Project Holocron

Started by Darth Angel51 pages

I agree with most of enlayus list, from sith lords who could beat vader, even though I have some doubts that traya could take him. Personally I don't believe she could attack vader with 4 lightsabers using telekinesis, because simply vader's TK is very good and personally better then traya's one, so he would probably stop all 4 lightsabers and then kick her ass. So it goes to:

Darth Caedus
Darth Sidious
Darth Maul
Darth Bane
Lord Kas'im
Darth Nihilus
Darth Revan
Exar Kun

By the way, I also personally think that dooku could beat vader. Why? While vader may have the force contest advantage (discussable though), I hardly believe that the power gap would be enough to make a difference, and I think that dooku's skill with the lightsaber, who could beat the incredible strong and fast grievous, or even hold off master "the hurricane of destruction" yoda, may in the end come over vader's skill with the saber.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
force wise i only disagree with maul and kasim, saber wise they pwn him.

My list was set for All Out. Combat, pure and simple.

Could add in Starkiller, too.

Originally posted by Darth Angel
I agree with most of enlayus list, from sith lords who could beat vader, even though I have some doubts that traya could take him. Personally I don't believe she could attack vader with 4 lightsabers using telekinesis, because simply vader's TK is very good and personally better then traya's one, so he would probably stop all 4 lightsabers and then kick her ass. So it goes to:

Darth Caedus
Darth Sidious
Darth Maul
Darth Bane
Lord Kas'im
Darth Nihilus
Darth Revan
Exar Kun

By the way, I also personally think that dooku could beat vader. Why? While vader may have the force contest advantage (discussable though), I hardly believe that the power gap would be enough to make a difference, and I think that dooku's skill with the lightsaber, who could beat the incredible strong and fast grievous, or even hold off master "the hurricane of destruction" yoda, may in the end come over vader's skill with the saber.

except for maul we mostly agree (i assume you include nihilus and his force drain)

Shall we open up the Ancient Sith discussion with Ragnos? Or someone with more textual support?

i was thinking lets do yoda. and if you are set on ancient sith, Revan, because he has NO actual support of any kind, and is therefore most in need of definition.

Ah. Yoda would be fun. I say we hold on the Ancient Sith and go for the small green dude instead.

Let's do the other Ancient Sith first. Since Ragnos's power is largely defined on how strong his subordinates are, we might as well define them first so that there is a great foundation for him.

As far as the ancient sith are concerned, it's a bit of a toss up. On one hand I want to say that they appear, to me anyway, to be far more interested in the arcane aspects of the force. That is to say the use of sith alchemy and dark side rituals in particular. that being said the ancient sith we see really don't come off as being particularly dangerous combatants. I mean haven't we always said the the most amazing thing we've ever seen an ancient sith do on their own is throw a brick?

On the other hand however, the knowledge they possessed is sought after by sith thousands of years after their death. And anyone lucky enough to get their hands on one of their holocrons is usually rewarded with great power that can be directly attributed to said holocron.

what I'm left with is this, obviously the Ancient sith were powerful and knowledgeable in the dark side of the force in all it's facets. However, I also believe that the most powerful of the race were far less interested in one on one combat and thus aren't necessarily as dangerous an opponent as some later, more martial sith, would be.

I agree with Enyalus. Let's deal with Yoda.

Ancients Sith are fine with me: Gideon's thread.

Originally posted by Pwned61
As far as the ancient sith are concerned, it's a bit of a toss up. On one hand I want to say that they appear, to me anyway, to be far more interested in the arcane aspects of the force. That is to say the use of sith alchemy and dark side rituals in particular. that being said the ancient sith we see really don't come off as being particularly dangerous combatants. I mean haven't we always said the the most amazing thing we've ever seen an ancient sith do on their own is throw a brick?

On the other hand however, the knowledge they possessed is sought after by sith thousands of years after their death. And anyone lucky enough to get their hands on one of their holocrons is usually rewarded with great power that can be directly attributed to said holocron.

what I'm left with is this, obviously the Ancient sith were powerful and knowledgeable in the dark side of the force in all it's facets. However, I also believe that the most powerful of the race were far less interested in one on one combat and thus aren't necessarily as dangerous an opponent as some later, more martial sith, would be.

Palpatine may have known techniques and stuff, but most of his knowledge he LEARNED.

The Ancients INVENTED, and they had a FAR greater UNDERSTANDING of the force itself.

Originally posted by Pwned61
As far as the ancient sith are concerned, it's a bit of a toss up. On one hand I want to say that they appear, to me anyway, to be far more interested in the arcane aspects of the force. That is to say the use of sith alchemy and dark side rituals in particular. that being said the ancient sith we see really don't come off as being particularly dangerous combatants. I mean haven't we always said the the most amazing thing we've ever seen an ancient sith do on their own is throw a brick?

On the other hand however, the knowledge they possessed is sought after by sith thousands of years after their death. And anyone lucky enough to get their hands on one of their holocrons is usually rewarded with great power that can be directly attributed to said holocron.

what I'm left with is this, obviously the Ancient sith were powerful and knowledgeable in the dark side of the force in all it's facets. However, I also believe that the most powerful of the race were far less interested in one on one combat and thus aren't necessarily as dangerous an opponent as some later, more martial sith, would be.

Well, Naga Sadow's amulet was capable of disintegrating Sith warriors and destroying temples. Ludo Kressh's amulet was capable of destroying a 50+ ft high stone statue with a casual gesture. Ragnos also had a similar amulet, so its potency could be assumed to be about the same. They also wielded Sith Swords, which channels and amplifies one's own power in the Force, designed armor that was lightsaber resistant and gave them strength boosts, etc.

So I think the proper thing to say is that they were fine duelists and/or hand to hand fighters...but perhaps the reason we don't see many TK or Force Lightning feats is because they didn't need to use them - they had amulets that could be even more devastating.

Which means that they had to have a great understanding of the darkside to build and invent such items, something few non-ancients could do.

Originally posted by Pwned61
As far as the ancient sith are concerned, it's a bit of a toss up. On one hand I want to say that they appear, to me anyway, to be far more interested in the arcane aspects of the force. That is to say the use of sith alchemy and dark side rituals in particular. that being said the ancient sith we see really don't come off as being particularly dangerous combatants. I mean haven't we always said the the most amazing thing we've ever seen an ancient sith do on their own is throw a brick?
That would be if one refuses to take the relevant knowledge, feats, and possessions of later beings into account, and extrapolate from those what the ancients should have been capable of.

Take, for example, the usage of Ragnos's staff by Tavion. A relative weakling in the mythos - being possessed and then shortly abandoned by the spirit of the aforementioned Dark Lord actually killed her - she is nonetheless able to knock Force-sensitives into unconsciousness, destroy lightsabers, and collapse large rooms upon themselves. She also manages to drain the tainted energy from temples and at least one Force-nexus, even going so far as to render Hoth barren to the Force-sense of Jaden Korr.

Now, take a look at Ragnos himself. "The most powerful of the most powerful; the Dark Lord of the Sith." Described, IIRC, as possessing "terrifying" power in the Force and immense physical strength, held in the utmost respect and fear by individuals who would at his funeral enter a duel for the throne. Having lived for - at the very least - well over a century, and considering that he had to defeat a Sith who was the reigning ruler and presumably the most powerful man alive at the time, Lord Simus, in personal combat, one can assume that Ragnos would've wielded his own staff and sword to greater effect than Tavion.

On the other hand however, the knowledge they possessed is sought after by sith thousands of years after their death. And anyone lucky enough to get their hands on one of their holocrons is usually rewarded with great power that can be directly attributed to said holocron.
This is the other thing. Aleema Keto was capable of easily creating illusions in the Force that could kill lesser beings. She eventually had her ass handed to her with laughable ease by Exar Kun, who gloated that Nadd had taught him "everything." Kun, by the way, had had a few months on Yavin 4 at best as of that point, and from Naga Sadow's leftover notes and artifacts he'd learned to utterly dominate everyone from Massassi warriors to Aleema Keto to Odan-Urr, never with more than a motion of his hand. His alchemical experiments created massive mutants that could literally slap aside Jedi Knights - the Night Beast was the culmination of these - and he was also apparently responsible for the creation of the dreaded "Jedi-killing" terentatek.

Now, Kun's own prodigious power and affinity for the dark side accounts for his rapid ascent, but the fact that he was capable of doing all the above - ignoring the multitude of other techniques at his disposal - with, in total, not much more than a year of study, says a lot about the quality of Sadow's "teachings." To say that Naga Sadow himself - who was at least seven hundred as of the time of his death - would know far more and be able to apply it more effectively, although a presumed gap in raw power should be accounted for.

what I'm left with is this, obviously the Ancient sith were powerful and knowledgeable in the dark side of the force in all it's facets. However, I also believe that the most powerful of the race were far less interested in one on one combat and thus aren't necessarily as dangerous an opponent as some later, more martial sith, would be.
They were incredibly violent, actually. Ragnos decapitated Simus in personal combat in a bid for the throne, Sadow and Kressh would later fight inconclusively for the same thing, and simple Sith warriors were capable of going toe-to-toe with Jedi Knights.

Erm...Faunus? When was Simus a reigning dark lord? Evidence seems to indicate he was just a rival Sith Lord who Ragnos bested when they dueled to determine who'd ascend the throne.

Originally posted by Faunus
That would be if one refuses to take the relevant knowledge, feats, and possessions of later beings into account, and extrapolate from those what the ancients should have been capable of.

Take, for example, the usage of Ragnos's staff by Tavion. A relative weakling in the mythos - being possessed and then shortly abandoned by the spirit of the aforementioned Dark Lord actually killed her - she is nonetheless able to knock Force-sensitives into unconsciousness, destroy lightsabers, and collapse large rooms upon themselves. She also manages to drain the tainted energy from temples and at least one Force-nexus, even going so far as to render Hoth barren to the Force-sense of Jaden Korr.

Now, take a look at Ragnos himself. "The most powerful of the most powerful; [b]the Dark Lord of the Sith." Described, IIRC, as possessing "terrifying" power in the Force and immense physical strength, held in the utmost respect and fear by individuals who would at his funeral enter a duel for the throne. Having lived for - at the very least - well over a century, and considering that he had to defeat a Sith who was the reigning ruler and presumably the most powerful man alive at the time, Lord Simus, in personal combat, one can assume that Ragnos would've wielded his own staff and sword to greater effect than Tavion. [/B]

Firstly, we talking about the ancient sith as a whole. Ragnos, being the absolute pinnacle of the ancient sith, is hardly the standard by which we should judge the rest. I mean, he made it to the top for a reason. If we used the same flow of logic than one would assume all jedi during the PT era to be skilled in the martial aspects of the force, which we know isn't completely true since the useless form VI was becoming the standard form. Or we could say that all the Sith from Bane's time were committed to the dark side and the teachings of the ancients, when in reality the order was becoming watered down with weaklings being promoted to keep order.

Secondly, I never meant to suggest that the Ancient sith shied away from personal combat, just that they were far more interested in developing their skills in the more arcane applications of the force.

Originally posted by Faunus

This is the other thing. Aleema Keto was capable of easily creating illusions in the Force that could kill lesser beings. She eventually had her ass handed to her with laughable ease by Exar Kun, who gloated that Nadd had taught him "everything." Kun, by the way, had had a few months on Yavin 4 at best as of that point, and from Naga Sadow's leftover notes and artifacts he'd learned to utterly dominate everyone from Massassi warriors to Aleema Keto to Odan-Urr, never with more than a motion of his hand. His alchemical experiments created massive mutants that could literally slap aside Jedi Knights - the Night Beast was the culmination of these - and he was also apparently responsible for the creation of the dreaded "Jedi-killing" terentatek.

Now, Kun's own prodigious power and affinity for the dark side accounts for his rapid ascent, but the fact that he was capable of doing all the above - ignoring the multitude of other techniques at his disposal - with, in total, not much more than a year of study, says a lot about the quality of Sadow's "teachings." To say that Naga Sadow himself - who was at least seven hundred as of the time of his death - would know far more and be able to apply it more effectively, although a presumed gap in raw power should be accounted for.

I don't particularly disagree with anything stated here, though correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Sadow in stasis for much of his 700 year life?

Originally posted by Faunus

They were incredibly violent, actually. Ragnos decapitated Simus in personal combat in a bid for the throne, Sadow and Kressh would later fight inconclusively for the same thing, and simple Sith warriors were capable of going toe-to-toe with Jedi Knights.

I never said that the race wasn't violent, and I'm not saying they didn't fight one another, just that they were less concerned with their personal combat techniques than they were with creating the latest alchemical monstrosity.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Erm...Faunus? When was Simus a reigning dark lord? Evidence seems to indicate he was just a rival Sith Lord who Ragnos bested when they dueled to determine who'd ascend the throne.
Damn, my mistake.

My memory is failing me.

Originally posted by Faunus
That would be if one refuses to take the relevant knowledge, feats, and possessions of later beings into account, and extrapolate from those what the ancients should have been capable of.

Take, for example, the usage of Ragnos's staff by Tavion. A relative weakling in the mythos - being possessed and then shortly abandoned by the spirit of the aforementioned Dark Lord actually killed her - she is nonetheless able to knock Force-sensitives into unconsciousness, destroy lightsabers, and collapse large rooms upon themselves. She also manages to drain the tainted energy from temples and at least one Force-nexus, even going so far as to render Hoth barren to the Force-sense of Jaden Korr.

Now, take a look at Ragnos himself. "The most powerful of the most powerful; [b]the Dark Lord of the Sith." Described, IIRC, as possessing "terrifying" power in the Force and immense physical strength, held in the utmost respect and fear by individuals who would at his funeral enter a duel for the throne. Having lived for - at the very least - well over a century, and considering that he had to defeat a Sith who was the reigning ruler and presumably the most powerful man alive at the time, Lord Simus, in personal combat, one can assume that Ragnos would've wielded his own staff and sword to greater effect than Tavion.


Simus is never known as the reigning ruler. He was just a contender to the throne like Marka was. We know Marka had to launch a series of short campaigns to unite the Empire and kept rule via extreme cleverness coupled with iron handed tyranny.

This is the other thing. Aleema Keto was capable of easily creating illusions in the Force that could kill lesser beings.

didn't they just go into shock?

She eventually had her ass handed to her with laughable ease by Exar Kun, who gloated that Nadd had taught him "everything." Kun, by the way, had had a few months on Yavin 4 at best as of that point, and from Naga Sadow's leftover notes and artifacts he'd learned to utterly dominate everyone from Massassi warriors to Aleema Keto to Odan-Urr, never with more than a motion of his hand. His alchemical experiments created massive mutants that could literally slap aside Jedi Knights - the Night Beast was the culmination of these - and he was also apparently responsible for the creation of the dreaded "Jedi-killing" terentatek.

Yep, Kun was one heck of an alchemical prodigy. Don't forget he also had access to a Holocron of the Jedi Exiles, though, according to Jedi vs. Sith

Now, Kun's own prodigious power and affinity for the dark side accounts for his rapid ascent, but the fact that he was capable of doing all the above - ignoring the multitude of other techniques at his disposal - with, in total, not much more than a year of study, says a lot about the quality of Sadow's "teachings." To say that Naga Sadow himself - who was at least seven hundred as of the time of his death - would know far more and be able to apply it more effectively, although a presumed gap in raw power should be accounted for.

Don't forget, Naga spent a large chunk of them after having frozen himself in suspended animation until Nadd woke him up. While Naga's knowledge is not in question, it is entirely possibly Kun is the more powerful and effective of the two, given lack of given showings from Naga

They were incredibly violent, actually. Ragnos decapitated Simus in personal combat in a bid for the throne, Sadow and Kressh would later fight inconclusively for the same thing, and simple Sith warriors were capable of going toe-to-toe with Jedi Knights. [/B]

I wouldn't go this far. The worst we see seems to be the ceremonial duel for Dark Lord. When Simus is killed, the Sith are GRIEVING, with one calling the Republic's people 'monsters' for his death. With the exception of Marka's 'short campaigns' to become Dark Lord and the occasional mention of duels for rulership, it seems the Order flourished rather peacefully. And when were the simple Sith warriors capable of going toe to toe with Jedi Knights? On their own, when Naga's concentration was broken, they were destroyed on Kirrek and Cinnagar, which hardly had any Jedi fighting-none of Cinnagar, discounting Jori Daragon. On Coruscant? A grand total of four Jedi are fighting against the Sith. And let's not forget the deaths to the Massassi. One could say they were taken by surprise, but in Golden Age?
Dor Gal Ram is see against the wall screaming "but you're my servants! My slaves! TRAITORS!"

why he isn't actively fighting back for his life, and Dor looks very much the part of a warrior, is beyond me there.

Originally posted by Faunus
Damn, my mistake.

My memory is failing me.

Well, to be fair, it doesn't really take away from the point you were trying to make

Originally posted by Pwned61
Firstly, we talking about the ancient sith as a whole. Ragnos, being the absolute pinnacle of the ancient sith, is hardly the standard by which we should judge the rest. I mean, he made it to the top for a reason. If we used the same flow of logic than one would assume all jedi during the PT era to be skilled in the martial aspects of the force, which we know isn't completely true since the useless form VI was becoming the standard form. Or we could say that all the Sith from Bane's time were committed to the dark side and the teachings of the ancients, when in reality the order was becoming watered down with weaklings being promoted to keep order.
I think you misunderstood me completely. I'm not using Ragnos himself as a measure of the power of all his kind, but as Gideon said, we have to determine his power through the showings of his subordinates. The benefactors of the ancients' discoveries, when circumstances are considered, can be used in such a manner as well. I'm treating this as a way to gauge the relative power of Ragnos and the other prominent ancient Sith, not the rabble that served them.

Secondly, I never meant to suggest that the Ancient sith shied away from personal combat, just that they were far more interested in developing their skills in the more arcane applications of the force.
That's a very vague statement. "They" would be the more learned of the race - perhaps the scholars and alchemists. The Sith weren't a group of librarians and scientists, they were brutes and warriors. The strongest and smartest ruled them, and Ragnos held his empire by pitting contenders against one another.

I don't particularly disagree with anything stated here, though correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Sadow in stasis for much of his 700 year life?
Don't think so; I don't remember when he was stated to have been in stasis to begin with, and we know that he did a lot on Yavin.

I could easily be mistaken, though.

I never said that the race wasn't violent, and I'm not saying they didn't fight one another, just that they were less concerned with their personal combat techniques than they were with creating the latest alchemical monstrosity.
How do you think the DLotS was chosen? The contenders would battle for supremacy - Ragnos vs. Simus, Sadow vs. Kressh, etc.

And again, are you referring to the ancients as a whole, or simply the more prominent (stronger, smarter) ones?