Project Holocron

'Serious danger?' He's borderline invincible at that point with the Dark Side.

Originally posted by Enyalus
He overloads the crystal with his will, yes. He needed to be holding her blade to do so, though. Also, Vader's really the master at TK and mental Force powers. Whose potential might, according to the Emperor, still be greater than his own, despite the suit.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
'Serious danger?' He's borderline invincible at that point with the Dark Side.

*sigh* Which is why he gets beaten and has his hand cut off by Luke? Who by your logic, would also be borderline invincible at that point, seeing as how he was also an avatar of the Force?

Yes. Serious danger of having that particular body destroyed.

Wait. Who was supposed to be after Vader?

I don't think we decided. You suggested "Luke - Palpatine - Vader."

Personally I'd like to examine the ancient sith

I said Exar/Ancients and Nihilus, too.

Meh, whatever. Don't really care.

Originally posted by Enyalus
*sigh* Which is why he gets beaten and has his hand cut off by Luke? Who by your logic, would also be borderline invincible at that point, seeing as how he was also an avatar of the Force?

Yes. Serious danger of having that particular body destroyed.

AFTER that. When he flips out, throws open the floodgates and unleashes the storm.
I said earlier, avatar states were done the moment Palpatine lost the hand. If Luke could have ended it by leaping forward and killing Palpatine once and for all rather than joining with Leia and using the whole of the Force to sever Palpatine from the Dark Side, it'd have gone differently

And yes, let's go to the Ancients and Exar

Very good, then. I'm about to beat TFU again, and when I get done, I'll address some other arguments on the versus forum. But let's commence with the final assessments of Vader.

anybody else have any more final assessments of vader? there have been a few posted, but they keep getting lost in pages of DE Sidious arguments.

the only things i can remember from the vader assessments are

1.he's awesome with TK
2.He can break through force shields rather easily (like he did with rahm kota)
3. he beat the resurrected Darth maul

so what is everyones conclusion of vader?

He's a better Force-user than his younger, more "wholesome" self, but that incarnation would kick his ass in a duel. Luke Skywalker managed to fight him on even terms - although Vader was holding back his Force-powers - so the vastly more skilled Anakin would just do bad things to him.

Also, he isn't top-tier material. Galen Marek, for one, is a firm cut above him in Force-ability despite his young age, and then there's the whole list of Sith Lords that Crimzon listed, plus whatever Jedi there are that could take him.

Originally posted by Faunus

Also, he isn't top-tier material. Galen Marek, for one, is a firm cut above him in Force-ability despite his young age, and then there's the whole list of Sith Lords that Crimzon listed, plus whatever Jedi there are that could take him.

Originally posted by Faunus
...and then there's the whole list of Sith Lords that Crimzon listed, plus whatever Jedi there are that could take him.

🙁 That was my list....that Big S disagreed with.

Wait, really?

Can you post it again? I can't find it.

Originally posted by Enyalus
🙁 That was my list....that Big S disagreed with.

Originally posted by Enyalus
That was the closing line of my conclusion regarding Vader. It seems a little ambiguous, so let me clarify:

In combat, Vader is not top tier when we consider other Sith Lords. A short list of Sith who could beat him the majority of the time include:

Darth Caedus
Darth Sidious
Darth Maul
Darth Bane
Lord Kas'im
Darth Nihilus
Darth Traya
Darth Revan
Exar Kun

Any of you looking for reasoning, Maul could have killed him in their duel previously, but was so arrogant he began to taunt him and drop his guard. Kas'im is better at Jar'Kai than Maul is, and his force shields held against a Force Push that shattered the entire foundation of an old temple. Traya can wield four lightsabers at once, which Vader's speed would be unable to counter. And even assuming that Revan's saber skills are not on par (which I believe them to be), his tremendous Force Lightning and Force Storm attacks would annihilate Vader.

Given that, in combat, he's this far down on the list, in my opinion he is not a top tier combatant.

On the upside, he could probably take out the rest of the Brotherhood of Darkness, most if not all of Krayt's Order, and Darth Tyrannus...

force wise i only disagree with maul and kasim, saber wise they pwn him.

Question about Vader: do you think he ever figured out that the Jedi didn't betray the Republic?

He does, and it doesn't taake too long. But by that point he's more or less resigned to his fate.