The Joker Vs. The Punisher

For all the people who constantly say that the Joker is only considered a dangerous villain because Batman refuses to kill him, you might want to note that this goes both ways; the Joker doesn't want to kill Batman, either, and passed up several opportunities to do it. Therefore, it's not a one-sided deal; due to their odd, symbiotic sort of relationship, neither wants to kill the others. This is also why the Joker, obsessed with Batman, likes to play around with him attempting to drive him nuts; it was more than once that either luck or the Joker's unwillingness saved Batman.

In addition, the Joker has no special emotions towards the Punisher; he will not play around with him and toy him. The Joker is EXTREMELY intelligent, and I find it extremely unlikely that Frank can just sneak in somewhere and shoot him without the Joker finding out somehow; not saying that can't happen, because if the Punisher jumps him and snipes him, the Joker will die; but that's equivalent to a one-sided prep match, which this is not.

However, if this is a prep fight (two-sided), the Joker can take this. He's smarter than Frank, and is more than likely to be able to get him inside a trap and proceed to own him using Joker Venom, a gun, or some other form of elaborate weapon.

An arena match? Well, if both have their regular weapons- the Joker with his guns, knives, and gadgets, and Frank with his guns and other skills, I suppose Frank can take it a long range; he's a better shot than the Joker and also has the advantage of body armor. The Joker, however, has incredible pain tolerance; in his proper form, he can laugh and shrug off basic pain. If they close in, though, Frank's life just gets a whole lot more miserable. Not saying that the Joker is necessarily going to take this, but Frank- while a skilled hand-to-hand combatant- isn't as good as Batman in that department. The Joker had, on several occasions, used bursts of strength in combat (his insanity grants him occasional somewhat superhuman strength while in combat), and Batman has- more than once- commented on the Joker's speed, and he is clearly depicted to be agile. His weaponry is very effective- joy buzzer, for example, can be lethal in close-ranged combat, and his acid-squirting flower can damage Frank. Joker Venom can also come into effect.

Conclusion? Both are very skilled. Frank can take a one-sided prep match, like FascistCrusader says by simply sniping the Joker, the Joker can take a two-sided prep fight, and an arena fight is more interesting to analyze.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

In addition, the Joker has no special emotions towards the Punisher; he will not play around with him and toy him. The Joker is EXTREMELY intelligent, and I find it extremely unlikely that Frank can just sneak in somewhere and shoot him without the Joker finding out somehow; not saying that can't happen, because if the Punisher jumps him and snipes him, the Joker will die; but that's equivalent to a one-sided prep match, which this is not.

The Joker though does like to mess with people in genera regardless of wether its Batman. If he knows pun is trying to kill him and he could mess with his head im not sure if he will pass up the opportunity.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

However, if this is a prep fight (two-sided), the Joker can take this. He's smarter than Frank, and is more than likely to be able to get him inside a trap and proceed to own him using Joker Venom, a gun, or some other form of elaborate weapon.

In a crossover Pun esacped all of Jokers traps. Pun has also been ale to detect traps just from experience, hell theres even an eaxmple of Frank detecting the same type trap which Batman failed to see in The Killing Joke.

Joker maybe be 'smarter' than Frank but that doesn't neccesarily means hes going to win. Frank has survived assasination attempts from smarter people.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
The Joker though does like to mess with people in genera regardless of wether its Batman. If he knows pun is trying to kill him and he could mess with his head im not sure if he will pass up the opportunity.

And the Joker is known to mess with people's heads when they aren't familiar to him when? If he knew something about the Punisher, he would've taunted him about something; he doesn't, though, because if he does, it just automatically gives him more motive to just shoot Punisher in the back of the head, because he should know Frank wants to kill him. The Joker isn't stupid, and while he may be unafraid of death, he certainly doesn't want to die.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
In a crossover Pun esacped all of Jokers traps. Pun has also been ale to detect traps just from experience, hell theres even an eaxmple of Frank detecting the same type trap which Batman failed to see in The Killing Joke.

Joker maybe be 'smarter' than Frank but that doesn't neccesarily means hes going to win. Frank has survived assasination attempts from smarter people.

Hey, I heard the Joker owned Carnage with a crowbar in a crossover (I didn't read it, but that's what I heard). Is THAT canon?

... exactly. Crossovers =/= canon.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
And the Joker is known to mess with people's heads when they aren't familiar to him when?

Well he seemed to get a kick out of tormenting the mayor when he kidnapped him. In Arkham asylum he decided to play a game with an inmate instead of killing him. Its not exactly out of character for him to play games with Franks mind if he could get away with it.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

If he knew something about the Punisher, he would've taunted him about something; he doesn't, though, because if he does, it just automatically gives him more motive to just shoot Punisher in the back of the head, because he should know Frank wants to kill him. The Joker isn't stupid, and while he may be unafraid of death, he certainly doesn't want to die.

He gets basic knowledge of Frank. Hes not going to shoot Frank in the back of the head Frank has deteced sniper fire many times and his awarness on one ocassion was good that he was just able to detect that asniper was there with no physical signs giving him away.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

Hey, I heard the Joker owned Carnage with a crowbar in a crossover (I didn't read it, but that's what I heard). Is THAT canon?

... exactly. Crossovers =/= canon.

Im aware that its not canon but if the characters are wriiten reasonably consistent to the way they are in the mainstream its not wrong to use it.

Punisher detected a trap that Batman has failed to see and he was able to detect traps by a guy who was so good he was able to get past Kingpins security. Jokers traps are not soo compliacted that he can't get out of them, so the crossover was not written inconsistently.

Thank you Master Crimzon... I pretty much cosign what you said.

Joker has killed as many if not more than Punisher, and has done it without a care. When it comes down to people like Jim Gordon, Batman, etc., he keeps them alive because he needs them to exist.

Punisher? Joker doesn't give a damn.

Anyways, Joker wins.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Well he seemed to get a kick out of tormenting the mayor when he kidnapped him. In Arkham asylum he decided to play a game with an inmate instead of killing him. Its not exactly out of character for him to play games with Franks mind if he could get away with it.

The mayor? He's important. Batman, Gordon are important. The inmate is harmless because he's trapped too.

Punisher is just some guy in a costume.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
He gets basic knowledge of Frank. Hes not going to shoot Frank in the back of the head Frank has deteced sniper fire many times and his awarness on one ocassion was good that he was just able to detect that asniper was there with no physical signs giving him away.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Im aware that its not canon but if the characters are wriiten reasonably consistent to the way they are in the mainstream its not wrong to use it.

Punisher detected a trap that Batman has failed to see and he was able to detect traps by a guy who was so good he was able to get past Kingpins security. Jokers traps are not soo compliacted that he can't get out of them, so the crossover was not written inconsistently.

Fail.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Well he seemed to get a kick out of tormenting the mayor when he kidnapped him. In Arkham asylum he decided to play a game with an inmate instead of killing him. Its not exactly out of character for him to play games with Franks mind if he could get away with it.

The Joker isn't about to play games with someone who is a homicidal nutcase and wants to kill him- what will he taunt him about, anyway? He doesn't know anything about Frank's life.

And even if he could, the Joker's traps are still there, and the Joker will want to kill the Punisher. A gunshot to the head while Punisher is being gassed by Joker Venom, maybe?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
He gets basic knowledge of Frank. Hes not going to shoot Frank in the back of the head Frank has deteced sniper fire many times and his awarness on one ocassion was good that he was just able to detect that asniper was there with no physical signs giving him away.

Correct, only that the Joker is not going to stand on top of a building and snipe Frank. That's what FRANK will do to the Joker if it's a one-sided prep fight; the Joker has already owned people intellectually superior to Frank with his traps. Why not hide somewhere, let Frank find him and nail him with a bomb of Joker gas?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Im aware that its not canon but if the characters are wriiten reasonably consistent to the way they are in the mainstream its not wrong to use it.

As far as I can remember, the Joker was begging for his life, while in direct continuity, the Joker was proven to not be afraid of anything.

INCONSISTENCY!

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Punisher detected a trap that Batman has failed to see and he was able to detect traps by a guy who was so good he was able to get past Kingpins security. Jokers traps are not soo compliacted that he can't get out of them, so the crossover was not written inconsistently.

Yeah, see above.

Oh, and you do agree with me about the arena fight, right?

Originally posted by Faux Smurph
In Arkham Asylum: Living Hell, he went around killing everyone whose name was a palindrome without playing mind games with them.

Thats not what he did in Grant Morrisons Arkham Asylum.

Originally posted by Faux Smurph

The mayor? He's important. Batman, Gordon are important. The inmate is harmless because he's trapped too.

Weren't those other inmate that he killed in Living Hell harmless as well, in other words they were harmless in the sense they didn'tknow he was going to kill them? He just did if for kicks.

Originally posted by Faux Smurph

Punisher is just some guy in a costume.

Yes and Joker in general likes to **** with people regardless like he did by making the people of Metroplis bald.

Hes also tried messing with Azreal I don't think Joker had met him before, can't by sure about the exact details because it was discussed via letters in the issue afterwards.

Originally posted by Faux Smurph

Who says it'll be a sniper? He could be gassed with Joker venom. He could be shot. Joker could just blow up the city block that Frank is in.

Of course you know that Frank could blow Joker up as well? You also know that Frank has made a gas mask from scratch? Even if Joker trys to use poision gas Frank can improvise.

Originally posted by Faux Smurph

If Punisher detected a trap that Batman couldn't, the characters were not written reasonably consistent.

Fail.

Im not talking about the crossover. Joker used a trap where there was a floor which had a trap door that revealed spikes underneath it in the Killing Joke. In two other Punisher issues Punisher detected that same trap without even walking over it.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
The Joker isn't about to play games with someone who is a homicidal nutcase and wants to kill him- what will he taunt him about, anyway? He doesn't know anything about Frank's life.

He gets basic knowledge I think people in the Mu know that his family were murdered

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

And even if he could, the Joker's traps are still there, and the Joker will want to kill the Punisher. A gunshot to the head while Punisher is being gassed by Joker Venom, maybe?

Er no, hes deteced traps before and hes improvied a gas mask from nothing.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

Correct, only that the Joker is not going to stand on top of a building and snipe Frank.

Joker has sniped people before so he might try it.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

That's what FRANK will do to the Joker if it's a one-sided prep fight; the Joker has already owned people intellectually superior to Frank with his traps. Why not hide somewhere, let Frank find him and nail him with a bomb of Joker gas?

Frank has beaten assasination attempts from people smarter than Joker. High Evolutinary and Dr Doom.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

As far as I can remember, the Joker was begging for his life, while in direct continuity, the Joker was proven to not be afraid of anything.

INCONSISTENCY!

I agree but punisher esacping Jokers traps are not inconsistent.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

Yeah, see above.

I explained this to smurph

Im not talking about the crossover. Joker used a trap where there was a floor which had a trap door that revealed spikes underneath it in the Killing Joke. In two other Punisher issues Punisher detected that same trap without even walking over it.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

Oh, and you do agree with me about the arena fight, right?

Joker doesnt stand a chance in an arena fight.

Originally posted by Faux Smurph
In Arkham Asylum: Living Hell, he went around killing everyone whose name was a palindrome without playing mind games with them.

The mayor? He's important. Batman, Gordon are important. The inmate is harmless because he's trapped too.

Punisher is just some guy in a costume.

Who says it'll be a sniper? He could be gassed with Joker venom. He could be shot. Joker could just blow up the city block that Frank is in.

If Punisher detected a trap that Batman couldn't, the characters were not written reasonably consistent.

Fail.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Thats not what he did in Grant Morrisons Arkham Asylum.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Weren't those other inmate that he killed in Living Hell harmless as well, in other words they were harmless in the sense they didn'tknow he was going to kill them? He just did if for kicks.

A certified psycho path who can do nothing about it due to the locale so must suffer?

Or ordinary people on the street?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
[QUOTE=11006949]Originally posted by Phantom Zone
[B]Yes and Joker in general likes to **** with people regardless like he did by making the people of Metroplis bald.

Joker didn't kill these people... and therefore he won't kill Punisher? lolz? Do you really need a list of every time he's randomly killed a person?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Of course you know that Frank could blow Joker up as well? You also know that Frank has made a gas mask from scratch? Even if Joker trys to use poision gas Frank can improvise.

I lol'd

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Im not talking about the crossover. Joker used a trap where there was a floor which had a trap door that revealed spikes underneath it in the Killing Joke. In two other Punisher issues Punisher detected that same trap without even walking over it.

If you don't see something green, but then I see something green, my senses are better than yours?

You have no idea if there was a difference in the traps, whether one sagged in or shook at the trap point, how fast one was walking, or hell, what mindset he was in immediately prior to the trap.

"But... this one had spikes... and so did that one!".

Originally posted by Dr Hackenbush

Originally posted by Faux Smurph
<3

you're like the best house mom. Keep the house nice and tidy, and still able to show affection 😮

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
He gets basic knowledge I think people in the Mu know that his family were murdered

Alright. So the Joker can use his uber mind-f*cking powers to mess with Frank's head and THEN kill him, right? Considering that the Joker has pissed off even Batman in the past, I'm sure he could do the same to Castle; you can't think clearly while you're being mind-raped.

There's no proof the Joker would do that if he's in immediate danger, too. To my knowledge, he's never messed with someone who is going to kill him.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Er no, hes deteced traps before and hes improvied a gas mask from nothing.

1. Joker's traps =/= other people's traps, even if they look the same.

2. I believe Joker Venom gets through the skin as well. Too bad for Frankie.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Joker has sniped people before so he might try it.

Why should he do it here?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Frank has beaten assasination attempts from people smarter than Joker. High Evolutinary and Dr Doom.

Dr. Doom is more scientifically intelligent than the Joker; however, the Joker who tricked an omnipotent being into giving him supreme power over the universe (Emperor Joker), successfully caused chaos and actually Joker-ized people like Doomsday, foiled an assassination (ASSASSINATION, as in killing) attempt by Deathstroke and only let him live because the plot gods demanded so, and... need I go on?

The Joker's way of thinking is more out-of-the-box and unpredictable than anyone Punisher's ever fought.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I agree but punisher esacping Jokers traps are not inconsistent.

Traps that fooled Batman, the 'world's greatest detective', who, by feats, is a lot smarter than Castle? Nope.

By the way, if you would like to use The Killing Joke as evidence, you may want to note that in the final fight, not only did the Joker get a solid hit on Batman (who is a far better H2H combatant than the Punisher), he successfully drew a gun on him. Luck- the gun being of the 'silly' variety- saved Batman from a gunshot wound. A nasty gunshot wound.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I explained this to smurph

Sure.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Im not talking about the crossover. Joker used a trap where there was a floor which had a trap door that revealed spikes underneath it in the Killing Joke. In two other Punisher issues Punisher detected that same trap without even walking over it.

Who made the trap? Even if the trap looks the same, it's not necessarily the same one.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Joker doesnt stand a chance in an arena fight.

Alright. Now, look at my argument, read, and elaborate on your opinion. In close-ranged, the Joker certainly has a shot.

Originally posted by Faux Smurph
I know that. These are two different books. It's a little shocking, that you'd have to read more than one Joker-related story to know what I'm talking about, so I'll try to slow down.

Who is Joker more likely to play with?

A certified psycho path who can do nothing about it due to the locale so must suffer?

Or ordinary people on the street?

But he didn't play mind games with them, and they weren't all trying to hunt him down.

Joker didn't kill these people... and therefore he won't kill Punisher? lolz? Do you really need a list of every time he's randomly killed a person?

Punisher's going to blow up a bunch of innocents, eh?

I lol'd

My god, you're moronic.

If you don't see something green, but then I see something green, my senses are better than yours?

You have no idea if there was a difference in the traps, whether one sagged in or shook at the trap point, how fast one was walking, or hell, what mindset he was in immediately prior to the trap.

"But... this one had spikes... and so did that one!".

Anyway Dr Doom has tried to kill him twice and High Evoultinary has tried to kill him. Therefore this does not mean that Joker is going to kill him. I see the flaming and insults have begun as predicted so im going to ignore you. If you cant be civil then just get lost.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Anyway Dr Doom has tried to kill him twice and High Evoultinary has tried to kill him. Therefore this does not mean that Joker is going to kill him. I see the flaming and insults have begun as predicted so im going to ignore you. If you cant be civil then just get lost.

Joker is none of the above.

Joker's gotten through to Lex Luthor as president before.

Twice, to my knowledge.

Punisher is nothing compared to that.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Anyway Dr Doom has tried to kill him twice and High Evoultinary has tried to kill him. Therefore this does not mean that Joker is going to kill him. I see the flaming and insults have begun as predicted so im going to ignore you. If you cant be civil then just get lost.

First off, that's not why you're going to "ignore him". It's because he pretty much has you beat in pretty much every sense of the word. Smurph insults people. It's what most [i]good[i] kmc debaters do. You really can't counter his post at this point, it's why you're post is so dramatically shorter. And yes, he's being civil, his post isn't flaming you like mine is. I'm NOT being civil 😐

Another Joker vs. Punisher thread, eh?

I agree with what Master Crimzon said.
With prep or close combat, Joker takes this.
Without prep or long-range combat, Punisher wins.

Originally posted by occultdestroyer
Another Joker vs. Punisher thread, eh?

I agree with what Master Crimzon said.
With prep or close combat, Joker takes this.
Without prep or long-range combat, Punisher wins.

Ah, thank you.

Originally posted by occultdestroyer
Another Joker vs. Punisher thread, eh?

I agree with what Master Crimzon said.
With prep or close combat, Joker takes this.
Without prep or long-range combat, Punisher wins.

2.) wasn't there a 5 page thread like 2 weeks ago ermm

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