusted knife scraping against the hide plates of a Halurian ice-boar."

He was capable of resisting one of the deadliest poisons in the Galaxy (something that the dark side is explicitly stated to not be very effective at), and this after having been unaware that it was in his body for most of the time until it began to maximise on its deadly effect.

When faced with eight Sith Umbaraan Assassins who had trained their entire lives to use the Force to shield themselves in it, he showed himself capable of completely revealing there presences with a single wave of intangible dark side energy.

His mastery as a seer is so great that he can see "far into the future," and he can apparently do this at will whereas all other seers in the mythos have only ever had visions come to them in situations beyond their control.

And most notable, of course, is his telekinesis, which had shown itself capable of absolutely crushing the likes of the highly ranked and powerful Quordis, breaking through his defences "as if they weren't there," the ability to affect vast areas of landscape with simply force pushes, and eight years into his career, five years before his current state at the end of Ro2, the ability to use it on the subatomic level, a level of control that's completely unprecedented and surpasses that of any other by about ten miles.

His mastery has certainly shown itself to be greater and wider encompassing than Palpatine's (he's displayed mastery in energy channelling, Force defence, telepathic resistance, Force sensing, precognition, telekinesis, Force lightning, resisting poisons; and the ability to use the Force on the subatomic scale, and channel it across entire planets) and if you want to get back to Force knowledge, which is only half of the puzzle anyway (if that), he possesses all of Revan's knowledge via his holocron (which surpassed all of the teachings in the Korriban archives, and possessed both knowledge in the dark side and light side), and had soon learnt all of it (as directly stated), as well as that of Freedon Nadd, which contained all of Sadow's knowledge, with which he had even longer time to learn from. While he's had far less time to learn from such knowledge than Palpatine has, his improvement rate has shown itself to be astronomically greater than that of anyone else, as demonstrated with his early lightning display, as well as with the above mentioned time it took him to learn the entirety of Revan's holocron.

Palpatine on the other hand hasn't shown mastery anywhere near as widely encompassing as Bane, his control hasn't even come within lightyears, and he's only ever demonstrated the ability to use the Force over such distances with the aid of Sith focusing crystals and the like, such as in Sithisis (which would imply that he relied on such devices). His knowledge base is certainly far greater, in many ways, but unlike Bane, his exact magnitude of knowledge hasn't in any way been defined at all, and he certainly can't be said to have ever been able to learn an entire holocron's worth of knowledge, let alone one the size of Revan's.

Conclusion: Bane has demonstrated the unaided ability to channel the Force with a range that Palpatine has never himself demonstrated, control that eclipses that of any other display by miles, wider encompassing mastery (in areas such as foresight -- which Palpatine was explicitly stated to be useless at; the reason why he relied on the Prophets of the dark side -- and obscure areas such as telepathic resistance), and while his knowledge base certainly doesn't compare, it's extremely formidable in its own right, and unlike Palpatine, the magnitude of knowledge he's learned from his sources can be properly defined. By virtue of existing information, Bane possesses the superior mastery of the Force, and by no small margin.

More on topic, Luke has displayed the ability to telepathically contact jedi across the Galaxy at will, with no notable amount of effort required. When has Palpatine demonstrated such mastery?

And the power that Luke sensed in Dolph, that was compared with Palpatine's, was his developed power. As said, Luke believed Kyp's potential to surpass his own (meaning it at the very least compares, given the vast methods with which Jedi can sense such things), and has demonstrated unaided potency miles above Sidious with far less training, and at a far younger age.

Originally posted by LS
That Aleema, a relative weakling, was capable of replicating Sadow's feat to a FAR greater extent....it casts some doubts on the power behind it

On the power behind it, sure. On the technique? Not really. It could only be used by someone who had a working knowledge of Sith sorcery, which was how that particular weapon on the ship worked. Aleema couldn't do so herself - she had to be trained by Exar Kun and shown how. And he possessed all of Freedon Nadd's knowledge, who possessed all of Naga Sadow's knowledge. So...

I liked Taven's post. A few quick points:

Originally posted by Taven
He was capable of resisting one of the deadliest poisons in the Galaxy (something that the dark side is explicitly stated to not be very effective at), and this after having been unaware that it was in his body for most of the time until it began to maximise on its deadly effect.

Not only that, but having taken a triple dose of it. However, although the Force allowed him to resist its affects, he would still have died if not for Caleb's assistance. I will grant, though, that he states if he had caught it sooner that wouldn't have been the case.

Originally posted by Taven
the ability to use it on the subatomic level, a level of control that's completely unprecedented and surpasses that of any other by about ten miles.

To be fair, I got the impression that anyone who created a Sith holocron had to be able to manipulate the crystals at the subatomic level. That could also be true in the design of modern lightsabers and their use of synthetic crystals opposed to organic ones.