Project Holocron

Started by DarkSerpent51 pages

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Alright your point about the sun crusher is granted I just read about it, though that ship merely fires a torpedo into the core of a star, where as Sadow is clearly shown to manipulate force energies to blow up the star, look here.
This thread is about the force, not torpedos or laser cannons.

@ LS Yes aleema could do it also, Im not disputing that Sadow had help in blowing up the star. My original point was that if the ancient sith were capable of designing technology to aid in such feats, they obviously had a tremendous knowledge of the force.

Sadow's ship was a superweapon that Kun had modified to cause a chain reaction, Aleema had no idea the chain reaction was going to occur.

If I remember correctly, it was setup to kill her in retaliation for betraying Ulic.

Also, it provided what Exar needed to cherry pick and plunder Ossus.

It has been confirmed that Sadow used the ship to do this.

The thing is, the Ancient Sith were extremely adept at using the darkside in their machines and weapons.

I'm not saying that they weren't powerful in there own right, I'm saying that there Alchemy enhanced tech and understanding of darkness is what gave them such power.

Originally posted by Taven
More on topic, Luke has displayed the ability to telepathically contact jedi across the Galaxy at will, with no notable amount of effort required. When has Palpatine demonstrated such mastery?

According to 'Tales from Jabba's Palace' and Mara Jade's 'By the Emperor's Hand,' he can do so any damn time he wishes

And the power that Luke sensed in Dolph, that was compared with Palpatine's, was his developed power. As said, Luke believed Kyp's potential to surpass his own (meaning it at the very least compares, given the vast methods with which Jedi can sense such things), and has demonstrated unaided potency miles above Sidious with far less training, and at a far younger age.

No, dear Nebby. Luke believed Kyo's potential would surpass his own. As we know from Lucas's own statements in regarding Lucas's potential, this is not only incorrect, but Allston clearly said Kyp only believes he is more powerful. They are incomparable. The potency in Dolph was sensed as the most powerful 'since' the emperor-Not more powerful than- an gained by feeding off all the deaths he had caused on Almas.

Your very futile attempts at downplaying Palpatine fail, Nebaris.
As usual.

Originally posted by Taven
[B]Where exactly is that stated? We know that he was "believed" (which begs the question, by whom?) to have mastered nearly all known powers, forgotten ones, and created new ones at his leisure, and we know he studied (studied, not mastered) the Force in all its guises, but where is it explicitly stated that he mastered absolutely all of the knowledge that he possessed?

Palpatine's vast, vast knowledge of the Dark Side has been substantiated and supported not only by the Dark Empire sourcebook, but by Jedi vs. Sith as well. And the complete Visual Guide as well.
I'll just cite Heritage of the Sith again where it calls Palpatine the 'culmination of Sith power and tradition,' as well as that he succeeded where all other Dark Lords had failed in taming the Dark Side and Jedi vs. Sith as well.
It is believed-as in, by history, the galaxy and the narrator- that he has mastered all known and re-existing techniques and develops new ones at his leisure...seems they have a basis for they Nebby-boy. And frankly, it's far more logical than your minimalist attempts

As for your "assessment," it's really not anywhere near as clear cut as you'd like to think.

Translation: OMGOMGOMGOMGBANEBANEBANEBANESIDIOUSSUCKSOMG!
We've heard this song before.

Firstly, knowledge =/= mastery.

It's a good thing Palpatine's mastery is often defined. To 'tame' the Dark Side to your will, one often needs to master it.

It's your knowledge of the Force, and your control over it that defines your mastery over it.

See above

His studies in and knowledge of the Force, as I've almost always acknowledged, is certainly more encompassing than that of anyone else in the mythos, but his control of the Force hasn't shown to even come close to some of the other characters in the mythos.

And considering he, alone in that all other Dark Lords failed, has tamed the Dark Side...it implies substantial mastery

Darth Bane for one, displayed the ability to fill up a room capable of housing hundreds of students with a storm of force lightning with a single burst of energy, all while still a Sith initiate, and not an hour after having learnt the technique in the first place (a display of mastery with the technique that rivals Palpatine's best showing after decades of growth and refinement with it).

Palpatine's 'best showing' with lightning killed well over a hundred people instantly-in a controlled display- with no apparent effort or anything resembling exertion.
As we are all well aware, Bane's learning potential is great as befits such a terrible Gary Stu, blah blah blah.
Unless you can show me the exact moment when Palpatine learned force lightning and that his was weaker than Bane? Shut up.

He's shown himself capable of energy absorption throughout all part of his body rather than just his hands (such as his face and back), the ability to store it for long durations of time and protect his internal organs from it, and the ability to redirect it across an entire planet (which would require that he be able to sense out the landscape across the planet with the Force in the first place).

As I suspected, a thinly disguised Bane humping post.
Considering Nejja Halcyon is able to doing the same thing-when he's already been run through the chest- I'm somewhat less than impressed.

His telepathic resistance is of such a high level that Kaan's manipulations -- which were capable of keeping the entire BoD under control, which included multiple notably powerful Sith Lords such as Kas'im, Quordis, Kopekz, and Seviss Vaa -- "had no more effect than a rusted knife scraping against the hide plates of a Halurian ice-boar."

Dishonesty.
Mind tricks have seldom been shown to work on Force Users. PERIOD. Nothing indicates Kaan has used a mind trick to any potency on his fellow members of the Brotherhood. Oftentimes, he appealed to their vanity and anger, something not even requiring the Force. It might've helped a bit when Kopecz was openly insubordinate. the only instance when Kaan made a simple nudge to make Kas'im a little angrier. This isn't a mind trick, it's fanning the flames and it's incredibly basic stuff as even Johun Othone was able to use it
Frankly, it would've nullified the very need to surrender his power in the first place.
Anakin's ability to manipulate Durge's mind-when Gen'Dai are supposed to be uniformly immune to mind tricks- when powerful Jedi had failed to do anything but make him laugh out loud is far more impressive a control than any Kaan has ever shown.


He was capable of resisting one of the deadliest poisons in the Galaxy (something that the dark side is explicitly stated to not be very effective at), and this after having been unaware that it was in his body for most of the time until it began to maximise on its deadly effect.

The Force is often used to hold and nullify poisons. Luke Skywalker, just days after The Second Death Star was also able to hold back one of the deadliest poisons at bay.
And nullify it completely in his system.
And according to Bane: Poison shouldn't be able to harm a Dark Lord, yet it nearly killed me.
Why? "The Dark Side is spread too thin,"

When faced with eight Sith Umbaraan Assassins who had trained their entire lives to use the Force to shield themselves in it, he showed himself capable of completely revealing there presences with a single wave of intangible dark side energy.

You mean a SITH LORD was able to sense Umbaran Shadow Assassins, people who pale in comparison to Jedi and Sith?
Nevermind how Bane only survived thanks to his special shirt of +5 author's darling nonsense.
This is more impressive than Traya's killing the Sith assassins how?

His mastery as a seer is so great that he can see "far into the future," and he can apparently do this at will whereas all other seers in the mythos have only ever had visions come to them in situations beyond their control.

Let's have this shown to us now. Again...Traya. And Palpatine, too. Both were able to see 'far into the future.'
Problem? The future is always in motion. You can only see possible events and manipulate them.
Hell, MERILI could see into the future with more potency than Bane

And most notable, of course, is his telekinesis, which had shown itself capable of absolutely crushing the likes of the highly ranked and powerful Quordis, breaking through his defences "as if they weren't there,"

Qordis's feats and power, please.

the ability to affect vast areas of landscape with simply force pushes, and eight years into his career, five years before his current state at the end of Ro2, the ability to use it on the subatomic level, a level of control that's completely unprecedented and surpasses that of any other by about ten miles.[/Quote[
Quantify this one. Cite it, too. Luke, in the Hambly novels is able to use it to such a degree on Tsilis to speak to the crystals. And Sith alchemy kind of, you know, FOCUSES on using the Force on a subatomic level to take something and get something else.
And affect vast areas of landscape. Like Yoda, Luke and Palpatine do?
[Quote]
His mastery has certainly shown itself to be greater and wider encompassing than Palpatine's (he's displayed mastery in energy channelling, Force defence, telepathic resistance, Force sensing, precognition, telekinesis, Force lightning, resisting poisons; and the ability to use the Force on the subatomic scale, and channel it across entire planets) and if you want to get back to Force knowledge, which is only half of the puzzle anyway (if that), he possesses all of Revan's knowledge via his holocron (which surpassed all of the teachings in the Korriban archives, and possessed both knowledge in the dark side and light side), and had soon learnt all of it (as directly stated), as well as that of Freedon Nadd, which contained all of Sadow's knowledge, with which he had even longer time to learn from. While he's had far less time to learn from such knowledge than Palpatine has, his improvement rate has shown itself to be astronomically greater than that of anyone else, as demonstrated with his early lightning display, as well as with the above mentioned time it took him to learn the entirety of Revan's holocron.

Oh, please, grow up. Palpatine has not only demonstrated almost all of those, but his knowledge base is far greater anyways. He has Bane's knowledge from his Holocron, Andeddu's, Nihilus's, the Telos Holocron, Adas's Holocron, Sadow's knowledge, has direct access to the living spirits of the Long dead Sith Lords whom he learned 'forgotten secrets' from,, as well as numerous other Sith Holocrons looted from the Jedi Temple, Jedi holocrons whose secrets he 'plundered,' and he was the only one born in over a thousand years with the power to restore the Sith as well as being the 'Culmination of thousands of years of Sith Power and Tradition' according to Heritage of the Sith,
Never mind that he has been directly stated to have fully mastered and tamed the Dark Side, but Bane's entire Order's philosophy fully focused on finding apprentices whose potential could exceed your own. In essence? Growing stronger. Rising in power until one would return them to glory.
Guess what, Nebaris, you've got two options:
Either that succeeded and after Bane's Death, they grew more and more powerful to the culmination in Palpatine who would have chosen Anakin
Orrrr....Bane was a miserable failure whose Order's vaunted power lasted not at all to the point where he failed in every conceivable way.
Either way, you're eating your words.


Palpatine on the other hand hasn't shown mastery anywhere near as widely encompassing as Bane,

Lie. Bane has never demonstrated the power to rend the fabric of time and space.

his control hasn't even come within lightyears, and he's only ever demonstrated the ability to use the Force over such distances with the aid of Sith focusing crystals and the like, such as in Sithisis (which would imply that he relied on such devices).

Absolute lie. Sithisis was a specific ritual requiring the spirits of the Dark side. What specific focusing crystals did he used to transport Luke with the Force Storm? Or when he fed on the inhabitants of Byss?
Reliant of such devices...you have some gall when your pwecious Baneykins couldn't do **** without the Faceless Wonder and would be filleted six ways to sunday without a special coat of orbalisks and plot protection

His knowledge base is certainly far greater, in many ways, but unlike Bane, his exact magnitude of knowledge hasn't in any way been defined at all, and he certainly can't be said to have ever been able to learn an entire holocron's worth of knowledge, let alone one the size of Revan's.

Lie. Palpatine has been described as having fully mastered the knowledge in his possession. And again, 'tamed the Dark Side.'
It is believed he has mastered every known and unknown technique as well. ***** and squeal about hyperbole-and some of that clearly is- but guess what, kiddiwinks? That screams bounds about his knowledge.
Again...pathetic attempts at minimalism

Conclusion: Bane has demonstrated the unaided ability to channel the Force with a range that Palpatine has never himself demonstrated,

Lie.

control that eclipses that of any other display by miles, wider encompassing mastery (in areas such as foresight -- which Palpatine was explicitly stated to be useless at;

Same Palpatine who was able to forsee enough into the future decades in advance to put his plan into motion and was able to foresee the possible future of him ruling over everything for millenia?
Did Baney see his precious order splintering into a bunch of petty weaklings, which according to you is what happened? Did he see it being wiped out by the Chosen one? No? Ok then.

the reason why he relied on the Prophets of the dark side -- and obscure areas such as telepathic resistance),

Uh, no, he snatched up the Prophets because he wanted the control of all the former Sith Cults and they were extremely useful in taking care of the details while Palpatine was able to deal with increasing his power.
What's next...Kadann>Palpatine?

and while his knowledge base certainly doesn't compare, it's extremely formidable in its own right,

And Palpatine had all of it, big deal

of knowledge he's learned from his sources can be properly defined.

Really? Can't recall where Baneykins mastered Belia or Nadd's stuff. Maybe Revan's was just the special ed Holocron.
Given the stupidity Bane constantly shows through the books, that'd be more logical.

By virtue of existing information, Bane possesses the superior mastery of the Force, and by no small margin. [/B]

Ladies and gentlemen...Nebaris's latest round of Bane love and idiocy.
Disproven heartily by yours truly. In fact, why don't we just hit him with the quotes explicitly stating Palpatine is the most powerful so he runs off in tears?

Originally posted by Enyalus

On the power behind it, sure. On the technique? Not really. It could only be used by someone who had a working knowledge of Sith sorcery, which was how that particular weapon on the ship worked. Aleema couldn't do so herself - she had to be trained by Exar Kun and shown how. And he possessed all of Freedon Nadd's knowledge, who possessed all of Naga Sadow's knowledge. So...

I liked Taven's post. A few quick points:

Not only that, but having taken a triple dose of it. However, although the Force allowed him to resist its affects, he would still have died if not for Caleb's assistance. I will grant, though, that he states if he had caught it sooner that wouldn't have been the case.


Note also: he'd have died much quicker if not for killing the family and drinking off their despair.
Something all Dark Siders can do

To be fair, I got the impression that anyone who created a Sith holocron had to be able to manipulate the crystals at the subatomic level. That could also be true in the design of modern lightsabers and their use of synthetic crystals opposed to organic ones. [/B]


You'd probably be correct...it indicates that's just common Holocron making

On further research....wow. EVERY Sith Holocron needs precise alterations and alignments on a subatomic level!
This means...Nihilus, Andeddu, Nadd, Bane, Adas, The Rakata, Vodo Siosk Baas, Bodo Baas, Arca Jeth, Yoda and Palpatine himself were all capable of this by virtue of having or altering Holocrons.

Natural crystals of red color could be found on Dantooine

To echo Gideon's words:

First, I would like to reiterate that Project Holocron is for discussion primarily; this is supposed to be a true meeting of the minds... civil and professional debates only.

Anyone and everyone who knows me well knows one thing, and that is that I do not tolerate rule breaking. You will post civilly, or you will leave. Are we understood?

And I believe DarkSerpent has said all there is to say. Nicely done DS, you addressed the entirety of Lightsnake's ramblings quite thoroughly.

That's all the civility you deserve. Frankly, when it comes to mature, rational discussions here, many would attest that you lost the privilege. How many times were you banned?

You want to earn it back, be our guest. You can stop your inane ramblings when they've been proven wrong many times and realize few people have any problem putting Bane on a solid high tier-not enough for you, of course, he needs to be TEH BESTEST EVER!

And DarkSerpent's saying there are natural red crystals means...what to my post, exactly?

To address the issue of whether subatomic alterations are a prerequisite for the creation of any Sith holocron:

Star Wars: Darth Bane: Rule of Two, Page 136:

"The matrix had to fall within highly exacting specifications, and Bane had spent hundreds of hours making thousands of precise, subatomic alterations through the Power of the Force to ensure that each crystalline strand was properly in place."

So here we have it that the Matrix had to fall within very precise specifications, however nowhere is it stated that the subatomic alterations were an absolute requirement. They were stated to have ensured that the matrix fell within those precise specifications, nowhere was it stated that they were needed. So, no, as it stand, Darth Bane is the only known Force User who can be said to possess that level of control, and it has all other displays beaten by lightyears. Nice research though Liesnake.

Belia Darzu later elaborates is cannot be rushed and requires these specifications.

In effect, Bane is attempting to manipulate it to that end and failing. I'm curious...how, exactly, is he able to do this to ATTEMPT to create a Holocron when numerous other Sith Lords are able to make these adjustments-and the only way one can is at a sub-atomic level- and have succeeded?

So...Bane uses these alterations and initially fails until he discovers Belia's Holocron. I'm curious...how did any Sith Lord of the past succesfully create a Holocron WITHOUT manipulating it the same way? It elaborates the requirements are highly specific and in no way could they be created any other way. Belia even says you need to spend weeks or even months at it and Bane had spent 'hundreds' of hours making those adjustments.

Go on. Explain another way to do it. I'm waiting.

To argue that sub atomic alterations aren't 'necessary' when it needs to be pitch perfect on ever level or else it collapses? Sorry, Nebaris, but this is folly

Lying again, are we?

Page 263:

"The process of creating a holocron cannot be rushed," the gatekeeper explained. "The adjustments to the matrix must be made with precision and care."

Nowhere is it stated that it needs to be "pitch perfect" or it collapses.

What the heck does that TELL you? Sith rituals never allow for the slightest flaw. Why do you think Bane's first three attempts blew up on him or the Ritual of Commencement failed? It wasn't perfect. Period.

Are you seriously trying to argue that you can make a Holocron without everything being perfect? Why do you think only the most powerful Dark Lords can create them?

need i point out, as gideon surely will, WE AREN'T talking about BANE???? What the heck is wrong with you nebaris? nothing personal, i've got nothing against you, i really don't, but WHY do you ALWAYS turn EVERYTHING into a discussion about Bane? you made some good points about him, but we CLEARLY WEREN'T talking about bane...

and lightsnake, YOU KNOW BETTER THAN TO ARGUE WITH HIM!!!! WHY? okay.... i'm done.

EVERYTHING in Star Wars relates to Bane TrueJedi.

The Death Star blew up Yavin? Bane could do it faster. With fewer survivors.
Bane eats Mando Iron flakes for breakfast, his penis can shatter durasteel BEFORE the Orbalisks, his shaven head can reflect the sun to blind an army. The reason the Army of Light had survivors? Bane happened to be a bit tired that day.

Bane TOTALLY shot first.

lol 😄 😄

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Belia even says you need to spend weeks or even months at it and Bane had spent 'hundreds' of hours making those adjustments.
I'm fairly sure every other Sith Lord attempting to make a Holocron didn't have to deal with the frequent bursts of rage and frustration brought on by the orbalisks -- which almost pushed Bane to annihilate Zannah, and at least once made him tear apart their camp -- while also setting up a vast intergalactic network of contacts and organizing plans that wouldn't manifest themselves for decades.

Your blatant hatred for Bane aside, the quality of your arguments always goes down the drain when dealing with Nebaris, and frankly only makes you look bad. Relax.

Now, seriously, you people need to get on-topic and finish up Palpatine.

Originally posted by Faunus
I'm fairly sure every other Sith Lord attempting to make a Holocron didn't have to deal with the frequent bursts of rage and frustration brought on by the orbalisks -- which almost pushed Bane to annihilate Zannah, and at least once made him tear apart their camp -- while also setting up a vast intergalactic network of contacts and organizing plans that wouldn't manifest themselves for decades.

Your blatant hatred for Bane aside, the quality of your arguments always goes down the drain when dealing with Nebaris, and frankly only makes you look bad. Relax.

Now, seriously, you people need to get on-topic and finish up Palpatine.

Bane was making it wrong too, don't forget that. It wasn't that it was so hard. It was that he was doing it wrong. ( i never heard about sidious making them wrong, to try to steer the conversation back that way.) so bane is the worst holocron making sith ever!!!

This is going to leech a great deal of my time, I can tell. Faunus, why don't you be a good sport and start helping out with the heavy lifting?

Nebaris, let us make things explicitly clear: Project Holocron is not the place for flame wars or flame baiting. If you wish to participate (which is odd -- since you weren't invited), you may do so, but you will not -- in any way, shape, form, or thought -- attempt to disrupt this process by filling this thread with attempts to spite Lightsnake. Furthermore, you will subscribe to our ideology regarding Publius's methodology. It is how we come to our conclusions. Am I clear?